No Mans Sky was a lot of fun, since when did we take corporate interviews as gospel?

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Sahalarious

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Ever since the dawn of gaming's profitability there has been grandstanding and overselling. They try to tell us how call of duty has evolved while they await our preorders for the identical next entry. Madden will boast some kind of new rag-doll or something without ever changing, cha ching on release day. Sean Murray wanted to make a game that he failed to make, and yeah his late-game optimism was shitty and misleading, but we should be used to that. I'm not saying that the existence of shitty misleading boasts makes them okay, but we need to have thicker skin.

When it comes down to it, no matter what was promised, no matter what the marketing, the games we buy exist and need to be evaluated on their own merit. I had about 20 fucking phenomenal hours with no mans sky, exploring and relaxing, and I stopped in hopes of the updates they've referenced. I got 5x the playtime of an Abzu or a Journey, for 5x the price, and am totally okay with that.

Corporate evil is an obvious and uninteresting evil to "expose" by deriding a simple game. I for one enjoyed the game immensely before its limitations became too much, and hope for many updates and improvements (until i can afford a PC upgrade for some Star Citizen action!)

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#2  Edited By violet_

i believe the issue was the developers straight up lied about key features in the game and theres a comprehensive list of promotional material that gives a flat out wrong idea of what the core game is actually like

Some people don't like being lied to

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Sahalarious

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As a hardcore gamer I find myself less reliant on promotional material, to the point that I dont even end up looking at it half the time. That does not excuse misleading the many hardworking casual gamers however, fair point. My message goes out to the long time, well versed gamer's instead though, who should have gotten sick of the taste of snake oil a decade ago.

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deactivated-5a923fc7099e3

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The pre release spiel from Muray doesn't bother me that much. Peter Molyneux did the exact same thing for years. But the vague messaging about the multiplayer features, even right after release, was a bridge too far for me. At a certain point you cross the line between being overly optimistic and being willfully deceitful.

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Belegorm

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Shit changes over development. It would've been much more helpful if they spelled that out that things were different, but nothing's set in stone.

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TheHT

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#6  Edited By TheHT

@mub said:

i believe the issue was the developers straight up lied about key features in the game and theres a comprehensive list of promotional material that gives a flat out wrong idea of what the core game is actually like

Some people don't like being lied to

Lied or overshot on what they could realistically implement? Because lying is to intentionally obfuscate and deceive. Having ideas and plans only to realize "oh fuck we can't actually do that," isn't the same thing.

Doesn't excuse being wrong either way, but one is certainly less bad than the other.

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GERALTITUDE

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The most recent Gamers With Jobs podcast has a beautiful moment at the beginning where Sean basically says "since when did we care so much what people said? or trailers?" and everyone on the show just quietly agrees then moves on to talking about what No Man's Sky the game is like. This was laugh out loud funny to me and a reminder that you can find like-minded individuals if you just take a small step outside the "Core Circle" of game fans. There are many, many people out there who are in fact totally even-handed! They can both a) criticize relevant parties for poor communication and b) appreciate the game on it's own merits.

It's hard to talk about this without making people angry, but at the end of the day, there are people like @mub mentioned, who don't like being lied to, and there are people like me, who don't care what anyone says, or shows about a game, and will play it to find out what's what in the end. If I am not mistaken, there are a host of other types of legitimate reactions too! :D

Long before Peter Moylneux became infamous, we already knew "don't listen to sales people". And yet we still do.

Long before the Kill Zone 2 trailer, we already knew "don't believe in trailers". And yet we still do.

I think what's funniest particularly about the games angle is how Shawn Murray's positivity is somehow an "evil" trait, like being excited about your game makes you terrible. Do me a favour and watch actors and directors talking about the latest shit movie they made. When you read the comments, how many are up in arms about their "positivity"? Either real or fake, that's just how people talk about the stuff they made. I feel there is a real tension between "What We Should Expect In The Real World" and "What We Want From A Better World". Pure honestly is a nice idea, but since it's never going to exist, maybe you should build yourself to deal with reality? Perhaps not the right answer for everyone.

To end an already overly long post, I think there are a lot of people out there who just believe in some sort of messed up "Batman" style justice where "liars" need to be "punished" and of course, no question, these people are the right judges.

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Sysyphus

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Personally I treat all marketing as BS, because it usually is. I usually don't follow the prerelease stuff because I don't want to fall for the hype machine, and fall into this preorder culture, where they want you to put down money for their product sight unseen. This is not beneficial for anyone other than the people selling the game. I would much rather wait for real gameplay from real people, and judge the game based on what is presented in actual gameplay, not some artificial trailer. I do the same with movies, purposefully ignoring trailers (except in the cinema, bit difficult to ignore a 50" screen) and basing my view on reviews from people I trust.

That said, in instances where Devs are blatantly lying about certain aspects of the game, the bad reaction on release shouldn't be blamed on the fans for being "too hype". They didn't get what was promised, and this goes beyond Devs wishful thinking. At the end of the day the reaction to NMS is entirely the Devs fault for not describing/ portraying their game and the features of the game in an honest, and realistic way.

If you blatantly lie about such features as "dark souls like" multiplayer, don't be surprised when people are expecting dark souls like multiplayer!

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Levio

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@geraltitude: If you want to live somewhere that people don't get punished for lying about their products, feel free to move to China, where they will fuck you over everyday with every single thing they sell you. I'm sure you'll have a blast.

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Lagaroth

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I think that part of it is that for many people the game itself was not very good. I played it for a handful of hours and will probably not touch it again unless they make some major changes. Comparing the first trailer, which is the original E3 trailer I think, that is still on the Steam store to what I actually played there are so many differences that the game is hugely different. From animals that don't look like a five-year old's first Spore creation, to the number of animals, to the foliage and massive fleet warping in and a large scale space battle. That is still a trailer that they are using to promote the game.

While there is definitely a backlash over the past marketing and interviews, I think that there are also plenty of people complaining that, ignoring all of that, the game itself is just not very good. From the combat (space and ground), to the NPCs, to the wildlife, to the 'Story', to the inventory, there are plenty of things that people are pointing to as being bad that have nothing to do with the hype that came to surround the game.

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Pezen

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I feel like that defeatist attitude will just lead to mediocracy down the line. On some level I feel like we gamers don't need thicker skin so much as we need to be consistent in our complaints and simply not buy games we feel aren't up to task. I suppose the hard part there is knowing whether or not that's the case. A lot of other media is easily sampled or have a lower barrier to entry. And other products are usually easier to try before you buy so you make an educated purchase. Games sometimes live in this weird middle wasteland where you sort of have to buy it on good faith and trust the opinions of strangers and friends. I'm mostly surprised so many people come out to either make excuses for developers in general or put the responsibility of a products reception on the consumers rather than the developer

@theht: I don't know, according to that long-ass Reddit breakdown of all the features Sean talked about that isn't in the game, the last few trailers (the four pillars one) and the IGN First series are all supposedly using footage of a version of No Man's Sky that isn't representative of the actual No Man's Sky you buy.

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violet_

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@theht said:
@mub said:

i believe the issue was the developers straight up lied about key features in the game and theres a comprehensive list of promotional material that gives a flat out wrong idea of what the core game is actually like

Some people don't like being lied to

Lied or overshot on what they could realistically implement? Because lying is to intentionally obfuscate and deceive. Having ideas and plans only to realize "oh fuck we can't actually do that," isn't the same thing.

Doesn't excuse being wrong either way, but one is certainly less bad than the other.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that the developers were too ambitious for their own good and still enjoy the game very much

But yeah.... not a good look when the game comes out with barely any of the stuff they had plans for. No Man's Sky is a cautionary tale of managing expectations and being clear in your marketing, for gamers and developers alike.

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Anonymous_Jesse

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I disliked playing it. But it's cool that you liked it.

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TwoLines

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As many have said, it's not that they have said X and Y in interviews, it's that they never straightened it out, and even obscured some things. I bet it wasn't intentional, but they still screwed up. The messaging was non existent. And that sucks for them, because the backlash is way overblown, but that's kind of what you get when the communication is wonky.

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Skald

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This isn't new. I remember when I was a teenager, it was Fable (and the Infinium Phantom) that were promising the moon. Pre-ordering was dumb in 2004 and, as it turns out, it's still dumb today.

But that's not saying that the people who pre-order are foolish, just optimistic. And sometimes that optimism is rewarded, and sometimes, it's punished. Caveat emptor.

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BojackHorseman

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NMS is the probably the best example of why developers and publishers can't do their own coverage. It's kinda good to see that game media is still relevant and needed actually.

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hero_swe

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Loading Video...

'Nuff said.

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Firepaw

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I didn't like how it played, and the gameplay loop and depth are not good in my opinion.

There are also the issue of what Sean said in prerelease coverage, and what actually went into the game. Honestly that doesn't bother me as much (though it does suck), I generally just don't like the gameplay.

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deactivated-5e60e701b849a

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There's a little bit of difference between this game and Call of Duty when it comes to marketing. First of all, this is an indie game and not Call of fucking Duty. Second, when Eric Hirshberg comes out to say how great the next CoD will be, you instinctly know it's fake because he's a suit. Sean Murray is the head of a small indie team, who appeared genuine whenever he was speaking publicly. Third, CoD doesn't need as much transparency as a new IP from a small team, because those games will sell no matter what.

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Atwa

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So what you are saying is, don't listen to anything developers say to get an idea what the game is?

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ArtisanBreads

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#21  Edited By ArtisanBreads

I don't let them off the hook for it all because I think the game was not clearly marketed, but still I do agree. I find it funny there is a rightfully distrustful look at marketing but when it comes to videogames people are kind of all in a lot of times on whatever is told to them. I still view it like I would a commercial for any old product where I question whatever they are telling me. They certainly should have had some PR out there instead of a developer.

If you look at what happened to NMS, the game just seems like a mess and they couldn't get a handle on it. They were adding huge structural things to the gameplay after it already went Gold in a patch. I think the execution was just poor and it shows. To me I think they misled/lied on marketing mostly with things they just could not pull off at all and didn't really have the chops to put in the game, with the late game scrambling to get something out being proof. Looking at how the early game was patched in basically and you don't get a tutorial at all if you use the pre-order stuff just shows sloppy design that was thrown together at the last minute.

This game should have been Early Access (it's basically leaning on that model anyways) and should not have costs $60 because there is not enough there. Games in the genre have more going on in many ways and cost half as much. I really think cost amplified this one. If it was a $30 game and/or in Early Access a lot would be forgiven. There were a lot of mistakes made with this game.

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dudeglove

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Since the journalism industry as a whole got gutted about 10-20 years ago (thanks, internet, but it wasn't the only reason). You only have to look at how many people work in PR/Marketing versus those who work in media. The balance shifted from something like 2 journos to every 1 PR rep, to 4 (5/10/20?) PR reps to every journo. When "tech" journalism itself is a joke staff by people who would rather go to a vapid event like SXSW and pontificate about whatever the new apple device is in their articles, or reprint press releases, rather than investigate wage fixing and abuse of worker's rights in tech companies, why would you expect the video games portion of tech journalism to be any more informative?

Giant Bomb at least ventured away years ago from reposting press releases, and Jeff has said as much multiple times in the past that they don't do that sort of thing any more. The only time they seem to actively use corporate-provided material is during the podcasts as a go-to for the news of the week, which isn't exactly ideal either.

The short answer to your question is "because there are no people to provide you an objective viewpoint, as most companies gobbled up those people for their marketing depts. because they were dangling a guaranteed pay packet with benefits".

Does it suck? Absolutely. What can you do? Support people who are trying to do such things. And don't let the poets lie to you.

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superfriend

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@hero_swe said:
Loading Video...

'Nuff said.

Yep. This goes beyond some 'lofty goals' for their game. They straight up showed stuff that is not in the game. They showed that stuff almost right up until release. What they delivered is not even half of what these trailers and interviews promise. And that's not even talking about the bugs. If at some point any of the devs would have come out and said "oh, this is what we're aiming for, but we're not even halfway there yet" it would have been kinda okay. Heck, even Bethesda (who are pretty bad about promising features and not delivering) have not made this many mistakes in the period leading up to release.

They straight up lied and they should have been a LOT more honest about the state of the game.

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Quantris

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So, I bought this game on PC after the patches, and am about 16h in. I wasn't especially overhyped for this game, and I had my eyes wide open and knew what I was getting when I bought it. As far as the price I would say it's not justified for the game you get right now (much more on that below) but I felt okay about it because I believe they'll be updating this and I'm willing to put that money down just to experience what is (for better or worse) a landmark release.

Regarding deceptive marketing / pre-release statements

I'm incredulous that anyone can look at what Sean Murray said and not find any fault in it. It is true that things change during development and it is quite obvious that compromises were made to get this game out the door. And also true that the very nature of PR is about exaggeration, focusing on positives and minimizing the negatives. However, there's no question in my mind that Sean willfully misled about this game. A recent example from as late as Aug. 4, well after the game went gold: he gave this interview which while edited, still contains this gem: "The angle of sun irradiation and its intensity determine what kind of minerals compose in the ground. Naturally different resources influence what kind of flora and fauna grows up in a certain area." Now technically you could argue that this isn't wrong because he could be talking about the real world, but he's clearly trying to imply that No Man's Sky somehow models this kind of effect. Utterly false when you look at the real game, where there is plutonium *everywhere* and the distribution of other elements does not vary appreciably over a planets surface (also that the angle of the sun is totally not modeled as the planets don't even orbit a sun).

The big complaint people have is, of course, the lack of multiplayer features in this game. Personally, I'm not too bothered, because I never believed there would be much more than there is. However, just the fact that whenever Sean was asked questions along these lines, he would often give a non-answer about "it's so unlikely because the universe is so big" was a huge red flag. This "argument" is intellectually dishonest if you're also claiming that via procedural generation, all players are playing in the same universe with the same planets in the same places --- with this premise (which is true of the released game BTW) then *of course* players will manage to encounter others because they can coordinate outside the game. I can't bring myself to believe that Sean was saying this in good faith, which means that he was trying to avoid telling the truth about how the game works.

Is the game any good?

I'm enjoying the game for what it is, and play it in short bursts where I explore one or two planets at a time. Though my CPU is kind of old so I'm still getting performance issues (stutter here or there). As I mentioned I don't really mind the lack of multiplayer, but as a single-player game, there are definitely complaints to be made.

First, though, this game does achieve something special with just the sense of scale & ambition. Though the planets definitely fall short of the pre-release hype, it is still a universe that I can get lost in & explore, and not many games are even trying to achieve that. That said, it's hard to compare this favorably to something like Minecraft, which has arguably at least as much potential variety (but with better terrain generation) and just plain more options as to what to do (of course Minecraft heavily benefits from the modding scene).

The most disappointing aspect of this game for me is that despite all the talk about it being about exploration, it really doesn't go out of its way to give any depth to it. Basically all the game cares about is: scan things, upload them (sometimes naming them), and move on. I think it's appalling that while you can see a list of your discoveries, there's no linkage between that and the actual map (so good luck revisiting any of those planets, unless you had the foresight to use the broken waypoint system to bookmark one). Obviously the game has some kind of coordinate system internally (because the planets do exist in the same places for everyone) but the decision to not expose it beggars belief. There is also no mapping at all at the planetary level, and also it seems like if you discover more than six waypoints then the old ones are just gone from your index (I think they are still "discovered" as far as the universe goes). So it's nice and kind of cool to know that if someone does visit this system they'll see my name & when I discovered things, but it's ludicrous that I can't go back and see that myself or easily take a friend on a tour of the best planets I saw. Without closing the loop in this way, the "exploration" ends up more like daydreaming: you might see something cool but it doesn't feel like "discovery".

While playing this game, it quickly sinks in that everything you're doing is inconsequential. Which in a cosmic sense is somewhat meaningful, but in a game design sense is a cardinal sin. Even if my actions don't have meaning on a grand scale, it simply sucks that the game won't acknowledge that they could be meaningful on a personal level. It's been suggested that there will be base-building added to this game, which sounds good, but it actually seems a bit like putting the cart before the horse: base building won't be worthwhile unless they also fix the more fundamental issue of making the universe feel like a thing you are actually exploring vs. just randomly flitting around.

On a mechanical level, the lack of variety in the gameplay loop is pretty blatant. It's pretty clear that the resources on planets were homogenized (plutonium for all!) to simplify things, probably because they ran out of time to build something more complex. This is frustratingly pervasive in a bunch of different aspects of the game though. Different ships are not really different aside from number of inventory slots. Alien interactions are utterly trivialized. Transmissions will have text suggesting they come from different planets but always lead you to something on the same planet. The "code-cracking' puzzles are incredibly limited in variety (I've only encountered two different kinds, both completely uninteresting). The interfaces for everything (inventory, trading, uploading discoveries, flight, space combat, ground combat, even quitting the game!) are functional but clunky to the point of being annoying. Individually these could be called "polish" issues, but taken as a whole it's hard to appreciate any aspect of the game as being well-crafted.

On the whole the game is certainly a unique experience and despite the gripes, I enjoy it enough to keep playing (and crossing my fingers that they make the exploration part of it better, hopefully retroactively to previous discoveries). But at the same time I would say most of the criticism I've seen in recent days has been totally justified in terms of the value proposition here.

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clush

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@theht said:
@mub said:

i believe the issue was the developers straight up lied about key features in the game and theres a comprehensive list of promotional material that gives a flat out wrong idea of what the core game is actually like

Some people don't like being lied to

Lied or overshot on what they could realistically implement? Because lying is to intentionally obfuscate and deceive. Having ideas and plans only to realize "oh fuck we can't actually do that," isn't the same thing.

Well at some point it becomes the same thing. If you voice your vision and ideas but remain silent when it becomes clear that none of that will actually make it, one can definitely call it lying.

The ambitions might've been in good faith, but riding out the hype train without ever stopping to say 'well, this is what we actually managed to do' is poor judgment at best, but can also easily be explained as straight up deception.

You can realize that you can't actually do a lot of stuff all you want, it's what you communicate about it that matters.

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spraynardtatum

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No Man's Sky is a strange beast. There are a lot of really interesting aspects about it that all but been forgotten post release. It's seriously incredible how big this thing is. It's also seriously incredible that planets aren't giant messes. Who knows what is truly missing from the game and what merely hasn't been found yet. There are the obvious omissions that are undeniable in that reddit post but some simply aren't truly known if they're missing yet. 18 Quintilian planets and we seem sure after two weeks that we know that giant monsters simply don't exist in the game and so on.

I love it. I seriously love the game and think it's a work of staggering art.

There is obvious room for improvement and I think we've been quick to misjudge No Man's Sky because of its full retail price and popularity before release. I really am enjoying warping between systems and scanning different species while upgrading my equipment.

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OurSin_360

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Wait, what did they lie about? Only thing that seemed a bit deceiving was the multiplayer which is still technically true, you just cant see them in game. Otherwise the game is exactly what i thought it would be just with survival elements and resource gathering. You still get to the center of the universe (even if its damn near impossible) and also the center of the galaxy(ies). When i saw the game i was wondering what the hype was and never really saw anything that seemed to justify it being 60usd instead of like 30 or something.

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superscatman

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@oursin_360: https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4y1h9i/wheres_the_no_mans_sky_we_were_sold_on_a_big_list/

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GiantLizardKing

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For me the UI of this game made it unplayable. Also the performance. Hey at least it gave me the incentive to learn how the refund process worked.

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deactivated-5f90eabee6bba

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Mean what you say! Don't lie!

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Party

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#31  Edited By Party

I dunno. I get the idea that we should have thicker skin and expect marketing to be overblown (if it's too good to be true, it probably is). However, I think back to to the times where the marketing for a game and the actual game itself have been in concert with each other, and it's awesome. I remember the hype steadily building for Mass Effect 2, Batman: Arkham City, The Last of Us, or Metal Gear Solid 2 and then the games subsequently delivering on that hype (and sometimes even surpassing expectations) and that is a fantastic feeling. Riding the hype train is a real bummer when it the game ends up being disappointing, but it's pretty incredible when the game is as a good or better than the marketing says it is. We who are more familiar with the ins and outs of the industry should probably be more careful with marketing, but I think it's still fun and rewarding to get excited about a game prior to release due to marketing.

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matatat

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#32  Edited By matatat

Here's the thing, it's not lying. If the game was already out and they were saying that features were there when they weren't, then that's lying (and lawfully punishable). That's how software development and other product development works. You start with a plan for features. You work with those features and see what is feasible and what isn't. Not spreading the word about your product before it's released can be a huge risk. Is it the best way to advertise? Not really. But it's business. And the weird part is that many video game fans take it so personally (as they do with everything it seems). People are just sour because they were sold on ideas and not reality.

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Mirado

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#33  Edited By Mirado

@oursin_360:Beyond multiplayer (which is only in the game in any way, shape, or form if you consider a single player game with leaderboards (i.e. naming things) a multiplayer experience), they whiffed on a ton of things:

  1. Ships are identical. They should have been broken into three classes with different attributes beyond number of slots (speed, handling, shield strength, weapon strength), but that was either taken out at some point or never implemented.
  2. You were supposed to be able to make large scale changes to the galaxy, such as destroying a space station, and that would carry over to other player's games. But that was either taken out at some point or never implemented.
  3. A ton of systems were supposed to be far more complex; crafting would have been like Minecraft (able to try and discover your own formulas from trial and error), factions would have major fleet battles and choosing which one to side with in general would be a factor in how you play, etc. But all of that that was either taken out at some point or never implemented.
  4. More depth and variety to the exploration; ringed planets, crashed giant freighters surrounded by drones, hacking into facilities, and creatures that change their environment by knocking down trees or kicking up dust were all either mentioned or actually shown on video at one point. Again, all of that was either taken out at some point or never implemented.

Now, I figured 99% of this shit wouldn't come to pass when they kept showing what seemed like the same demo over and over again, so my expectation levels remained low (and hence my fun was higher than average). But if Hello Games committed a sin, it's poor communication that what they were showing and what they were saying was not representative of the final product. As posted, Reddit's got a big list. I think trying to mine every word Sean said for meaning is perhaps a bit unfair, but that's why people show off demos with a burly PR person sitting behind them, ready to club them in the head if they start to go full Molyneux. Never go full Molyneux unless you want to find yourself in this situation.

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spraynardtatum

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All I know is I now have a beautiful game that allows me to travel the universe. I can land my ship on planets and scan an insane variety of creatures and collect weird resources to fuel my travels. It's seriously unbelievable.

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Driadon

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My two cents on the issue are fairly simple: people need to think about marketing and be smart with their dollar. This doesn't excuse some of the many design decisions made for the game or the words that has come out from Sean about the game, but it does mean that I'm not angry about it because I wanted to see what the final product looked like before I spent money on it, even though I was sold on just the idea of land-on-planet-see-pretty-things-explore-planet-to-see-more-pretty-things. The games industry as a whole buys into this zeitgeist that they need to be up to date with the most recent things generally causes mass hysteria and over dramatized reactions either way, be it good or bad, which shouldn't be acceptable.

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OurSin_360

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#36  Edited By OurSin_360

@mirado: Again it doesn't seem like "lies" just stuff that didn't make the final game, it explains why the game got delayed so many times. Depending on how long they support it all that stuff could be patched in. Seems like they should have just been more open with the development process like most indie developers are, but i guess they were being published and marketed like they were some triple A developer which really worked against them in the court of public opinion. Also keeping the "mystery" kinda worked against them as well when they never explain that certain things didn't make the final game.

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Jorbit

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I think the line is drawn when there are actual bullet points listed by the developer of things that will be in the game. If those things are removed, that's fine, but that should be communicated before launch. People are buying the game based on what they think is included.

I don't think there was ill-will from the developers on this. I just think that communication was absolutely terrible.

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pickassoreborn

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Quick tip. All that E3 gameplay you'll see often isn't really gameplay. It's scripted to the nth degree to give false hope and whip up the hooting crowds into a frenzy. We've been through this for many E3s - don't take any of it as gospel and use the largest piece of salt you can get your hands on.

The E3 stuff Murray demonstrated was obviously scripted due to - well - the nature of the game being procedural. You couldn't just chance upon a perfect space battle or a planet with the right kind of creatures. Another thing to point out is in a universe which is almost infinite with billions of planets, Murray could have just said "Well, you haven't been to that part of the universe yet, so you won't experience what I'm experiencing - if you'll even ever experience it, that is..."

It makes me kind of sad to see that E3 stuff in hindsight and think how cool it would have been to play the game they were actually showing to people. I hope that future updates to the game actually add the things that were sold to us from the get-go. I'm enjoying the game as a Galactic Walking And Looking Simulator 2016 although I would have dearly loved to have taken part in those epic space battles we were shown.

Also the centre of the universe YouTube reveals. Man. If ever there was evidence that the game was unfinished, there's exhibit A right there.

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You expect bullshit and hyperbole from people like Kaz or Reggie, and are instinctually distrustful, but when the head of an indie dev says something about their game you're inclined to trust them. I think that's part of the issue right there. I don't think it was malicious on Hello Games part, I think they honestly did want and expect all that stuff to be in there, it's just they got pinched by the deadline (which had already been pushed back). What's worse to me than the actual lack of features is the general bugginess of the game, both on console and PC.

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pickassoreborn

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#40  Edited By pickassoreborn

@hippie_genocide said:

You expect bullshit and hyperbole from people like Kaz or Reggie, and are instinctually distrustful, but when the head of an indie dev says something about their game you're inclined to trust them. I think that's part of the issue right there. I don't think it was malicious on Hello Games part, I think they honestly did want and expect all that stuff to be in there, it's just they got pinched by the deadline (which had already been pushed back). What's worse to me than the actual lack of features is the general bugginess of the game, both on console and PC.

Yep, actually answered a question to my blog post regarding this. Bullshottery feels more like the domain of AAA instead of indie dev - although the fact the game's been marketed as AAA only saddens me to think that Murray might have been pushed to hype the game somewhat. I hate to think he had an excuse of the infinite universe where "anything could happen" and that legimised his tall tales.

Loading Video...

Edit - just watched the video above with the first five trailers and makes me even more sad. Check out the lightning-quick speed in which you enter planetary atmospheres and land. That bit with the massive crashed ship on the planet too - I had hoped you could salvage stuff from that ship, but nope. Oh, and that portal to another planet? Jeez. So much promise in those trailers. :(

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Eurobum

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The most recent Gamers With Jobs podcast has a beautiful moment at the beginning where Sean basically says "since when did we care so much what people said? or trailers?" and everyone on the show just quietly agrees then moves on to talking about what No Man's Sky the game is like. This was laugh out loud funny to me and a reminder that you can find like-minded individuals if you just take a small step outside the "Core Circle" of game fans. There are many, many people out there who are in fact totally even-handed! They can both a) criticize relevant parties for poor communication and b) appreciate the game on it's own merits.

It's hard to talk about this without making people angry, but at the end of the day, there are people like @mub mentioned, who don't like being lied to, and there are people like me, who don't care what anyone says, or shows about a game, and will play it to find out what's what in the end. If I am not mistaken, there are a host of other types of legitimate reactions too! :D

Long before Peter Moylneux became infamous, we already knew "don't listen to sales people". And yet we still do.

Long before the Kill Zone 2 trailer, we already knew "don't believe in trailers". And yet we still do.

I think what's funniest particularly about the games angle is how Shawn Murray's positivity is somehow an "evil" trait, like being excited about your game makes you terrible. Do me a favour and watch actors and directors talking about the latest shit movie they made. When you read the comments, how many are up in arms about their "positivity"? Either real or fake, that's just how people talk about the stuff they made. I feel there is a real tension between "What We Should Expect In The Real World" and "What We Want From A Better World". Pure honestly is a nice idea, but since it's never going to exist, maybe you should build yourself to deal with reality? Perhaps not the right answer for everyone.

To end an already overly long post, I think there are a lot of people out there who just believe in some sort of messed up "Batman" style justice where "liars" need to be "punished" and of course, no question, these people are the right judges.

Great post. Don't stop just there. Yes we live in a society of lies, it is the least violent way to redistribute wealth, after all. But at the same time we need mechanisms to protect us and an education how to appreciate truth and honesty. To guard against cheaters and lairs social animals have a memory, that allows us not to make the same mistake twice and avoid those who fooled us. In the grand scheme of things 60 bucks is nothing compared to more insidious and long term cons, like games that exploit our psych-vulnerabilies and lead people to spend thousands of man-hours in a stupid, brain dead, unhealthy and repetitive second "job", or mobile games that manipulate you to set an alarm every 3 hours. The most insidious of lies and cheats are the least obvious, to the point where the people being fooled don't understand and don't realize they are being taking advantage of. This is also where ethics become difficult, sometimes (like in case of all the vices) it becomes impossible to protect people from themselves.

However a better society still needs (public) institutions that have the means, the memory and the record to that tell us how it is, organizations that protect consumer rights, even just so that the few people can be helped who are willing to entertain a thought, rather than surrender all thought to entertainment. We also need smart journalist, not just relate-able guinea pigs and youtubers.

There is nothing wrong with pure honesty and truth, or even little efforts to be more true and more honest, but like all excellence it takes education and experience in scientific method and the rigor of logic. Giving up on honesty - is a lie you were lead to belive and now perpetuate. Using batman as a staw-man argument.

Truth is the only thing that two people can share and mutually appreciate by virtue of their sense and wit, thus enriching their lives, even love and intimacy is subjective and inferior in that regard. We can of course also share emotions, but they depend to much on our age, circumstances, body-chemisty, mood and likeness, whereas truth is universal. It even bridges centuries once committed to writing, though it can be drowned out by the white noise of advertisement, entertainment, faux-news. It is down to us to decide of how to strike a balance between the two, how much or our time do those things consume, how much do you pay for textbooks and how much for Witcher novels.

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deactivated-5c295850623f7

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@pickassoreborn: @superfriend: The only bad thing I saw in those videos / game footage was the rampaging dinosaur and portals Everything else looks exactly like what I got at release, sans maybe a tiny bit of visual fidelity? "Missing" features is a bit of a grey area because things can change during development, we all know that. As someone who's been following FF15 for 10 years, none of this is new.

I'm with OP. We can't just have fun with games anymore. We see a need to obsess about releases and be hyper critical of everything developers have to say so when we're disappointed or the messaging is a little off we have an excuse to feel entitled and personally attacked. Because frankly, that's what all this fake backlash and reaction videos have felt like. The internet needed something to be up in arms about and NMS came at the perfect time, with just the right amount of sound bites to make pithy memes with.

Like, unless something is literally a burning trash fire than sure, but people getting up in arms about NMS's "missing" features or a boring game loop need to chill out. It's not enough to just dislike something nowadays.

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Shindig

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#43  Edited By Shindig

It makes me wonder how Hello Games wanted this game's content to be doled out. I think Jeff commented on it feeling like something early access but, with Sony pushing it, it has to hit retail shelves at retail prices.

Totalbiscuit has a video about this game's hype and, whilst Sean Murray's certainly at fault (for the time being?) for his quotes, the media haven't helped by taking a ball and running with it for the sake of clicks.

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pickassoreborn

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@mikachops: Forgot to mention that super-fast warp drive stuff too. Go check that out on the video.

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#45  Edited By ArtisanBreads

It is a bit funny to me to see Murray and Hello Games get some defenders when basically no one would ever defend Peter Molyneux for example. People acting like this is some new thing are way off in that regard. It's the exact same thing. Personally I like Molyneux and defended his ambition (I would Murray's as well) if be critical of how he over sold the game. It is the same deal here but there's certainly more willing defenders for some reason.

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Whitestripes09

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#46  Edited By Whitestripes09

New IPs have a lot of pressure on expectations, especially after a shiny opening trailer, but usually this pressure is alleviated by developers showcasing what you can and can't do in this game. This at least shows to your potential buyers what your product is like. Sean Murray essentially just went on stage, showed a colorful trailer with spaceships and dinosaurs, and then said in a bunch of vague words what his game was about. He also lied, let's make that clear, he blatantly lied about the whole multiplayer, amongst other things, and just backpedaled on everything, but if being "mistaken" is more correct for some people so be it. So followers of the game had every right to be disappointed because it didn't pan out the way the game was introduced to us.

I blame Hello Games and possibly even Sony for overselling of this game and putting false expectations and imagines in people's minds of what this game really is, which just a boring sandbox that feels like it's not even a complete product, which every critic of this game is pretty correct about and has nothing to do with blind following.

Let's not pretend Sean Murray is any different than Peter Molyneux or Todd Howard, they're all basically the same snake oil man just with a different mask who like to talk big about their games, but end up barely reaching levels of adequacy.

Considering all this though, I think people should be upset about this and we should demand from developers more instead of just being ok with mediocrity. There won't be any progression or advances made in this industry if we just decide to say "hey they worked hard enough, so give them the chance!" I'm sorry, but even if No Man's Sky was $20 I might have a hard time thinking about how bad I really want this game or not. There's no way I can justify paying $60 to a team of 15-20 people that may or may not have DLC that includes features that were promised, but I will also have to pay for said DLC? ...That's pretty inexcusable given the other great game developers out there that truly work hard AND deliver a fully complete game.

Not to mention that with Call of Duty and Madden, there's a clear expectation of what those games are going to play like, because fans know how these games play, don't want that to change, and are willing to pay the full price for it. it's a different kind of expectation that you would find from a new IP where there's no game to really compare it to because you haven't played it yet, you can just assume or theorize how it might play and then it's up to the developers to show the best to their abilities how it does play, which is definitely something they did very wrong with No Man's Sky.

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heatDrive88

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#47 heatDrive88  Online

Don't preorder video games, and stop watching trailers or reading preview material.

That's about the only advice I can give.

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I was pretty happy with the game even if it isn't the greatest thing in the world, but holy cow, I just watched those 5 trailers (only saw the first one and maybe third one) and yeah... I can see why people are a bit disappointed.

Lighting, materials, and overall render quality is much higher... not to mention the right algorithm of planets was chosen so there was appealing colors to everything (which isn't always, or even commonly the case) mixed with a ton of cool stuff I really dont' think is even in the game.

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NMS is the probably the best example of why developers and publishers can't do their own coverage. It's kinda good to see that game media is still relevant and needed actually.

The same media that repeatedly and liberally fed into the hype train, all the while failing to get straight answers from the developers and/or call them out for obviously impossible and unsubstantiated pie-in-the-sky promises? That games media?

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jay_ray

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@bojackhorseman said:

NMS is the probably the best example of why developers and publishers can't do their own coverage. It's kinda good to see that game media is still relevant and needed actually.

The same media that repeatedly and liberally fed into the hype train, all the while failing to get straight answers from the developers and/or call them out for obviously impossible and unsubstantiated pie-in-the-sky promises? That games media?

The same media in which one Brad Shoemaker on the bombcast last year basically stated exactly what NMS is; explained how it played and what the gameplay loop is.

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