@pseg That result from today puts you at the top of the leader board for Formula Duder S2.

Ugh I really wish I could afford to play this game! I had a sub for a few months but that was before this league was around I think, or at least I didn't know about it, I couldn't really understand the interface so I just did some solo laps and then gave up on it. But man racing with you all sounds fun. I wish more of us were into GT6...

I might be on top of the Formula Duder points right now, but if we started applying top potential scores and drop races, Mouse has a definite advantage. I think it's too early to read anything into my performance.

I've rescheduled GBF1 to run during GBGT's timeslot, and cancelled the Interlagos race, which conflicts with a GBGT race. We'll likely run the remaining races out, but I don't see any situation where that series will attract enough interest to allow it to continue later into the year. It breeds nothing but low attendance and complaining.

Instead, I'll probably pitch a few ideas on the season three survey surrounding draft battles and IndyCar on ovals, among other things.

I'm glad you moved GBF1 to a later time slot. I'm not sure what the complaining is all about, but I'd love to race that car sometime. Why was today's race at 8am? It's Sunday, everyone is supposed to sleep in. I didn't get up until after noon today. I don't even get up at 8 on workdays.

@maxx77: Same time as F1 typically is.

I will totally run GBF1 at a later time on Sundays. I didn't even notice it was AM until I saw it had already past.

Here's updated Points and Calendar including scheduled Friday Night Thunder races.

Now for my thoughts after taking a couple days to cool off. Those races on Saturday were quite upsetting in my opinion. 18 cautions (9 each race) is embarrassing. We're not pro, there's lag, it's a fun league; decent excuses for wrecks. Having said that, there was way too much aggressive driving in each race! Making it 3 wide at every opportunity, diving way low on the backstretch to pass, pinching to defend position... come on. It's super frustrating to lift, lift and lift to avoid a dangerous situation, and then get caught in someone's wreck because they forced through the field early in the race. Do you guys realize we drove 64/130 laps under caution? That's half of each race..

So, venting complete. Not sure if anyone agrees with what I said but that's that. I've enjoyed every draft race we've ever had except those two. I'm all for doing more of them, but we cant drive over half the race under yellow flags.

There absolutely needs to be lucky dogs in these draft races. Give the guys a lap down something to race for, otherwise they have nothing to lose and cause more problems trying to win their laps back (that, or they're just on-track spectators for 45 minutes). Possibly a "rule" of no passing under the line (as NASCAR enforces).

I thought better of doing any "crash recaps" of those races. As entertaining as they could have been, it's best not to display 20 cautions and attach our league name to them.

That's all. :)

Seemed like to me it was a worse situation than running something like the Gen6 at a restrictor plate course. Whoever was leading was much slower than the guy behind him, and pulling out on the high side was like hitting a wall when you pulled even. You mention lifting to avoid a dangerous situation, I venture you had to lift constantly just not to run into the guy in front of you who checked up for the slow leader. If you started at the back of the pack on a restart, you feel like superman until you get near the lead, then all the air comes out of the balloon. I don't know if that's the nature of drafting in cars that are going to be going 120-130 max, but I know it felt way more unworkable than something like, say, the Street Stocks at Charlotte.

@bifflog: Yes I lifted quite often. I thought it wiser to hang behind someone and wait for a safer opportunity to make a move; especially early in the race. I have yet to drive the Gen6 at a plate track, but have done the Late Model and Street Stock at Charlotte; you are correct in that the draft is definitely not as substantial in those cars.

@mouse: It certainly was wiser, and after running in the MX5 race before I subscribed to the same theory early on, especially since you could go from the back the front like a rocketship. But eventually, you feel like racing a little, and even if you made it 2nd or 3rd in line on the bottom, what would start happening is cars would stack and stack on your high side, and then the trouble came. I'm just saying, I think this group races with a lot of sense most of the time and the situations yesterday can mostly be chalked up to a combination of ill-drafting race cars and unfavorable rules, and I'm not sure it really could have been predicted ahead of time either. Seems appropriate to just bury it and learn from it, without worrying too much. For example, I'd still be souped if we decided to run Late Models at Daytona at some point, or something.

@mouse: I was reading your post and just thought "please bring up lucky dogs, please bring up lucky dogs..." for the first three paragraphs. And you did, whoo. I totally agree with you on absolutely everything that you said. With every lapped car having to drop to the back of the field each caution and no chance of having a lucky dog just forces the issue of the lapped cars having to try and overtake the whole field at once. They NEED to get in front, nothing less, second won't do, if they want to stay in the race. I also check all the replays and all the streams and while everyone was screaming at me during the race I was just involved in one direct-car accident (sorry @pseg), one indirect accident (sorry @pseg) and I plead myself guilty to passing under the line (sorry @broncosfan).

I still had fun though, especially fighting back. But speaking of Gen6...lets do that sometime, as a one-off event.

So when the pack got separated a little bit before that last caution, I remember thinking man we all need to line up so we can catch the first half. But that didn't happen, and wouldn't even have worked because you cant push the leader. We should have coordinated a never ending slingshot conga line. :D

@iron1c: Yeah, trying to win your lap back basically puts that person in a all-or-nothing situation, which is dangerous for everyone. It doesn't work. We learned that lesson so next time we can have a cleaner race. I'll admit that I'm also frustrated (probably more than anyone) because I got glitched into the wall and lost 2 laps from towing (eventually 3) when I was trying to be conservative.

By the way, go to the 1 hour mark in @pseg stream of the VinnCo race: it makes me laugh. "GODDAMMIT IRON1C!" "OHHHHHH!" "AHHHHH!" "WHAT HAPPENEND?" :D

@mouse: You seem to be missing the Miata series :(

The most prestigious series I might add, since it's sponsored by VinnCo.

Well, I have a few thoughts on the subject of Saturday's races:

1. Drafting in open-wheel cars is frustrating because the slightest of contact can lead to a multi-car barrel-rolling mess. The outside line will never have a good chance to make a pass for the lead, because the extra distance is too much to overcome without a bump draft from another car.

2. Charlotte is the only free oval that is large, so that's why we use it, but there are some other ovals that would make for safer pack racing. Homestead is a big 1.5 mile oval like Charlotte, but wider and without the crooked frontstretch, so it's easier to run side by side. Kansas and Chicagoland might work too, but most of us don't own any of those tracks.

3. Drafting is always kind of terrible. Even on a big track like Talladega, which is even wider than Daytona, there's a good chance that someone will do something to cause a wreck and take out the entire field. Why? Because every car is equal, every driver feels like they can win, and nobody has any real edge to put them ahead of the pack, so everyone tries to make ridiculous moves that will get them in trouble.

So, I see one of two ways this can go. We can either stop doing draft races forever, or we keep doing them and just accept the fact that we will all get really mad at some point during the race, because everyone drives aggressively and everyone wants to win, and doing dumb shit is the only way to pass sometimes.

@slowbird: I'm in agreement, but we've done these races before without 9 cautions. Lucky dog will go a long way (previously it was manual wave-by).

well i really enjoyed all 3 races and i only got upset once out of 3 races so that's not bad.

@slowbird, @mouse this dosen't only happen at drafting tracks, friday nights race i got taken out because the guy knows its faster to just wipe someone out then it is to find a way pass them. I'm guessing starting next season there will be a Penalty system in place for those reckless drivers.

Clearly we have more issues than I realized.

As I stated during the Charlotte races last weekend, the choice is either limited fast repairs and lucky dog on cautions, or no lucky dog and unlimited fast repairs. Even if the free pass doesn't go to people involved in creating the caution (based on the sim's judgement), allowing drivers involved in crashes to continually repair and get any lost laps back is a bad idea. There has to be consequences for accidents, and even if we generally minimize such consequences with the ruleset choices, they're still there.

Based on our previous Charlotte races, which were more subdued in their aggression, if you had any idea backmarkers were going to aggressively slingshot up front to try and get a wave-by for the next caution, then you're either psychic, or you needed to speak up a long time ago.

Let's be clear about this: The idea of drivers a lap down barging their way through cars battling for the actual lead is something I don't like, regardless of the circumstances. Being in a situation where you're basically out of the battle is not fun, and having been there numerous times throughout our races, I understand that. Just because there's one scenario where you can get back in the battle does not mean you risk dragging several more drivers into your situation. I shouldn't even have to state this -- you're all capable of perfectly fair and competitive driving -- but there's a clear difference between a gutsy pass and forcing your way past leaders in the hopes a lucky circumstance emerges and gives you a second or third chance.

I'm currently leaning towards removing full-speed draft races from all the major series permanently, but I'll continue to think about this issue. I'm not convinced the lucky dog will solve the problem entirely.

Furthermore, I didn't see or hear the specifics of any incident at last week's Bristol race that Broncosfan is referring to, in part due to having my chat accidentally muted trying to prevent crosstalk on my livestream, but intentionally wrecking another driver (if that's what happened) is completely unacceptable. I will not implement a penalty system in this league because we should be above such petty shit, and the second I'm spending my time doling out penalties for misconduct is the second my money is better spent elsewhere. Rather, if we have drivers intentionally driving in a way that blatantly ruins the races of others and they don't improve, they will be removed from the league. Full stop.

There seems to be an air of cynicism and drama over the last two weeks. I really hope the encouraged drama of Friday Night Thunder last season or my idiotic bending of a pit-out rule earlier this season haven't encouraged this atmosphere, either. We need to remember that racing for us should be fun above all, encouraging finishing hard and improving our skills, and while it should be competitive and scrappy, it should not be at the cost of the enjoyment of other drivers (unless they only derive fun from winning -- can't help there).

Please keep this in mind. The future of this league depends on it.

@pseg: Ah, I don't think it's as bad as maybe all the serious business discussion up above makes it out to be. Whatever broncosfan is talking about notwithstanding, the Bristol race was tame and clean when we were expecting way more chippiness on the high banks. So we're a little rough on each other running open wheel cars in a tight pack, and the Mazda felt like dogshit on that track anyway, I don't think it should be an indictment of the really cool people who run in this league. And like I said before, there was no predicting how that was gonna turn out, so don't worry about it. I refuse to believe anyone has taken anyone out on purpose, guys are too nice and too helpful in my experience so far for me to buy it.

I would like to take a chance to thank pseg for organizing this, and all the guys who run in it and are helpful to a newcomer. This league has made iRacing for me. Before it was something fun to fire up now and again, now it's something I look forward to every week we run our races. And not just that, but practicing and logging laps in the days leading up to the weekend, striving to get better and match the lap times you guys throw up. I hope one overly eventful Saturday isn't causing too much undue stress on anyone.

"Consequences for wrecks" is a double-edged sword. Someone being in multiple wrecks then contending for the win is dumb, but someone getting stuck in others' incidents and put out is even dumber. The wave-by doesn't solve everything, but it helps makes the races more fair and fun for everyone. Just my opinion. :)

I would understand if draft battles aren't in major series anymore (lottery races effecting points). Maybe except BOMBCAR but stock cars are designed for that stuff anyway. A league with draft battles only would be pretty rad.

I hope bringing this stuff up here hasn't caused an issue. Saturday didn't put any foul taste in my mouth concerning the league. I've gotten to know you guys over the last few months which makes this more than playing a game; it's like hanging out with friends. I don't imaging iRacing any other way. My apologies if I ever seem overly competitive, that's just in my blood and I can't help that blood from running hot from time to time. I'll work on that.

Onward! Can't wait to do some go kart racing in a few days.

So, if no one's really pissed, the only "problem" that occured during that weekend is that we've had too much cautions for our own aspirations? That problem should be solvable.

I'm only a little bit offended by the thought of me crashing into other people (as well as during the BOMBCAR stream as well as FD) when I had less car contact than any of the Top 3 cars for FD and when did I ever crash into someone in BOMBCAR when not being part of another accident? Whatever, doesn't matter.

Like I said, at some other track it would be more likely we could go three-wide safely and not have so many cautions. But if we try to police ourselves and tell everyone to drive safely, we'll all just be driving around bored waiting until the end to race, so it might as well just be a 10-lap dash. (I am especially bad at playing it safe.)

Anyway, I would like to do some testing with other tracks (and maybe other cars?) and see if there is a more palatable combination for open-wheel cars on big ovals. I'm not concerned about BOMBCAR, because fenders make things a bit easier.

Regarding Bristol, I haven't watched the replay but I seem to recall the incident in question being just after a restart, when everyone is bunched up and it's easy to misjudge the available space. I doubt it was intentional, though I'm sure that's little consolation to @broncosfan.

I want to echo @mouse and @bifflog in saying that overall this league is still great, and I think this is a relatively minor issue.

@slowbird: Well since I bought the Star Mazda and then slept through the GBF1 race, I have that lying around. Maybe it'd be better at something with less high banking. We could do Star Mazda's at Indy for a bootleg 500 :)

Drama talk aside, Bathurst is the next Formula Duder race in under two weeks. It's a rough track for most cars, including our Skippies. I'll be holding a Formula Duder Mountain Survival School practice Saturday during the evening time where we'd normally be racing and all, and will probably hold another session or two in the weekdays before Bathurst.

Just so you're aware. Mount Panorama can be very frustrating without practice.

Just to note: you can jump the tire wall at the last chicane. When the track sweeps right, go through the sand and aim for the Michelin sign. After the races we have to gather at the bottom of the mountain and make that jump together, it will be fantastic.

I managed to go 6 laps without hitting anything, but completing the 13 lap race shouldn't be an issue as long as you concentrate and don't brake too late on the descent. Lap time was a 2:37 I think.. definitely can do much faster if the mountain is in a good mood. Official practice session sounds good!

I'm interested in joining and I plan to take care of the application steps today. I play pretty much every night so joining into an organized league should be fun! Watching the races on Twitch is a blast.

I am interested!

Anyone got any tips for this Silver Crown? I'm having some... issues getting around.

Friday Night Thunder makes its return tomorrow! :D If you're not sure what that means, well this time it means that two very different cars will tackle the slippery infield road course at Charlotte! For starters, the free car is the ever-capable Spec Racer Ford! A perfect fit for this twisty track. But if you're thinking "that's not really Friday Night Thunder material" well...you're right! To achieve maximum wackiness, this car will also compete against the wicked-fast, yet insanely oval-based Silver Crown car! AWWWWWWWWWW YEAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Look forward to it! :D

@bifflog Here are some Watkins Glen setups for it that might work okay if you change the gearing. Also, it gets more understeer as the fuel burns off. Other than that, it's a completely insane car to drive, which is why I've never entered an official race with it.

After a little bit of playing around I am getting the silver crown to 29.050 on charlotte. I still have a bit to go but I can turn consistent laps now, this car is bloody amazing.

::edit:: btw, silver crowns will need to pit at least once, need around 100 gallons for 30 mins

Wait.. 29? Are you doing the infield course? My PB is only 42 :(

No I wasn't doing the infield, didn't know that was the course.

:D we should do a doubleheader with the infield course followed by the oval.

@slowbird: I'll buy the Silver Crown if PsEG sets that up. :D

you guys are poking the bear with more charlotte oval :)

I'm especially pumped for GBGT this week, hope we have a big field...

OK.

Set for 10:30 PM EST, which should be a few minutes after the kart session wraps up.

Do not taunt the Friday Night Thunder.

I'm hoping to make a return this week to the GT series. I didn't get much of a chance to race the official series this week so I'm ready to input some laps at Summit Sunday.

I think you had a pretty good reason for not showing up ;) Hope to see you there.. kind of a tricky track.

Yessss

$12 well spent; that monster of a car is super fun. I kind of wish we drove that in BOMBCAR.

What if we do another "car vs. car" and did this race some day: Charlotte with Silver Crown, Gen6, RUF AWD, Lotus 79 and CTS-V. I know at least the first two would be competitive in times.

@mouse: I like this idea. :D

Oh man I won one. My shining moment. The laps leading up to the finish were so tense, and I love the Silver Crown. The infield race was great too, even if I could have used a pair of headlights :). Looking forward to GBGT on Sunday!

Thanks for a great race, man. Really enjoyed that. The weight of those cars makes them surprisingly agile and they respond pretty well to quick changes of direction.

@slowbird What happened to you on the restart? You dropped way back.

I second Slowbird's Dover suggestion :D

@khann: I was a bit too loose after the restart and bifflog got past. After that, I dunno why but I was just a bit slow and unable to keep up with you guys (I kept looking at my HUD to make sure I was getting full travel on the throttle pedal) so once I lost the draft, I just started taking it easy and trying to save fuel (which proved to be unnecessary) and then I spun while trying to get a run on broncosfan. Still fun though :D

Because we're not doing any racing today, and Formula Duder's next race is at a long and difficult track where crashes can easily wipe out a field, I set up an open hosted session that will be launching in ~30 minutes for Formula 2000s on Bathurst. If you want to get in some practice and comparison on the mountain, somewhere between 7-11 PM EST might be a good time.

As another heads-up, for those of you outside of the range of US Daylight Saving time, the Giant Bomb GT race will likely be starting an hour earlier than normal. Definitely check your league sessions to confirm if you don't want to risk missing this race.

Also, everybody currently subscribed to iRacing can join this race, as it involves Summit Point and allows for using the Cadillac CTS-V. If you can make it, I would encourage that you try and do so.

Summit is a pretty tricky little track. Finding it hard to be consistent and fast at the same time.

It's a lot of fun though, so everyone should jump in and have a go.

I'd be interested in joining up, mostly for the GT races.

Can someone post the replay for the summit point GT Race? I forgot to save it.