Is this a fair assessment? A certain someone on the Bombcast suggested this recently.

I would think so. You don't lose money in LoL when you die, and you can just hit the "B" key to teleport back home at any time assuming you have a few seconds to yourself. You also can't deny towers or creeps in LoL. In addition, instead of competing over the runes like in Dota 2, players have to deal with buffs given by killing certain creeps in each respective jungle. The replay system in Dota 2 is also really, really good.

LoL is still an alright game, though.

I disagree. I don't play either any more, but they're very different games. There's maybe fewer things at play in LoL, but that can be a good thing. I always found denying to be a stupid mechanic and needing a scroll to recall is kinda dumb in my opinion.

As for the buffs vs. runes thing, I find the competition for the buffs in LoL to be way more interesting than in DotA.

Saying LoL is a step backwards from DotA is like saying Halo is a step backwards from COD(or vice versa).

@sticky_pennies:

How are random runes a forward step from blue/red buff? And removing denying/drop on death/free blue pill are design choices...

The League client is really backwards though, and a similar replay system in already in the PBE.

LoL attempted to cut the gristle from all the archaic game mechanics that were present in WC3's engine.

The day-night cycle, trees which serve little strategic purpose, having to buy teleport scrolls, slow attack animations, the ability to control allies, denials, and itemization which favors dps classes were removed to increase the focus of the game on the basics of creating superior item builds, last-hitting, landing skill shots, ganking, and map control.

DotA 2 keeps all that stuff, which makes the game more complicated and harder to master.

Dunno if that helps answer your question.

Was wondering about DOTA, does it have a similar spactator mode like League of Legends?

Are the same people who are really good at DOTA also really good at LoL? I mean top-tier competitive play. I've been wondering this for awhile.

@cmblasko: You mean as if the skills from one game convert to the other or that the best from one game are as good as the best from the other?

I'd say it is a step back. There is just so much less going on. No creep, tower, hero denies. No stacking/pulling and thus no way to control the lane equilibrium. Overall much less for supports to do. No smoke ganks. No real juking. Smaller map. No safe/hard lanes. No courier, no secret shop. No recipes, no reliable/unreliable gold or gold loss upon death. No cost efficient items that are not slot efficient. No TP support when getting dove. No way to stop cancel an animation. Very few active ability items. Relatively stale meta, with few viable ways to setup your lanes. etc.

In my experience DotA's added depth has made the genre even better and more fun for me, but League definitely has its place. I could see how people would enjoy it and get into it easier. But without a doubt it is quite a step back atleast in terms of depth, but some might argue skill as well.

played league for years, then played more then a couple of games of dota. league is dota 2 in casual. the mechanics don't go as deep, the graphics are more straight forward and clean, so one does not loes track and the whole item system doesn't really allow any kind of experimentation.

when i'm playing league with some friends now, i don't feel very challenged anymore. it's like getting to know high culture, getting to love it and then switching back to pop culture, where everything is a bit more bland.

@oodli: It does, and it's miles away better than league.

Asking this kind of question here is a bad idea, as this place is usually a blind Dota 2 circlejerk.

They're two different games within the same genre with different mechanics that set them apart.

Play what you enjoy.

It's a pretty silly question. They're different games that are designed differently. It's like asking if playing BF3 is a step back from playing COD. Different beasts.

Look, i'm sorry but you need to figure out the difference between an assessment and an opinion. So what if Brad suggested it? Play whatever the fuck you want, just because he said that doesn't mean you have to listen. Why does every member of the Bomb Crew's opinion come under scrutiny every fucking time they say something?

You control the lane by pushing at the same rate your opponent is...

How so?

There is a champion pretty much has smoke 100% of the time.

What?... A majority of heroes in league have skill shots, for juking in that way, and you can escape people just fine.

Design decision, and the reason there is free blue pill, I'd say League is better in this aspect.

Recipes are in League... Reliable/unreliable gold, gold loss upon death, not stacking items are design decisions. I don't understand the TP statment. Auto attacks you can cancel, I don't understand how this is a knock against it though. ~20% of the items have actives.

Please tell me all about the League meta please. Even the NA scene is more progressive than the Chinese Dota one.

I doubt you've ever played league with any depth.

Because of the specific systems in dota that aren't in league I feel as though playing league may hurt one's dota skills as they become accustomed to things like infinite ports and not having to worry about denying or the courrier.

I think you all are misinterpreting the sentiment. Playing lol might be a step backwards for a dota player with regards to their path towards being a better dota player. We seem to like FPS comparisons here so I'd say it's like switching from cs to cod for a bit then going back, you're going to have to relearn quite a bit.

Is the LoL community full of the same horrible people as Dota 2? If not, go with that game.

the lol community is the worst community i have ever seen.. and i played counter-strike A LOT when it was huge. haven't had the chance to play as much dota as i'd like, but the level of shitty people wasn't nearly as high (so far)

They both have their fair share of bad apples, I wouldn't really say one is worse than the other.

As to the OP, "step backwards" is a less nice way of putting it, but I get what you are getting at. LoL was designed specifically to cut out a lot of the stuff from Dota that added to the learning curve but didn't contribute that much to the fun. I would call League "streamlined." There is nothing wrong with Dota 2, but its simply a game that Valve decided was to be a true sequel to Dota, with all the design decisions that entails. Riot set out to make a better Dota with LoL, Valve set out to make a higher production value original Dota.

I don't begrudge Brad his opinion really. I suppose I just wish it was based more in him having even 1/10th as many games in LoL as he has in DOTA 2. I started playing League back when it was still in beta, when I heard Anthony talking about it on Rebel FM.

Does the lack of a deny mechanic really make LoL "less deep?" Couldn't you argue that the removal of some of the chaff allows for more investment in actually learning the individual champ abilities?

I don't have the DOTA 2 experience to judge one game better than the other. I wonder how many people out there actually DO. How many people actually have 100 matches in each game? My guess is relatively few. It seems to me that maybe it's a bit like MMOs are. You love whatever your FIRST MMO was.

@president_barackbar: sure they have, but i was just talking about my own experiences and the LoL community is really, really bad. i mean, they turned off all-chat because there was so much trolling and harassing going on.

i have probably close to a thousand games in LoL and close to 100 in dota. i would say that the lack of lets say the deny mechanic makes it less deep. it's like soccer (yeah, i'm european, i'm talking about soccer): offside gives the game a tactical mechanism that a team can utilise to bring the opponent to a disadvantage in the current situation. if the mechanism wasn't available, the game would be far to easy and not as rich. same goes for the shops. the fact alone that you can't just buy only in base makes it way harder to get certain items, because you have to move a lot on the map and not just stay in base. the chance of getting killed is way higher.

Depends what you consider a step backward.

In the fact that LoL is essentially a version of DOTA but with anything that is remotely challenging removed, yes, LoL is a step backward.

But see, I'd argue that that kind of stuff in Dota is just complicating. I don't really think it adds that much to the actual skill needed to play the game. I mean, is cricket a better sport than soccer because it has more rules and is more complicated? it doesn't take MORE skill to play Dota well, it just takes DIFFERENT skills to play it well.

It's more of a sidestep, some might argue slightly to the back as well, but it's not too noticable.

Two different games, for as similar as they are you cant really compare them very fairly because of the fundamental differences.

EDIT: Read the post by Wolfieselkie on the second page of this thread: www.giantbomb.com/dota-2/3030-32887/forums/why-play-dota-2-over-league-of-legends-1442898/?page=2 (wtf, links are broken) He breaks it down well.

I don't even have a problem with dota, I play a lot of it with friends, and it does have a few more mechanics than league, but posts like MAGZine, and SirPsychoSexy's annoy me to no end. I suppose mindless forum posters have gotten to me.

Alright perhaps I should have said extremely limited control of the lane equilibrium.

Pretty much all supports do in league is sit with the bot lane carry and help him out. In DotA there is always something to do, whether it is stacking camps, pulling, denying, ganking/roaming, TP supporting the other lanes, warding enemy camps, helping mid with rune control etc. I have played a fair bit of league, not a ton, but one of the biggest complaints I hear is how boring supports are.

Alright, still no smoke available in the shop. It is kind of a big deal, bypassing wards and all.

What I am mostly referring to here is the dynamic vision and tree system dota has. It allows for so many more creative plays, escapes, and ganks. I feel like the whole running into bushes system is very bland.

Yep it is a design decision. But again the question was is League a step backwards and think not having these things certainly gives you less to think about overall.

I am referring to buying the physical recipe before you wish to complete an item. Yes all those things involving gold are design decisions, but they do add a significant amount of complexity and strategy which if lost would feel like going backwards when going from dota to league, which was the question. You can't teleport to a tower to help a teammate being ganked or to help him get a kill, tower or whatever. You can't cancel abilities, and if you don't understand how this would be beneficial I don't know what to tell you. The active items in league are very inconsequential compared to something like a scythe or orchid or abyssal. Which can all be game changing.

Well the league meta is basically Solo top, solo mid, support and AD carry bot, and a jungler. Every. Single. Game. Any time teams try to experiment or find something new and creative it is nerfed. Riot basically shapes the meta as they see fit. As for DotA, Aggressive/Defensive trilanes, dual lanes, solo lanes, jungling, sacrificed lanes. Are all viable and in many different combinations. Heroes come and go in popularity often not due to nerfs or buffs, but because of new strategies and an ever evolving meta. It is very liquid and constantly changing. Chinese DotA is miles ahead of any league meta (if it exists).

My intent was never to Bash League (although it may come off that way defending my points to you), but explain how going from DotA 2 to League will likely feel like a step backwards. All these things I have said are mostly design decisions, which I believe is for the better, but at the same time I see how other people will find League simpler and straight up more fun.

People can call LoL less deep all they want, it still has more varied and interesting champions.

I've tried almost all of the DOTA 2 heroes, and they ain't got shit on Ziggs, soz.

@f00 said:

Yeah, as someone who prefers League, the constant insistence that it's DOTA for babies or whatever is the worst.

That's not to say that League isn't without fault either. Support is a much more simplified role. That leads to them doing more harassing of the other team, which makes the game more aggressive in general, which leads to the uninformed opinion that League is just a no skill murderfest. People say it's not balanced at all, and in some cases that's certainly true. The champs that they've been releasing lately have been a little much, Riot has said as much, but they've started to rein them in a bit. That comes from them wanting to put a focus on individual skill play as opposed to DOTA which is more about team coordination. League's newer champs have so many tools at their disposal that it just makes more sense for pros to pick them. That said, they also haven't released a good beginner's champ since... Darius maybe? That doesn't make old champs completely unviable in pro play either. Twisted Fate, Ryze and Tristana especially are in a ton of pro games and they were in the game from launch. I really like that champs are getting hard to play, personally. Even recent "right click to win" AD carries have been super interesting. That's what sells League to me over DOTA. Sure, DOTA has Meepo and Invoker and some other pretty crazy characters, but they way League champs are crazy is more appealing to me.

I always believe this style of comparison is meaningless and just leads to silly arguments.

@sirpsychosexy: I wanna address a couple things. I should note that I've been out of LoL since a little before the introduction of Zac, not sure how important that is.

Supports: Yes, supports are often seen as boring, but they share a lot of the same responsibilities they have in DotA. They support the carry through harass, keeping wards up and trying to keep the opponent's teams wards down. A lot of supports started getting mobility boots, so that they could help mid as necessary and control the map more efficiently. When fights happen bottom, it usually came down to the supports. In a relatively even lane, the AD carries won't be able to do a whole lot to out play each other, so it would come down to the support's use of their abilities, or sometimes the lane combination(barring previous harass giving one side the advantage).

Juking: Juking is actually kinda great in LoL. As @f00 said, a lot of champions have skill shots that enable them to get away or impede the enemies. Most people are able to predict your path as well so you might have to be tricky. The brush while seemingly as boring as just "running into it" can make for some incredible plays. That lack of vision it grants, even if just very brief, can be a game changer.

TPing: I don't see how not having TP scrolls REMOVES strategy. It changes it. Not having the ability to TP to any tower on a whim(barring the summoner skill) makes you have to think a lot harder about when you're going to return to your base and when you're going to roam. It makes baiting more difficult and lane pushes more deadly, but more risky. And as I said, that ability comes in the form of a summoner spell. Summoner spells actually were getting more variance when I stopped playing, so there's another little bit of strategy.

The Meta: This I'll grant you, it's why I stopped. The same heroes were constantly being played, it got boring. Though I hear high level LoL discards that meta to a degree.

Recipes: I don't understand how the physical recipe is more interesting. Not trying to sound snarky or anything, I really don't understand.

Actives: Zhonya's Hourglass and Mikael's Crucible are absolutely game changers. Hell, Locket of the Iron Solari can be too. I think the actives in LoL are fine in comparison to DotA.

Heroes: Completely personal opinion, but I agree with @sooty that the LoL champions are more fun and interesting. DotA has some ok ones, but as a whole they just feel a lot more bland. And ziggs is awesome.

All that said, I am not trying to argue that LoL is better than DotA. I don't think that's true. I prefer it, sure, but I'm just trying to make the point that they're different enough games that this type of comparison doesn't make much sense.

People who say support is boring, don't play it at a high level. You're responsible for keeping the bottom side of the map warded, roaming mid if the enemy recalls. Is pulling/stacking camps, and helping with rune control all that fun? I find lane play in Dota really boring compared to league.

Courier allows you too snowball a lane to no end, since you don't have to go back to get items, and it's not like you leave lane for free and you don't lose cs or your tower, and I don't think secret shop is really anything good.

The recipe thing seems like a grab at nothing. And yes, the gold is a mechanic league doesn't have. You can teleport in league, there are teams built around summoner teleport/shen ult/tf ult. There are very few abilities in league that actually have channels, and the ones that do you can cancel. Zhyona's, Deathfire Grasp, QSS, Shurelya's, BotRK, Randuins.

Where do you get the fact that Riot shapes the meta? They have made it very public that they don't want to do that.

It sounds like you've watched very little competitive LoL.

Since the start of OGN Spring: The popularization of the 2v1, along with tower dives in the 2v1 lane, this gets countered by the jungler waiting in tribush from 3:00 - 4:00, then the 2v1 as a whole gets countered by the slow minion push, which intern becomes countered by assassin's mid, which is getting countered by brusiers mid. The popularization of ad's/brusiers mid, Nunu on perma ban in NA because of counter-jungling, nasus becomes one of the top, top laners/junglers, elise becomes a popular jungler, three lane push. Jayce becomes popular, poke comps make a come back, and then receed because of TF/Zac becoming popular. Le Blanc makes a come back in the OGN. 2v1 mid becomes counter to TF. Last night mafa played Annie support in place of Sona.

I could go on.

Chinese DotA is miles ahead of any league meta (if it exists).

:/ Do you watch either scene?

I'm not going to lie, I was straight up trolling there. On the otherhand, your first rebuttal to @sirpsychosexy post is awful and hilariously underinformed.

You're welcome to like whichever game you choose, but in terms of complexity and varied game, DotA has more mechanics, thus greater complexity. If you don't like the complexity or think it's archaic or choose to leverage any other number of stale, inane complaints, that's fine... just don't think that LoL is more complex. The title of the thread:

LoL a "step backwards" for a DOTA 2 player?

seems to indicate asking if LoL is a simplier/less complex game for a DotA 2 player, and the answer is yes. Are you going to argue that LoL is more complex than DotA?

Did I mention something about silly arguments? Some are trying to argue that LoL is more complex because it is simpler. :)

I have played several thousand hours of LoL, if that validates my opinion at all, and yes LoL is absolutely a step backwards. The game is boring and repetitive compared to Dota which has so much depth that you can tell how much someone has played the game by what they say about it. This thread for example, is filled with several people who have played 0-5 games

@magzine: The fact you're insulting me leads me to believe you're trolling me even more. What is hilariously under-informed in my first response, that is mostly questions? "A step backwards" is vague, and doesn't translate to complexity. Do you think the unit AI in SC:BW (which is terrible, in case you didn't know), is a step forward from SC2, because it required more effort to control units?

I would like you to re-read the title of the thread, instead of insulting me.

@f00: You keep replying to everything I say by saying how LoL's version of it, or not having it is better. That is fine and all, but that is not the point I am trying to make. All I was trying to show is how League may feel like a step backwards after playing DotA. That is not to say it can't be a great game in it's own right, but when it comes to complexities and mechanics DotA simply has more, whether you think it is beneficial or not. I am sure many people agree with you and don't believe that makes for a better game. It seems to me you just want to argue about which game is better, which I have no intention of doing. So good day.

Again I wouldn't say LoL is a step backwards as it is merely older. Dota 2 has the heritage of Dota plus a bunch of modern design that helps improve the dynamics a lot along with a lot of tech that makes it much more pleasant to experience even simple stuff like watching a game.

@sirpsychosexy: You're saying it doesn't have these things, and i'm giving you examples of how it does, I don't think I said anything about League being the better game?

Dota has denying, pulling/stacking jungle creeps, a courier/secret shop and tp scrolls instead of blue pill, and more dynamic lane setups. It is more complex in these ways.

Another one of this... LOL vs Dota 2 is the new Battlefield vs COD.

Honestly, certain GB staff members shouldn't talk about shit he has no idea about. Same goes for a lot of people in this thread.

They're different games with different pros and cons. If you think having to walk back to base and buy TP scrolls is exciting gameplay, that's good, but that's just your opinion and doesn't actually make one game better or worse than the other.

Also, the meta in LoL is so crazy and changing so fast right now that its hard to keep up with, so I'm not sure how that's stale. If anything DotA2's meta is closer to being "stale" because a lot of those champs, items, and strats have been around for a decade. Either way, that's total horse shit. If the game was stale people wouldn't be playing it.

I used to play the original DotA1 like a maniac, tournament level, but I ended up switching to LoL and found it more enjoyable because it removed a lot of the archaic mechanics that DotA1 had because it was built in WC3's engine. Obviously a lot of people are really attached to those mechanics and will defend them like I would have at the time, but having a break from that game and then trying to go back when DotA 2 came out felt like I was taking a step in the wrong direction.

I still like the idea of denying, just because it was a way of getting an advantage via your own skill in lane, but really farming is kind of the worst part of those games, and i'd happily trade that for the Runes/Masteries system in LoL. It opens up a ton of crazy strategies and unique builds for every champion. I think a lot of people underestimate how interesting and deep that system is from the outside.

There's definitely good and bad things for both games, and it comes down to personal taste, but don't go thinking one is better than the other just because you like it. Its just fanboy console wars shit. Right now i'm enjoying LoL a bunch, and the occasional DotA2 match with friends. Its kind of annoying that everyone has to become some DotA2 zealot on this site because Brad likes it and got caught up in some 14 year old's videogame wars thing, but in the end I'm just happy everyone is enjoying a MOBA, because they're super fun.

Playing DOTA 2 is like going to a library filled with wheat. Sit quietly, and farm your wheat.

LoL is like going to a party, with at least 10 fist fights.

LoL is not a step backwards if you like fun. I suppose it's a step backwards from hating yourself though, so sure.

I was going to post the thisgonbegud.gif and then I skim the posts and realise I have no idea what you guys are even talking about, carry on.

you farm wheat at a library?

whaaa?

Of course it's a correct assessment. Let's not be butthurt here.

Oh my God. Who cares.

Just play the game you like.

yeah.. I don't mean to sound like an asshole but seriously: I don't understand who would watch daily dota over Purge channel!? (just to name an example). First Purge knows how to play, and second he knows what the hell is he talking about.

Giantbomb is cool but then a part of community is to sheepy, and would eat whatever the staff trows at them.

Guys just stop this.

Please.

Talking with a lot of friends that aren't stuck up about games like some people, Dota 2 is a much harder game in many respects. And as someone who has played a lot of Dota and some LoL I would say it makes sense. The map in Dota just feels bigger and positioning is a lot more sensitive. It just seems like warding and map awareness are so key in Dota 2 because it's much harder to know where heroes are, especially after laning phase. An example of this would be that pushing creeps back between your own first and second tier towers can be extremely dangerous after the laning phase because you can easily get ganked if you aren't careful while LoL isn't as punishing if you are on your side of the map.

All of my observations obviously aren't from a pro perspective, but I do think Dota 2 is a harder game for normal people. When I play LoL I almost never die because Dota 2 has taught me to be so careful, and in some cases I'm overly careful. In a similar way, the ability heroes that don't have mana in LoL are set up for spell spamming while almost every hero in Dota 2 requires mana awareness. Drow is really the only character I can think of that has no regard for mana. So yeah, at the end of the day I think the statement comes from a valid place, but I think the games are different enough that it doesn't make LoL obsolete or anything.

This pretty much sums it up. I am not going to get into the argument of which is better.

One thing I will add to the argument is that Dota 2 has a lot more hard swings in game than LoL does just based on how the gold system, kill streaks, denying and items work. Because of that, games can be very punishing and very rewarding which can be a good or bad thing depending on what you're looking for.

Personally, coming from Dota 1 I could not stand LoL and had to go back to Dota 1. But my experience is based on the fact that I love the mechanics in Dota because they are based and inspired by War3's game mechanics, and that is very important to me. Also I could not stand how LoL did their free to play model at the time, limiting the amount of free heroes you could play with (compared to what was available in Dota 1 at the time)

Just play both games and see which one you prefer, A LOT of people play LoL competitively for a lot of money. I'm sure there is a certain depth and high level skill involve with it.

yes, absolutely undeniably is a step backwards from a dota 2 player perspective in every way. It's still a good game, just a bit of a different, very much easier to understand game.