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BojackHorseman

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@nate_is_my_fake_name: It's hard to argue positively for a garb that has zero connection to their religion, and is a purely cultural garb created specifically for the purpose of not arousing men.

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@darkeyehails: I have never advocated banning the hijab. I think that would be a major mistake. I do however support moderate reformative muslims who don't wear the hijab. Very few who have the same opinion as me actually want to ban anything. Banning just create counter cultures, and is basically what the first post in this thread was about.

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@bojackhorseman said:
@nate_is_my_fake_name said:

The burka and hijab are used to oppress women only when they are forced to wear them. Women can also choose to wear them.

I don't agree with that statement. I think that garbs made for women with the purpose of men not raping them will always be oppressive.

Okay. Do you believe that a Muslim woman, who was born and raised in a secular Western country and who openly practices her faith is being oppressed if she chooses to cover her hair? She is capable of making her own choices.

Yes, I do still think the hijab is a oppressive garb. I'm not in favor of banning it, but I am in favor of praising the moderate reformative muslims who don't use it. Even though someone chooses something, it doesn't necessarily make it less oppressive. If a garb is made specifically for you not to tempt men into raping you, I find it strange that you would choose to wear it. It is also not possible to just separate a person's upbringing and cultural background from their choice of wearing the hijab. I would liken it to how some christian parents will tell they're children to be good christians, lest they burn in hell for all eternity. When they grow up, they might still hold that belief, but it's still oppressive to the human being.

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@bojackhorseman: Question. If transgender people (but let's be fair, you're focusing entirely on transgender women, not transgender men) can't go to the bathroom of their gender identity and are at a high chance of being harassed in the bathroom of their birth gender, where should they go?

Neutral bathrooms make up a very small portion of public restrooms so that's not always an option. I know quite a few trans people and my partner worked with lots of trans youth. The result of the focus on their rights to pee safely? They hold it all day. That can cause and HAS caused kidney damage in some of these people. Some also just don't drink or eat until they get home. This is a huge problem.

But I don't want to keep derailing this so this is the last I'll say on the topic.

Honestly, I don't know. And again, I've not taken a stand on the topic. I'm just noting that there isn't a easy, clear cut answer to this question, like many make it out to be. If I had to choose today though, I'd probably be in favor of transgendered people using the bathrooms of the gender they identify with, even though I personally am of the mind that gender is something you're born with, and stays with you the rest of your life.

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#5  Edited By BojackHorseman

@nate_is_my_fake_name said:

The burka and hijab are used to oppress women only when they are forced to wear them. Women can also choose to wear them.

I don't agree with that statement. I think that garbs made for women with the purpose of men not raping them will always be oppressive.

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Yeah, I'm aware of those stories. The thing is, they aren't about people who are actually transgender. "Claiming" to be transgender is not the same as being transgender, and using these as examples for why real transgender people shouldn't use the bathroom that corresponds with their gender identity is ridiculous. As a male, should I be afraid to use the same bathroom as a gay man, because he might attack me? Of course not.

Okay, I think you kind of need to check your attitude a little. I feel it's this kind of discord, where viewpoints are met with no understanding and barely listened to, that end up making these threads locked. That's my two cents at least.

As for your actual argument though.. Who are we to decide what actual transgendered people are? And these laws are surrounding gender identity, not necessarily transgendered people. No, you shouldn't be afraid of the gay man in your bathroom. But it's not that hard to envision a 10-15 year old girl being afraid of a 40 year old man in the women's bathroom for instance.

And who are going to decide who goes into which bathroom? I imagine it'd be a tough job for a waiter to tell apart a man in a dress from an actual transgender in many cases. I haven't really taken a stand on the whole toilet issue, but I do recognize that there are problems with it.

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@sethmode said:

Those are all people that did illegal things, all of which could have been done at a park or in a parking garage or literally almost any semi-public place, though. They could have been done in a bathroom where they weren't allowed to be in.

But they weren't though. And I don't assume that these "replaced" incidents at other places, merely adding on them. But that's just my personal thoughts. I think you're argument is kinda the same as the "if didn't have a gun, he would have killed him with a knife" argument that the NRA are throwing around. But as you say, we obviously don't agree on this part, and it's starting to veer off topic, so maybe best to leave it at that.

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#8  Edited By BojackHorseman

@sethmode said:
@nate_is_my_fake_name said:

So I don't really care that character, but sure, I might agree with him on some points. He also said on Real Time that he didn't want people who are confused about their gender identity to use the same public rest rooms as children, and while this is a unpopular opinion on the liberal side of the spectrum, I don't think it's unreasonable.

Can I ask why? Based on what evidence, exactly? Transgender people aren't "confused" about their gender identity, and they don't represent any greater threat to children than anyone else. Even if someone is confused, which part of that confusion means that they shouldn't use the same public restrooms as children?

Also, we already have laws for literally everything anyone might be scared about so...

I should clarify; I don't necessarily agree with that view point, but I don't think it's that unreasonable. And I don't think it's a stretch to assume that transgendered people are confused about their gender identity, but I'm certainly no expert. Also, there has actually been several cases where men have claimed to be transgendered to enter different bathrooms and wardrobes, which has led to sexual abuse.

There was a Seattle man who gained access to the women's locker room in a swimming pool, citing new laws. He then started to undress in front of children. There was a Toronto man who sexually assaulted women in a women's shelter shower facility. A drag artist in Virginia was arrested for filming two women and a five year old in a woman's restroom.

Some transgendered people, or at least people claiming to be transgendered, certainly are involved in pretty disgusting stuff made possible by these new laws, that's for certain.

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@bojackhorseman:

Have you honestly listened to what Milo has to say?

Don't be guilty of the same thing your accusing others of. You may not agree with Milo's political viewpoints, but the basis of his ideals are the same as yours-- freedom. As a matter of fact, he's said the exact same thing you did about hijab's being repressive. I'd go as far as to say the reason he lost his book deal, and speaking engagements (he resigned from Breitbart) is because of the very thing you're advocating against-- attacks on free speech.

Considering your original post, I agree with every concern you brought up. Yet my personal beliefs are probably the complete opposite of yours. I'm not an atheist and I'm not a liberal.

All of this brings up a good point: regardless of how we identify politically, we all have common ground somewhere. I think the one thing we all can agree on is freedom.

It's hard to take him seriously when he has vocal attacks against groups of people, and for some reason several times over claims that Leslie Jones is "barely literate". Also, he was a part of the whole gamer gate thing. So basically, I think he's a dick. But I do believe the best thing to do with trolls like him is to expose them to sunlight and let them crack.

So I don't really care that character, but sure, I might agree with him on some points. He also said on Real Time that he didn't want people who are confused about their gender identity to use the same public rest rooms as children, and while this is a unpopular opinion on the liberal side of the spectrum, I don't think it's unreasonable.

And yeah, like you say, we all have some sort of common ground. We just need to be better at finding it, and staying reasonable about the things we don't agree on.

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@koolaid said:

Why do you think this is a problem? What you are describing sounds a lot to me like people afraid to say their bigoted views because they don't want to be seen as bigoted. I would prefer they don't say bigoted things, so that's fine with me. I would VASTLY prefer if they wouldn't be bigoted, or recognized they have problematic views.

Who gets to decide what is okay to say and not? For instance, I think the hijab and burka are anti-liberal garbs that repress women, but you'll have liberals calling you a racist and bigot for saying stuff like that. How can the world move forward if the liberals don't even back up and defend liberal values?

Also, sunlight is the best disinfectant. Look at that Milo guy. Since Bill Maher invited him on his show, he's lost his job, he's lost his book deal and he's lost speaking engagements. And that's a good thing! Let dumb people say theyir dumb things, and people will learn that they are idiots.