Like legions of you have no doubt done already, I went ahead and purchased the Arcade Edition DLC for Super Street Fighter IV. I too was waiting with feverish anticipation, only to totally forget because E3 and then remember later that afternoon. As far as I can tell, my $15 (or 1200 Microsoft points) for this particular purchase went towards 4 new characters, some extra online tweaks, and character rebalancing, as well as the ability to continue to not play Super Street Fighter IV against people who care online (Because really, who is going to still be playing with the home version at this point if they're still playing Street Fighter at all?). However, like many, I take issue with some of the additions this DLC has brought to the table. Let's break it down, shall we?
The characters
Hey guys. I don't know if you know this, but Evil Ryu is like Ryu. But evil. Here, you have Yun, Yang, Evil Ryu, and Oni. Clearly, at this point they're starting to grasp for good characters to bring in, despite the fact that there are still more than a few Alpha or SFIII characters left to mine. Starting with the easiest one to pick on: Evil Ryu seems totally unnecessary. While I'm glad that, at the very least, they've managed to make him more than just a palette swap of Ryu design-wise (instead optioning for "totally crazy and out of control evil man Ryu"), he's simply not a very interesting character at all, nor was he ever one. He is, for most intents and purposes Ryu with some of Akuma's moves (and in the case of the hurricane kick, properties of moves) thrown in to make him better offensively. One could go into pointless subtleties like how his cr.Mk has a longer reach or how his ultra 2 totally involves smashing that dude in the face, but COME ON CAPCOM, REALLY? Of all the half-assed characters from Street Fighter (and there are many. They could have put in R. Mika and that would've been only remotely worse), you went for the one that doesn't really offer anything? Of course, the worst part is that he doesn't play terribly since he's pretty much ryu with a teleport, an axe kick, and a raging demon super. Admittedly, he's not as bad as the Kyo Clone team from KOF 2002 UM (Featuring no less than 3 different versions of Kyo, in addition to the regular one), but that action is more excusable due to the "THIS ROSTER IS GIGANTIC" nature of King of Fighters.
For reference: one of the more blatant reuses of a single character sprite I've ever seen On the other hand, we have Oni. At the very least, he seems like a more different character than Evil Ryu. I'm still not entirely sure if I like him though. To say that he plays like Akuma is fallacy, because he doesn't have the demon flip, air fireballs, a teleport or fireballs that travel the entire screen. People say that he kinda plays like a more offensive Gouken? Sure? Maybe? He clearly can do some tricky stuff with those air dashes and that ground pound, but I'm not sure if I really enjoy playing as him, especially over regular 'ol Akuma. Meanwhile, of the two twins, I probably like Yang more because my feeble mind can comprehend what to do with those slashes and that rolling kick. Yun clearly seems powerful though, with the way that even I can effortlessly do far more damage than should be done with that custom combo super of his. I don't especially like either one design wise, but I'll take what I can get. Also dive kicks. Soooo many dive kicks.
Balance Changes I read somewhere on these forums that they didn't so much rebalance Super Street Fighter as they deliberately messed up all the characters who were good in the last one. As far as my personal vested interest goes, I'm somewhat bummed to say that exactly zero of the characters I play/care about have received any significant buffs. Vega, who is probably still my main hasn't really changed (his Ultra 2 isn't as good, basically), but the fact that all the characters who are good at rushing down have gotten better at rushing down doesn't help him very much. Seth has more health (yay), but his dive kick has less priority and he no longer has air stretchy arms, one of his key keep away moves. As someone who enjoys playing seth that way while cackling that they can't really hit me because of my air stretchy arms, this is an unfortunate downgrade. To round it all out, they've thankfully not really changed Bison in any sort of major way, except that now his Ultra 2 motion is charge and therefore harder to input. Standing Heavy Kick still works astoundingly well, so I gotta be thankful for that.
Online stuff
In the end, I can't really tell if this is truly worth the purchase. Oh well. Blazblue blog next week. Dude, whatever. I don't use the replay channel. However, since I've been busy playing other fighting games of notable repute, I've gotten a little rusty with plain old Street Fighter. That, or the only people who play Ranked anymore are people who actually know how to play the game. No lie, I saw like 2 Ryus in all the matches I have played so far. Meanwhile, I've seen more Gens than I think I've ever seen, as well as a fair share of Rose and Ibuki (oh great, two characters that I totally hate playing against). All this, as well as a few matches against Giant Bomb's own PixelPrinny has made me realize that: yes, I'm still not great at Street Fighter, am I? And at some point the barrier for entry becomes a little too high and I'm reminded why I don't really play competitive multiplayer games anymore. Of course, you can expect more of me ranting about being unskilled when I talk about Blazblue, probably sometime early next week. That game be hella crazy. And, maybe at some point I'll write those KoF XI and Mortal Kombat Armageddon old game blogs like I've been threatening to do. We'll see.
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Like legions of you have no doubt done already, I went ahead and purchased the Arcade Edition DLC for Super Street Fighter IV. I too was waiting with feverish anticipation, only to totally forget because E3 and then remember later that afternoon. As far as I can tell, my $15 (or 1200 Microsoft points) for this particular purchase went towards 4 new characters, some extra online tweaks, and character rebalancing, as well as the ability to continue to not play Super Street Fighter IV against people who care online (Because really, who is going to still be playing with the home version at this point if they're still playing Street Fighter at all?). However, like many, I take issue with some of the additions this DLC has brought to the table. Let's break it down, shall we?
The characters
Hey guys. I don't know if you know this, but Evil Ryu is like Ryu. But evil. Here, you have Yun, Yang, Evil Ryu, and Oni. Clearly, at this point they're starting to grasp for good characters to bring in, despite the fact that there are still more than a few Alpha or SFIII characters left to mine. Starting with the easiest one to pick on: Evil Ryu seems totally unnecessary. While I'm glad that, at the very least, they've managed to make him more than just a palette swap of Ryu design-wise (instead optioning for "totally crazy and out of control evil man Ryu"), he's simply not a very interesting character at all, nor was he ever one. He is, for most intents and purposes Ryu with some of Akuma's moves (and in the case of the hurricane kick, properties of moves) thrown in to make him better offensively. One could go into pointless subtleties like how his cr.Mk has a longer reach or how his ultra 2 totally involves smashing that dude in the face, but COME ON CAPCOM, REALLY? Of all the half-assed characters from Street Fighter (and there are many. They could have put in R. Mika and that would've been only remotely worse), you went for the one that doesn't really offer anything? Of course, the worst part is that he doesn't play terribly since he's pretty much ryu with a teleport, an axe kick, and a raging demon super. Admittedly, he's not as bad as the Kyo Clone team from KOF 2002 UM (Featuring no less than 3 different versions of Kyo, in addition to the regular one), but that action is more excusable due to the "THIS ROSTER IS GIGANTIC" nature of King of Fighters.
For reference: one of the more blatant reuses of a single character sprite I've ever seen On the other hand, we have Oni. At the very least, he seems like a more different character than Evil Ryu. I'm still not entirely sure if I like him though. To say that he plays like Akuma is fallacy, because he doesn't have the demon flip, air fireballs, a teleport or fireballs that travel the entire screen. People say that he kinda plays like a more offensive Gouken? Sure? Maybe? He clearly can do some tricky stuff with those air dashes and that ground pound, but I'm not sure if I really enjoy playing as him, especially over regular 'ol Akuma. Meanwhile, of the two twins, I probably like Yang more because my feeble mind can comprehend what to do with those slashes and that rolling kick. Yun clearly seems powerful though, with the way that even I can effortlessly do far more damage than should be done with that custom combo super of his. I don't especially like either one design wise, but I'll take what I can get. Also dive kicks. Soooo many dive kicks.
Balance Changes I read somewhere on these forums that they didn't so much rebalance Super Street Fighter as they deliberately messed up all the characters who were good in the last one. As far as my personal vested interest goes, I'm somewhat bummed to say that exactly zero of the characters I play/care about have received any significant buffs. Vega, who is probably still my main hasn't really changed (his Ultra 2 isn't as good, basically), but the fact that all the characters who are good at rushing down have gotten better at rushing down doesn't help him very much. Seth has more health (yay), but his dive kick has less priority and he no longer has air stretchy arms, one of his key keep away moves. As someone who enjoys playing seth that way while cackling that they can't really hit me because of my air stretchy arms, this is an unfortunate downgrade. To round it all out, they've thankfully not really changed Bison in any sort of major way, except that now his Ultra 2 motion is charge and therefore harder to input. Standing Heavy Kick still works astoundingly well, so I gotta be thankful for that.
Online stuff
In the end, I can't really tell if this is truly worth the purchase. Oh well. Blazblue blog next week. Dude, whatever. I don't use the replay channel. However, since I've been busy playing other fighting games of notable repute, I've gotten a little rusty with plain old Street Fighter. That, or the only people who play Ranked anymore are people who actually know how to play the game. No lie, I saw like 2 Ryus in all the matches I have played so far. Meanwhile, I've seen more Gens than I think I've ever seen, as well as a fair share of Rose and Ibuki (oh great, two characters that I totally hate playing against). All this, as well as a few matches against Giant Bomb's own PixelPrinny has made me realize that: yes, I'm still not great at Street Fighter, am I? And at some point the barrier for entry becomes a little too high and I'm reminded why I don't really play competitive multiplayer games anymore. Of course, you can expect more of me ranting about being unskilled when I talk about Blazblue, probably sometime early next week. That game be hella crazy. And, maybe at some point I'll write those KoF XI and Mortal Kombat Armageddon old game blogs like I've been threatening to do. We'll see.
Psychology . a person of the lowest order in a former classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25.
@Pessh: Oh wait, Now I remember why I don't really post in topics related to Fighting Games anymore on these forums. Because people like you can't respect my opinions. I'm sorry that I don't play the game as well as you, but I was stating what I thought of the DLC as it applied to me. If you really give enough of a fuck to call me an idiot, post your own stupid impressions and show the "correct" opinion on such a matter.
@Pessh: Oh wait, Now I remember why I don't really post in topics related to Fighting Games anymore on these forums. Because people like you can't respect my opinions. I'm sorry that I don't play the game as well as you, but I was stating what I thought of the DLC as it applied to me. If you really give enough of a fuck to call me an idiot, post your own stupid impressions and show the "correct" opinion on such a matter.
Posting negative things related to Street FIghter on these forums is asking for trouble from the snobs of the GB fighting game community. (Believe me, I should know.) How dare someone point out how utterly lame Evil Ryu is as a character concept just because his moveset isn't entirely identical and thus he is an awesome character. Of course.
Or maybe, Pessh was just defining himself for our benefit.
That was a good article. While I don't necessarily see it in the same way, I can see how you came to the conclusions that you came to. I'll definitely tune in to your other articles!
This being said, the one thing that I want to critique is your part on the characters. With the release of SFIII online, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to add those characters when you can release the game and make more money off of it. Could they have released someone like Necro or Q for DLC? Most likely. But if you think about it, if you don't release them, then release third strike online, the people who have been wanting to play Q or Necro and were rallying for them to be DLC will buy the full game as opposed to the characters themselves. As far as the Alpha characters, this point doesn't exactly apply but if Third Strike online does well, is it completely out of the realm of possibility that they would re-release alpha online?
@Hailinel: You can post all the negative things you want, but bitching about a character being unoriginal when there's 38 others to play? I'm not saying he's awesome but I'm also not so stupid that I can't see past some weak character design, there's more to a character than the model and name. You wouldn't say shit if he was called donkeyfucker. Evil Ryu plays nothing like Ryu, you probably would't know this though as you're too busy bitching about the characters on forums. This isn't some epic 40 hour story driven game, it's a FIGHTING game so different movesets, animations and frame data are a pretty big deal, much more so than how pretty the characters are.
@ArbitraryWater: Same to you. Evil Ryu is only the same in name, but even still, you can hate him, fine, I irrationaly hate things too, but there's 38 other characters, you could just play one of them instead of making a big deal out of it no? Has nothing to do with 'how well you play,' reading it the whole thing just seems terribly misinformed, 'I don't use replays so whatever,' 'I'm going to talk about balance, I haven't made the slightest bit of effort and looked up changes but I know a guy and he said the good dudes are ass now,' so you're an idiot, AND THATS MY OPINION SO RESPECT WHAT I SAY BLAH BLAH BLAH
And I love this preconcieved idea of GB fighting game snobs you both have, they can't just be informed people with a different (reasonable) opinion, heavens no.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and play some AE, have fun discussing the character design LOL.
@Hailinel: Maybe I should've expected that kind of response. I don't play the game enough that minor subtleties in character movesets really matter but even if one were to go in depth of what makes him different I'm not sure what really differentiates him from Ryu or Akuma enough to make him an interesting character to play. Not even caring about the design at this point, because whatever. The purpose of this blog was for me to express my impressions of what I thought about this new DLC specifically and then someone immediately comes in and calls me an idiot without any context whatsoever. Am I supposed to sit there and just take it?
@scarace360: That's probably the blanket comment I'd use too. But whatever. I have never claimed to be amazing at fighting games (nor is there an especially easy avenue to get better), only that I like playing them. This is from my perspective as someone who likes playing the game locally with friends rather than online against people who are better than I am.
@Pessh: Alright, let me try this honestly: What meaningfully differentiates Evil Ryu playstyle-wise from Akuma, other than that he doesn't have air fireballs and his ultras are different?
@Hailinel: Maybe I should've expected that kind of response. I don't play the game enough that minor subtleties in character movesets really matter but even if one were to go in depth of what makes him different I'm not sure what really differentiates him from Ryu or Akuma enough to make him an interesting character to play. Not even caring about the design at this point, because whatever. The purpose of this blog was for me to express my impressions of what I thought about this new DLC specifically and then someone immediately comes in and calls me an idiot without any context whatsoever. Am I supposed to sit there and just take it?
@scarace360: That's probably the blanket comment I'd use too. But whatever. I have never claimed to be amazing at fighting games (nor is there an especially easy avenue to get better), only that I like playing them. This is from my perspective as someone who likes playing the game locally with friends rather than online against people who are better than I am.
@Pessh: Alright, let me try this honestly: What meaningfully differentiates Evil Ryu playstyle-wise from Akuma, other than that he doesn't have air fireballs and his ultras are different?
There is never a easy way to get better you just have to go out there and try. O and the differences between evil ryu and akuma are really big.
This resentment from diehards seems to be a running thing with the fighter game blogs I've read. To be fair, though, there are people who go equally nuts when someone mentions how they can't really tell the difference between the SCAR-L and M16. I guess it's more to do with those who dedicate themselves to a genre or game, and their subsequent disdain for those of a more casual bent who haven't explored the game as thoroughly.
As far as the "If you don't like Evil Ryu, just play any of the other 38 characters!" argument goes, I don't think it really applies to a review discussing whether or not to purchase the DLC for just four new characters, with Evil Ryu and another Akuma-like included.
Now write another blog about Master of Magic so I can copy/paste the dictionary.com entry for "retard" and explain that the reason you aren't enjoying playing as a Death magic user is because you aren't using the Corruption enchantment effectively to lower the food production for hostile cities before invading them. That's the kind of dumb rookie mistake someone who hasn't yet played the game for 50 hours might make. You stupidface.
@Mento: To be fair, I never really liked Death spellbooks in Master of Magic. Mostly because I got the impression that a lot of the spells didn't work correctly, kind of like the entire Mind spellbook in Might and Magic VI-VIII
@Hailinel: You can post all the negative things you want, but bitching about a character being unoriginal when there's 38 others to play? I'm not saying he's awesome but I'm also not so stupid that I can't see past some weak character design, there's more to a character than the model and name. You wouldn't say shit if he was called donkeyfucker. Evil Ryu plays nothing like Ryu, you probably would't know this though as you're too busy bitching about the characters on forums. This isn't some epic 40 hour story driven game, it's a FIGHTING game so different movesets, animations and frame data are a pretty big deal, much more so than how pretty the characters are.
@ArbitraryWater: Same to you. Evil Ryu is only the same in name, but even still, you can hate him, fine, I irrationaly hate things too, but there's 38 other characters, you could just play one of them instead of making a big deal out of it no? Has nothing to do with 'how well you play,' reading it the whole thing just seems terribly misinformed, 'I don't use replays so whatever,' 'I'm going to talk about balance, I haven't made the slightest bit of effort and looked up changes but I know a guy and he said the good dudes are ass now,' so you're an idiot, AND THATS MY OPINION SO RESPECT WHAT I SAY BLAH BLAH BLAH And I love this preconcieved idea of GB fighting game snobs you both have, they can't just be informed people with a different (reasonable) opinion, heavens no. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and play some AE, have fun discussing the character design LOL.
The moment you posted the definition of idiot, you pretty much lost any hope of being taken seriously in this debate. Your attitude is the cartoonish, hysterical sort that I generally associate with the worst of the competitive crowd. To me, Evil Ryu plays enough like Ryu that he is an unnecessary addition to the roster. As I've said before elsewhere, he is cut from the same cloth as the original Ryu. The cloth may have been hemmed and pleated, but it's still the same cloth, and it was fashioned into a garment I have zero interest in wearing. There is no reason for him to be in this game and his and Oni's presence is enough that I'm not even going to bother with the AE DLC. Evil Ryu is a weak character design married to an overused Street Fighter gameplay archetype.
And just for the record, if his name were Donkeyfucker, I'd still be making fun of him. Why? Because he'd be a generic pseudo-Ryu named Donkeyfucker. It'd be easier to take Dan seriously.
Wow, these arrogant views and snobbings on Giant Bomb are new to me, even with my GB-lifetime-attending. I thought it was great to hear subjective views on a game I was contemplating spending my money on. Keep up the excellent work, AW!
@Hailinel: I love you, Hallinel. I hope I'm following you. If I'm not, I will now.
The general consent from the pro community is that Arcade Edition is relative trash. This is because there are a lot of unnecessary nerfs, and by attempting to make the game even more offensive than it already is, they essentially dumbed down all of the defensive characters and bumped up the easy mode characters, especially with the inclusion of Yun and Yang.
Internet forum posters, like our fellow, lovely Pessh are the vocal minority of scrubs who seem to take Arcade Edition as the "savior" of IV, and anybody who disagrees with that opinion is an idiot. Keep on keepin' on, Pessh. Maybe if you practiced more than you talk, you might feel less inclined to jump ship on characters every two months because of our overall lack of understanding of the game.
@Napalm: Lol I love you, my first fanboy. And just so we're clear, I've only ever played 3 characters since vanilla. Why not take some of your own advice, all you seem to do is post about me, bitch about Guile nerfs and trash AE.
@Hailinel: Oh so you played it in arcades? Or do you just know he plays to similar without actually playing? And curious if you like MK if Evil Ryu offends you so much?
@Pessh: Or you can just post more bullshit without actually addressing anything important I said in relation to the professional fighting community and Arcade Edition.
Nevermind, I wouldn't expect anything more from you.
@Napalm: Lol I love you, my first fanboy. And just so we're clear, I've only ever played 3 characters since vanilla. Why not take some of your own advice, all you seem to do is post about me, bitch about Guile nerfs and trash AE.
@Hailinel: Oh so you played it in arcades? Or do you just know he plays to similar without actually playing? And curious if you like MK if Evil Ryu offends you so much?
Man, you just don't get it. I already said my piece. Maybe you should go back, reread what I wrote, and pay attention this time.
@Hailinel: I did, you said he plays too similar, then that you won't be getting AE, was just curious what you were basing that on if you havn't played the game. Seems like you'd decided as soon as he was announced the Evil Ryu was ass, but whatever, that's fine.
@Napalm: Maybe I didn't think hearsay from the pros is important? I'm going to base my opinions on AE on my experiences rather than what other people think. Super probably was better balanced, but sorry, I'm not going to cry about it with you.
@ZombiePie: Bar my first post Its all pretty civil, check Napalms posts if you want uncivil, apparently he's obsessed with me.
Anybody play SSFIV on PC? How's the community? Alive and kicking?
Thinking about getting the boxed version, since I've given up on XBL Gold. My SFIV version being 360 and owning one of them snazzy fightpads (which work great with PC too), I'm inclined to grab a copy.
@Pessh: The pros are the ones that actually carry our community, so I think you should value their opinion. You don't have to agree with it, but you should at least respect it. I pushed hard against the community when they said SFIV was balanced as hell. I still valued their opinion, but I still told them I didn't agree with it.
Maybe you should step back and reassess for a little bit.
My opinion when looking at this DLC upgrade is that it is largely inferior to our last iteration being SSF4. I already know a dude who plays this game regularly and I myself know enough of the game to make my own personal judgement call for myself.
I'm getting the PC version as I have no consoles at the moment. For me, SSF4AE is an amazing step up from Vanilla, having all the characters and be able to have fun with people locally on a laptop anywhere I go (don't worry, Capcom will let this happen with that patch that removes the DRM that prevents this). I will be very satisfied with the game in my case.
However both me and my friend who plays this game a ton, believes this Arcade Edition to be pretty nonsensical in parts. Two of the Characters are unoriginal (take a wild guess) as the last thing I wanted were two characters based of already existing ones period. I don't care about the little nuances that will make them play different in the context of the die-hard player. If I see a guy basically look like a re-skinned Ryu and a re-skinned Akuma, I have the right to roll my eyes at it as there are more characters in the Street Fighter series that they could have used instead (regardless of people's tastes for the other characters). They could even have made a couple of completely new characters not based off of anyone else if they had bothered to invest in the time for it.
So in short (and again, in my complete subjective opinion), this is a poor next iteration for the game as it gives us two characters that look the same as their original counter-parts (not cool with me) and also two cool characters (to be fair). I have heard very mixed things about the balance (more negative to be honest), however I am not enough of a Street Fighter nut to really comment on it. I do know at face value, it is a tough sell for anyone who just plays SSF4 for fun and not also to be seriously competitive at it.
I do know at face value, it is a tough sell for anyone who just plays SSF4 for fun and not also to be seriously competitive at it.
I bought it for 15 and I'm certainly not serious about the game at all. While certain characters may not seem that original to you, that's only because you are judging a book by its cover. They seriously could have given them two completely new names and looks, but have the same move sets and frame data, and everybody would have just accepted them as the new boss characters.
I do know at face value, it is a tough sell for anyone who just plays SSF4 for fun and not also to be seriously competitive at it.
I bought it for 15 and I'm certainly not serious about the game at all. While certain characters may not seem that original to you, that's only because you are judging a book by its cover. They seriously could have given them two completely new names and looks, but have the same move sets and frame data, and everybody would have just accepted them as the new boss characters.
Please understand that first and foremost, my view is a subjective one so there isn't much anyone is going to do in changing my opinion on it, though describing your different perspective is interesting and appreciated.
Secondly, my friend knows a lot of the ins and outs of the game and thus he showed me all the immediate nuances of the two characters mentioned. They definitely were fun to play however knowing that they are still based on the same fundamental character template never sits well with me. They both still throw fireballs (even knowing their properties are different), perform the same spinning kicks (also different in the way they work at a technical level) and have that same feel of presence as their counterparts to me (again, a subjective point based on the eyes of someone that already sees a handful of characters with this fundamental character template).
Also my point still stands that they could have been more creative with their choices by diversifying the roster even further with other existing characters or completely new ones that do not fall within the template. Also under a programmer's eye, it screams of lazyness as you aren't having to worry as much about catering to a completely new moveset with all new frame data and animations when you can simply reuse and modify existing data for what is a derived version of a base character, whilst only making new data for the slight differences. Not to say that it can be done instantly of course since any new data takes time to make, but they are either lazy or inefficient for going this path.
Finally, I hardly take difference in frame data or difference in hit boxes and timing as a massive difference between two characters that look the same at a base level. That's just because I'm looking at them simply as values within variables stored somewhere in the game that only change minor points of the character that do matter to die-hard and professional players, but hardly many other people (exceptions cases exist of course but they are always a minority). It becomes a subjective matter I guess between those that treat the minor details as just that, minor, and those who elevate them to being as important as the fundamental parts of a character like the look and the moves that a character can do. Reminds me a lot about the whole "Starcraft 2 isn't much different to Starcraft" thing actually. Bloody people, so fickle hehehe.
I don't have any interest in playing as the new characters but playing against them is pretty interesting. I mostly play as Chun and a little Sakura and it seems that both of those characters have been slightly improved. The biggest thing I've noticed in the short time I've played is that the damage on Chun's Ultra 2 seems to have been slightly increased. Which is pretty cool.
@ShiftyMagician: Nobody expected two new characters. A lot of people were expecting some unknowns from the Alpha series, or maybe even Alex from Third Strike.
@ShiftyMagician: Nobody expected two new characters. A lot of people were expecting some unknowns from the Alpha series, or maybe even Alex from Third Strike.
@ShiftyMagician: Nobody expected two new characters. A lot of people were expecting some unknowns from the Alpha series, or maybe even Alex from Third Strike.
@ShiftyMagician: Nobody expected two new characters. A lot of people were expecting some unknowns from the Alpha series, or maybe even Alex from Third Strike.
One day, Juli...one day!
Fuck you! Juni's better.
True story: Back in the days when I played Alpha 3 with any sort of regularity, Juli was really the only character that I could consistently beat M. Bison in arcade mode with. (I was not good at that game.)
@ShiftyMagician: Nobody expected two new characters. A lot of people were expecting some unknowns from the Alpha series, or maybe even Alex from Third Strike.
One day, Juli...one day!
Fuck you! Juni's better.
True story: Back in the days when I played Alpha 3 with any sort of regularity, Juli was really the only character that I could consistently beat M. Bison in arcade mode with. (I was not good at that game.)
ROLENTO!!!! SF5 will have cvs2 blanka and sakura watch!
@Aetheldod: After reading the eventhubs blog, Guile doesn't build as much meter from sonic boom as in Chocolate, all of his flash kicks do less damage, and U2 got a damage nerf
@ShiftyMagician: I understand where you're coming from about this, so then I say: its harder then you think.
I'm not going to get into the small differences that could mean a lot, but instead I'll just use this example.
From SF4 to SSF4 and now ae, there hasn't been any major gameplay patches between them. And yet, the tournaments and streams still showed an ever growing user base taking part in them. Is something really broken, too OP? It would have broken the game and nobody would have played it. But of course since the community is going on and getting stronger by the month, I would say there is still enough of a balance in there that the game evolves as people play the game.
Hows this possible? When SF4 for the PC came out, people found a half done deejay and bitched that he wasn't in there to begin with. Well what if he was deemed too broken and there wasn't enough time to fix him before it came out? Well that story ended with DeeJay being released finally in SSf4. Despite times when Capcom seems like it doesn't know what its doing, the final product they put out says otherwise.
Now there is rolento. Ono himself had pushed to have him in SF4 ever since they decided to expand the game in SSF4. And yet we are at AE and still nothing. It was in an interview with Either Ono or Seth at E3 that said Rolento couldn't have been in the new SF4 engine because there was no way he wouldn't be broken. Seeing as how Ono had really pushed for Rolento to be in ever since the announcement of SSf4,just think how many countless hours and resources was spent on a character just to have the final verdict be, we can't put it out. As questionable as the new characters they finally went with may be, Capcom is far from being Lazy. They have deadlines to make just like any other company.
As a compare and contrast analogy, look at MK9. The MK team had made a new game with the purpose of being accepted in the tournament community. They wanted it to be balanced and had free rein to switch hitboxes and frame data to be anything since it had been years since people played MK and this was supposed to be a reboot of the franchise. And yet, the game they came out with is being patched almost as frequently as Starcraft 2 is nowadays. Maybe some of those patches wasn't called for, and the game is balanced enough to not need them but the MK dev team sure don't think so.
So, how does this all effect me? Well, since I play casually and aren't hardcore enough to be really serious about it, what time I put in it, I want that to count. So in any new fighting game, I would have to spend a minimum amount of time learning at least one tactic or combo or something if I was to have a fighting chance. When something gets changed, I basically have to learn something new to keep up. Not so bad if its once a year, but a new patch every couple weeks that could wipe away any tactic developed as a sum of all their variables (hitbox, frame data etc), why should I even try? Maybe the more hardcore player would keep going at it, but thats not me.
PS (rereading your post to make sure I'm answering your question before I i reply): The final decision that Capcom went with is the one that will cater to the mass audience. You have two characters with fireballs and two with none. To some people, that's all they see. As much as they all seem to fit these templates in your head, you cannot play Ryu, like you would play Ken or akuma just because they are indeed different characters and is meant to be played differently. Without getting into how minor things can have a great impact, I hope you at least agree that the minor differences do indeed have a great impact.
@StaticFalconar: And this is why I love Giant Bomb. Very detailed reply and I thank you for that interesting perspective. Whilst I have my own views about how Capcom does their work at a technical level, I didn't mean to ever say that the little details mean nothing to absolutely everyone. Otherwise if a game didn't get the minor details right (like damage values and accurate hitbox detection), the game would go from sort of balanced to completely unplayable at a high level. Again, thanks for your pretty detailed perspective.
Also just to clarify, I was using the term templates to define the fundamental attributes that a designed character would inherit from the template. Of course at the deep level Ken is different to Ryu as well as Akuma. All I mean is they should be wary from continuing this path and making even more people with similar movesets but with different values to make them play slightly differently to other characters. I personally don't want to see a chunk of the game comprised of dudes in Gi's launching fireballs myself but again, pure subjective opinion on my part.
As a thought experiment (for anyone else that wants to chime in), if I made a Street Fighter game with 30 ryu models but make them all feel a little different from each other at the technical level, would they all be considered different enough that the SF game would be considered good, even if they all act in fundamentally the same way and have a similar look to each other (assume they are all re-skinned to look slightly different to each other)? That's the one question that I always look into whenever I see more fireball characters in a Street Fighter game. With how high level players talk about how important the nuances of characters really are (which of course they have an impact in the game or else why are they there), it seems like a game like this would work for them, but not for a mainstream market of people that may love visual and fundamental diversity in their fighter rosters, not just the technical differences that are as clear as day once you get into the game. What you guys think of it?
@ShiftyMagician: As much of a thought experiment as that is, it just wouldn't work out and be accepted in any significant audience. Even if you can find 30 distinct shades of a shoto, not everybody wants a character with a fireball. Going through the series, even in SF2 it wasn't all shotos, but for whatever reason, shotos became the iconic character everybody thinks of when they hear Street Fighter. Which, again bringing it full circle is why they had two characters with fireballs, and two without; balance.
If you care about SFIV you will buy it, it's that simple.
By that I mean, if you actively play the game competitively whether that be online or offline you pretty much have to buy this.
I like AE as a lot of turtling characters got hit in the balls with nerfs. Although funnily enough Sagat received no nerfs and is actually now right back to the top of the tiers pretty much. (not #1 or anything like in vanilla, though)
Static, do you use a shoto? Do you like fireballs? I dont.. unless its sakura.. otherwise its a zangief / cody / able pounding your face with their throws and crazy ass shoryuken tornadoes.
@ShiftyMagician: Honestly as a SF fan i have never liked fireball characters as everyone always played them. Sure they were usually the strongest but honestly they were just not my thing. when i go to gameworks i find myself standing around the 2 ssf machines waiting my turn and watching everyone play, i find myself noticing that barley anyone is using a character with a fireball except maybe the occasional dhalsim that would dominate because they knew how to use him instead of getting ken / ryu and just spamming shoryukens and Hadoukens. If capcom made a sf with 30 ken/ryu's and have slightly different feels to them the game would suck. Sure they would all be different on a technical level but the game would have no diversity. Yes SSF4 has half a roster with people throwing fireball like moves but they are also extremely different in what they are for and how they are supposed to be used with the characters other moves.
Upon what static was saying, the game gets patched almost once a week which usually seems like nothing but from the time i bought it to now, sagat has gone from awesome and can be played by the most casual to a character you have to understand and time to be able to beat anyone who has spent time learning their favorite fighters. I can say im more then a casual but in no way a hardcore player in fighting games because I just dont seem to ever make a dent in getting better to the point online becomes fun. Online you will fight almost every other round a ken or a ryu but when its friendly matches against friends or in town like gameworks people just pick their characters out of who they like and not what they know will destroy which alot of ssf4 characters are balanced to the point that its fair against almost anyone untill you fight let say ken.. or cammy.. sf4 cammy was a joke but in super she has become a being of supreme destruction when used by someone who has half a brain on what a quarter circle is and i will back that up against anyone who denies it *PS3* even against those ken loving tallywackers!
PS. F u static and your precision driving.... most of the time >:D
@Aetheldod: After reading the eventhubs blog, Guile doesn't build as much meter from sonic boom as in Chocolate, all of his flash kicks do less damage, and U2 got a damage nerf
Also, they added like four or five frames on startup to U2 so now it's nearly impossible to punish fireball spamming, and I don't think it's possible to FADC > U2 anymore because of it either. They also made it so any Sonic Boom that is punished results in a "counter hit" instead of a normal attack so it does more damage. I'm pretty sure no other character with a fireball gets punished by a counter hit.
So, we're back to SFIV. Sure, Guile's still more offensive, but they took away his FADC Ultra and he barely builds meter.
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