Persona
Depicting occult practices, fey heroes, and demons crawling out of the woodwork, Persona is Atlus' largest, most successful, and most acclaimed franchise. Beginning as a spinoff of the Shin Megami Tensei franchise, the series developed a sizable following in the West after Persona 3, and expanded into non-JRPG genres after Persona 4.
Persona Purchasing dilemma
So, there's a local indie game shop that I frequent in my area and the other day I walked in and saw, to my surprise, that they had some brand new copies of games from the Shin Megami Tensei series. Of interest for myself were copies of Persona 3 FES for 30 bucks and Persona 4 for 50 bucks. My problem is that I'm somewhat low on funds at the moment and am really torn as to whether or not I should pony up and pay the extra $20 or go ahead and try out FES first. So for those who've played both games, which one should I get? The other SMT games they had were Nocturne and Digital Devil Saga 1&2 for $40 each...would any of you recommend me getting either of those instead.
I played both FES and Persona 4 and I think the latter is a improvement in just about every single way. In FES you can only control the main character but in P4 you have control over the whole party. Characters are prefernce but I feel that Persona 4 has a much better cast.
First, there are cheaper alternatives on the internet. You should really look around on Amazon or Ebay or something for better deals.
But if you can only buy it from that store, I'd say get Persona 3 FES if you're planning on eventually playing both. Persona 4 is a technical improvement in almost every way and it would be hard to go play Persona 3 FES if you played Persona 4 before it. If you're not planning on playing both, you should get Persona 4.
Also, this should have been posted in the correct forum. Either the Persona 4 forums or the Persona franchise forum. (unless this was associated with the "General Discussion bug".
SMT: Nocturne takes no prisoners; it will most likely end you. I wouldn't start there, when Persona does such a good job of making it clear how the core SMT gameplay works (also, the first two games in the main SMT series have never made it into English afaik, whereas Persona 1 just had a remake and hopefully 2 will as well). Finally, DDS is a cool series with an interesting storyline and art style, but it's also a bit of a grind with rather less story and development. DDS and Nocturne are more like 'try before you buy', or at least read up on them and see if they're of interest. Persona 3 and 4 are much more attractive as an introduction, and I'd recommend them to practically anyone.
As someone who's played all of those games, I'd recommend you start with Persona 3 FES. While Nocturne is my favorite out of those 5, going into it without any prior experience with any SMT game is difficult. Pick up P3FES first, see if the whole demon/persona system appeals to you, and once you beat that, go for either P4 if you want a more character-driven story, or Nocturne if you want deeper gameplay. If you're still not satisfied with those 3 (and most people should be, given that all 3 games take around or over 100 hours each to beat), try DDS1.
I kind of agree with the notion that you should play 3 before 4 because it's really hard to get used to FES's weird mechanics, but at the same time I would have been so much more lost playing 3 first. For whatever reason you can't look at what spells on your persona do, unless you're in a battle. So like if you go into FES without knowing what the hell Bufu means, you're going to be really confused.
" Also, this should have been posted in the correct forum. Either the Persona 4 forums or the Persona franchise forum. (unless this was associated with the "General Discussion bug"."
I definitely went through the Persona forums to put it in there because I wanted to make sure I didn't put this in the general discussion or off-topic boards. Either I completely messed up or that bug caught my post. But thanks for the insight, I am interested in playing both games, but am definitely more interested in 4 after watching some of the Endurance Run. And I live in Canada so the only way I can really get it is off of Amazon and they're charging 50 bucks as well. And I've been burned on Ebay so i prefer to not go that route.
@Trilogy said:
"Persona 4 is 20 bucks at gamestop.com right now. "
I would, but ya, I live in Canada so unfortunately that doesn't help me out too much. Thanks for the heads up though.
Both. Definitely.
I'd say go with persona 3. I actually hate many of the mechanics introduced on persona 4. Like the guided approach it takes in many segments (rescuing people), where you can't deviate much from the planning the game made already for you, it becomes a lot linear. Also there are some mini-games (like the arcana bonus after some fights) where it becomes bothersome as there can come some not so nice side effects on you.
Besides this, the game starts much harder, as one of the the first bosses has an attack that can kill your party in one shot.
Also Persona 3 FES has much more content, still Persona 4 is a awesome game!
@Jeust said:
" I'd say go with persona 3. I actually hate many of the mechanics introduced on persona 4. Like the guided approach it takes in many segments (rescuing people), where you can't deviate much from the planning the game made already for you, it becomes a lot linear
Huh? How is P4 any more guided then P3? Both rely on a calender-based schedule which pushes you forward to a boss fight, followed by a story scene. You don't get more freedom in either one.
P4 just has more story events which help fight the tedium of repetition. P3 could have used that.Persona 4 just feels a lot more tense because of the time limit. And the plot doesn't kick in, in P3 until 3/4th through the game.
. Also there are some mini-games (like the arcana bonus after some fights) where it becomes bothersome as there can come some not so nice side effects on you.
This is a really minor detail, which doesn't stand up to the tedious stuff in P3 like Yukari not curing charm when your entire party is inflicted by it.
Or the lack of a fast travel button.
Or the neverchanging aesthetic design of Tartarus.
Or the incredibly limited soundtrack selection within that godforsaken place.
Besides this, the game starts much harder, as one of the the first bosses has an attack that can kill your party in one shot. Also Persona 3 FES has much more content, still Persona 4 is a awesome game! "
Didn't have much trouble with Shadow Yukiko, neither did Jeff/Vinny and they're not the best Persona players in the world.
As for the ''more content ''part, I disagree. The reason Persona 3 takes longer then Persona 4 is simply because of stuff like interface issues, traveling time issues, Tartarus ETC. P4 has more ''event'' scenes, more stuff to do in town(fishing, part time jobs) more varied dungeons, more (and longer) social links and a much tighter UI(yay, I DON'T have to wait 7 seconds every time I hit triangle!).
And I feel the Answer ruins P3 for me. Personally? I hated it. It felt like fanfiction to me plastered on top of 25 hours of tedious dungeon grinding. And I was already sick of the dungeon part of P3 75% through the game.
Unless you have the time to drop on two 60-90 hour RPGs I say fuck it and just buy Persona 4. You also run the risk of getting burnt out on Persona games, so just skip 3.
You do have on Persona 3. In Persona 4 between the nights lost watching the tv to advance the story, the wasted time looking for clues to find the person in the otherworld, and afternoons lost grinding on the dungeons, you lose a lot of time that could be spent elsewhere.Huh? How is P4 any more guided then P3? Both rely on a calender-based schedule which pushes you forward to a boss fight, followed by a story scene. You don't get more freedom in either one.
On persona 3 you lose the day on the day of each full moon, and a minimum of a night for each section of Tartarus, which is much less that the time lost on the overall on P4.
P4 just has more story events which help fight the tedium of repetition. P3 could have used that.Persona 4 just feels a lot more tense because of the time limit. And the plot doesn't kick in, in P3 until 3/4th through the game.
that is true, but the S. Links that are fun to develop take many times the backseat.
This is a really minor detail, which doesn't stand up to the tedious stuff in P3 like Yukari not curing charm when your entire party is inflicted by it.
Or the lack of a fast travel button.
Or the neverchanging aesthetic design of Tartarus.
Or the incredibly limited soundtrack selection within that godforsaken place
But it is annoying specially when by change you get as a result of bad luck a lot of handicaps.
The awkward behaviour of your team mates still stays the same, and in some occasions there is no way to prevent it. If your MC is charmed, or enraged, for example, you can't give orders to your team mates if aren't already doing it, what leads to wrong decisions.
The lack of fast travel was bothersome, but the rest didn't subtract from the P3. I liked the game a lot.
Didn't have much trouble with Shadow Yukiko, neither did Jeff/Vinny and they're not the best Persona players in the world.
I don't know if it was shadow Yukiko, or the shadow Chie or a mid arc boss, but one did had an attack that killed my entire party within one round, and i weren't all that weak.
P3 had a lot of content, and took longer. I'm too tired to think of reason why, but it was a great and long experience. I've enjoyed it more than P4, even because for each good idea on the latter there is also a bad idea implemented. P3 was boring from time to time, but still it annoyed me less than P4. Also the calendar is smaller on P4 compared to P3.As for the ''more content ''part, I disagree. The reason Persona 3 takes longer then Persona 4 is simply because of stuff like interface issues, traveling time issues, Tartarus ETC. P4 has more ''event'' scenes, more stuff to do in town(fishing, part time jobs) more varied dungeons, more (and longer) social links and a much tighter UI(yay, I DON'T have to wait 7 seconds every time I hit triangle!).
So despite the fact that i'm playing P4, i still prefer P3 FES.
If he plays the two of them, he will get burnt out as the games vary in a small number of things. In a way is like Pokemon, as each game has small changes to their gameplay.Unless you have the time to drop on two 60-90 hour RPGs I say fuck it and just buy Persona 4. You also run the risk of getting burnt out on Persona games, so just skip 3.
If you played one, you played them all.
Those prices are pretty high, but considering how hard it is to find those games, especially P4, i guess it's not that much of a suprise. I've been looking for a copy of P4 for ages. Have not found one, seen lots of FES though.
Personally, i couldn't stand P3, and so i wasn't all that interested in P4. But then i tried it out, and it is now one of my favourite games of all time. The main difference i guess seems to be the overall setting and atmosphere of the two games. The mechanics and stuff weren't too bothersome for me, except maybe that annoying one where people get tired in Tartarus. Oh yeah, Tartarus being one massive dungeon also annoyed me.
"
You do have on Persona 3. In Persona 4 between the nights lost watching the tv to advance the story, the wasted time looking for clues to find the person in the otherworld, and afternoons lost grinding on the dungeons, you lose a lot of time that could be spent elsewhere.Huh? How is P4 any more guided then P3? Both rely on a calender-based schedule which pushes you forward to a boss fight, followed by a story scene. You don't get more freedom in either one.
On persona 3 you lose the day on the day of each full moon, and a minimum of a night for each section of Tartarus, which is much less that the time lost on the overall on P4.
Nights spent watching the tv were story advancements. P3 had plenty of them .
You mention losing days because of fighting in the dungeons, in P3 you lose nights. Besides even if what you say is true, I REALLY don't see what the differcnce between the two is.
You still get to decide when you enter the TV/Tartarus and when to do quests ETC. this seems like a really small nitpick and nothing compared to the massive list of tedious interface problems P3 has.
Also:
that is true, but the S. Links that are fun to develop take many times the backseat.
I have to disagree with this: it is much,much easier to max out everyone in P4. Social links are divided into day and night more fairly this time around and time spent working/raising social stats= a social link in P4. If you use a guide to max the social links in P4 first playthrough , you get to keep around 1 and a half free time if you follow it.
In P3 you lost far more days raising social stats like courage and diligence so even if you follow a guide, you may not make it . Its impossible without a guide
This is a really minor detail, which doesn't stand up to the tedious stuff in P3 like Yukari not curing charm when your entire party is inflicted by it.
Or the lack of a fast travel button.
Or the neverchanging aesthetic design of Tartarus.
Or the incredibly limited soundtrack selection within that godforsaken place
That's not the game's fault.
But it is annoying specially when by change you get as a result of bad luck a lot of handicaps.
YOU decide to take the 50% risk chance to get an arcana chance or not, that's like complaining that Hamaon screws you over by not hitting 100% of the time. its not bad game design, its not a flaw.
An AI that can't tell its heads from its ass Is
The awkward behaviour of your team mates still stays the same, and in some occasions there is no way to prevent it. If your MC is charmed, or enraged, for example, you can't give orders to your team mates if aren't already doing it, what leads to wrong decisions.
Uh, what?
You can directly control your characters in P4 so the AI isn't an issue there.
As for the bolded: No, the AI doesn't prioritize Status effects over HP and they don't prioritize the MC when it come to status effects. Even if you have them set at HEAL/SUPPORT they will probably cast a heal spell instead at someone with 55% HP.
If I was in control, I would never do something as rockstupid.
You haven't made counter arguments against the lack of music variety or aesthetic designThe lack of fast travel was bothersome, but the rest didn't subtract from the P3. I liked the game a lot.
There isn't a boss with an attack that can do that.
I don't know if it was shadow Yukiko, or the shadow Chie or a mid arc boss, but one did had an attack that killed my entire party within one round, and i weren't all that weak.
Mitsuo( the midway point boss)does have a spell that cast insta-kill your party if their inflicted with fear. This isn't bad game design, or tedious. its challenge.
P3 had a lot of content, and took longer. I'm too tired to think of reason why, but it was a great and long experience. I've enjoyed it more than P4, even because for each good idea on the latter there is also a bad idea implemented. P3 was boring from time to time, but still it annoyed me less than P4. Also the calendar is smaller on P4 compared to P3. So despite the fact that i'm playing P4, i still prefer P3 FES. "
That's.....not an argument.
What I said is factual.
Persona 4 has more social links, more events, more stuff to do in town, more social links, longer social links and a far less cumbersome UI. Thus, it has more content(Unless you count dungeon grinding and fighting with the UI)
Besides all the things you've mentioned so far about P4 , are really minor complaints. Something like ''Persona 4 has a minigame where you have a 50% chance to win'' isn't 1/4 as bad as'' In P3 you have to walk throughout the entire map the ENTIRE GAME''
@Shirogane said:
" Those prices are pretty high, but considering how hard it is to find those games, especially P4, i guess it's not that much of a suprise. I've been looking for a copy of P4 for ages. Have not found one, seen lots of FES though. Personally, i couldn't stand P3, and so i wasn't all that interested in P4. But then i tried it out, and it is now one of my favourite games of all time. The main difference i guess seems to be the overall setting and atmosphere of the two games. The mechanics and stuff weren't too bothersome for me, except maybe that annoying one where people get tired in Tartarus. Oh yeah, Tartarus being one massive dungeon also annoyed me. "
Did you play through the original instead of FES, like I did?
Jesus christ that dungeon theme will really be the bane of your existence after 50 hours of hearing the same monotonous theme OVER AND OVER.AGAIN
Its one thing to have one battle theme.
But to have one dungeon theme, is simply unforgiveable.
" @mutha3: For you each of my complaint can be petty and small, but to me they are big, so we'll have to agree in disagreeing as i'm not going to change my opinion any time soon bub. :p "I guess, but if you're gonna be recommending something to someone, you have to realize what the thing your talking about is to most people.
You can handwave away the fact that the AI is rock-stupid,that the game lacks fast-travel and the UI is a complete mess, but to most people find that stuff cumbersome. Its bad game design
Your complaints about P4 so far are that it doesn't give you enough days to social link between dungeons(not true, by the way) and that there is a minigame which you don't have to play which has a 50% failure rate. Neither of these 2 are bad game design deciscion
That doesn't mean you can't prefer P3 to P4, but when you're going to be recommending someone a 70+ hour RPG and look at these 2 games, its not difficult at all to see which one he'll probably like more.
I cannot realize what the thing, whatever thing your talking about, is to most people, just for me. That is what is called an opinion, it's personal.I guess, but if you're gonna be recommending something to someone, you have to realize what the thing your talking about is to most people.
And in P4 the AI isn't brighter, the lack of a fast-travel never really bother me in P3, as it probably won't for someone who doesn't know it from P4, and the UI was perfectly fine for me. You can argue about what most people will find, but in truth that only reflects your personal opinion about the game. That's why queries are made, to convey the general feeling of the public.You can handwave away the fact that the AI is rock-stupid,that the game lacks fast-travel and the UI is a complete mess, but to most people find that stuff cumbersome.
P4 has also bad design decisions. Things like:
- The long introduction with to slight to no freedom of the choice of path to follow. That is also common to P3;
- The Card Bonus minigame, after some of the battles, especially concerning the part that you could lose abilities with your persona;
- To time needed to advance the story forward it is more consuming than P3, and boring, as you have to lose the rainy night to watch the TV, lose an afternoon or more to track enough traits about the victim to advance into the dungeon, and at least two afternoons (if you count the optional boss in each dungeon) to transverse it and fight the bosses, in comparison to P3;
- Also the city is far smaller.
- The time available on the calendar is smaller than in P3 also.
- The default control of the camera, at least to me, till i learn to invert was nauseating.
I consider all these bad decisions, but as i say they are personal.
Comparing with P3 where you have lots of free time, it felt as bad decision the smaller given time to deal with them.Your complaints about P4 so far are that it doesn't give you enough days to social link between dungeons(not true, by the way) and that there is a minigame which you don't have to play which has a 50% failure rate. Neither of these 2 are bad game design deciscion
The minigame in itself isn't what is wrong, but the way it was implemented. Losing persona stats and some of the bad effects implemented can have grave consequences, and add to the frustration of transversing the dungeon. Also saying that you don't have to play it isn't an excuse, as if it is in the game, you would be missing out on something, even if it's badly implemented.
Do you know the OP by any chance? When you say "probably" you are also considering that you might be wrong. So i can be right too, and there a lot of people that prefer P3 over P4, as you can see in this discussion and on the web.That doesn't mean you can't prefer P3 to P4, but when you're going to be recommending someone a 70+ hour RPG and look at these 2 games, its not difficult at all to see which one he'll probably like more.
All that you are doing is sticking your personal opinions as a public consensus, which it doesn't hold as everybody has their personal taste. So i have to disagree with you there.
http://www.gamestop.ca/browse/search.aspx?N=0&Ntk=TitleKeyword&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=persona%204
And in P4 the AI isn't brighter, the lack of a fast-travel never really bother me in P3, as it probably won't for someone who doesn't know it from P4, and the UI was perfectly fine for me. You can argue about what most people will find, but in truth that only reflects your personal opinion about the game. That's why queries are made, to convey the general feeling of the public.
-P4 has full party control, so the bolded is moot
- Walking around in P3's boring enviremonts for 80 hours was a very common complaint by people launched against it, I too became sick of having to walk all
-The UI takes much longer to load and lacks the refinements in P4
Like I said, your handwaving of these massive flaws away by saying ''it didn't bother me'' doesn't change the fact that these thing are bad game design. It's cumbersome for people to have to fight with the UI in P3. Its repetitive that a player has to walk through the same 8 screens for 100 hours. Its poor AI design, that they refuse to heal me when I'm charmed.
Out of your list, this is the only point that could be considered a bad design decision, and since its present in P3 as well, it doesn't help your case
- The long introduction with to slight to no freedom of the choice of path to follow. That is also common to P3;
As for the others:
- The Card Bonus minigame, after some of the battles, especially concerning the part that you could lose abilities with your persona;
How is this bad game design? Like I said: this is akin to complaining about Hamaon not working 100% of the time.
You either decide to use it or not on your own accord. Its not the game's fault when you get screwed over.
- To time needed to advance the story forward it is more consuming than P3, and boring, as you have to lose the rainy night to watch the TV, lose an afternoon or more to track enough traits about the victim to advance into the dungeon, and at least two afternoons (if you count the optional boss in each dungeon) to transverse it and fight the bosses, in comparison to P3;
Let me repeat this from the previous post:
The social links themself have been adapted to deal with this. In the end, you can get more social links done by the end of the game in P4.
- Also the city is far smaller.
Yet it had much more to do in it then port island
That's called ''streamlining''. Port island has four or five more tedious screens to walk through then P4. In P4, all important shops and locations were clustered in one location called ''Shopping district'', friend sociallinks were all put together in ''Yasogami High'' and the dungeon was implemented in ''Junes'' lastly, you have a sidequest/minigame area called ''samagawa river''
As opposed to Persona 3:
-You have an unnecessary map screen devoted to a shrine which could have just been in Paulowinia mall like in P4
-The shopping/ stat raising shops in the game are a complete clusterfuck. shops and social links are spread over 8 map screens
as opposed to P4's 3 map screens. This is made even more aggravating by the lack of a fast travel button
-Load times, are about twice as long as P4. Especially opening the status screen
UI issues:
-I can't just go to my equipment screen and change my party's equipment like P4, no according to Persona 3 I have to talk to ALL OF my party members, wait 5 seconds for their damn status screen to load and then I have to hope the thing I just picked up was worth the 30 seconds I just wasted.....just to switch a piece of equipment
-Wanna heal your party with one of you party members spells? Too bad. You don't get too make that call, the AI will idiotically restore your party to full health with ''Mediarahan'' and waste 12 SP when they could have just cast ''Diarahan'' on the one guy in my party who was in critical health. With the other person with lost health being at 90% HP.
Does the AI care? no.
- LETS FUSING....oh wait I have to wait 5 seconds for the screen to load everytime I switch between Elizabeth and Igor.
-Wanna check you pary's stats and skills? Have fun talking to eight character models at the other side of each room, press check status and wait for a screen to pop up after another 5 seconds of loading.
- The default control of the camera, at least to me, till i learn to invert was nauseating.
Seeing how the game lets you change this: its a non-issue.
If only there was a button like that in P3 labeled ''streamline this game''
Again:
- The time available on the calendar is smaller than in P3 also.
So what?
You can still get more social links done in one playthough of P4 then in P3
I consider all these bad decisions, but as i say they are personal.
You may not like them, which is fine, but 90% of the stuff you just mentioned isn't bad game design. Its rebalancing and streamlining tedious elements from the previous game
The minigame in itself isn't what is wrong, but the way it was implemented. Losing persona stats and some of the bad effects implemented can have grave consequences, and add to the frustration of transversing the dungeon. Also saying that you don't have to play it isn't an excuse, as if it is in the game, you would be missing out on something, even if it's badly implemented.
Its a dice roll.
The player knows its a dice roll
The player knows he can get effed
The player makes the decision himself to roll the dice.
If the player gets screwed: that is his own problem, the game informed him of the chance. Like I said: this is just like complaining that hamaon doesn't work 100% of the time.
You also fail to neglect to say, that traversing the dungeon in P3 is far more obnoxious
-Teleporters are spread out every 15 floors and if someone dies, you're screwed and have to pull out immediatly. Thus losing all your progress and forcing you to go through the same floors again.
-Status effects are persistent and without the proper healing you're screwed
-If a character dies and you're out of healing items you have to pull out
-If real live kicks in and you have to abandon the PS2, you can't teleport out of Tartarus and save you have to find a teleporter so you can get out, otherwise you lose all progress.
Are there people that prefer P3 over P4? sure.Do you know the OP by any chance? When you say "probably" you are also considering that you might be wrong. So i can be right too, and there a lot of people that prefer P3 over P4, as you can see in this discussion and on the web. All that you are doing is sticking your personal opinions as a public consensus, which it doesn't hold as everybody has their personal taste. So i have to disagree with you there. "
Are there people who try to say that P3 is more streamlined then P4? only the most hardcore, crazy P3 fans.
It is public consensus that P3 is far less streamlined Try looking at any discussion that has people talking about the merits of P3 and P4, you will never find someone defend P3 mechanically.
I got Persona 3 FES for $10 at a local video game store and then I got Persona 4 for $15 at Gamestop. Persona 3 was awesome, in my opinion, but I haven't jumped into 4 yet cause I don't want to get burned out. I'll start it when I get bored of Bad Company 2.
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