Spoilers of course.

First, I'm lukewarm on the ending. I can see arguments for the pros and cons. I can understand the DLC rage over Javik, especially after the Thessia mission. But that's not what this thread is about. I've played ME1 and ME2 multiple times and have had crazy geek discussions about the clues with my friend over the years. We all know that the ME franchise has been inspired by countless films and this got me thinking about the unicorn in the final cut of Blade Runner. The ongoing argument of whether Deckard was a replicant or not was difficult to figure out for sure, until the final cut linked the memory of the unicorn to the paper unicorn left behind by Edward James Olmos. Some people get it and like the idea that Deckard was a replicant and finding all the clues. Others get it, but think the unicorn is stupid. And then there is another portion of the audience that just does not get it, and thinks the whole thing is stupid. That's all fine. The real beauty is that it inspires us to discuss it.

I think a similar thing is happening with the Mass Effect ending. We seem to have 3 different opinions going on. First, if you're a big crazy fan, read the fiction, the comics and played all the games several times, to those people it is pretty clear that Shep was indoctrinated at the end and none of the stuff after the "charge" took place. That's fine. Then there is a second batch of players who have played all the games, are big fans, and they get the indoctrination ending, but to them it is forced and doesn't work. And that's fine too. And then there is another crowd of folks who don't buy the indoctrination ending at all and just think the ending is dumb. It's another valid opinion. Casey Hudson basically said he wanted the audience to think and discuss the ending. And boy did he get what he wanted, good , bad or whatever. There are clearly a lot of people who love the franchise and it's the discussion and opposing view points that make it special. There is one thing I find odd. ME3 is certainly not the only game with an ambiguous ending. Shadow of the Colossus has essays written on the ending and different theories. And that community shares the different ideas and are cool about it, sort of like, oh I never thought of it like that.

Instead of bringing about interesting theories and debates, the ME3 ending seems to have produced an extreme amount of negative rage and nastiness among the community directed at each other and the developers. I wonder if the From Ashes DLC had been free across the board like Zaeed had been in ME2, if there would still be such vitriol taking place instead of a fan base having a friendly debate about theories. I'm not sticking up for anyone. I'm not getting paid from Bioware. I didn't love the ending. It took me a month to finish the game and while I avoided ending spoilers I knew of the discontent. While the ending is a bit convoluted, it certainly wasn't any where near as bad as I was lead to believe. I see what they did. Probably could've been a tad more concise, but I appreciate that they wanted to get the community talking and tried to do something, let's say, unusual as compared to most games. It had flaws, wish they put the multiplay portion of the budget in to the single player, but I had a great time playing this game overall. As usual, Jeff's score was right on.

Having gotten that out of the way, when I finished the game and got the "good?" ending, where Shep is still in London and gasps for breath, the first thing I thought was, the last fifteen minutes was an indoctrinated dreamlike mind screw, but Shep fought it, and survived the "charge" and there's gonna be an ME4 or DLC taking place soon after as they try to take out Harbinger. B/c there are always sequels. Always. Sure that has holes, like, if Harbinger knew Shep was still alive after the "charge" why continue to indoctrinate him, why not just kill him in the rubble. But there is answer to that after the credits.??

Then the credits rolled and then the final, final scene played about "The Shepard" as in tell me another story about, who now? What? "The" Shepard? Then we get the text that says Shepard has become a legend. And the kid was using language that I immediately thought was like calling him the savior. Reminded me of The Matrix. And I was like, oh shit, maybe there isn't gonna be a sequel? Shepard's gonna get up and start using slow mo kung fu grip shit on Harbinger. Shepard can't be killed b/c he is the chosen one, the savior, "The Shepard".

Then my wife told me enough already. I'd been playing for hours. And she was right.

First, if you're a big crazy fan, read the fiction, the comics and played all the games several times, to those people it is pretty clear that Shep was indoctrinated at the end and none of the stuff after the "charge" took place. That's fine. Then there is a second batch of players who have played all the games, are big fans, and they get the indoctrination ending, but to them it is forced and doesn't work. And that's fine too. And then there is another crowd of folks who don't buy the indoctrination ending at all and just think the ending is dumb.

Instead of bringing about interesting theories and debates, the ME3 ending seems to have produced an extreme amount of negative rage and nastiness among the community directed at each other and the developers. I wonder if the From Ashes DLC had been free across the board like Zaeed had been in ME2, if there would still be such vitriol taking place instead of a fan base having a friendly debate about theories 

Having gotten that out of the way, when I finished the game and got the "good?" ending, where Shep is still in London and gasps for breath, the first thing I thought was, the last fifteen minutes was an indoctrinated dreamlike mind screw, but Shep fought it, and survived the "charge" and there's gonna be an ME4 or DLC taking place soon after as they try to take out Harbinger. B/c there are always sequels. Always. Sure that has holes, like, if Harbinger knew Shep was still alive after the "charge" why continue to indoctrinate him, why not just kill him in the rubble. But there is answer to that after the credits.??

I'm in favour of Indoctrination theory. Partly because of the various hints (20 minute YouTube videos and a massive thread on Bioware forums covers those already) and partly because I don't understand how the quality of writing, creativity and logic could have gone so down hill for the final 15 minutes of a game where they took the time to create plausible in-universe explanations for the smallest things (see pretty much any Codex entry; the omni-blade entry is a great example).

Here's how I see it breaking down. Either:-

A) Indoctrination theory is correct. Bravo to Bioware for masterful story-telling, but where's the actual ending? It won't be in Mass Effect 4 since they've already said that ME3 rounds out Shepard's arc (although further game in the ME universe are assured). So it must be DLC, which is super-bad form from a business standpoint.

B) That was the real ending, shows over. Indoctrination theory was just the fans seeing what they wanted to see, (un)knowingly being Bioware sympathisers and excusing the final spurt of bad writing and heavily flawed logic behind the Reaper's motives.

Personally, I think the slump in quality at the end is too out of character for Bioware's creative teams. Also, I don't believe that many other games have gotten their fans so invested in the universe that they would pay for the proper ending in DLC form. I'm sure there are many gamers more petty than I who wouldn't put such an idea past EA either. Hell, I'd buy it out of love for the series. What concerns me is that it could set a potentially very unhealthy precedent in the industry.

Most of that just came out of my brain as-is. Apologies if it's a jumbled mess or if I've overlooked something.

@Tennmuerti :Dude, I'm pretty much agreeing that if Bioware does consider it an indoctrination ending, they did it poorly, I like the idea of it and they placed themes of it way back in ME1 and again in ME2 so it wasn't hard to think/take that route, but the execution for the end had flaws, obviously. Me and my friend discussed the possibility of the Illusive Man being indoctrinated back in ME2 cuz his eyes were glowing blue and shit. So it's not a big leap there. If it wasn't indoctrination, then the ending is a slush pile of nonsense images. Okay. Sure, I get that too. Why rage at me? I didn't imply anything other than that. My main question was why a thread had to begin with "utter bullshit" rage as you eloquently wrote, rather than having a cool discussion about opposing theories about a videogame. You obviously care, b/c you wrote a long response. You care a whole lot judging by your anger, actually. But you don't have to hate on everything or everyone, man. And as for my innitial thought that it was a cliffhanger to another sequel, well, that's pretty much how the industry works, good ending or bad. Halo3 ended a trilogy, no? Come one Dude, lighten up. Have fun discussing a videogame.

@arcadias : Great reply. Great discussion. You are right regarding the potential to release proper endings via DLC as a bad precedent. Isn't that sort of what Asura's Wrath is doing? I was going to pick that game up until I heard that. Episodic DLC could actually be an awesome idea, but only if done properly so the consumer isn't burned. I wonder if From Ashes would've been free had EA not been in the picture given their track record.

I don't think you can require that much background knowledge, it is just unreasonable

You don't need Javik for the Thessia mission... You don't need Javik at all, he provides nothing more than a little extra lore. That Thessia mission still ends up exactly the same way without Javik.

@Tennmuerti: I agree with you. The viewpoint of indoctrination theory as belonging to those people who know more about Mass Effect, hence further implying it the correct version is incorrect. Didn't mean for my post to come off that way if it did. I only finished the game over the weekend so the ending discussion is new to me as far as participating. I didn't read the books. Or play the mobile games. Just the main games. My friend and I discussed it along the way like, a book club type thing. It allowed us to really nitpick details. In ME2 Miranda clearly said she wanted to put a control chip in Shep but didn't. So that is where the seed was planted of some kind of mind control or indoctrination since ME2. The blue eyes of the Illusive Man was sort of like a hint to us too. In ME3 Miranda touches on the control chip again during a conversation, but says she didn't, but who the hell knows what the Illusive man really did during the Lazerus project. There is a moment when Miranda questions why she stayed so long with Cerberus implying there was hidden control. The side mission with the ex-Cerberus scientists and Jacob alluded to more mind control/indoctrination. So in general from the beginning of ME3 there were themes of mind control and trust or lack of. Ash didn't trust you yet on Mars. Miranda has an issue with trust and Shep calls her on it later on. The Cerberus soldiers are under mind control. Possibly Udena too, otherwise he was a traitor but then it is a trust issue so either way fits the themes. The experiments at the end mission with Miranda's sister: more indoctrination mind control issues. The Quarians and the Geth missions explained how the creators betrayed the machines and tried to wipe them out so the Geth fought back and don't trust the Quarians anymore. Shep goes on the Geth dreadnaught and the Quarians open fire while he is on the ship! Talk about trust there. Shep trusted the Racchni Queen yet she was indoctrinated and betrayed his trust from ME1. There's some other stuff, but the point is the theme of mind control and trust was being hammered away through out the entire game so we started to think that was going to play a roll. And that's why the indoctrination seems right to me. It fits the whole theme of the entire game. The entire series, really. Saren betrayed the council in ME1 and became indoctrinated. It's the same theme. Do you agree with that? I'm not talking about the kid, I actually thought he was a bad homage to Aliens/Newt at first, and a dumb one. Until the dreams. The dreams are yet another theme of paranoia, doubt, regret, mistrust/mind control especially the last one where Illusive Man calls out to Shepard in the background. So for me, it's not about knowing more back story or anything like that, it's more so that as my friend and I discussed all the things that happened one at a time, the same themes continued to resurface so indoctrination appeared to be the most logical answer. Oh I thought of another: the Salarians try to screw over the Krogan during the genophage mission. Come on Dude, it's too much, the theme runs throughout the entire saga. Bioware practically hits us over the head with it on almost every single mission. Thoughts?

@TEHMAXXORZ: That's fair, but the lore and how it messes with Liara's head and how she wants to kill Javik on the Normandy afterwards was a pretty awesome moment. I would've been disappointed had I missed it. Does it ruin the game if you miss it? No.

But I can understand how it bothers people and sets a bad precedent moving forward.

@Freefall1025: She finds out the Prothean similarities and 'asks' Javik about it, so you only really miss it if you don't have Javik at all.

Deckard isn't a Replicant, and unicorns are always stupid.

That is all.

@MooseyMcMan: Yes! ROFL.

@Tennmuerti: Good points. Especially how the "clever" ending does not fit the casual approach they've been trying for since ME1. And I actually prefer ME1 to ME2 & ME3.

I'd say we both agree the ending was executed poorly, regardless of whatever it's supposed to mean.

I didn't play DA2. I enjoyed DA, but kept hearing negative things about part 2. It appears, at least on the surface, when EA tookover/bought Bioware things started to change, both the games, culture (heard the new ME book was recalled due to mistakes) and public perception. And now I hear rumblings from developers that the ending was rushed b/c they had to ship the game. Wonder how much of an impact EA really has. Did they push for the multiplayer to be included instead of having the damn mission log update when you found something. Just curious, not making excuses.

@Tennmuerti said:

@arcadias: It's not that out of character when you think about the boss at the end of ME2, which was also full of logic and plotholes. As well as the DA2 enfing sequences where almost nothing changes regardless of which hugely oposite faction you sided with. Plus the game quality in general. Also not surprising in light of the Final Hours ipad application which details just how rushed, last minute and how much they were undecided on the ending they were. Edit: Personally I have no issue with others believing in indoctrination theory. It's actually a fairly well put together theory as far as those go.(i only get riled up when it's being presented as fact, or as in this case a perspective borne out of greater knowledge)

I'm kinda with this guy when it comes to the ending of 3, hell I still don't really get the ending to 2 and why finding what is essentially a Terminator was a big deal but it hasn't stopped me playing through the game multiple times.

I think the indoctrination theory is pretty cool and if people want to believe it then that's fine, but when they present it as a fact it bugs me because I feel it somehow takes away from the ending I had with my Shep (despite all of them being so similar). I invested so much time in having this dude become a galactic saint pretty much by doing all of the paragon options that to be told he was brainwashed at the end makes it feel kinda shitty.

P.S. I feel kinda dirty that I signed up to a forum just to post about the ME3 ending when I'd been doing so well avoiding this stuff. Also, Deckard isn't a replicant.

I personally believe the theory is correct but that isn't what matters. Does anyone Remeber the discussions surrounding inception? Wether it was a dream or not etc? I feel like mass effects ending the exact same thing all over again except bioware don't have the skill to pull it off as well and Nolan so people are hurt and confused.

@Tamaster92 said:

I personally believe the theory is correct but that isn't what matters. Does anyone Remeber the discussions surrounding inception? Wether it was a dream or not etc? I feel like mass effects ending the exact same thing all over again except bioware don't have the skill to pull it off as well and Nolan so people are hurt and confused.

It isn't that Bioware lacked the skill, it's that the kind of existential meta-commentary Casey Hudson was looking for didn't belong in the conclusion of Mass Effect. This was our Return of the King, Jedi, whatever epic final chapter to a series or trilogy you love. The final moments of Mass Effect should not have been a meditation on the merits and pitfalls of a technological singularity. Especially considering the commentary was already made on that very topic via the Geth/Quarian conflict. The one I resolved peacefully.

There's a script for an ending a fan wrote that's floating around. It's called "Heroes," and not only is it better written (and even includes the Catalyst, its logic, and everything already present in-game), but it also provides the emotional punch and longing goodbye that Shepard and the Mass Effect universe deserved. As far as I'm concerned, that's the conclusion to Mass Effect 3, unless the Extended Cut DLC basically lifts that entire script and places it in-game.

At the end of the day, it's a real damn shame that things ended the way they did. Bioware had the one-in-a-million shot at making the kind of conclusion that most writers and creators salivate and get wet dreams over. They blew it. It's a sad state of affairs, but we can't change reality.

@Oldirtybearon That's a fair point and to be honest the theory could be 100% true and still would have been a bad ending just because of the quality and way it was handled. However I do find it annoying how people are so obsessed with getting closure and a ending where oh look! We beat them damn reapers! Real life does not work like that and I appreciate that that isn't what bioware is going for (hopefully). I find it interesting that they may end such a popular and successful series with the statement of - guess what you lost. That's it. No happy ending no nothing. You cannot stop the cycle. That takes balls and I wish more developers would do that. Again this is all speculation of course.

Call me crazy, seriously, call me crazy, but i really had no major issues with the ME3 ending. It was as good as the ME2 ending, and i thought it was worth my time and effort to play the game and see the trilogy to conclusion. I dont care about the theory, i dont care about speculation when taken so seriously. The story the developers told is the story the developers told, and im happy to discuss what i took away from it with anyone who wants to. I just think they tried to step too far in one giant leap, but i appreciated what they were trying to do.

But i think its completely bat-brained when people get so up in arms about a game. Were you let down? let the company know you were let down, but dont turn into prissy whiny babies because you thought the ending was 'bad'. Maybe if the gameplay was utter shit you would have a point. Don't start some mindless internet petition to get the company to change their game. its THEIR game, not yours. Feel free to pan it, tell your friends not to play it, etc. But to think that just because you bought into a game, you have a right to fervently petition and start a shitstorm about a rushed ending is utterly insane. I'll get on that petition to get Francis Ford Coppola to remake Godfather 3, but im pretty sure he's too busy making wine to check that website.

Guess what? there is a reason why it is so bad. You can probably thank the people who leaked the ending for that. The indoctrination theory is just people being sympathizers to bioware and wanting a new ME game, they are trying to find some plausible way for there to be a new game with shepard when they were already told it was a trilogy. Shepard is gone, put on your sunglasses and deal with it. Personally i think they could get away with saying "that was the shepard trilogy, now we move over here to this new galaxy, far far away from earth, what is going on here?" I think it would be fun to force players to play as a non-humanoid race.

@arcadias said:

Personally, I think the slump in quality at the end is too out of character for Bioware's creative teams.

Teams? What makes you think that the ending was written by a team? How about one guy who chose to ignore the rest of the writing staff, and write an ending that was emotionally void, scientifically focused, and intentionally vague?

http://geek.pikimal.com/2012/03/22/controversy-erupts-over-mass-effect-3-writers-forum-post-name-release/

This makes much more sense to me than the entire BioWare staff getting together and writing a shitty ending.

The ending doesn't deserve the speculation that Blade Runner's ending had. At all. It was a planned shit show last minute.

@TheHumanDove said:

The ending doesn't deserve the speculation that Blade Runner's ending had. At all. It was a planned shit show last minute.

Q for Fucking T

@Tennmuerti said:

What utter bullshit.
I'm sorry i just heard too many times people come in and claim intelectual supperiority or that they somehow are more "into" ME, when the majority of said people never even thought of indoctrionation theory for themselves, never done the legwork.

......


Now suddenly Bioware pulls one over everyone with the assumed indoctrination theory and you are totally fine with getting your continuation of resolution of the story/conflict via ME4? or DLC? for fucking real?

Shit they even came out and said they will personalise everyones ending with the next free update.
For all. Meaning that all resolution green/blue/red will have extra info after them tailered to how you played your Shepard. - This directly contradicts the indoctrination theory.

What personal resolutions and tailor made endings are there when you have been indoctrinated?
It also means that this is it. The end. There is not going to be some further DLC where Shepard wakes up from his supposed indoctrination and kicks the reapers ass. And what, everyone who chose the other 2 options get what? They don't get that? Bioware just screws them over? You also want them to fix the ending twice? I seriously want to know the logic thread here. The after the credits bit with the old dude and the kid sets up DLC. Hence it boots you straight back to the point of no return, with an in your face message about the DLC. In other words I wish you good luck with your dreams of taking out the Harbinger after waking up a second ending related DLC or ME4. PS: I don't know why the hell I even typed all that. This is probably going to get locked as like the 100th post on the ending. And there are existing threads on this already.PSS: Actually i do know, the assertation that indoctrination theory is somehow obvious to those who are more knowledgable about the series pissed me off. A lot.

*Golf clap*

*polite murmur*