I saw the ending to this game.

NO.

I don't really want to spoil how it develops(or more specifically, doesn't develop), but I think you'll understand what I mean by the end of it. Sure there are reasons why Lightning and Hope are so one note, reflecting a kind of drudgery that at times feels all too appropriate, but that doesn't excuse a lack of development for them or the handling of most other characters in the game. The interesting things are all too often buried by the nonsensical or uninteresting things, doing little justice to a few of the genuinely intriguing personalities and aspects of the world. I was left with the impression there was a more charming game here seemingly weighed down at times by its attachment to the prior games. By the end, it's more like you're putting on silly outfits just to make character interactions and story somewhat entertaining; though, I'm sure the level of interest will vary amongst players. If you're super into the FFXIII series plot and are forgiving toward how nutty it gets later in the game, though, you may still get a kind of finality out of the experience. That's the best I can really say without getting too specific.

Again,while that may sound a bit rough, there's a decent bit to like here gameplay-wise; so, even when everything else kind of comes apart, it's still an alright time if that's where your focus is. It's also willing to embrace a bit of silliness from the player, and that helps manage some of the flaws. I have a feeling you'll quite like it, and despite being even more ridiculous than the prior two games, you may come away from it feeling it's the most cohesive entry in the trilogy.

And for those who aren't big fans of the FFXIII series but do enjoy some of its battle system and general JRPG questing, I imagine Lightning Returns will be a great budget purchase down the line.

@truthtellah: Given the direction that the story has gone, from the events of the FFXIII through various time travel shenanigans and divine interventions to an impending apocalypse, I'm prepared for the crazy. The world is falling apart at the seams, after all. If this is the story that will wrap it up, I'm expecting some wild things to pass.

The story of XIII-2 is all sorts of dumb but I still kinda dug it, so I'm nooot all that worried about the plot doing nonsensical things here.

Yeah, it definitely feels appropriate for the train to seem as off the tracks as it is at this point. I think that's more tolerable thanks in part to the game's willingness to allow the player to laugh at it a bit; it seems aware of how ridiculous it has become, thus allowing silly costumes in deathly serious cutscenes.

The only way I would say that is unfortunately to the game's detriment is an issue I edited into my prior comment. The fact is, there are some interesting things they try in the game, and there is a kind of fun world unique to Lightning Returns. Heck, there's a time mechanic ala Majora's Mask for goodness sakes. And the issue is, the snowball of the prior games' baggage all being wrapped up in crazy fashion acts as an avalanche of distraction from a lot of what actually makes the game interesting. Which gives me the impression a more charming and unique game was buried beneath its attachment to the FFXIII series. I feel like some of the developers must have wanted to work on a completely new game but had to opt for fitting bits of it into this one. There are other issues with the game for sure, but I suppose the shame of the potential JRPG it could have been weighs rather heavy.

Anyway, ha, I wasn't meaning to be a downer on it. I'm actually glad they ended up making Lightning Returns as a clear resolution for FFXIII fans, and for other kinds of JRPG fans that just want some fun battling and collecting, I'd say it's a decent title to eventually pick up on sale. I look forward to what they'll be making next.

@truthtellah: I honestly wouldn't call it an avalanche of distraction, given that the story is a reason I actually came to the game and not just purely for the gameplay. I know you mean nothing by it, but as someone that does like the universe and characters, they're not something I downplay when I look at this game. I know some people are expressing relief at FFXIII finally being over and Square Enix can go back to working on Final Fantasy games that would appeal more to them, but I'm not in such a rush for that to happen.

Nah, I don't mean an avalanche of distraction inherently. Having an attachment to prior story is fine. Plenty of sequels have attachments to their stories and characters. What I mean is, Lightning Returns tries to take it all on. And it struggles more and more as the game goes along to not just be weighed down by it.

Thus, it isn't a matter of having that link being inherently bad; it's that they handle it poorly and let it become a distraction. So, you'll have interesting little pieces of the world or a fun character and then a bucket load of prior game stuff and just nonsense piled over it. Like if in this conversation I suddenly brought up three other conversations we've had in the past and then told you details about my mother and her childhood boyfriend who sent her mix tapes. Also, I'm actually an evil female robot trained by Godzilla.

You said you've played up to the first trip to the Ark, and there's a lot more to come. I think you'll probably enjoy it, as I did in my own way, but I also think you'll better understand what I mean here after you get further through and closer to the end. Anyway, I hope you have a good time with it; as much as we discuss their finer points, that's ultimately what games are for. :)

This might be the most reasonable FF13 conversation I have ever seen.

Thanks? Yeah, thanks! :D

Well, it's natural for different gamers to have various opinions on a game like this, and despite any misgivings with it or the prior games in the trilogy, I can appreciate the potential enjoyment people may still get out of the games. This one in particular has a decent bit going for it, and hopefully some JRPG fans that are more apprehensive at the moment will check it out eventually.

Looking at random streams it looks like this game is also quite challenging on normal with no HP regen on the field, limited use of items, escaping or dying costs time and so on. I really wish I had 60 Euro but I guess I have to wait till march...

I'm embarrassed for the people who think the middling reviews this game is getting are part of a conspiracy. From what I know about the original Final Fantasy XIII's story and gameplay, it seemed like a real shitpile and it still got 9's all over the place. So if anything, Lightning Returns is probably far worse than even these reviews would indicate,

That's not how reviews work.

@lilywhite: Unfortunately this seems to be pretty common with JRPGs. None of the Bravely Default reviews mention the horrible, horrible second half of that game.

That is one hell of an analogy. Now I'm excited to see just how bad it gets.

Not a review, but this is the thread to link it:

It's Time to Admit Final Fantasy XIII Wasn't Actually That Bad

I didn't realize this was coming out this soon which is great because Square can finally move the fuck on from this terrible run of games that the 13 shit spawned.

So the only problem is the story? If that's the case I'll probably still get it because even the early story I've seen in the Quick Look and elsewhere all screams of typical jrpg melodrama and other tropes so if I'm going to get the game it's going to be for its gameplay not the poor story

The cover of this game alone tells me it's probably shit. Don't judge a book by it's cover, unless it's final fantasy of which case feel free to judge a book by it's cover.

I've played around ten hours and that's what story seems like to me. But to get that kind of a reaction it must drive right off a cliff during the second half. All the systems are rock-solid though, it's definitely fun to play.

It's not just the story. The second half of the game is going to make you eat those "fun to play" words.

That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on these boards. Getting upset because a reviewer doesn't have the same opinion as you is already the worst thing people do on forums but banning publications from reviewing games that they didn't like is just ludicrous. If they did that every single game would be 95+ on metacritic because only people who understand and appreciate the game should be allowed to review it. Are you that dense that you can't see that Japanese games are different than what is normally released in the West and are definitely not for everyone. People are smart enough to do some research on games they're interested in and not just look at one negative review. Every Japanese game I've played has had some fantastic elements and some jarringly horrible elements. Is it that hard to understand that reviews are mixed? Japanese reviewers gave it mixed reviews. Should the publications in Japan who didn't like it be banned from reviewing future games as well?

No the main problem is the gameplay. The story is the reason the gameplay becomes so awful and tedious, but they could have easily changed it up. It's some of the worst padding I've ever seen in a game and destroys a lot of good will that the first 4 chapters build up.

Pretty interesting read though it doesn't bring up much that hasn't been mentioned before. The reaction to FFXIII is just one of those things that neither side is going to let up on.

Shit. There's nothing coming up on the jrpg release schedule that interests me until Child of Light. I was really hoping to wring some time out of this one.

Well, the things that bothered me might not bother you. Some of the people I've seen talk about it are into it, though they're only 10-15 hours (more than most of the reviewers seem to have played) in, if that.

I'll keep playing until I stop enjoying it, but those are two pretty strong "the second half is a tire fire" votes. Maybe I'll get lucky.

@oldenglishc: I would recommend that actually. Up until the "tipping point" it was a decent game, just don't go all-in on it and force yourself through when you're not enjoying any of it; I wouldn't have if I hadn't been reviewing it.

Again there is a difference between biased and fair. And if you do not even like this genre or this kind of game you should not be allowed to review it. You can still not like a game and still say it sucks. However if you do not show not even the slightest interest in a genre you should not allowed to review it. Giantbomb here is pretty smart about that. For example they do not touch JRPGs to review because they know they do not like Jrpgs to begin with. IF you do not like Racing games do not review Racing games. If you do not like shooters, do not review shooters and so on.

You can still have a second opinion from a "noobie or genre hater perspective but this should not influence the Metacritic score at all.

I really would like everyone who hates the recent final fantasies to tell me specifically what makes a final fantasy game. Because I hear people so often pining about the old games no matter if its the SNES or Playstation ones but here is the thing there has never been a "formula" for Final Fantasy. Each and every game has been unique and different. Each game has if not reinvented the JRPG genre at least some something that a final fantasy game hasn't done yet. I will never get the hate for XIII. Final Fantasy games have ALWAYS been melodramatic metaphysical nonsense. At least I can get someone like Gerstmann who just flat out hates the series. I get that. I dont get this rose colored glasses nostalgia for older games when no two games have ever been that similar.

@demoskinos: I don't hate the recent Final Fantasy games, but come on, the SNES/PS1 ones were all kinda similar in the gameplay department. Sure, some of them had their own weird little twist like Materia, drawing (ugh), etc, but it wasn't really until X that the series started becoming dramatically different with each release.

What did they do in FFX that changed the series so much? I rally do not get this.

Sphere grid? Made characters customizable without making them interchangeable. Also move away from ATB.

@demoskinos: In fairness I really enjoyed the story and a few of the core characters of FFXIII; I think Hope is one of the best written characters in videogames in terms of realism and believability, though many seem to interpret him as being a whiny kid - because he is, but that's awesome given his overall story. Although I do feel there was a woefully weak supporting cast and villain. I'd also disagree with the "it's too linear" argument since that's not too different from one of my favourites, FFX, and makes perfect sense given the story of the game. I even disagree with the notion that having to read the codex or whatever was a bad decision - I fucking love meaty codices. Upon starting a second playthrough though, I realized the game played itself. On a purely mechanical level, the game was bad - be that objective or subjective - and when you've already experienced the story the mechanics are the only important thing. That's what soured me hard on the game.

It's certainly not nostalgia - I think II, V, VIII, and XII are varying degrees of trash. They're all certainly a LOT worse than XIII. Besides, I subscribe to the idea that newer is always better.

FFXIII-2 just had a bad second half in terms of pacing and I had no interest in the characters (particularly Caius), to be honest.

EDIT: Wait I just realized this wasn't even what you were asking about. Fuck. What makes a Final Fantasy game? Nothing; they're all too different to say that there's any single formula to it. Anyone who says "It's not Final Fantasy" - and I know a few of them - are imbeciles.

@darji: Baby steps. It wasn't compltely different from the rest like XII or XIII, but it definitely went farther than previous entries. I guess the most obvious changes (aside from voice acting and better graphics), would probably be the Sphere Grid and lack of an overworld. The battle system was also pretty different even if it doesn't appear so at first glance.

But all FF had unique twist, mechanics etc. Every game is different from the next. It was like that since almost the start of this series. I get that every FF game is very controversial because it chances always a lot and often set new standards in this genre but That did not start or changed drastically with FFX. Hell FFXII changed drastically with the Zodiac edition as well. It felt likes a total different game beside the story.

@steadyingmeat These games evolve and hell I will not see a Overworld in an FF game anymore. They set a new standard and Tales games today also do not have this anymore because of FFX. Make it open word yes. But overworld and maybe even random encounters? No thank you. The system of 12 was also a literal version of the combat system of 11 just offline. And with each game of the 13 series. The combat system evolved to something more and more fun and honestly I think the new one is fantastic by the looks of it.

please, everyone. it's a THRILLOGY.

@hailinel said:

FFXIV being claimed as a "bold experimentation on the MMO formula" would've made me do a spit-take, had I happened to not be nearly-dehydrated when I read that. I've probably played over 150 hours of FFXIV, and it's alright, but it pales in comparison to FFXI, particularly just in terms of how different both games are from most MMOs.

I'm also not really sure what reviews say about this series at all, since this series has a certain reputation of getting undeservedly high scores. I remember Game Informer's review of FFXIII-2, an 8/10, while constantly complaining about it, and calling the story a total mess, the central part of an RPG. But still, 8/10.

But meh. I've tried taking on FFXIII before, and it's just best to leave it at what Jim Sterling said on Bombin in the AM a few days ago: everything's Twilight to somebody. There are a legion of fans who feel like this series is somehow under constant and unfair attack and take it upon themselves to defend it. I've seen long, sincere, comprehensive take-downs of this game, I've seen video series critiquing the writing of the game, and I've seen, read, and enjoyed, all those same things about the Twilight series. The reaction from fans is about the same for both.

@marokai: Long, sincere takedowns are no more or less valid than long, sincere defenses. Jim's comment that everything is Twilight to someone wasn't a statement that something is innately atrocious and will have defenders. It's that everything, EVERYTHING, no matter how good it is, will have people deride it as the most cancerous stain on modern media, whether it be Twilight, Flappy Bird, or The Last of Us. Final Fantasy XIII has its fans and detractors, and neither is on objectively superior ground.

After reading that I will now redirect you to my hot dissertation on why Final Fantasy X-2 wasn't actually that bad. (hint: It begins with "Job system" and ends with "Unintentionally hilarious JPop fever dream")

Actual point: Any game is going to have its supporters and detractors (and indeed, when a game gets near-universal praise it immediately makes me suspicious). Final Fantasy XIII is no exception to that rule. Final Fantasy is a diverse, divisive series. I guess what I'm trying to say is... I'm tired of this song and dance. At this point it's been almost 4 years since FF XIII came out. I'm much more interested on the general merits of Lightning Returns in something of a vacuum (I really am... though for the same reasons I was interested in FF X-2) than I am going through yet another discussion on if Final Fantasy is in the toilet or not. People have their preferences and I'm not going to deride anyone for having bad taste not liking the same games I do.

Also every time Final Fantasy XIII is brought up in a discussion I come slightly closer to playing Final Fantasy XIII. Thanks america.

Awful and tedious how? Are you just forced to grind more than you should?

Lightning Returns = World of Warcraft single player fetch & kill these things quests.

@colourful_hippie: I'll try to avoid spoiling the actual plot but you have to fight the same bosses and run through the same dungeons an additional 4 times (It isn't even new content, you're basically playing a condensed first half of the game again and again). Even the sidequests are mostly the same until the last chapter, with only some dialogue changes.