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briarpack

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My opinion of CDPR has gone down gradually during the last couple of years. I more or less called things ending up like this back when Cyberpunk got delayed the second time in June so these latest developments haven't really affected that much; as far as labour practices and management goes, my opinion can't sink much lower at this point.

As a game Cyberpunk is okay, if you get lucky and can look past the bugs, poor performance and missing features, there's a solid core in there somewhere. Unfortunately getting this game to be of acceptable quality for everyone will no doubt come with an unacceptable human cost, because why stop now.

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briarpack

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@briarpack said:

I mean, yeah. This is a fundamental disagreement. I think tight regulation of overtime is a necessity, shaking crunch culture is hard otherwise.

Ok well I'd like to apologise for saying you don't understand and for being so hostile, I see now that we are both looking at the same thing just from a different angle. That's interesting and I like the positive nature of it. I think maybe you underestimate how many people enjoy and even need that crunch level of pressure though, it's certainly something I want in my day to day work and feel... basically bored without it. The long relentless hours though is an easier issue to talk about and we do seem to agree on that at least.

I hope the inevitable pressure on CDPR with the its buggy initial feedback and their reputation for 'post release support' doesn't become another bad example.

No hard feelings, sorry it got so heated :D

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...along side of it being regulated as an option, not a necessity, and I don't think the answer is a blanket nuke the whole thing approach like my new best friend @briarpack seems to think.

I mean, yeah. This is a fundamental disagreement. I think tight regulation of overtime is a necessity, shaking crunch culture is hard otherwise.

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#4  Edited By briarpack

@sarcasticmudcrab said:

@briarpack: so, say 20 people get together and make a game, they go into whats called crunch mode towards the end of the game BECAUSE THEY WANT TO and work long hard days, maybe even living in the office during that time. A thing they choose and want to do because vause they love the project they are working on.

And you think it's your right to tell people that they are wrong and they shouldn't do it and anyone who disagrees is unethical or a shitty person? All because in SOME places it is forced upon employees?

Wow that's some straight up arrogance right there.

If you are going to pick a fight, pick one that you understand beyond a few angry twitter posts.

Do they? Do all 20 of those people want to work themselves to the bone? None of them want to spend time with their families, or their families with them? None of them are, for example, against it but stay late because the guy next to them does, just because of peer pressure? There isn't a culture of pressuring workers into crunch in the video game industry?

There's a lot that you don't understand about the intricacies of this issue and I can't be arsed to teach you.

Please stop.

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briarpack

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#5  Edited By briarpack

@sarcasticmudcrab said:

@briarpack: sorry I don't subscribe to the social media trend of taking a word and twisting it into meaning something that is far more basic and frankly dumbed down in order to use it as a pivot to higher moral ground.

If you don't respect the full and true meaning of something and can't understand things on a more than black and white complexity level then theres no real conversation here. Just 2 people yelling 'no, you're wrong' at each other.

Yup, if you're not willing to do that much and say that I don't understand the subject while implying things like crunch culture being even remotely related to work ethic, then there's nothing to talk about. Good talk.

E:

"crunch is more bug related than ethic related in origin."

"A lot of people in the industry, at least the ones I was fortunate enough to work with, will tell you that they live for crunch"

I... What? The reason why crunch happens was not what I was talking about at all. Also, the core issue of crunch does stem from bad labour practices and worker exploitation, holy fuck. The mentality of "living for crunch" is unfortunately a massive part of the problem. You're not even minimizing the issue, you're now just straight up defending crunch in no unclear terms.

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@briarpack: the idea that crunch and bad working conditions aren't inherently the same thing still lost on you?

I hope that one day you get a job you love and understand that working at it very hard out of choice is not in anyway the same as being forced to work like that, and hope that helps you undrrstand that bundling hard work into the same umbrella category as exploitation is unhelpful and misinformed.

Please, please, please go read up on crunch culture in the video game industry so you have a basic understanding of what that concept encompasses.

There are a ton of articles and Schreier has written about this topic a lot and there's a pretty good talk about unionization from Nite Two of E3 2019.

It's weird that the term "crunch" is only used in connection with the video game industry.

I've been in the publishing industry for over 10 years now and live in a state of perpetual crunch on a monthly basis.

It's fine to be against a consumer product because you don't agree with the company's business practices.

But to assume that the practice is isolated to one industry or a handful of companies is naive.

If you're against crunch, your boycott list is about to grow exponentially and reach well outside the realm of video games.

Boycotts seem counterproductive to me. Unionization and conversation about the subject would be the key.

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#7  Edited By briarpack

@sarcasticmudcrab said:

@briarpack: ok you are obviously just looking for an argument and misunderstanding purposefully to get one. I mean you can't actually be struggling with such a basic concept for real.

I don't come to giantbomb for this kind of immature social media interaction.

Its a forum, its ok to state an opinion, if you disagree then fine lets talk but thetes no need to act like a twitter warrior here.

You can claim I've misunderstood you as many times as you want, but it's still clear that you were still minimizing crunch in the video game industry by saying that it's not that bad compared the service industry. And you've kept saying it.

That's cool, I didn't expect to see people defend crunch on Giant Bomb either, but the past year or so, and specifically Cyberpunk, has definitely dashed those dreams.

E:

"And for the record the sleeping in the office time was, by far, the highlight of my working career. Not everyone is opposed to hard work and long hours, its only when its forced on those that don't want to do it that it becomes a bad thing."

Yeah, okay, it's now abundantly clear that you don't know what crunch is and what kinds of pressure the culture imposes on people. Also, saying shit like "Not everyone is opposed to hard work and long hours" in context of crunch is fucking awful.

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#8  Edited By briarpack

@sarcasticmudcrab said:

You are also misundetstanding my point entirely, I am not saying 100 hour week is ok because other jobs have similar conditions or worse. I am saying anyone boycotting this product for it should look into other industries that also treat their staff like this and concider boycotting them as well.

Maybe if you just took the first sentence of you post, maybe. But in the context of the whole thing... No :D Don't try to pull that now.

If you were just trying to point out bad working conditions in the service industy (completely unprompted, which would be kind of strange) there would be no need to compare it to the gaming industry while telling people that "perspective is required". Absolutely vile shit.

@sarcasticmudcrab said:

As for do I understand crunch, well I've slept under enough desks in a sleeping bag to have a good idea. Your take is very...social media.

Why is it that now suddenly crunch does mean bad working conditions? Also... jesus christ.

E:

"Point is for anyone taking 'action' against it should be aware of how hypocritical they might be being in their crusade for justice."

H-hello? What? Where is the hypocricy in speaking out against crunch? What the fuck?

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briarpack

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#9  Edited By briarpack

@sarcasticmudcrab said:

@briarpack: nobody is doing that.

Please don't turn this forum into facebook.

I don't use Facebook, I wouldn't know what you mean.

What I do know is that you literally did try to minimize crunch by pointing out that in your opinion harder jobs exist. And absolutely no one asked. There is no perspective that is required to understand that 100 -hour work weeks are fucking bad. Take Screier's advice, it's addressed directly to you:

E: Okay, I'll take it from your edit that you literally just don't know the definition of crunch. Carry on...

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#10  Edited By briarpack

I couldn't help but notice that people in this thread are justifying crunch, this is a friendly reminder to stop doing that shit.

I'm going to keep this two virgils, I pre-ordered the collector's edition like a year and a half ago and bought a second copy just because it's likely that the collector's edition won't arrive by launch time. It's one of those games where I just have to play it myself regardless of what reviews say.