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Edited By IanYarborough

Thanks for this, @patrickklepek. Nice to see someone with a soul at such a high level in the industry. One of the good guys.

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Posted By satchbag

@kcp12: Right on. There's no inherent threat in discussing these topics of racial, sexual, and class-oriented representation. In fact, they exist because of how unpersuasive the topic is to begin with. If anything, the fact that these relevant and often heated discussions have made their way over to video games only validates video games as a powerful medium of conveyance. Conversations like this suggest that video games, like film and music, can have a firm hand in shaping people's ideologies and perspectives of the world.

It sounds scary and many would like to go back to the "old days" (which might I add were riddled with limitations and lack of imagination because of them), but conversations like this lead artists and developers towards creating more responsibly. This is doubly true for AAA's with large budgets. It is perfectly normal to romanticize the sanctity of a creative vision for a AAA or exceptionally visible and consequentially influential title. However, creative challenges such as lengthy character development do come into play and financial accountability from the marketing-powers-that-be are unavoidable. And because of some of these moving parts, it's tempting to forego the complex or unfamiliar character development of particular characters (such as an African-American man) in favor of more palatable social cues.

If I were working on a film, in a short amount of time (and smaller pay for a writer of less experience) I can convey an African-American as a troubled, welfare-class gangster on the come-up in fewer words and scenes than a privileged, agnostically-relatable, well-educated hero out for the good of people of all colors and classes. The Cosby Show is tragically one-of-a-kind. I can do the same in fewer words by making an Asian-American the hyper-objective brains of a group or the asexual sidekick.

Do many realize that Glen from the Walking Dead is pretty much the only Asian dude to get the white girl in a commercial television show or movie? A minority male espousing a white female is absolute taboo in film. Hence, why Will Smith is always opposite latino women. The only movies where this is accessible is when the movie is exclusively about the controversy surrounding it. A recent Cheerio's commercial starring a couple with a black husband and white wife was taken off the air the same day it went up because it received an insurmountable amount of hate towards the idea of an interracial marriage.

That was a huge tangent. The point is that hushing discussions and posts like this one doesn't leave video games pure, sanctified, and neutral. The system has always been broken. These conversations help lift the veil.

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Posted By Mr_Creeper

I don't know why I ever listen to stuff like this...

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Edited By Etherealrain

@tdot said:

There's a few issues. First off I think demanding to at least be different from something previously is a good thing, no? I mean we tend to roll our eyes when we see gameplay mechanics very similar to another game. Stagnation is never a good thing.

Secondly I think there's a fairly strong case that developers actually want to do different things but there's the marketing department either flat out tells them to change or greatly reduces their budget. Devs are already unfairly controlled to these weird standards when there's little evidence it makes any kind of difference. I mean are we really to believe the walking dead suffered sales because it featured a black character? Can any of us say we didn't play the game because of that?

Not necessarily. Not all change is good change.

Gameplay mechanics is something different than the sexuality, race or sex of a character. Gameplay is something you actually do or participate in, so it's apparent that overused gameplay mechanics get repetitive and boring quickly. So you say "Ugh. This again?! I can't do this, I don't like this."

Meanwhile, sex and sexuality--when you turn on a game and it has a white male character as a lead, do you go through the same thought process? "Ugh, another white male lead, I can't do this." A game is much more than the characters. I doubt you would be on the same level of disgusted if the game has a 'straight white male' lead, than if a game has bad repetitive mechanics.

I agree devs should be allowed more freedom to make what they want to make. (But aren't you, who are demanding they include things in their games, infringing on the freedom you want them to have?)

However, publishers, first and foremost are BUSINESSES, like any other. Their goal is to make a profit. If they see something as hurting potential profit, they will try their best to cull it. I am well aware that publishers meddle in development, and most times it has horrible results (Overstrike/Fuse). That same publisher allowed Bioware to have gay characters in their video games. Several Japanese games also have gay characters in their games, sometimes flamboyant, sometimes not.

On top of this, as I said before, devs have their own vision. What they want to create. If this does not include a black female as a lead, and they aren't interested in doing something like that, then what right do you have to demand that they include it? What right do you have to infringe on their creative freedom by demanding they change their work for you?

The Walking Dead offered a LOT MORE than just a black main character. Why did Remember Me not sell, even though it had a black female character as the lead? TWD sold because of reviews, and word of mouth passed around that it was a good game. Remember Me did not sell because it got bad reviews and scores, it was not that good of a game (imo it was mediocre and had potential. Great style too).

Nobody cared about Lee's race to the point where they thought that they should or shouldn't buy it because of his skin colour. If Lee was white, it would not have made a difference, of course, because people went in expecting it to be a good GAME. Lee was good because he was a good character, shaped by your choices. Not because he was black.

So why should a character in a video game be black just because you want them to? Or you believe that it's better that they be black? Isn't that just racism? Because if someone looked at a black character and said "he should be white", people would call it exactly that.

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Edited By graf1k
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Somebody needed to say it...

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Edited By teaoverlord

@jdeac51 said:

No one is threatened about this...it just smells like PC police. Having diversity is great but there is this concept of pushing an agenda of diversity that irks people like me because its not organic and its usually part of a larger political/power play for intellectual shelf space. I would like to meet a large groups of non-neo liberal whites that are up in arms about diversity in gaming. Really niche crowd...

Neoliberalism is an economic philosophy. What are you even talking about?

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Edited By jdeac51

No one is threatened about this...it just smells like PC police. Having diversity is great but there is this concept of pushing an agenda of diversity that irks people like me because its not organic and its usually part of a larger political/power play for intellectual shelf space. I would like to meet a large groups of non-neo liberal whites that are up in arms about diversity in gaming. Really niche crowd...

Avatar image for bunnymud
Posted By bunnymud

@tdot:

Plus it also goes to say that the people who want things to change oughta be trying to get involved and write or develop the games they want to see made, not make others work the way they want them to.

That's not the mob mentality.

Avatar image for midnightgreen20
Posted By midnightgreen20

@tdot: When the demands have an agenda behind them, then yeah it's not really a good thing because it's taking away from the creative effort of the writers and developers in order to appease people. I think we have to call into question just why they want such and such character to be in the game in the first place. Like I said, the story should have a character that best fits the situation, and that whatever traits that they have be appropriate to the plot and setting.

Plus, I doubt that marketing would have such a heavy influence on what the character ends up being. Most of the time, when companies need to make that big game, they go for something with a shooting element and online multiplayer. That's the main thing to draw people in. I doubt that race, gender, etc. would really turn people away from a game. Look at how well Tomb Raider did. Yeah, she was established before but as a hypersexed explorer. They toned that down quite a bit but that didn't stop people from buying the game.

Plus it also goes to say that the people who want things to change oughta be trying to get involved and write or develop the games they want to see made, not make others work the way they want them to.

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Edited By TDot

I find it quite annoying that people demand more of said gender, race, etc. in games and the first response people take is that there is a problem with the way we make video games. Why don't we ever look at both sides of the table? Why do they want to see more diversity in games? Is the lack of diversity negatively affecting the writing and development process? Or are people just making demands to make themselves feel better, just wanting to have their way?

I personally wouldn't mind seeing more diversity in games as much as anyone else. But I only want it if that's what the writers and developers actually want to do with their next games. I don't want to force them to do something that perhaps they don't feel entirely confident in, or comfortable writing as they feel they could somehow misrepresent someone. I understand if someone makes a tasteless joke or represents people in the wrong way then people would be upset by the game and want there to be changes in the writing so that it doesn't come off offensive to someone. And if games use misogyny just for the idea that sex sells, then that would call for people being upset because it's totally pointless. But if everything in a game serves the writer's creative purpose and is needed for the story, I don't find any reason to change the way things are just for the sake of change.

I've kinda always thought of this issue and broke it down to a simple sentence I keep repeating... We're taking real world problems and applying them to worlds that aren't real.

There's a few issues. First off I think demanding to at least be different from something previously is a good thing, no? I mean we tend to roll our eyes when we see gameplay mechanics very similar to another game. Stagnation is never a good thing.
Secondly I think there's a fairly strong case that developers actually want to do different things but there's the marketing department either flat out tells them to change or greatly reduces their budget. Devs are already unfairly controlled to these weird standards when there's little evidence it makes any kind of difference. I mean are we really to believe the walking dead suffered sales because it featured a black character? Can any of us say we didn't play the game because of that?

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Posted By midnightgreen20

I find it quite annoying that people demand more of said gender, race, etc. in games and the first response people take is that there is a problem with the way we make video games. Why don't we ever look at both sides of the table? Why do they want to see more diversity in games? Is the lack of diversity negatively affecting the writing and development process? Or are people just making demands to make themselves feel better, just wanting to have their way?

I personally wouldn't mind seeing more diversity in games as much as anyone else. But I only want it if that's what the writers and developers actually want to do with their next games. I don't want to force them to do something that perhaps they don't feel entirely confident in, or comfortable writing as they feel they could somehow misrepresent someone. I understand if someone makes a tasteless joke or represents people in the wrong way then people would be upset by the game and want there to be changes in the writing so that it doesn't come off offensive to someone. And if games use misogyny just for the idea that sex sells, then that would call for people being upset because it's totally pointless. But if everything in a game serves the writer's creative purpose and is needed for the story, I don't find any reason to change the way things are just for the sake of change.

I've kinda always thought of this issue and broke it down to a simple sentence I keep repeating... We're taking real world problems and applying them to worlds that aren't real.

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Edited By Etherealrain

Men and women are sexualized in different ways. What would the ideal, sexy man look like, for a woman? Muscles? Slim prettyboy? Rough and gruff? etc etc. False equivalence in this case is a fallacy. A man with his shirt off, showing off his muscles or a slim, attractive body is as much fanservice to females as a underwear shot or cleavage is to males.

Though it depends on personal taste also. Some men are attracted to Elf's petite stature but turned off by Sorceress or Amazon. Same way, some girls are attracted to (DMC3) shirtless Dante but turned off by the gruffness of Snake despite him wearing a skintight suit.

The idea that men can't be sexualized is the same as saying you can't be racist against white people or sexist against males.

It's apparent in every media, on TV and movies, and like Anwar pointed out, in books as well.

Also there's nothing inherently WRONG with sexualization in media. It's been there for -ages-. It being in video games has as much impact on the real world as violence in the same medium. It's fantasy, fiction. Set far from reality.

And by the way, in Dragon's Crown, Dwarf wears less clothes than Amazon. But that's okay, because he's male, right?

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Posted By Anwar

@customotto: thank you for this nonsensical reply. I assume you are having stomach flu and can't be bothered to post something more coherent. See? I can post nonsense too and I can reply in a not very sensible manner.

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Posted By TreuloseTomate

@set said:

@anwar said:

@rockyraccoon37 said:

@benderunit22 said:

That said, what I hate about the feminism movement is the double standards. Like how the journalism world collectively jumped on Dragon's Crown for the way it depicted its female characters, yet no shits were given about how grotesk the male characters looked, Furthermore, some reviews basically stereotyped anyone who'd play this game as a perverted teenager, who'd spend more time masturbating to said females rather than possiibly enjoying the underlying game.

This is what is commonly referred to as a false equivalence. The point is that (in that example specifically) both the male and female characters are designed specifically for a male player-- the women are sexualized and the men are physically empowered.

Yeah, man, you're totally right. All those romance novels which have athletic and ripped dudes on the cover look like that to empower men, because looking buff and having a brawny body is just a male power fantasy and nothing more.

Do you happen to be a MRA, by any chance?

Just gotta love this. Someone has a different opinion. Must be an MRA or maybe a troll? Who knows!

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Posted By CustomOtto

@anwar: uh i think you're really confused here bud

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Posted By Anwar

@customotto: I am so sorry. Giving real world examples which happen to not be video games are completely invalid, but making unsubstantiated claims about some 'false equivalence', which is made up nonsense in the case of Dragon's Crown, is alright since you agree with the other dude. Never mind that false equivalence has nothing to do with video games.

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Posted By CustomOtto

@anwar said:
@set said:

@anwar said:

@rockyraccoon37 said:

@benderunit22 said:

That said, what I hate about the feminism movement is the double standards. Like how the journalism world collectively jumped on Dragon's Crown for the way it depicted its female characters, yet no shits were given about how grotesk the male characters looked, Furthermore, some reviews basically stereotyped anyone who'd play this game as a perverted teenager, who'd spend more time masturbating to said females rather than possiibly enjoying the underlying game.

This is what is commonly referred to as a false equivalence. The point is that (in that example specifically) both the male and female characters are designed specifically for a male player-- the women are sexualized and the men are physically empowered.

Yeah, man, you're totally right. All those romance novels which have athletic and ripped dudes on the cover look like that to empower men, because looking buff and having a brawny body is just a male power fantasy and nothing more.

Do you happen to be a MRA, by any chance?

Wanna try to point out some discrepancies and or show some arguments or just call me names?

you brought up romance novels in a discussion about video games. good job, you sure seem to have it all figured out.

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Posted By bunnymud

Mountains and mole hills. There are more pressing things going on in the world than to find issues where I don't see any.

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Posted By Anwar
@set said:

@anwar said:

@rockyraccoon37 said:

@benderunit22 said:

That said, what I hate about the feminism movement is the double standards. Like how the journalism world collectively jumped on Dragon's Crown for the way it depicted its female characters, yet no shits were given about how grotesk the male characters looked, Furthermore, some reviews basically stereotyped anyone who'd play this game as a perverted teenager, who'd spend more time masturbating to said females rather than possiibly enjoying the underlying game.

This is what is commonly referred to as a false equivalence. The point is that (in that example specifically) both the male and female characters are designed specifically for a male player-- the women are sexualized and the men are physically empowered.

Yeah, man, you're totally right. All those romance novels which have athletic and ripped dudes on the cover look like that to empower men, because looking buff and having a brawny body is just a male power fantasy and nothing more.

Do you happen to be a MRA, by any chance?

Wanna try to point out some discrepancies and or show some arguments or just call me names?

Avatar image for set
Posted By Set

@anwar said:

@rockyraccoon37 said:

@benderunit22 said:

That said, what I hate about the feminism movement is the double standards. Like how the journalism world collectively jumped on Dragon's Crown for the way it depicted its female characters, yet no shits were given about how grotesk the male characters looked, Furthermore, some reviews basically stereotyped anyone who'd play this game as a perverted teenager, who'd spend more time masturbating to said females rather than possiibly enjoying the underlying game.

This is what is commonly referred to as a false equivalence. The point is that (in that example specifically) both the male and female characters are designed specifically for a male player-- the women are sexualized and the men are physically empowered.

Yeah, man, you're totally right. All those romance novels which have athletic and ripped dudes on the cover look like that to empower men, because looking buff and having a brawny body is just a male power fantasy and nothing more.

Do you happen to be a MRA, by any chance?

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Posted By Etherealrain

I don't see this as a real problem. Should games have more diverse casts? Well, no one's against such an idea. Should it be a focus? Not at all. A character that is defined by skin colour, sex, and/or sexuality and little beyond is a problem. Having a black character for the sake of having a black character is actually just racism. Their race, sexuality and sex should not matter when it comes to their situations, abilities, roles and personalities. No one ever complained about Veronica or Arcade from Fallout New Vegas. They were both gay, but it wasn't the first thing you learned about them, you really had to get to know them before anything. They were defined by so much more than their race, sex or sexuality.

So in essence, you shouldn't be asking for "I want more black female characters in gaming!" You should be asking for "I want more GOOD characters in gaming!". Race, sex, should not matter. Especially when it comes to a game.

What I do have a problem with is that fact that there is this -demand- for developers to submit, and add these things to the games they are creating. To the worlds and concepts they want to make. I like to think of developers as a bunch of artists, or painters, painting one picture. They're creating something, they have a vision and they want to act on it. They work together to make their ideas come true. They have the creative, artistic freedom to do so. And as a result, they have an audience they want to target, be it males or females, different agegroups, etc. I have a firm belief that developers should not 'broaden' their audiences to get as much people from different groups as possible. You see, it changes the uniqueness of their vision, and it affects the game. Everything from artstyle, character designs and models, to gameplay and mechanics.

A game targeting as much audiences as it could, what would it look like? To me, a game like that would be a boring mess. It would not have anything stand out, it would just be a mediocre, gray paste that's put on a disc.

Games like Dragon's Crown or Senran Kagura being targeted to males shouldn't be a problem. The Style Savvy games are targeted towards girls. Is this a problem? It's not seen as one. No one demanded that they change, or include something to attract a broader audience, in this case, males. Males however, still play the games.

If you don't like them for any reasons, there are other beat-em-ups out there you can play, I'm sure.

I don't believe video games should be a soap box for social agenda. Conforming to your, or anyone elses' worldviews is not a prerequisite of any form of entertainment. If a game developer's vision does not have a black gay male as a lead, they're not interested in having such a character, then they have every right to not include that.

There are FAR more problematic issues facing the gaming industry. I feel this one is just overblown. No one's against the idea of having diverse characters, sure. But I don't like the idea of making or forcing developers to do it. If they want to include it, it's up to them.

Avatar image for anwar
Posted By Anwar

@benderunit22 said:

That said, what I hate about the feminism movement is the double standards. Like how the journalism world collectively jumped on Dragon's Crown for the way it depicted its female characters, yet no shits were given about how grotesk the male characters looked, Furthermore, some reviews basically stereotyped anyone who'd play this game as a perverted teenager, who'd spend more time masturbating to said females rather than possiibly enjoying the underlying game.

This is what is commonly referred to as a false equivalence. The point is that (in that example specifically) both the male and female characters are designed specifically for a male player-- the women are sexualized and the men are physically empowered.

Yeah, man, you're totally right. All those romance novels which have athletic and ripped dudes on the cover look like that to empower men, because looking buff and having a brawny body is just a male power fantasy and nothing more.

Avatar image for robin_smith
Edited By robin_smith

@monkfishesq said:

Remember when video games were just about games

Yep, "video game, the video game"

that game where you played a game that showed you pictures and sounds from other video games and you got points because you knew the video games.. classic.

@DaveC524 said:

Remember when people didn't complain about Link being a cisgendered, privileged white male. Those were the days...

Actually, technically, Link isnt cisgendered, privileged white male. He's firstly, technically, not human but elf, which would put him as fantasy minority. Secondly, in most games he comes from poverty, normally without his parents (at best his gran and uncle are alive) and living in, more often then not a shack.

He also is mute, and as such has no clear sexual identity, he could be gay, bi, omni or even Asexual. Asexual being most likely. Also, even if one or two "Links" are straight males, there have been several links over the years. it's entirely reasonable to assume by statistical probability that he may have been a gay male at least once.

Also take into account the diverse group of supporting characters and powerful men, women and creatures from across the lands. Few being human or more importantly male.

Zelda is the title character, often the most powerful person in hyrule, and even is very much a strong heroic character too, ,most notable in oot and ww.

So maybe its not that things are somehow changed, but more that the zelda games, and link, weren't a problematic area anyway.

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Posted By TDot

@sweetz: when it comes to games, things like diversity are not what people care about nearly as much as things like mechanics, performance, controls, graphics, etc. These things are FAR more important to the average person than whether the protagonist is diverse or not. This differs from person to person, but I guarantee few people want to play a broken or uninteresting game just because the protagonist is female.

Does that mean those issues don't exist?

Avatar image for curlyburl
Edited By curlyburl

@sweetz: when it comes to games, things like diversity are not what people care about nearly as much as things like mechanics, performance, controls, graphics, etc. These things are FAR more important to the average person than whether the protagonist is diverse or not. This differs from person to person, but I guarantee few people want to play a broken or uninteresting game just because the protagonist is female.

Avatar image for nmc2008
Edited By NMC2008

I think I took a wrong turn at Albuquerque, I will see myself out.

Avatar image for ptys
Edited By ptys

I think character customisation with dialogue choices can help as I play games to be the protagonist myself, not to guide someone else through an adventure. If I can't relate to the lead, I usually lose interest.

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Edited By TDot

@tdot: Yeah thank god you got all these cis shit white males in line, right bro?

I don't consider anyone 'shit' for being something they have no control over. I'm also not your bro, pal.

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Edited By InternetDetective

You are an Inuit transgender triple amputee with athlete's foot in the hot new video computer game Tecmo Bowl XXXVI: BBW Edition.

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Posted By CustomOtto
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Posted By teaoverlord
Avatar image for declanusaur
Posted By declanusaur

@viking_funeral said:

Damn it. I honestly thought this was actually about how so many games seem similar these days.

I should really read the caption next time.

It kinda was...

LOL. THIS GUY. TOP KEK. Seriously, I had a hearty laugh.

Avatar image for declanusaur
Posted By declanusaur

Damn it. I honestly thought this was actually about how so many games seem similar these days.

I should really read the caption next time.

Or who posted it. Diversity and Patrick Klepek, only one place that is going.

Avatar image for teaoverlord
Posted By teaoverlord

Damn it. I honestly thought this was actually about how so many games seem similar these days.

I should really read the caption next time.

It kinda was...

Avatar image for viking_funeral
Posted By viking_funeral

Damn it. I honestly thought this was actually about how so many games seem similar these days.

I should really read the caption next time.

Avatar image for declanusaur
Posted By declanusaur

@oddsor: Here is a parallel for you, most people would have some level of congruence on the idea that most politicians are corrupt, but nothing happens. However, the second one gets caught, they usually get crucified.

Patrick is pushing for a unrealistic, stupid, politically correct, word police, world wide web. He should move to the EU and be right at home where you be thrown in jail for what you say on twitter. It's hypocrisy when he complains about the vitriol and it's ironic that those SJW warriors that support his cause seem to be some of the most vile and insane people on the internet. I guess though, that's what happens when you tap the fringe for resources.

Avatar image for oddsor
Edited By Oddsor

@declanusaur: Aren't people allowed to talk about stuff like this just because they've screwed up themselves? He's even mentioned that he himself has attacked people on social media in the very same talks about being attacked on social media.

Avatar image for declanusaur
Edited By declanusaur

@troispoint: From my experience in the investing world I've learned this. Make a problem, make some people believe it, and you've got an unlimited welfare system for yourself.

All you have to do is get a following, Patrick goes around like the SJW in chief and that's his shtick. Of course his fans don't bat an eye when he bullies people on twitter or tells them to "go die in a fire", but lap up his I'm getting bullied on the internet speeches. He just wants a hug box, he doesn't like adversity, he just wants everyone to fall in line, even if it's a line he steps off of all the time.

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Posted By Zevvion

@troispoint: I agree. I think developers should have freedom to create what they want. The statistic of '14,7%' is a statistic that derives from creative vision, story writing and marketing towards a specific audience. It doesn't come from a sense of 'competition' or 'hate' for genders, races, sexuality and what not.

There are several reasons why there are more male leads in games than female, but inequality isn't one of them. Just because female leads are more rare, doesn't imply that women on a whole are less valuable. The notion that it does, sounds crazy to me and it makes it seem like the ones making that point are actually the ones who apparently value them less themselves.

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Posted By Troispoint

@aceofspudz:

Agreed. And I find the ''journalism'' around this whole issue to be incredibly patronizing. Not just Patrick, but a whole lot of people covering games have taken the easy stance of depicting the feminists as both the victims and the saviors and the people arguing against it as simply chauvinistic. As if internet rage is proof of some deep seeded misogyny. Which is so stupid. For example, Jack Thompson received as much hatred (including death threats) as anyone with his case against violence in video games. But we all understand that the overly rabid reaction of some people shouldn't discredit the entire side of the issue. Yet, some like Anita Sarkeesian have instrumentalized this as some proof they're on the right side and no one in the game journalism industry called her out on it.

I also have a problem with the so called lack of gender quantitative balance. Manveer Heir brings up that only 14,7% of game characters are female in games as if it's an injustice. Thats taking numbers out of context because a lot of games involves war conflicts for example, so it's only logical that the vast majority of characters are males. Because there simply aren't many females in the military. Let alone that companies are making games for a male audience.

Avatar image for aceofspudz
Edited By aceofspudz

I see the normal assortment of self-righteous genderfluid persons of mixed racial backgrounds in these comments sections are attempting to rise above the fray by proclaiming themselves and their political positions beyond discussion and lamenting the fallen nature of their fellow commenters.

You guys are the exact same as the people who tell Klepek to go fuck himself. Your posts are equally full of pointless adhom and the only difference is that you're passive aggressive about it. Which means nothing. Stop posting.

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Posted By TDot

This is a really good talk.

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Posted By ervonymous

@fear_the_booboo said:

@horseman6 Dragon's Crown is a game targeted towards men, so even if all the female characters were hyper-sexualized, who cares.

Here's your problem. Lot of women wanted to like the game but couldn't because of that. Targeting a game only to men is kind of a problem in itself.

HELL, I wanted to like the game, and couldn't because of how insanely juvenile the look felt to me.

I DO care. If you enjoy the game anyway, great! It's a pretty good game. But some people care, and cannot enjoy what is a well-made game because it has bad reprensentation of women (and men, even if it is a false equivalence).

A lot of women did play Dragon's Crown, I know a couple who love the game. I'm not sure where you're getting your statistics from.

How is targeting a game to men a problem? When did targeting games towards certain groups become a problem? Every other form of media, every product, ever service, targets certain groups. So why is it all of a sudden a problem in video games?

You also have the right to not play the game, that's your decision. Just because you had a hard time with the art style doesn't mean the game should be changed. If the game looked like every other generic sidescroller, there are a lot of people who would probably be less interested in it.

Dragon's Crown was a passion project through and through, a love letter to the D&D brawlers Kamitani worked on previously, I'd say it's targeted towards old fans above everyone else. Even most of the monsters are caricatures of their usual selves - classic D&D minotaur and the lizardmen designs look scrawny and 40K greenskins pale in comparison. There's no way the game could've come out any different.

Avatar image for vocalcannibal
Posted By vocalcannibal

I'm so glad I just skimmed these last three pages of comments because w o w .

I love this community dearly but jfc does it make me feel irrevocably unwelcome sometimes. It's hard to want to mesh with people who can't even express their opinions (which they are perfectly entitled to) without coming from a condescending and angry place right off the bat. Internet arguments, man.

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Edited By MonkfishEsq
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Edited By Bloyd

how predictable was it that this would have a shitstorm in the comments.

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Posted By Giantstalker

Well that was painful.