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    The PC (Personal Computer) is a highly configurable and upgradable gaming platform that, among home systems, sports the widest variety of control methods, largest library of games, and cutting edge graphics and sound capabilities.

    I bought an Intel 7400 and GTX 1060 3GB PC. And I'm actually underwhelmed by the performance and looking to upgrade.

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    HarbinLights

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    I took the opportunity to finally have an entry level PC good enough for VR. And got it and soon after a VR Headset, an Oculus Rift.

    I don't regret it at all. It has been a great bargain and value for the money, and everything I had hoped for. I almost wish I took out a loan and bought an HMD and PC when it launched.

    But as far as VR performance I find it to only be... adequate. Something I definitely want to upgrade from in the future.

    Skryim VR vanilla seems to work just fine, for instance. But as soon as I add a few mods, which I need in order to enjoy Skyrim, I start to run into performance issues.

    With VRChat it's a constant struggle to maintain a good framerate and performance. As soon as anyone with an unoptimized avatar walks into the room, I'm reduced to a sickness inducing 5 fps or so. VRChat is a fantastic and completely addictive experience that makes me want to say "goodbye real world" when the rooms and people and framerate are great. Too often that is not the case and I'm down to a slideshow of VR sickness. I have a pretty high tolerance for VR sickness, I rode rollercoasters for hours, I run around at high speeds in games, I played Mario Kart Wii in Dolphin VR for 8 hours straight, no sickness. When I get 5 fps in VRChat, it destroys my stomach and I have to go lay down.

    Also New Retro Arcade Neon, which is a great little customizable arcade sandbox for my emulators and things. Where I can make custom posters and load my movies and things and walk around and play a game or five, or ten, or twenty. Definitely has performance issues on my meager PC trying to load all these cabinets and emulators and movies and things.

    Also I could see better performance in emulators in general. Like, I owned and have played like 300 hours in both consoles versions of Breath of the Wild, Wii U and Switch. I would like to try it in 4K with a stable fps, though. Even just playing Wii games in Dolphin VR can push my system a bit at times. Though that may be my settings being lacking.

    This is some more of my specs for those curious.

    No Caption Provided

    No Caption Provided

    It was a fantastic value for the money. But I think I need better. I can tell I'm pushing this system.

    So.. what should I upgrade first?

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    Justin258

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    How much RAM do you have? I woukd go for a better GPU first but that processor might not hold up so well in the long run.

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    HarbinLights

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    How much RAM do you have? I woukd go for a better GPU first but that processor might not hold up so well in the long run.

    Sadly, only 8 GB. On the positive side, I got all this in a pre-built PC for only $500!

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    Onemanarmyy

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    vortextk

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    #5  Edited By vortextk

    Simply put, you need a new graphics card. 8gb of ram is adequate and your processor is quite good for gaming though not bleeding edge. Your graphics card is a fine choice for pretty good 1080p gaming; it is at the low end of what is considered passable for VR. If you need more frames, 9/10 you need to upgrade your graphics card. I know nothing of dolphin vr and how the internal resolution scaler taps your card while running in VR and what's considered recommended gpus for that.

    You need to go for a higher end nvidia card. 1070/1070ti/1080/1080ti are your upgrade options. It's a sizable step up to a 1070, especially if you card is the 3gb version instead of the 6gb. You then get a minor boost to the ti, then the 1080, and another pretty sizable one to the 1080ti.

    *edit* Also 5 fps in VR chat? Actually 5? I don't think you're gonna solve that with any hardware changes unless something was literally dying in your system. That sounds like a driver/game issue.

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    Justin258

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    @andythemez:

    @justin258 said:

    How much RAM do you have? I woukd go for a better GPU first but that processor might not hold up so well in the long run.

    Sadly, only 8 GB. On the positive side, I got all this in a pre-built PC for only $500!

    $500 isn't a bad price for these machines but do yourselves a favor and take a look at your power supplies, even if you're not planning on buying new parts. Check the wattage, the brand, and the certification (80+ Silver, Gold, Platinum, etc.), do a bit of research and make sure those are decent power supplies. Power supplies are an easy way to go cheap because they're perhaps the least exciting parts in your PC but if they're shoddy, they can ruin everything else.

    As has been mentioned once, a 1060 3GB is decent for 1080p gaming but anything beyond that - higher resolutions, VR, and so on - you're going to need something with more oomph. I wouldn't go any less than a 1070. Amazon currently has an EVGA GTX 1070 for $450, which is the lowest those cards have been in months. Again, double check that power supply before buying a graphics card, if it's barely holding together what you've already got it might not hold up what you want to put into it. And check your case's measurements, too, make sure it will fit that card.

    That i5 7400 is fine, I guess, although honestly I think you should look into upgrading it too. It's certainly not going to give you anywhere near the same boost that a new GPU will, with some notable exceptions*, but it's still a little short of what I would put into a machine intended for VR. Graphics card first, if you still feel iffy on performance then CPU.

    *notable exceptions being stuff like heavily modded Skyrim and Minecraft, RTS's, 4X games, Total War, and so on, but unless you get super deep into those things an i5 7400 will probably be fine. Emulation is, from what I understand, often more processor intensive than anything, so you might not see the improvements you want when it comes to emulation with just a graphics card.

    8GB of DDR4 RAM should be fine. Just remember that the more stuff you have open, the more RAM is being taken up, the slower stuff will run, so don't have five Chrome tabs open while trying to play Battlefield V at max settings or something.

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    Sahalarious

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    Yeah man a 1060 isnt really vr ready even if it claims to be. Id go 1080 and maybe a newer processor. Upgrade that ram too. You can do things over time, big first step shoukd be the GPU

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    HarbinLights

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    #9  Edited By HarbinLights

    @gtb08 said:

    Yeah man a 1060 isnt really vr ready even if it claims to be. Id go 1080 and maybe a newer processor. Upgrade that ram too. You can do things over time, big first step shoukd be the GPU

    If that's the case, I'm probably better off waiting for Nvidia's new series. Rather than breaking the bank just on a $1000 graphics card.

    From personal experience, I would definitely say it is VR Ready and adequate, as advertised, but that there are many specific VR applications where it shows its limits. As in, adequate, but not ideal for many situations.

    @justin258 said:
    $500 isn't a bad price for these machines but do yourselves a favor and take a look at your power supplies, even if you're not planning on buying new parts. Check the wattage, the brand, and the certification (80+ Silver, Gold, Platinum, etc.), do a bit of research and make sure those are decent power supplies. Power supplies are an easy way to go cheap because they're perhaps the least exciting parts in your PC but if they're shoddy, they can ruin everything else.

    Yeah, I've heard that pre-builts often cheap out on the power supply, and that does make me very nervous. I don't want all my components to go bad because they were paired with a subpar PSU. Also, I have what I know is a very good power supply to replace it with, a Seasonic Snow Silent.

    It's this computer except that I only paid $500 for it on Black Friday.

    https://amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-580-023w-i5-7400-Graphics/dp/B077S27YLP/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1528375263&sr=8-3&keywords=HP+Pavillion+Power

    I don't suppose anyone would happen to know what kind of power supply they use? I was planning to upgrade to my Snow Silent on it as soon as I upgraded any other part.

    Also, what other parts would everyone here recommend? Any alternative to dropping down $1000 or so on a 1080? That's twice as much as I spent on this PC. AMD are usually the cheaper price-performance option. Would a AMD Radeon RX VEGA 64 be a noticeable improvement over my 1060 3 GB? It would definitely be noticeably cheaper than a 1080.

    Is a 1070 like you're recommending a better option than AMD? I definitely don't to go a 1080, that's super expensive.

    And also, given it is a Intel i5 7400 PC, that means it's using a LGA 1151 socket. Would it be worth upgrading to a i7-8700K?

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    vortextk

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    #10  Edited By vortextk

    1k? Are we talking american dollars? 1080's are mid to high 500's on newegg right now. 1080tis are more but still sub 800.

    You also can not use the 8xxx CPUS just because you have that socket. From wikipedia: "As a result, desktop Coffee Lake CPUs are not compatible with the 100 (original Skylake) and 200 (Kaby Lake) series chipsets.[9] Similarly, 300 series chipsets only support Coffee Lake and are not compatible with Skylake and Kaby Lake CPUs." I again say you don't need to change that processor, it's fine and it requires a total overhaul of your system to do it.

    Also, was unaware this was a prebuilt until you linked it. That could cause issues with the power supply even being upgradeable or the case able to fit everything you need. None of that is guaranteed with a proprietary pc and case like that.

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    HarbinLights

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    #12  Edited By HarbinLights

    @vortextk said:

    1k? Are we talking american dollars? 1080's are mid to high 500's on newegg right now. 1080tis are more but still sub 800.

    I must be mistaken, then. Probably was that way last I checked and cryptocurrency was particularly high.

    Sorry about that. You're absolutely right, just checked Amazon and they were only $600 or so. A lot better than I had remember. I should have looked before speaking.

    As for computer cases, I have several that I've collected over the years. So I can just move the components out and put the motherboard in one of my nice Corsair cases, right? And sorry for the misunderstanding about motherboard compatibility. I was an AMD person for a long time, until I upgraded a few years ago to a 2500K. I'm used to sockets being simple with AMD. :/

    So where do I go from here? Is this pre-built totally useless for upgrading and I have to start from scratch?

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    vortextk

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    It depends if that case can fit stuff into it versus the stuff in it being taken out and put into a new case. I don't know if either will work. Friend wanted to upgrade his alienware; his case was tiny and couldn't fit a new card. He got a new case. His power supply was funky as hell and couldn't be taken for another pc because it had some crazy hard wires going to the case itself. He ended up just building a cheap new functional system for gaming because almost that entire alienware was useless for parts.

    Moral is, if either of those first options work, you should be fine. If the motherboard/psu is proprietary for only that case and the case can't host the kind of upgrades you want, things get complicated.

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    mikewhy

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    1080s are still ~$800, at least in Canada.

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    big_denim

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    Get a gtx 1080. That's what I have in the computer my Vive is hooked up to and it runs great. There's only been a handful of games I've noticed performance issues with and that appears to be related to just poor optimization on the developer's part.

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    OpusOfTheMagnum

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    #16  Edited By OpusOfTheMagnum

    I would caution against the “just upgrade your GPU” suggestions. An i7 is the recommended spec for VR, and it makes a difference. On top of that, especially going forward you will be bottlenecks potentially by your CPU.

    If you’re mostly happy with performance but don’t want to upgrade everything at once for money reasons, I would suggest a same gen i7 now, which will still be plenty going forward, and wait for an 11 series nvidia or see what AMD’s next gen stuff is like. If VR takes off, the requirements are not going to go down and in fact may go up. A lot of VR games are compromising on image quality because of just how demanding the workload of stereoscopic rendering is. The CPU requirements shouldn’t change much however and a 7th gen i7 will make sure a higher end 11 series card won’t bottleneck, which is a very real thing. In favor of the CPU upgrade however many new VR features like “3D” audio are at least at the moment CPU dependent, so if more of those kinds of features get refined to the point of being common place, you may see more hit to your CPU.

    If you’re less concerned with a long term solution however the 1080 now would be a good way to go for at least 2-3 years before you start hitting up against some minor to moderate performance issues.

    Another big point: your CPU is almost certainly the bottleneck in the emulator stuff, until you’re just pushing a shit ton of pixels like 4K. But even then, a CPU upgrade was the difference between 720p BotW and 4k BotW for me. Granted that was early in the emulation for that game when it was still pretty rough and was regularly being optimized to run better and better.

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    HarbinLights

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    @vortextk said:

    It depends if that case can fit stuff into it versus the stuff in it being taken out and put into a new case. I don't know if either will work. Friend wanted to upgrade his alienware; his case was tiny and couldn't fit a new card. He got a new case. His power supply was funky as hell and couldn't be taken for another pc because it had some crazy hard wires going to the case itself. He ended up just building a cheap new functional system for gaming because almost that entire alienware was useless for parts.

    Moral is, if either of those first options work, you should be fine. If the motherboard/psu is proprietary for only that case and the case can't host the kind of upgrades you want, things get complicated.

    From the sound of this, it's intimdating to even try. I hope it is doable. Sounds like a lot of trouble.

    On the other hand, considering what people are saying about pre-built PSUs, maybe I need to or my whole PC could get fried.

    Well, I'll at least take a look inside of it and see what I can do next I feel like it and have it off not doing anything. So, if I can, what would be the best CPU I could probably put in its socket as an upgrade?

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    Zurv

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    the gtx 1060 3gig is the gimped version. It isn't just less ram but the gpu isn't the same as the 1060 6gig.

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    mike

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    #19  Edited By mike

    @harbinlights said:

    From the sound of this, it's intimdating to even try. I hope it is doable. Sounds like a lot of trouble.

    On the other hand, considering what people are saying about pre-built PSUs, maybe I need to or my whole PC could get fried.

    Well, I'll at least take a look inside of it and see what I can do next I feel like it and have it off not doing anything. So, if I can, what would be the best CPU I could probably put in its socket as an upgrade?

    The PSU you have might not even fit in this thing. This is one of the many reasons you see people recommending against prebuilts, they are commonly built with the lowest spec/lowest quality parts available with proprietary sizes and connectors. They can be difficult or even impossible to upgrade.

    Upgrading this CPU is really the last thing you should be considering. If you are going to go that far then just sell that thing and buy something that isn't a prebuilt that will last you longer and put you in a better position for future upgrades. You can consider some simple upgrades like RAM (even though your PC probably only has two slots which are occupied by 2x4, so you would have to buy a 2x8 kit and only end up with 16gb), and potentially a GPU/PSU upgrade at most. I'm sure your prebuilt came with a 300w low quality PSU which is barely enough to run the PC as it is, which is what is usually seen on prebuilts like this.

    When you are looking at the PSU, see if it's a standard size and then take a look at the connector and make sure it's also a standard 24 pin. Sometimes these prebuilts have proprietary PSUs, connectors, and other parts that make upgrading anything a major pain in the ass.

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    HarbinLights

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    #20  Edited By HarbinLights

    @mike said:

    The PSU you have might not even fit in this thing. This is one of the many reasons you see people recommending against prebuilts, they are commonly built with the lowest spec/lowest quality parts available with proprietary sizes and connectors. They can be difficult or even impossible to upgrade.

    Wait, I thought PSUs and motherboards were universal in terms of the plugins they use?

    Do you mean the case or things like the molex? Do HP computers not use standard PSU inputs? Surely at least the GPU will use a standard 4-pin, right?

    @mike said:

    When you are looking at the PSU, see if it's a standard size and then take a look at the connector and make sure it's also a standard 24 pin. Sometimes these prebuilts have proprietary PSUs, connectors, and other parts that make upgrading anything a major pain in the ass.

    ....

    What?!? Are you serious?

    It's like they're actively trying to assault PC builders. Why would you use proprietary power connections so that nobody can use a standard PSU with it?

    The whole reason why I bought this thing was because it was cheaper than I could have built it myself.

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    mike

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    #21  Edited By mike

    @harbinlights: These PCs aren't intended for builders, they are meant for people who will buy them off the shelf and never open them or attempt to upgrade anything. They are built to be small and cheap, that's it. The GPU should take a standard power connector, but the PSU probably won't have any extra 6-pin or 8-pin connectors, so make sure you take that into account when considering any possible upgrades. The PSU most likely has the bare minimum amount of connectors it needs for the way the prebuilt was configured and nothing more.

    The biggest thing to look out for in prebuilt PCs is a non-standard PSU and motherboard with a proprietary power connector. Don't assume anything will just fit like it would in a normal PC. You may also run into clearance issues with a new GPU since prebuilts are built to be tiny. You may have to go with a Mini variant of a card, if a replacement will fit at all.

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    HarbinLights

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    @mike said:

    @harbinlights: These PCs aren't intended for builders, they are meant for people who will buy them off the shelf and never open them or attempt to upgrade anything. They are built to be small and cheap, that's it.

    The biggest thing to look out for in prebuilt PCs is a non-standard PSU and motherboard with a proprietary power connector. Don't assume anything will just fit like it would in a normal PC. You may also run into clearance issues with a new GPU since prebuilts are built to be tiny. You may have to go with a Mini variant of a card, if a replacement will fit at all.

    I think my first order of things, given that, will be to see if I can fit all of my parts into my big Corsair Tower and if all the plugs will be compatible with the motherboard.

    If nothing else, I may at least be able to salvage the GPU and hard drive and move them into a new case with a new motherboard and better CPU. Then worry about upgrading the GPU later. I have a pretty gigantic Corsair tower that should easily have room for everything, if they will actually plug in.

    Would I be able to upgrade the motherboard to something that is compatible with both a 8700K, and the 7400 that I have? If so, I could just start off by upgrading the motherboard and put everything else off to a later date. I dunno if Intel does anything at all backwards compatible like AMD does. Seems like Intel has a very bad track record for compatibility period, makes me want to go back to AMD. Anyway, I know that a motherboard I could get on Newegg or Amazon would at least be compatible with my Snow Silent PSU and Corsair case.

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    mike

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    #23  Edited By mike

    @harbinlights: It looks like that motherboard only supports 3 different CPUs, and you can only upgrade to a i7-7700.

    https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/hp-pavilion-power-580-000-desktop-pc-series/16425610/model/17345625/document/c05355651

    Like I was saying, these things aren't built to be upgraded. My advice is not to waste even more money by trying to upgrade this thing. Just try to deal with it for now until you can put something else together, but I don't think a single part from this prebuilt should be reused or salvaged. Nothing here is worth saving unless you want to keep the hard drive for backups.

    The good news is that the motherboard does look like it has a standard 24 pin power connector, so at least there is that. But again, I wouldn't throw any money at this thing.

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    vortextk

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    #24  Edited By vortextk

    @harbinlights: As you've gotten word from everyone by now, upgrading that is risky. It's why anyone that builds computers would never go to back to a pre-built for that type of system because it just introduces trouble. There are side companies that do this kind of thing, where you specify the parts you want from their build page lists and then they build it just as you would straight from parts, it just costs you more.

    Again, the VR thing running at like single or super low double digit frames? That seems to be an actual issue, not weak hardware. As for everything else, do you reaallllyyy need to upgrade that badly? The farther we get in talks, the easier it would be to just sell the system for as much as you can get and build a cheap system from there.

    This is a good read and they sum our points well while having the system on hand to test and look at:

    https://www.pcbuildadvisor.com/hp-pavilion-power-580-023w-gaming-tower-review/

    One of the most important bits for you is at the bottom, about upgrading, summarized:

    They have pretty much the same advice as given here. You only have 2 ram slots, so you can't buy additional ram, you have to COMPLETELY replace it if you want more with bigger single sticks.

    The power supply is a 300watt generic "oh god I'm barely holding on". This mandates you get a new power supply for any kind of graphics card upgrade, which means you need this for a new GPU at minimum, but as they say your case is compact and may not fit most big cards anywhere. There are high end cards made in compact sizes just for computers like this but you may just need a new case.

    They don't talk about motherboard specifically so I'm inclined to believe the motherboard is some standard variation, but in a comment they are talking to another individual about replacing a motherboard that got spilled on and they said to look for a micro atx. This means you could probably fit a new micro atx motherboard in there if you wanted OR have the ability to take this motherboard(+ram/cpu) into a new case that will fit micro atx boards and mostly all cases that support any kind of atx board (the most common?) will fit atx/micro atx/mini atx so no worries .

    Also, it says you have one free sata port so a SSD could do some work for you in the meantime as a small but powerful upgrade. Yeah it's not gonna really change your frames, but it's measurably one of the best feeling upgrades for overall usage.

    Goodluck! You have some decisions to make but there are plenty of people -anywhere- that can help you when you decide.

    And I still want to say for my part, that card needs upgrading so much more badly than that processor.

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    Lumbermancer

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    I have 6600 and 1060 6GB, and I got "High" in that FF15 benchmark, not tried VR. Basically with Intel CPU's second number is more important, and the 3GB version of your GPU is a weaker model, not only by the virtue of having less RAM.

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    HarbinLights

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    #26  Edited By HarbinLights

    @mike said:

    @harbinlights: It looks like that motherboard only supports 3 different CPUs, and you can only upgrade to a i7-7700.

    https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/hp-pavilion-power-580-000-desktop-pc-series/16425610/model/17345625/document/c05355651

    Like I was saying, these things aren't built to be upgraded. My advice is not to waste even more money by trying to upgrade this thing. Just try to deal with it for now until you can put something else together, but I don't think a single part from this prebuilt should be reused or salvaged. Nothing here is worth saving unless you want to keep the hard drive for backups.

    The good news is that the motherboard does look like it has a standard 24 pin power connector, so at least there is that. But again, I wouldn't throw any money at this thing.

    Ah, you went to a lot of trouble looking that up for me, thanks. That's very good to know.

    @vortextk said:
    The power supply is a 300watt generic "oh god I'm barely holding on". This mandates you get a new power supply for any kind of graphics card upgrade, which means you need this for a new GPU at minimum, but as they say your case is compact and may not fit most big cards anywhere. There are high end cards made in compact sizes just for computers like this but you may just need a new case.

    Yikes! And that shouldn't be a problem because I have several highly rated 750W and above PSUs, including my Seasonic Snow Silent I'm proud of, which is 80 Plus Platinum rated.

    I have many very nice PSUs and cases I've collected over the years. From Corsair, Antec, Enermax, and Seasonic. I think I have like a dozen of both, now. I don't skimp out on PSUs at all, all of them are either from Corsair, Antec, Enermax, or Seasonic, and all are highly rated. I always look at PSUs and cases as an investment I want to be future-proof.

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