"Snipzor said:

"insanejedi said:

"I've yet to see a valid argument for gun control that I have not shot down yet. And guns is a right in the United States, as written in the constitution of the right to bear arms. I could write a whole essay about this but it basically boils down to gun control=bullshit."

Is an RPG a gun?I win."

Seriously though, an RPG-7 is a destructive device that is a Rocket Propelled Grenade, so it technically is not a gun.  "

Dudes don't do drive bys with RPGs and machine guns.  I know you guys live in video game fantasy land and like to imagine that, but most crime is done with stolen, small caliber weapons.

"Guns are the causes of wars, murders, and animal extinction. I wouldn't mind guns being used for self defense or hunting, but GAME?! You're going to destroy deer, bear, or other species if you do that, man! Sorry for sounding like a green-loving fagget, but it's the damn truth. Game isn't good.Just hunt animals for food instead. It's natural and follows the food chain. Doing game is murder."

It scares me to see some of you supporting the ban of guns. The right to bare arms is there for a reason. 

You know what country is really safe? Switzerland. Every household with a fully automatic Sig 550 assault rifle, and has one of the lowest gun violence rates in the entire world. And Suicide would not be down because your logic is faulty. Do you really believe that a kid that would have the mindset of killing himself with a gun would simply stop and change his mind because he doesn't have access to a gun? That simply isn't realistic, and it shows in the example you just given. Japan? Strict gun policies, 3rd highest suicide rates in the world. "

It's such a strange phenomenon that the majority of those that are usually arguing on Giant Bomb for more gun control in the United States aren't even from this country.

Here's an unrelated image, only because I think it's funny.

"It's such a strange phenomenon that the majority of those that are usually arguing on Giant Bomb for more gun control in the United States aren't even from this country.

Here's an unrelated image, only because I think it's funny.

"

"insanejedi said:

"Snipzor said:

"insanejedi said:

"I've yet to see a valid argument for gun control that I have not shot down yet. And guns is a right in the United States, as written in the constitution of the right to bear arms. I could write a whole essay about this but it basically boils down to gun control=bullshit."

Is an RPG a gun?I win."

Seriously though, an RPG-7 is a destructive device that is a Rocket Propelled Grenade, so it technically is not a gun.  "

Tell that to the numerous gun groups out there who intend to try to actually promote this for recreational use (Spearheaded by Ted Nugent of course, makes the killin' quicker and gibbier).So you are honestly under the belief that no firearm should be banned? Because that is absurd. In fact, the constitution was written when squirrel riffles were available. SQUIRREL RIFFLES!!! The people who wrote the constitution had no idea that the guns of today would be invented. So the idea that "The Founding Fathers would want no gun control in place" is immediately shot down (Haha, get it?)Then there is the fact that zero regulation never works. Zero regulations mean that there would be no waiting time on gun purchases, no age restriction (Capitalism suggests that profit is more important than morality, there will always be the eventual seller for young), and certainly no ammunition limits. Do you know how many people are paranoid in society (Actual paranoia based on psychological statistics and standards)? Do you realize how INSANE people are acting now because of populist outrage? We are talking context here, lack of gun control would mean people with psychological ailments wouldn't be screened for eligibility (Not that they are now).There, gun control is necessary. Especially now."

"insanejedi said:

You know what country is really safe? Switzerland. Every household with a fully automatic Sig 550 assault rifle, and has one of the lowest gun violence rates in the entire world. And Suicide would not be down because your logic is faulty. Do you really believe that a kid that would have the mindset of killing himself with a gun would simply stop and change his mind because he doesn't have access to a gun? That simply isn't realistic, and it shows in the example you just given. Japan? Strict gun policies, 3rd highest suicide rates in the world. "

I could smell the red herring from far away.There are certainly many reasons as to why crime is low in Switzerland and why Japan has a high suicide rate. Population comes to mind, but so does religion and demographics altogether. But then there is the social aspect of both countries. But guns have nothing to do with crime or suicide in either of those two countries."

Okay I should clarify my statement. I have yet to find an argument for current gun control that makes any sense. I have no idea who promotes use of RPG-7's for recreational use, it's not a gun. It's a rocket launcher. The NRA or more specifically Wayne Lapierre finds the argument absurd that RPG's are part of the second amendment. So I don't know who you've been talking to, maybe the Braidy Campaign who makes and spins lies to try to push their anti-gun agenda. Traditional bolt action, semi automatic, revolver action, firearms should never be restricted for the actions of people who don't follow laws anyways. "

I won't get into the whole debate on Gun Control entirely but I will say I think there is no reason for anyone (civilians) to be owning an Assault Rifle. You aren't going to be using something like that for hunting.

The 2nd Amendment is old and outdated. If you just look at this from a loose constructionist perspective (the way the Founding Fathers hoped), you would realize this. The Europeans are getting by just fine with 'so few' killing machines. Seriously, the right to kill should not be protected by 'natural law.'
People wouldn't have to worry about robberies and self defense in the first place if there were a smaller disparity between the rich and the poor in this country. It's all the conservatives/libertarians' fault for backing this nonsense anyway.

"Which is exactly my point. The accessibility of guns has nothing to do with suicide rates. Thanks for reassuring my argument. Plus these statistics are based on per 100 000 people. Crime however has a very DIRECT correlation to crime rates. And infact, the correlation is that the higher proliferation of guns in a particular area, crime actually LOWERS, and the area's with stricter gun control, crime actually increases in some area's or at most doesn't do anything at all. Why? Think about it, if you were a criminal, would you ever go to an area which the victoms of your crime have a similar or even greater ability to take you down as you do of them? Would you shoot up a police station where everyone there basically has a gun? Or would you shoot up a school which you know everyone doesn't have a gun? "

insanejedi said: *sigh* Okay, so you have the option of jumping off a bridge and shooting yourself in the head. If you have a really bad day, you might consider killing yourself, and if a gun is available, all you have to do is pull the trigger. If your choice is jumping off a bridge, you have to go to the bridge which gives you time to think about the mistake you are making. I know this because I was once suicidal.

The only reason why Japan has such a high suicide rate is because their culture puts a tremendous ammount of pressure on their people. I wonder what the suicide rate in Switzerland is, and how many accidental deaths a year due to guns they have. 

"

It's certainly not easy to pull a trigger than yourself, but when you are assured an instant death its a hell of a lot easier than slitting your wrists and waiting to die or trying to drown yourself. Guns are appealing because they are quick. They are also dangerous because they are quick. You come home, think to yourself "I wish I could die" and then you remember the gun, put it in your mouth, and pull the trigger. all of that could happen in 2 minutes or less. If you want to cut yourself with a knife, you know that you will be sitting on the ground bleeding for minutes, in severe pain. No one wants to go out that way.

How is the fact that suicide is high in switzerland because of euthanasia differ from Japans suicide rate due to inproportionate stress? Not to mention that so many depressed people in Japan start suicide groups which do it together, making it hard for people with cold feet to not kill themselves.

"

"insanejedi said:

Okay I should clarify my statement. I have yet to find an argument for current gun control that makes any sense. I have no idea who promotes use of RPG-7's for recreational use, it's not a gun. It's a rocket launcher. The NRA or more specifically Wayne Lapierre finds the argument absurd that RPG's are part of the second amendment. So I don't know who you've been talking to, maybe the Braidy Campaign who makes and spins lies to try to push their anti-gun agenda. Traditional bolt action, semi automatic, revolver action, firearms should never be restricted for the actions of people who don't follow laws anyways. "

Now we are getting somewhere, this is much better.Understand my position is moderate, bold action/semi automatic/revolver action firearms are fine (Tell me if I am missing something here). Firearms of a larger caliber (Not that kind of caliber) shouldn't be sold to regular civilians and screenings should be done for every person regardless of purchase. Gun control doesn't revolve around the availability of guns as a whole, but rather the quantity that can be purchased and the people who buy them.Would you be able to concede that this is a fair idea (Even the quantity restriction?)?"

"AgentJ said:

It's certainly not easy to pull a trigger than yourself, but when you are assured an instant death its a hell of a lot easier than slitting your wrists and waiting to die or trying to drown yourself. Guns are appealing because they are quick. They are also dangerous because they are quick. You come home, think to yourself "I wish I could die" and then you remember the gun, put it in your mouth, and pull the trigger. all of that could happen in 2 minutes or less. If you want to cut yourself with a knife, you know that you will be sitting on the ground bleeding for minutes, in severe pain. No one wants to go out that way.

How is the fact that suicide is high in switzerland because of euthanasia differ from Japans suicide rate due to inproportionate stress? Not to mention that so many depressed people in Japan start suicide groups which do it together, making it hard for people with cold feet to not kill themselves.

"

  Firearms are simply tools, much like an SUV can either be used to take the kids to soccer practice or could also be used to run down a group of people on a street corner.  "

"insanejedi said:

"AgentJ said:

insanejedi said: *sigh* Okay, so you have the option of jumping off a bridge and shooting yourself in the head. If you have a really bad day, you might consider killing yourself, and if a gun is available, all you have to do is pull the trigger. If your choice is jumping off a bridge, you have to go to the bridge which gives you time to think about the mistake you are making. I know this because I was once suicidal.

The only reason why Japan has such a high suicide rate is because their culture puts a tremendous ammount of pressure on their people. I wonder what the suicide rate in Switzerland is, and how many accidental deaths a year due to guns they have. 

"

You think it's easy to pull the trigger on yourself? The end result is the same and the consequence is the same. You die. I don't know how you would know it would be easier to kill yourself with a gun then jumping off a bridge unless you somehow had 3 lives. I could go up to my kitchen right now and slit my wrist and die, and all i had to do was swipe my hand with a blade. Same can be said of any other suicide method. Discriminating guns is unfair and unjustified and is just scapegoating. If you want to prevent suicide, you do it the RIGHT way, talking to kids, setting up programs to let kids express themselves, and setting up environments with good trustworthy people. Is it easy? No. Is it right? Yes.Suicide rates are high in Switzerland BECAUSE euthanasia is legal there, so that number is grossly and unfairly inflated compared to everyone else who let old crippled men shrivel and die in hospitals.  "

It's certainly not easy to pull a trigger than yourself, but when you are assured an instant death its a hell of a lot easier than slitting your wrists and waiting to die or trying to drown yourself. Guns are appealing because they are quick. They are also dangerous because they are quick. You come home, think to yourself "I wish I could die" and then you remember the gun, put it in your mouth, and pull the trigger. all of that could happen in 2 minutes or less. If you want to cut yourself with a knife, you know that you will be sitting on the ground bleeding for minutes, in severe pain. No one wants to go out that way.

How is the fact that suicide is high in switzerland because of euthanasia differ from Japans suicide rate due to inproportionate stress? Not to mention that so many depressed people in Japan start suicide groups which do it together, making it hard for people with cold feet to not kill themselves.

Edit: Thought you might find this interesting.

"

"Ah the so called "High-Caliber" argument which is totally misunderstood who don't know anything about firearm calibers. We aren't playing Goldylocks here, there is no "just-right bullet" in fact that just-right bullet in between big bullets and small bullets is probably most fit to kill a 200-300 pound man than any other bullet. High caliber weapons are used to kill big game, I mean BIG, like elephants, hippo's, lions and everyone else in the "big five". A 7.62x39 which is the bullet that the AK fires is desinged to kill a 100-250 pound man. The 30-06 or the 303 winchester is designed to kill a deer weighing litterally a 1000 pounds. As for the amount purchased it basically doesn't matter when it involves crime, barring from the fact that criminals basically use guns that are bought from the black market anyways, they would only use 1-2 guns max in a crime, even school shootings. You only need 1 to start shooting, why need more than that? So I don't know what you would achive by limiting the number of guns a person can buy. "

Obama never said anything about taking away the 2nd ammendment. I don't know why anyone ever thought that.

"insanejedi said: It's certainly not easy to pull a trigger than yourself, but when you are assured an instant death its a hell of a lot easier than slitting your wrists and waiting to die or trying to drown yourself. Guns are appealing because they are quick. They are also dangerous because they are quick. You come home, think to yourself "I wish I could die" and then you remember the gun, put it in your mouth, and pull the trigger. all of that could happen in 2 minutes or less. If you want to cut yourself with a knife, you know that you will be sitting on the ground bleeding for minutes, in severe pain. No one wants to go out that way.

How is the fact that suicide is high in switzerland because of euthanasia differ from Japans suicide rate due to inproportionate stress? Not to mention that so many depressed people in Japan start suicide groups which do it together, making it hard for people with cold feet to not kill themselves.

Edit: Thought you might find this interesting.

"

"insanejedi said:

"Ah the so called "High-Caliber" argument which is totally misunderstood who don't know anything about firearm calibers. We aren't playing Goldylocks here, there is no "just-right bullet" in fact that just-right bullet in between big bullets and small bullets is probably most fit to kill a 200-300 pound man than any other bullet. High caliber weapons are used to kill big game, I mean BIG, like elephants, hippo's, lions and everyone else in the "big five". A 7.62x39 which is the bullet that the AK fires is desinged to kill a 100-250 pound man. The 30-06 or the 303 winchester is designed to kill a deer weighing litterally a 1000 pounds. As for the amount purchased it basically doesn't matter when it involves crime, barring from the fact that criminals basically use guns that are bought from the black market anyways, they would only use 1-2 guns max in a crime, even school shootings. You only need 1 to start shooting, why need more than that? So I don't know what you would achive by limiting the number of guns a person can buy. "

I wasn't talking about that kind of caliber, I was talking about rank."

I don't get it...you say Obama doesn't plan on banning gun sales so why the hell are you stocking up?  Buying more guns will not affect any ammo taxes you were talking about it will only require you to BUY MORE ammo. 

"GrilledCheez01 said:

"I don't get it...you say Obama doesn't plan on banning gun sales so why the hell are you stocking up?  Buying more guns will not affect any ammo taxes you were talking about it will only require you to BUY MORE ammo.  "

The issue seems to be that his dad(?) thinks that Obama wants to ban gun sales and is telling him to stock up."

"insanejedi said: Your link doesn't have any numbers attached to it, so while I'm sure that other forms of suicide went up, i can't tell whether it rose to the same number or not. If you can find one with some numbers in it, let me know. 

Also, it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that Japanese people are under incredibly high stress. Honestly, do you really not know that? Ask any knowledgable person and they'll tell you that Japanese people are some of the most stressed in the world. I dont often use the phrase "common knowledge" but this is a case where it most definately applies.

"

Just a brief thought about the Second Amendment and Democratic Federal Administrations.

They learned long ago that the gun lobby in America is far too powerful to ever overturn the Second Amendment. Instead, they've employed willful ignorance and sophistry to impose de facto gun bans. Their lawyers interpret the Second Amendment as granting the right to the GOVERNMENT to bear arms, not the citizen. This is patently ridiculous when you consider that none of the original amendments confer rights to the government, only to the people, and that these amendments confer obligations and limitations to the government. Now, with the DC municipal ban being overturned, this playing-dumb tactic with the Constitution might not work much longer, but all that's needed to reverse this momentum is to have another Democrat-appointed judge in a State Supreme Court to uphold a municipal gun ban on interpretive grounds.

Of course, next time a new Supreme Court Justice is nominated, the balance of power could shift to the left, and a municipal government that would rather spend millions of dollars on civil lawyers and propaganda than beef up crime-prevention and at-risk youth-outreach in their city could have their ban challenged again (using the DC overturn as precedent), but have that overturn be nullified. Since we all know, judges from both sides of the aisle occasionally like to ignore precedent, and make judgments based on political expedience, which goes against the articles in the Constitution that discuss Judicial Independence.

Let's have a look at the specific wording of the Second Amendment:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Pretty simple, right?

A well regulated milita being the military and police portions of the government structure. The libertarian interpretation of this amendment argues that this means the people need the right to own weapons to protect them against their military or police force if these forces ever become too opressive

The modern left interpretation of this amendment argues that this means nothing more than the fact that the military and police need guns in order to do their jobs.


I'll leave it up to you to decide whether or not the Democrats and their lawyers are trying to pull one over on the people of America.

I'm not discrediting them, im just saying that they never said whether the number of bridge jumpers actually matched the number of gun suicides, so it is misleading. "

"insanejedi said:

"AgentJ said:

"insanejedi said: Your link doesn't have any numbers attached to it, so while I'm sure that other forms of suicide went up, i can't tell whether it rose to the same number or not. If you can find one with some numbers in it, let me know. 

Also, it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that Japanese people are under incredibly high stress. Honestly, do you really not know that? Ask any knowledgable person and they'll tell you that Japanese people are some of the most stressed in the world. I dont often use the phrase "common knowledge" but this is a case where it most definately applies.

"

So you are going to discount the credibility from the University of California from the Department of Psychiatry because there are no numbers attached next to it? "

I'm not discrediting them, im just saying that they never said whether the number of bridge jumpers actually matched the number of gun suicides, so it is misleading. "

Actually no, I have never heard that Japanese people are more prone to stress than other nationalities.

"Obama never said anything about taking away the 2nd ammendment. I don't know why anyone ever thought that.

But anyway, why do people feel such a need to own guns? I can understand if you live in a bad neighborhood and you need one for self-defense. But is there really any need to own a assault rifle or a sniper rifle? What, so you can kill animals and then hang them up in your living room and feel better about yourself? People in this country just seem to use their guns as expensive penis enlargers. Should guns be illegal? No because it's in the Constitution and it's your right as an American. But I just don't see the point. 

"

"MB said:

"Actually no, I have never heard that Japanese people are more prone to stress than other nationalities."

Interesting. Have a link."

"insanejedi said: The word "offset" can be interpreted differently, because in its most literal use, offset would mean an exact number of bridge jumpers replaced the number of gun-users, which would be an incredible coincidence. I was looking for a "more" or a "less" at least.

"insanejedi said:

"AgentJ said:

"insanejedi said: The word "offset" can be interpreted differently, because in its most literal use, offset would mean an exact number of bridge jumpers replaced the number of gun-users, which would be an incredible coincidence. I was looking for a "more" or a "less" at least.

Does it really fraking matter? Really? Off set means that basically the number of leapers compensated for the number of firearm related suicides. Meaning that there is a potential that yes, gun control can save a few suicidal lives, but you also have to account potential margin of error that comes from these studies, and these studies also do not exist in a vacuum so you have to account for that as well. The word offset though indicated that the difference made from gun-control to non gun-control was minimal at best. Tell me if that's really worth sacrificing freedom for?   "

http://www.ichv.org/suicideandguns.htm
"

"Suicide is still the leading cause of firearm death in the U.S., representing 55% of total 2005 gun deaths nationwide. In 2005, the U.S. firearm suicide total was 17,002, an increase of 1.5%from 2004 national gun suicide numbers. The state of Illinois saw a nearly 10% INCREASE in gun suicides in that same time, from 387 in 2004 to 424 in 2005. Most suicides in the U.S. are committed with firearms."

This implies that as there are more guns that more gun suicides caused by them

"Access to lethal means, especially firearms, greatly increases the likelihood that someone will commit suicide. A gun in the home is 11 times more likely to be used to attempt or commit a suicide than to be used in self-defense."

This implies that guns are used more for suicide than for protection which completely erases any good the guns may do.

"Unlike suicide attempts using other methods, suicide attempts with guns are nearly always fatal"

While it doesn't say what the percentage of suicide attempts with other methods are, its a statement out of the "CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2005." which is just as reliable as your source. I'm not saying that there should be gun restrictions, in fact i have said the opposite a number of times now, which you seem to be forgetting.You started this by saying that countries with a lot of guns have fewer gun related deaths. Its not about whether I think that they should be outlawed or not, but about the facts.

"

What about the other stats, like the one about how suicide attempts with guns are almost always fatal unlike other methods? This returns to what I was saying earlier about how guns are more dangerous than other forms of suicide. People don't jump from high enough, and then get help for their depression. People stab themselves, and are either saved or save themselves, and get help for their depression. With a gun, its usually pointed at their brain, so theres little chance of failing, which means less chance of getting help.

"What about the other stats, like the one about how suicide attempts with guns are almost always fatal unlike other methods? This returns to what I was saying earlier about how guns are more dangerous than other forms of suicide. People don't jump from high enough, and then get help for their depression. People stab themselves, and are either saved or save themselves, and get help for their depression. With a gun, its usually pointed at their brain, so theres little chance of failing, which means less chance of getting help."

"AgentJ said:

"What about the other stats, like the one about how suicide attempts with guns are almost always fatal unlike other methods? This returns to what I was saying earlier about how guns are more dangerous than other forms of suicide. People don't jump from high enough, and then get help for their depression. People stab themselves, and are either saved or save themselves, and get help for their depression. With a gun, its usually pointed at their brain, so theres little chance of failing, which means less chance of getting help."

You make that sound like a bad thing. Last time I checked, efficiency is a good thing. "