I don't understand why you guys are putting in so much effort to rebut Austin's piece. Some of you act like he's asking the developers to move heaven and earth because he wants diversity in games. A lot of you are acting in such a self-centered way, doing verbal contortions to justify you own viewpoint, that you don't seem to have any empathy for others'.

You guys are missing the point. So I say this as simply as I can: a VAST majority of mainstream video games have protagonists who have that skin color that most people think of when they hear the term "white people". As a fellow white guy, we take it for granted that we don't have to look hard for representation. Minorities are marginalized.

Any effort to reduce that marginlization, even if is done one game at a time, should be seen as a good thing.

And sorry, I'm trying to be civil about this. I'm holding back such vitriol right now. But "realism" is not a counterargument to diversity in the Witcher. Poland is not exempt. When we live in an age of the Internet, when everyone in the world has ample opportunity to learn about other cultures, ethnic homogeneity is no excuse. Not in Japan, not Poland, not anywhere.

I'm not saying anybody in this forum has said this, but if you don't think video games have a race problem, you're simply wrong. You're ignoring mountains of evidence to the contrary.

Thanks for another great blog post Austin, REALLY looking forward to reading more long form critique from you on here in the future.

I assume this thread exists so we can discuss it and talk about it. Not just say "Good job" or "Cool piece"

@hoodcommando: Fair enough. I'm guess I'll admit that I'm having a hard time understanding those who don't agree Austin's viewpoint. I don't think anyone HAS to, I just don't see how you can't.

I can't speak for the others, but I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with all of Austin's piece. Just a few points.

@eazeapeazea: I haven't read a single post which claimed that games don't have a race problem in whole 4 threads which already exist on the topic. Some of them, which focused on bashing Polygon, slightly implied that though. A handfull in almost a thousand replies.

On the first point, I appreciate it. Whether it is someone playing Devil's Advocate or someone sincerely disagreeing with Austin, proper rebuttals lead to better, more fleshed out overall discussions. (I'll leave it for you to decide on which side of this I fall with this response.)

On the second point, the contention here is that Witcher 3, in the eyes of many, is an example of a marginalized minority self representing within the world of video games that has such a problem with it. To many, it is in fact reducing marginalization.

With point two in mind then, we discover something that needs consensus for us to move forward: what exactly does "minority" actually mean, and who is in a position to actually make such determinations?

@eazeapeazea: I think you are being very hostile to those who disagree and I think so far the discussion is very civil (with almost all the posts). I think almost everyone who takes an "opposing" stance in this thread even says diversity in games as a whole is an issue. Speaking for myself, and others that I see in here, it's that they think this is the wrong game to pick a fight with. It's based off a specific source material. It tackles oppression and bigotry in its stories through use of typical fantasy races in an interesting and prominent way. It directly addresses homosexuality and sexism in parts. And the cultural essence of it (Polish and Slavic) isn't represented in other games out there. I have never seen any game tackle bigotry and oppression as well as Witcher 2 or 3 does.

The discussion is fine too! Disagree if you want. I like Austin's post even if I don't agree with parts of it. Just don't try to paint people in a light they aren't really coming from. I can't see how you're really reading the comments and coming to that conclusion.

Austin is an academic and I'm sure he's used to discourse and debate. This is what happens, you get different opinions and viewpoints and people express themselves. It's all good.

@eazeapeazea:

I'm not saying anybody in this forum has said this, but if you don't think video games have a race problem, you're simply wrong. You're ignoring mountains of evidence to the contrary.

It may have been said, but I think most are saying that this game in particular is the wrong place to have this debate.

I understand that this is a problem in general, but being Polish American myself (meaning I only have historical claim in this race, not really cultural) I feel trying to push this agenda on this game in particular (which actually strongly already discusses those themes in all of the games) I feel this argument centering around this game is marginalizing Polish people. Which is something that has been done for a very long time- even in the US. This may be why it hits such a chord.

I don't personally care about skin color, though. Cultural diversity is what is important, and that is what should be respected, to me. I feel the game treats that properly, and I think there are other games in which to have this type of discussion around. This one is more of a cultural touchstone that happens to reach a lot of people.

I feel, though, this discussion get's complicated because we're discussing art, and at what point does the art no longer belong to it's culture? Does that mean the art should change to suit it's world wide audience now or should it remain steeped in its culture?

These are complicated questions. I don't have the answer, and I feel Austin is basically saying he doesn't either. I think where I defer from him is that I don't think this game is the right place for this debate, and I think it kind of undermines the debate as a whole if you try to put it on every piece of media you consume. The debate is more important than that.

I personally will always lean on the side of maintaining culture. Whatever that means for the Polish, and The Witcher as a property, is not something I know enough about so I have to take their word for it when they say they are being true to their culture with their work here. It's not my place to ask that they deny their culture to suit a world wide audience. Even if they intended to have one.

This is just my opinion, though, and hopefully it makes sense.

I respect the developers and their creative decisions. They are not Americans, and we should not force our opinions or ideals on them. They should be allowed to create what they want, and how they want it. They didn't include other races for a reason. In fact I'm not sure they even need to explain themselves in any fashion.

The witcher 3 is one of the best games of the year for me, if not the best. Insinuating developers outside the US should tackle an issue outside of it's own culture is not respectful. Thus, while I think Austin's article is fine, I can't agree with it.

I don't think any culture is free of ethnic/racial issues.

It's super easy to be reductive isn't it? Look, I'll do you: "I don't understand the argument being put forth so I'll use sarcasm to show everyone just how little I know."

If you don't agree, cool, debate it. If you don't want to debate don't post. Drive-by bullshit helps no one.

There isn't anything valuable to say that Austin didn't with his own piece and the follow-up, so I'll just say thank you Austin, and beg you to not be discouraged by the vocal minority of bad-faith-arguers on here. Great to see you tackling this

think the game universe already handles racial diversity seriously, heck the Wild Hunt is a pack of elves who think they are the superior race who really really hate humans, while humans have their own problems with their local minority races dwarves, elves, and halflings. I don't think this game series is the right target for whoever is having a problem with this issue.

This, + the fact that it's kind of a bummer that The Witcher 3 is taking all this heat considering just how god-damn good it is. I mean, Game of Thrones has 0 p.o.c.s and GRRM describes the Summer Islanders in the book (stand ins for black people) in pretty exoticizing [is that how you spell it?] terms.

One thing that's rubbed me wrong from a lot of responses on the pro-Witcher side throughout the internet is the idea that "Oh it's based off medieval Europe, there were never people of color there," which is certainly not true and clear evidence of historical erasure. Western Europe was p tight with the Arabs for a while, taking a lot of their advanced sciences and translations which would help shape its history in the centuries to come. It's absolutely not absurd to say that there could have been a mixture, however slight, of the races (or at least some travelers...).

I think Austin's post was very well written and I can totally get behind what he's saying but I feel like this game shouldn't be the focus of under-representation of marginalized groups. Probably because it's being made by people who belong to an ethnicity who have been brutally oppressed and marginalized to an unbelievable extent in very recent history. Personally, I'd cut them some slack.

@marz: One of the issues is that fantasy often uses non-human species as a stand in for actual people of color. What would be the reaction if instead of dwarves and elves they were replaced with black/brown people? Why is it necessary to use allegory?

@eazeapeazea: sympathize with you man. My frustration has been growing both with the content and poor quality of the rebuttals, as well as the lack of charity that they show to underrepresented game players. The initial article that set this off was at its core such a simple request, without malice, for more inclusion, and the response has been a tidal wave of "Noooo! Impossible! You're the real racist!" Ugh, just ugh. I really wish game culture was nicer and more tolerant.

Its tiring to see people complain about lack of diversity anytime a game with a white character and white NPCs come out. It lacks respect for the vision of the creators and creates an environment where creativity is stifled for the sake of political correctness. Video Games are a vast medium where there are ample examples of non-white/non-male people featured in a hugely successful products like GTA: San Andreas, Half-Life 2, Tomb Raider, Metroid, Mass Effect and many more smaller games. Any argument against that is just a shows a lack of knowledge.
What is diversity for me? Its when a group of people can have their own identity, culture and history without outsiders forcing their own view upon them. America has plenty examples of their own. Can you have the modesty to let the Polish people share their unique world with the rest of us?

is skin color really the issue? i'm saying this as a person of color as well, maybe i'm desensitized to this but it really doesn't bother me at all. I don't think it's something CD Projekt Red has to rectify and something that should be asked to the author Andrzej Sapkowski for clarification.

@wilshere: It doesn't lack respect for any vision to point out things you're dissappointed with. Goes for any criticism, it's just an opinion.

@gyrfal: You see, this time dwarves and elves are stand-ins for Jews and Romani. Roughly, because they still have to adhere to a large extent to the fantasy template. Staying within this template was a very conscious decision by the author.

I guess the difference in who you think the other races stood in for with the reality should be enough to show you how different Polish racial issues are.

I suppose, like everything else in the game, it's not necessary. Now what?

@qrdl: Yeah, I've read the books, I know what they're an allegory for as written. I was using it more as an example of why stuff like this is worth questioning/criticizing in general.

Great post, Austin. I pretty much agree with everything in it.

Also yeah, the "justify having a character of color" response always makes me cringe. Why can't minority characters just be? Why can't there be unimportant minority characters without them having to justify their inclusion? As a gay man, I often see the same response when talking about LGBT in games and other fiction, and it's infuriating.

Just a quick write in to say: thank you for this piece. I especially appreciate thr fact that you owned up to your previous statements and chose to write this blog as a dialog with the community,not in the spirit of holier-than-thou 'bestowing of wisdom'. I can honestly say I am thrilled to have you at gb.

Also: the gb banhammer is strong

@gyrfal: OK, so you're basicly asking why do we find the need to use allegory in art? I guess that would question the existence of any worthwile fatasy setting in general. At least for me, because the only fantasy stories I could find worthwhile are those which try to say something about our world with the use of allegory. Or maybe ones that are so internally consistent that you can just admire the intelligence of the author and the rigidity of his imagination. Any setting which includes deus ex machina magic is doomed in that regard though.

So why I value the allegory exactly? I guess because it's a great teaching tool. To my mind, if you notice that what is said is not actually what is meant and perform the mental work to find the real meaning, it lands deeper and stays longer in your memory. The conclusion becomes your own personal achievement.

CD Projekt is a company that has made a name for themselves by listening to their customers. For example in the first game they were criticized heavily for unlocking collectible cards of the women that Geralt slept with, they dropped that feature in the sequel and improved their handling of romantic relationships in the second game, Triss playboy images notwithstanding. Now with the third game many of the reviews are mentioning how the writing for Geralt's relationships are well handled and there is a female playable character. Sure there is criticism for the way that Ciri is dressed and how enemies verbally abuse her but they've come far from their Nudie cards.

My gut says that CD Projekt Red is not ignoring the criticism and they potentially have an opportunity to start addressing the issue in their upcoming expansion content. Shoving racially diverse zombies into Resident Evil 5 was an attempt by Capcom to address the pre-launch criticism they were seeing but it came off a bit tone deaf to me. They were just shoving diversity in to appease their fans without really trying to say anything or try to make it work within their story. It just seemed like I was constantly shooting middle eastern zombies in the face while wondering "I've met tons of white guys from South Africa. Shouldn't I be shooting a lot more Caucasian zombies than this nice mustached zombie who made his way over from Pakistan?". So I worry about haphazardly throwing in diversity to appeal to the internet if the creators don't make the effort to have it make some sense, otherwise it becomes a token inclusion. I trust the Red team to figure this out though, if not in The Witcher universe than in Cyberpunk 2077 since they have full control over that Universe.

"So yes, I'm black. No, that doesn't mean that I think I have any special, physical traits given to me by my blackness." Well you do. They're not all great, like: black people are more likely to get lung cancer (despite lower exposure), high chance of stroke, high blood pressure happening earlier in life, greater chance for diabetes etc. But, genetically you're stronger (Cornell University study), more diverse genes with less gene mutations than Europeans, better Melanin protects against the UV light, babies advance faster, etc. That's another topic entirely. Just thought you should know.

On topic, there is an issue with people of color being under represented in games. I totality agree. I just am unsure if Slavic mythology is the best place for this fight. It comes off as extremely ethnocentric. We live in the melting pot (unfortunately, still mixing like oil and water in 2015) of the United States. Personally, I just don't expect to see white, black, or any other race of people being represented in a Japanese game; however, I do expect to see some of their culture I don't like (e.g. panty shots and other tropes). There is some crossover sometimes, like seeing a stag god in Princess Mononoke was a little strange (or Barret which may have been unintentionally racist), but it's not expected and maybe it shouldn't be. I hope I'm making sense.

Race is a difficult subject. We see someone's skin color and -unfortunately- many of us have prejudice (though they maybe subconscious). My Lebanese-Slavic friend (I usually just call him, "my friend Aden") is told to "check his privilege" by one group, while at the same time is being told by another group that, "he's an evil Muslim." It's insane. I just see people as people; but as a society, we keep putting people into these boxes where one size doesn't fit all.

I really like Gav (Miracle of Sound) on the Jimquisition podcast. He's Irish (like me) and has faced many of the same ethnicity problems (The Irish ethnicity has been targeted for centuries). He also wrote about the Witcher 3 in his tumbr (I think it's worth a look).

I might not always agree with you, but I'll always respect you and try and see things from your point of view. Hopefully we (the community) can have some good conversations.

I dunno, I think Science fiction used to have to speak in allegories and metaphors because otherwise they couldn't say the shit they wanted to say. I mentioned it before, but consider the craziness of America during the 60's LOVING Star Trek, even though it was showing this Liberal, pro-feminist, anti-racist, socialist future where there is no America, or Russia or anything, we're all united, During the fucking Cold War. I think the metaphors and allegories will always be a part of science fiction because there's a mastery to conveying messages, and making arguments to a crowd of people who might not be willing to hear you out if you're blunt about the subjects.

@eazeapeazea: I don't think I've seen anyone make the "realism" case here.

There is the matter of the source material...but I can't say I understand, or really seen a sensible, "realism" argument.

I know you mean well, Austin, but this kind of stuff really irks me. You're trying to foist certain cultural history where it just doesn't belong. Inserting a couple of black characters into a fiction with its own historical touchpoints (as fantastical as it can be) would be slavishly PC, and not nearly as progressive as you might think.

I completely agree. And I think a better question than "Why include them?", is "Why not?". Although that's what makes this specific topic strange. To me at least, it's revolving around maybe even the one big game this year where that "Why not" question seems to have a pretty understandable answer.

I hope that we keep having this conversation the rest of this year, and really however long is necessary. I'm hopeful, say, that Mad Max will address the conspicuous lack of indigenous peoples in that world, (Note: I've only seen Fury Road, but I know Tina Turner's in Beyond Thunderdome so maybe the original films already do?), but I'll be right along side the critics if they don't.

But while no game exists in a vacuum, no game must also be necessarily representative of any subject besides its own. And just as we should be welcoming of any voice that yearns for representation, we also should be tolerant of when we ask, "Why not?", and actually get an answer.

Hi everyone! I don't post much on the forums, but as person of colour with a mixed African-Western heritage, I thought it was important that I provide my opinion on the piece. a I haven't much time, so apologies in advance if my points are fairly brief & grammatically screwed.

I first want to state that I really enjoy articles such as the one above and Austin's earlier post. Quite often I'll see a fair contingent of people say something along the lines of "but why can't we just have fun video games and have a fun time [implied: without delving into all this quasi-politics]?" I don't think anyone has said it here, but it's a very closely linked point which Austin skirts in one of his articles (when he talks about people wishing to go back to a 'simpler time'). For me, the rebuttal is that, while video games are -at most - a fun distraction, within the context of video games and the industry, issues of race, gender, sexuality, mental illness etc. are really pertinent. There are a number of reasons for this, including gaming having a much more diverse audience now, who want to feel represented and represented fairly. It's a fair ask (and an understandable one, I think - it's natural to want to feel included in your hobby, and valued as a member of the targeted community; playing games with very few (no) POC, it can feel like you're on the outside looking in).

The more nuanced argument about race not existing was picked up by Austin in his post - it's a similar argument, in my eyes, to 'but I'm colour blind, I don't care what colour you are!'. Austin got it spot on with his notion of race being a sociological and historical construct as much as a biological one. This point in particular makes the whole thing a landmine - too often you'll see a POC in either games or media more widely, and they're basically just a standard white guy with darker skin. By which I mean, they are a POC, sure, but that's not really what I mean when I say I don't feel represented. There's a historical weight associated with different cultures (how do they speak, what are their priorities, how do they approach situations etc.) that matter far more than what they look like.

The penultimate point is a fairly popular one here which is that the Witcher 3 isn't the game to be having this discussion about. Now, full disclosure - I haven't played the Witcher 3 - all my points above are general points. Since I haven't played the game, I'm not going to weigh the ins and outs of its diversity, but I'll make a more general point that any game should be open for critique on representation unless there's a very good reason to the contrary. I.e., the burden of proof shouldn't be on POC to make their case for why they should exist, but should be on the content creator for why there's a very narrow representation of cultures. If the setting is Iceland 200 years ago, sure, I don't expect to see a thriving metropole. But from the briefest of glances at the Witcher and its lore, it appears that people do move around, and can cross continents - and that there is precedent for POC (or its equivalent) being part of predominately 'white' communities.

My final point is perhaps my most important one - the case for adding in POC can't be boiled down to a series of bullet point questions as to whether or not we would increase enjoyment/ decrease enjoyment/ make no difference. It's an understandable approach, but also one that dramatically undermines the richness and complexity of how diversity changes and shapes a community (and that community can be digital and fictional). Adding a POC, or someone from a very different cultural background isn't an additive constant, but it reshapes the fundamental algebra, the mechanics, of the community. Reskinning NPCs wouldn't make a difference, because that's not the point - reskinning NPCs wouldn't increase real representation. For games (as well as other media) to really deal with the wider point, a holistic approach needs to be taken.

Just in advance - I really don't have a lot of time to spare, so I may not reply to any comments on this; I hope if you read the above you don't see it as an attack, but rather my own viewpoint on the matter. Given my background and the subject matter, I hope it also carries some weight, even if it is a little scattershot in parts. Austin, I can't wait to see more of your writing, and am curious to what degree you agree with the above. Peace and love, everybody.

Wow you have no concept of European or middle eastern history do you.

You mean like the millions of white slaves in the middle east. The crusades, the ottoman conquest of Europe, the sacking of Constantinople and so on. YES there where interactions in a very VERY limited form how ever we are not talking the Byzantium Empire that borders the middle east and Europe. We are talking about a region in Northern Europe.

@chidona: Nothing to add, other than a tiny thank you for sharing your POV in such a considered way. Feel free to post more! We need more folks with Björk avatars unique perspectives to enrich these conversations. ;)

Hey Austin! I don't really have much to say on this (minefield of a) topic, but I really appreciate your willingness to write some more extended thoughts and directly interact with the community on this topic.

Also, the robo-banhammer is real, even if you've say... been a user on this site for like 7 years.

That of course is also true and actually every time somebody publishes a book here in Poland showing the behaviour of people during holocaust in less than flattering light the outcry is disgusting. Such situation actually calls for metaphorical books about the topic, even ones targeted at children (Animal Farm about Holocaust -> "Animal Holocaust", I must remember to show that movie to my future children).

The Witcher actually started out as a simple excerise in short fantasy form for a literary contest (I think in 1987), so superficial setting had to be kept in some traditional limits. It was the author's choice to use the setting as a vehicle for some social commentary along the main story. I guess it could have been the same with Star Trek at the beginning, I don't know the whole story of it's conception (Cpt. Kirk was not a particularily sympathetic guy)

Disclaimer I haven't play any witcher games nor have I read any witcher books so I might be in the wrong but It fantasy right? A fake mythology based loosely on polish history but with dwarves, elves, wizards and whatnot. You know what's great about fiction it doesn't have to present a idea literally.

If the game for example showed pogrom against a Jewish ghetto would people be up in arms and would probably be calling the devs racists, nazi sympathizers or worse but if it's against elfs is it fair game. Discrimination against Roma people is a very real thing and probably wouldn't fly as a theme in a game, call the Roma dwarves and there is no problem.

This can make the whole thing feel toothless but far easier to sell to a mass marked and it can make people think about these themes which it obvious has, given the amount of chatter about the game powerstructor and hierarchy, on these forums and elsewhere on the internet.

Could the witcher series have a more diverse cast of humans? Of cause they could and it would probably work just as well but its kinda refreshing, not the lack of black people, Indians etc mind you but to see a big game that have a more distinctly regional setting. Most big rpgs are depressingly generic medieval fantasy as filtered though the lens of years of pop culture and tropes. The witcher 3 is by most accounts I have seen (I have not touched it,) described as unapologetically polish and that is something I applaud and I wish more games would try to be regional not global.

@cornbredx:

Don't write "graf", please. Just... don't shorten words in general, please. Pretty please. *insert blinky puppy dog eyes* Respect your words and always spell them out. I know it's a quick and easy thing to do, (I guess it's just my opinion) but when writing something long form of this nature (even as a blog or forum thread) it reads better if you don't do that. Ever.

This thing you wrote is very very obnoxious. There totally is value in respecting words and it's so beyond okay to love the rules of writing but to try and *correct* someone's totally appropriate style- in an informal blogpost- is such a misunderstanding of the other things that are beautiful about writing and language I can't even stand it.

It's also incredibly diminishing to the topic being written about and just generally super rude.

So, speaking specifically about The Witcher, I do have one major problem with many of the arguments that it should have black people in it.

The lack of diversity in video games problem will go away when more diverse people are making video games. There's more diversity in the video gaming press than there is in the development industry - which consists largely of white (and Japanese) guys. My suggestion to all the people feeling their gender or race is underrepresented in video games: go make some video games. There's always room for more video games.

@austin_walker at some point you say "So yes, I'm black. No, that doesn't mean that I think I have any special, physical traits given to me by my blackness."

Don't black people have a way more "sun tolerable" skin? And that's the whole thing with being black (physically speaking), right? Your skin is different. The occurrence of skin cancer, for instance, on black people is vastly lower than on white people, I think. I may be wrong on that, I don't know. But that I would describe as a "special, physical trait", don't you agree?

The point being that blackness is a physical aspect to a human, therefore something physically has to be different to whiteness (is that a word?), otherwise what's the point of it? Different variations on nature/human evolution don't happen just for the fun of it.

You're arguing a point he isn't making and you know it. Whether someone has a higher chance of getting skin cancer or whatever isn't the point here. It should be read in context with that whole paragraph:

Because race is a social construct and not a reflection of innate, physical reality, its boundaries are deeply porous and flexible and its shape is unfixed. This is a beautiful thing. And it's why I can smile both when I get to make a black anime teen in Freedom Wars and why I can hope against hope that some day we'll get the Kendrick Lamar of video games.

Look at what Danny wrote on his Tumblr as a reply to this issue. That is basically the other side of the coin here which other people probably agree with. It also helps that Danny is European which is I think the big difference in opinion and world views at the crux of the matter.

Here is a LINK

@amyggen: I'm not arguing his point, I'm arguing a statement he made in his point. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, is it?

At the end of the day, Witcher 3 could have included non-European characters in the games, while still not breaking fiction and its ties to history. Hell, we have found 9th century Arabic rings in Stockholm, and there was a bunch of Vikings who lived and worked in Constantinople. However, I think it is a shame that point is overshadowing the beautiful celebration of European culture the game displays. From the clear Polish roots, to Nilfgaard's Welsh inspired language, to the wonderful tapestry of regional accents from the British Isles. This is one of the few times that these often marginalised cultures have been represented in big budget video games. It's one of the few games which speak in the same accent I do. It's one of the few games I have played which does not have an American or Japanese accent. So, by all means criticise the racial breakdown of the game, but please also celebrate its wonderful cultural diversity.

@Levius: The issue I have with the arguments for more diversity here is that just because every game "could" doesn't mean that every game "should". Most people don't know the history of Poland and how far that country has come. Without going in detail about post-war poverty etc, the fact that a Polish studio was able to create a game that rivals and in some ways surpasses some of the biggest developers on the planet is simply astounding. That a game which is so positively European in design and narrative, injected with so much unique Polish culture, has been embraced and positively received by the world is not only amazing but a huge source of pride. So after all that hard work when people turn around and say "yah it's a good ..but would be better if it had some black people in it" you sort of want to scream.

I also get why a lot of people will not understand this, because how could they, and they will maintain that it would be super easy to just add a few different skin tones - which it would, obviously, but thats not the point.