Listening to the Bombcast...

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#101 Edited by BBQBram (2478 posts) -

@squirrelnacho: I really don't know what you want from me. It was never about entitlement, it was about not expecting Rockstar to copy Remedey's style note for note. Once again I never claimed I was right, only that those disappointed with the game for those reasons don't have a claim on "the truth" about the game either.

And nice job on dodging that semantic loophole for two posts now. It is indeed objective fact that the game is missing elements from the previous two. It is not objective fact that that is bad. I still don't get how "the bombcast is right" when the whole point of the site is a personal take on each game. It seems like you expect me to defend a point I never presented, that you gathered from this one sentence; "Too many folks feel Rockstar owed them a Remedy game and that was never going to happen". That was a comment on realistic expectations, not an insult to fans of the old Max Payne.

Anyway, I don't know why you're taking such a nasty tone. Like I said I'd happily discuss my opinion of the game but you still ask me to prove a point I'm not even sure I made. I don't know if you know, but there is no absolute truth in reality (paradox). But that's metaphysics, not really for everyone.

Edit: Okay I just read back a bit, your first words in this thread are "the bombcast is right", then you proceed to call others sour grapes for having a differing opinion using ad hominem and phrases like "...and many people agree with them" like that should mean anything to me or others who do like the game for their own reasons. Can you handle that people like Max Payne 3 and that they are not wrong? Your arguments won't negate the fun they had with the game or their involvement in the story or aesthetics, right?

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#102 Posted by ds8k (431 posts) -

@Lebensbaum: Not to mention the fact that you can still shoot as Max is standing up.

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#103 Edited by Frag_Maniac (125 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon said:

I was agreeing with you, yes.

Yeah I kinda thought you agreed that it's a good game, that's not what I was talking about though. Calling it fact when it's still really just an opinion is kinda missing my point.

Any form of creative entertainment is only as good as the sum of it's parts, many of which, like story content and how it's told, are open for interpretation and opinion.

I never want to see the day when entertainment is judged by using set criteria to pass or fail on excellence in each category. That would make it far too easy for devs to get over those hurdles by meeting those criteria with no attempt to tie everything together well.

For instance gymnastics and any sport that is judged on style and form points typically require certain moves to be performed, however merely performing those moves does not in and of itself make for a good performance.

Anything of creativity is always going to be a matter of personal opinion. Personally I prefer realist paintings over abstract or surrealist, but that doesn't mean those other forms of art aren't legitimate work.

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#104 Edited by mr_woo (39 posts) -

As a huge fan of the first two games I have to say I loved the shit out of Max Payne 3 as well. It's not exactly like the previous games, as I expected, but that's fine. Remedy have a particular style and writing that Rockstar just can't do and I appreciated that they went off and did their own thing rather than just attempting it and fucking it up. I really liked Max's character arc during the course of the game, it felt like a natural extension to me of his character from the first two games and in this one we are seeing him at the absolutely lowest point after the death of his wife and child. I like the fact he's a pill popping, drunkard who's a bit melancholy who whilst being emotionally unstable is an unstoppable, relentless physical force underestimated by everyone around him. I especially love the way the story plays out later on during the course of the game and how Max reacts to the events around him. There's a wonderful sense of humour in there as well, a lot of Max's comments are funny as hell, he's not entirely miserable throughout the game.

The one thing I love about the actual gameplay is that it is challenging, in a very good way. It asks a lot from the player and it actually wants you to learn from your mistakes and use everything at your disposal. It punishes you accordingly if you make a mistake and expects you to learn from it. During my initial playthrough I did a mixture of everything - shootdodging, hiding behind cover, blind fire, using just bulletime, shooting from the ground, rolling etc. You actually learn a lot from your first playthrough and for your second playthrough you become much more confident. On my first playthrough I was playing on normal but on my second playthrough on Hard I was shootdodging a lot more as my timing was better, using bullettime at the right time, taking more risks etc. The thing to remember is that the enemy can't aim for shit when you are in the air. If you are behind cover they are pin point accurate but when you are diving through the air they can't hit for shit. It actually rewards you the more you play and you can become more 'cautiously reckless' in how you play, if that makes sense. I find this really refreshing in a day and age where games are so piss easy. I appreciate not everyone likes that but I loved it.

I also really liked the actual technology behind the game as well. Just things like the Euphoria engine and the fantastic enemy reactions that come from this, the obviously separate bullet wounds and area specific damange, the way the weapons sounded and the reloaded animations, the way Max carries his guns and all the other little details such as a slow mo bullet cam when you take out the final person. It's pure gun porn at times. It's a really, REALLY satisfying way to finish a gunfight. Especially when you pump the final enemy full of bullets. For example, I loved it during the stadium sections where you would kill someone and the way they would wince in pain and just roll down the steps, hitting the chairs on the way down etc. It's just those little touches I really appreciate, everything feels 'real' and it adds up to making the combat more satisfying. It's one of the most satisfying shooters I've played for years. I certainly never found the enemies to be bullet sponges but I always aimed for the head as much as possible so maybe I just never noticed it as much.

I completely understand why the Giantbomb crew or anyone here dislike the game even if I don't agree at all, but hey different strokes for different folks :) I was really surprised myself by Max Payne 3 as the one thing I feel Rockstar hadn't really nailed to this point was the combat in their games. On PC especially the mouse and keyboard controls were superb and felt exactly like the old games to me. On controller it felt a bit clunkier/less responsive but even so much more improved over their other RAGE engine games. It does make me look forward to GTA V more as with the control improvements it'll be much more fun to play.

Anyway, apologies for the long spiel there, just explaining why I like MP3 so much :) Even if it's the last Max Payne game we ever get I remain fully satisfied. It's easily one of my favourite Rockstar games along with Bully and Manhunt.

If I had to complain about one thing it's that I feel the game desperately needs an instant action mode. Just a means to start a level and jump around shooting fools as much as you want, an instant gratification if you will. I don't mind if Rockstar want to have a game that focuses on storytelling, that's absolutely fine, but give me a way to enjoy your gameplay mechanics without the cutscenes etc. I'm still really disappointed they cut out the Dead Man Walking mode but maybe we'll get it as DLC eventually.

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#105 Edited by Seroth (764 posts) -

My first time through the game, I wasn't really enjoying it. It was on Normal difficulty, and I had similar complaints about enemies being "bullet sponges." I didn't really spend most of my time in cover, though. I rarely used shoot dodge.

My second time through, however, was on Hard difficulty, and I had WAY more fun after discovering two things:

  • You have infinite shoot dodge, no matter how much actual "bullet time" you have.
  • A small "X" appears in your crosshairs to let you know when an enemy is actually dead

These two realizations made the game INFINITELY more fun, and now I love the game. I honestly don't get the whole "you have to be in cover the whole time" complaint, because that is NOT how I played the game. I played the game by jumping out into the open, murdering dudes in the face in mid-air. Then when I landed, stayed prone on the ground and picked off the remaining enemies, as the last shot was emphasized by a rotating bullet cam in slow motion. It was badass, just like how a Max Payne game should be. It's probably even more fun if you lower the difficulty.

My only remaining complaints are the load times and "unskippable" cutscenes due to those load times. Playing through Arcade mode at least skips the introductory cutscene of a level, and sometimes the ending one.

Oh, and I have barely touched multiplayer.

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#106 Edited by squirrelnacho (461 posts) -

@BBQBram: Your original post clearly intended to imply a sense of entitlement, you said people felt they were owed something.

Obviously these are peoples opinions. People aren't right (or wrong) for like the game. That doesn't mean it can't be argued that removing many important elements of the original games mean's the third game is not as good, and in some cases barely feels like a Max Payne game.

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#107 Posted by Solh0und (2045 posts) -

In all fairness, This is the reverse Skyrim in bombcast terms. Everyone else but Ryan was digging Skyrim and now this game is the reverse of that. 
I personally have no problem with the game except that it DRAGS near the end of the story.

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#108 Posted by BBQBram (2478 posts) -

@squirrelnacho: Well I guess that even though I like the other Max Payne games, I came into this one with more of an open mind, because I knew Rockstar wouldn't just ape what's been done by Remedy before. That was my original point too, and not to get into that again but, I wasn't really that sarcastic or upset with people disliking the game for that reason, just seemed to me that they were never gonna get that experience from it in the first place.

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#109 Posted by Heltom92 (810 posts) -

@ds8k said:

...and I can't agree with the guys at all. I played through the entire game on PC on Hard and never had an issue with it. I played it like a Max Payne game - no cover, always be shootdodging. Because I went for headshots 100% of the time I never experienced the bullet-sponge stuff Vinny mentioned.

Vinny talking about how the game was preventing him from having fun makes me question whether he remembers the original games - they weren't a fucking joke with difficulty. If you jumped into a group of guys you'd get wasted immediately.

I agree with you 100%. Never had any problems with difficulty (although I did die quite a few times it was never frustrating) and I found diving out of cover to shoot guys to be a valid tactic.

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