Spoilers: this post is full of frustration. You have been warned. Seriously, I get frustrated again just looking at it.

Disclaimer: I'm not comparing WoW as a whole to single player games! Just comparing similar elements used in a different way elsewhere!

Teaser: Last weekend a friend sent me a scroll of resurrection because he wanted that stupid pet for his character as a reward.

I hadn't played WoW since Wrath of the Lich King launched which I didn't buy. Back then I just bought Burning Crusade for cheap since that was old and I wanted access to the new characters (hadn't played for over a year at that point as well). I played my first character on vanilla WoW till level 59 - it just got so boring I didn't even care to at least reach the original level cap.

I made it to level 42 with my Blood Elf while the others were having fun with the brand new Death Knight and stuff. I got bored again, basically I had seen all the stuff beyond the new starting area in my previous playthrough and finding people to go into dungeons with was still somewhat of a pain (the over abundance of damage dealers did its part, sure).

When Cataclysm launched, I wanted to use the free game time Blizzard threw at me to check out the world in its original state and then live through the transition and check out the changes just out of curiosity. I say wanted to because I never did, I just didn't care enough.

So, as I said, last weekend I got the rez scroll and had free game time again. I checked out the cool new installer and was up to go back to the new and improved Azeroth (since the scroll came with a free character transfer to the realm my friend is on and a bump to level 80 including flying mounts and blahblahblah). Once I forced those 10gig down my pipe, I clicked play and went back to my Blood Elf who suddenly hung out in Orgrimmar for some reason (don't remember leaving her there but whatevs). With the level bump came preset new equipment and my talent tree got reset but automatically respecced according to the specialty I chose during the resurrection process. That was weird. So off to questing.

Upon finding my quest log empty, I decided to check out all those yellow !s with my new flying mount. At least they're helping you with way points on the map now since the world is so fucking huge and you are so damn slow. I must've started the Cataclysm main quest line because I was told to check out some vision in a pool which I had to google because I couldn't find a pool. Turns out the thing was tiny and right next to me. Not fun.

Then, I thought I'd fly around to check out the transformed areas finally. On my flying mount! Must be awesome! ... No it wasn't. That thing apparently has 280% flight speed - so why does it still feel like I'm swimming in a pool of honey! My god, traversing the world was sooo frustrating, especially since I just came off of playing Xenoblade which has instant fast travel to all major and even minor locations. No hassle whatsoever! This was just tedious and boring. I also got into my first fight, by the way. While flying over Ashenvale(?) I saw a giant fire elemental sitting on a volcano and decided to fry him. He died quickly but then I fell off the volcano and had to walk back to my body (didn't wanna start off with the item damage penalty) and was reminded how annoying that process was.

Screw that, I thought to myself and went to the next quest objective - riding the boat to the front lines or something. What's nice is that they actually scripted some sequence where the boat gets attacked and you end up underwater where you have to save some of the dudes and gather equipment before you can make your way to solid ground again. But then and there a huge problem revealed itself. The quests are FUCKING TERRIBLE! My god, I forced myself to give the game a chance to win me back. I was close to quitting after the FIRST quest. "Kill X crabs and collect Y shells". It's been YEARS and two major expansions since I last played and NOTHING changed! The slow movement speed and snoozefest-combat make these quests so unbearable.

What was the next quest? The area is not safe, "kill X Naga duders" and after "collect X number of the shit we lost". Seriously? I mean, sure, you basically do that kind of stuff in every RPG but the way they present this to you and the mechanics are so ancient and simply unfun it's almost painful. Again, I have to mention Xenoblade because I spent 30 hours with that over the last two weeks (70+ total so far) and it's fresh on my mind. From an objective point, the quests aren't that different. "Kill X number of that monster", "find Y of those thingys for me". The difference is a) your character has a dialog with the quest giver, not just a text block explaining what you need to do which you don't read anyway and b) YOU DON'T HAVE TO WALK BACK TO TURN THE QUEST IN!

I should make this bigger:

YOU DON'T HAVE TO WALK BACK TO TURN THE QUEST IN!

This was such a revelation in Xenoblade; World of Warcraft basically feels unplayable and broken without it. The worst thing about it is that you usually get sent right back to where you just collected the stuff for the previous quest to do more uninteresting shit. I'll call that Yo-Yo-Gameplay(TM). You can back and forth between the same two areas and have meaningless interaction with either an NPC or a group of enemies. I was glad I had a Blood Elf specialized in Demonology so I could summon some hell beast to defend me, saving me from pressing 1, 2, 5, 6, 1, 2, 5, 6, 6, 2 (see, I switched up the order to avoid falling asleep) longer than I needed to.

After I rode around on a seahorse in a scripted quick time event to tame it, I was apparently finally free to leave that horrible underwater area where I soon ran past every enemy because the combat was just that unappealing to me. I also died a lot because I stopped paying attention to the enemies at some point out of boredom. My demon wasn't strong enough to take care of business alone, it seems. Just walking around was a pain as well since I pulled aggro pretty much constantly from the nearby enemies no matter where I went (still in the underwater area where everyone is lvl 80-ish as well).

I gave up once I found the way to the overworld to open up flight paths to the main continent. It seems unbelievable that I managed to level my character to 59 back when they hadn't even introduced all the improvements to make things more convenient. Unfathomable. I think I spent two hours and all of it was just terrible.

In my opinion, WoW is (or at least has become) a terrible game that has aged extremely badly. Blizzard needs to step their game up tremendously with their Titan project because the basic gameplay in WoW just does not hold up. Or maybe it's just not for me and this exact barebones interaction that requires zero effort but simply lots of endurance is why this has such mass appeal. A facebook game without facebook and better graphics, is what it sounds like when I think about it.

Thankfully I didn't pay for it again.

*sigh*

Back to better games.

Convenience is the bane of a good MMO. It's making everything more generic, simplistic, and boring in the name of casual fun.

Blizzard actually making the game too easy for everyone around Cataclysm is what made me quit and start playing EVE.

In a weird way, I agree with what you wrote, but for completely different reasons. WoW is a joke because of what it's become, and it has aged pretty badly in my view.

Once again, this is coming from an EVE player, so take it for what you will.

@Giantstalker: Maybe they made it more convenient in all the wrong places? I don't know, maybe I'm just burnt out on the world. Remember back when I played it first (2005? or 06?), I had no trouble walking around (I had to borrow the money for my first mount from the guild back then, no way I would ever make 40 gold!) and through Stranglethorn over and over. I'm guessing it was just exciting to be in this huge world for the first time with tons of other people. But now? I had not one second of fun during my session.

I really hope Guild Wars 2, The Secret World, TERA and Titan bring something fresh and exciting to the table again...

PS: never played EVE, the only thing I know is that Dave loves it so it MUST be hardcore :P

Having that automatic quest turn in feature in Star Trek Online has been a nice touch there but I think that WoW doesn't hold up now due to the subscription (which seems outdated now with just about every other going microtransaction or at least what EVE does which is have elements in the game that can offset the subscription (how about WoW doing daily quests for tokens, do 5 a day for 5 days then turn those 25 tokens in from those for a free week of WoW added to your subscription?). As someone who first started playing MMOs with WoW then going on to try just about every other MMO after that (tons of free or short lived ones) to see how the gameplay has been evolved or at least fit in the world of the game better, WoW just doesn't hold up for me. If I were to get the newest expansions I'd spend most of the time just seeing the world & that's it as I just enjoy playing with friends, exploring & avoiding the hassle of raiding (too much time commitment for a possible successful run). Also when playing through Wrath of the Lich King I found that with the constant amount of change going on in WoW (with the weekly nerf/patch/boost changes) that they kept stabbing themselves in the foot of trying to keep the world going plus the game at that point was just too damn easy, as my main at that point were either rogue or warlock I got used to killing a lot but not able to survive much but with Wrath I was able to just breeze through all the way to the level cap without much problem.

I love WoW, but god damn is it boring.

Wait, is that really what Xenoblade looks like? That's freaking gorgeous!

*runs off to buy a wii*

But seriously, great write-up. I didn't ever jump on the WoW train, but as someone who has played a lot of MMOs over the years I completely agree with your comments. The formula has aged, and I feel it needs an evolution.

shouldn't have to google any quests anymore, just turn on the quest helper. everything appears on the map. easy peasy.

in general i am not surprised by the revelation that a single player game functions differently in an MMO.

quests in WoW are time sinks, the real game is in the dungeons. ideally playing with friends. and if you aren't playing with people you like then skip an MMO. do single player games.

I enjoyed Cataclysm. Even stuck around longer than I planned for. Even picked up raiding again until the hardmode grind set in. I still enjoy leveling in fresh content. Early 5-man dungeon progression is my favorite part of the WoW experience. I'm likely due for another 60-120 days of gametime with Pandaria.
 
Xenoblade isn't that great a comparison, mostly due to being a singleplayer game. Most of WoW's gameplay depth and challenge comes from group play. In many ways, WoW and its ilk are the epitome of coop play. Admittedly, I'd love more simulation in my core gameplay, though I'm skeptical of such a thing being feasible right now. Clever approximation of simulation gameplay is what I hope for in future iterations of the genre.
 
It took myself about a year on and off until I 'got it'. Thereafter, for a year or two, WoW was all the gaming I did and needed. I see where you're coming from though, you start out at the same place I end up at. However -  I begin my journey at  a place of great fondness for the world and its inhabitants, and a basic appreciation of its core gameplay mechanics. The raiding grind is what kills it for me. I can only take that much hard mode grinding before I'm through with an expansion.
 
My hopes for progress rest with Guild Wars 2, which seems to change little and big things in all the right places. Just a couple more days 'til I'll experience it for myself.

@theuselessgod said:

Wait, is that really what Xenoblade looks like? That's freaking gorgeous!

*runs off to buy a wii*

But seriously, great write-up. I didn't ever jump on the WoW train, but as someone who has played a lot of MMOs over the years I completely agree with your comments. The formula has aged, and I feel it needs an evolution.

thanks :)

and yes, it looks that pretty ... except it's not 720p like that image^^ (probably a screenshot from the dolphin emulator on PC). but overall, it really is a very pretty game (if you don't look at the faces^^)

WoW's only as good as the people you're playing it with. My suggestion is get better friends. Also don't talk about games aging and then posting pictures with your graphics set to less than best settings, though I know you aren't talking about that.

That being said, I've been playing the beta and I'm having a hell of a time with it. There's a lot of stuff that's been changed to make the classes feel more dynamic and if you can get past the whole "Ugh, I hate change" demographic of the game it's pretty awesome. This having to walk back to the NPC that gave you the quest though... In Cataclysm they started a system where some quests would progress on their own. You're sent out to gather some oil off of some sea life and find Alliance divers trying to stake a claim to part of a reef. You fuck them up, and you're given a new quest that basically says "Well, while I'm here I might as well slit some throats." That's much better story wise than having gold and random loot appear in your inventory. It pisses me off when WoW does it like that, and I feel like there's some serious flaws with that system from a story-telling point of view. If you're all about loot lust though, story won't matter and you'll be happy however you get your next level so you can equip that sweet purp.

@Seppli said:

Xenoblade isn't that great a comparison, mostly due to being a singleplayer game. Most of WoW's gameplay depth and challenge comes from group play. In many ways, WoW and its ilk are the epitome of coop play.

Agreed, though I didn't wanna compare the two games as a whole but simply the basic quest design and how they handle traversal and convenience. That little jab at the end is there just 'cause I had such a terrible time with WoW on Sunday :P

WoW as a solo experience is a terrible idea as you rightly point out, with friends or even eFriends it's always more fun. However, getting through all the "filler" content to get from dungeon to dungeon just doesn't seem worth it to me anymore. I'm really curious how Blizzard approaches Titan...

@Toxeia said:

WoW's only as good as the people you're playing it with. My suggestion is get better friends. Also don't talk about games aging and then posting pictures with your graphics set to less than best settings, though I know you aren't talking about that.

I was playing alone during that session. Just wanted to see what was up, not looking to find new people to play with and only one of friends still plays WoW (he sent me the rez scroll)

Also, those screens are from the Giant Bomb image database. I turned everything to max (and it still looked worse than I expected for some reason). But anyway, I don't talk about graphics in my post - I talk about gameplay (which it seems you got but then why mention it?).

@Toxeia said:

This having to walk back to the NPC that gave you the quest though... In Cataclysm they started a system where some quests would progress on their own. You're sent out to gather some oil off of some sea life and find Alliance divers trying to stake a claim to part of a reef. You fuck them up, and you're given a new quest that basically says "Well, while I'm here I might as well slit some throats."

That's sadly the exception to the rule and the basic quests seem to remain mostly the same though. But one can't expect them to change it too much by updating a 7(?) year old game. It's fundamentally outdated design that can't be patched away, unfortunately. Sitting through a scripted sequence in an MMO context probably wouldn't work either so finding a good solution that works for the game as an MMO is hard.

@Toxeia said:

That's much better story wise than having gold and random loot appear in your inventory. It pisses me off when WoW does it like that, and I feel like there's some serious flaws with that system from a story-telling point of view. If you're all about loot lust though, story won't matter and you'll be happy however you get your next level so you can equip that sweet purp.

Sure, it doesn't make sense for quest rewards to magically appear in your pocket but it's a video game with dragons and magic 'n shit. Making you go back and forth every time is what annoyed me. Come up with an excuse to have either the quest giver follow you or send some sort of carrier stand-in with you so it doesn't break the illusion by having you "hand off" the procured items. Something like that would do it.

If you're still having fun with the game then that's great but I just can't do it anymore. That whole underwater area pretty much killed it for me. I might log back in before my free time runs out to fly over the Alliance territory once and check out the changes but that's probably gonna be it.

I think wow has aged just fine. Of course any person who has spent an extended amount of time with it and goes back will still be bored, but as far as a new player coming in and trying it for the first time, I think it is just as exciting and fun or even more so than it was 2004.

While I think a lot of your criticisms are valid, I'm going to play WoW apologist here for a bit and try to explain why I think the game deserves more credit than you're giving it. First, the movement speed issue. In lots of games it takes ages to get from point A to point B in order to pad out the game and make it feel bigger than it really is. In WoW, it takes so long because the world is big as fuck. If you could traverse Kalimdor in an instant, the game wouldn't feel very epic. Besides, if you are in a hurry there are flight paths, zepplins, boats, summoning spells, and mage portals for a reason.  
 
Second, you chose the absolute worst zone in the -entire- game to quest in. Now, I know that's no excuse and there's no way you could have possibly known, but it's really unfortunate that you had to experience the crap that is Vashj'r, especially when the other level 80 zone, Mount Hyjal, is one of the better ones in the game. It does get a little bit better soon after the point you left at, mostly due to getting your own seahorse mount that travels at like 500% speed. Regardless, it's a damn shame that there's still zones like that.

There actually are a fair amount of quests that have automatic turn-in/progression, but Blizzard still loves the idea of the quest hub, mostly for story progression via phased worldstates or scripted events, but also as a place where players can trade, talk, group, find vendors, ect. I wish that stuff was more dynamic, but it's unfortunately not the case. Something to consider is that a lot of my better inter-player interactions have been with random dudes at questhubs, though. 

Lastly, the combat. I still think the combat in WoW is among the best in MMOs, even seven years after release. It boils down to Blizzard's philosophy of  making the game accessible to anyone. If you're questing or doing normal dungeons you can be successful as long as you are aware enough to mash buttons. When it comes to heroic dungeons/normal raids, a fair degree of skill and are needed to be able to progress. Now, in heroic mode raids/PVP, which I consider to be 'pure' WoW, if you fuck up once, it's over. All of your timings, positioning, and reactions have to be pretty damn near perfect or else you wipe and let the rest of your raid group down. That's the appeal of the combat to me. You get what you're willing to put into it. The appeal of questing isn't meant to be the combat, it's the story beats and exploring the huge world.

Oh, and the game is nearly eight years old. Of course an old-ass MMO isn't going to be as polished as a  singleplayer game made in 2012.

@Robot_Moses: Good points, I feel though, that they should maybe give high level players the option to at least quickly travel from all the major cities to the other without cooldowns. Not everywhere, that would diminish the hugeness of the world as you said, but one town in each zone. Flying takes a while as well and you can't jump off mid flight (they should let you do that once you've flown a route once in both directions at least, or have an alternative that gets you out of those long flights if you made a mistake or just wanna get off)

Well, probably most of my complaints come from having no urge to dive deep into that world again, thus making everything that makes it take longer a pain.

Like I said, I remember not having a problem really with any of that when I first played it.

Sidenote: Xenoblade is a 2010 game (original Japan release), so it's pretty old now as well :) ... but I get your point. It wasn't meant to be a direct game<>game comparison anyway. Though one might possibly argue that all the expansions and updates, WoW not really an 8 year old game anymore ... but I don't wanna go there.^^

I played through all the Catalysm content a few months ago and thought it was great. I don't see why WoW is being compared to Xenoblade.

Uh your problem number one is you need to learn to do something insane like... look at the map? Crazy complex stuff there I know. Number 2, you decided to fly around to a bunch of retarded random places you didn't actually need to visit and then complained that it was boring killing all the mobs you massively out leveled and travelling there was not fun. Uh grow up? You went out of your way to do something you blatantly didn't need to do, why did you think it was going to be exciting, fast, and dangerous? You also had a horrible run back because you didn't bother landing before you one shot the annoying guy on the mountain, try that next time. Meanwhile WoW is not a single player game, comparing it to one is such a waste of time it isn't even worth responding to.

Despite the fact that all your complaints are basically your own fault and or totally illegitimate.... yes you are right! WoW has aged badly and is incredibly boring. However it is retarded easy mode and way too convenient. For example, I can go from the only area I raid, to the daily quest areas, to the central cities with all the "stuff" you need, and back to the only area I raid in less than ..... 5-6 minutes.... maybe. You call that inconvenient?

Oh an PS: There is no damn reason to travel to the "other major cities". Everything is either in Stormwind, Orgrimmar, or in the case of a Dragon Soul port Dalaran, which conveniently has ports to Orgrammar and Stormwind to. In other words you hearth in Dalaran and port to wherever you need to be and then you are done. There is no reason to ever visit any other cities in the game outside of the leveling process, which at 80 revolves around Orgrimmar and Stormwind...

@Milkman said:

I played through all the Catalysm content a few months ago and thought it was great. I don't see why WoW is being compared to Xenoblade.

it's not. I've now said this multiple times in the comments. I compared certain elements from both games since they were used in different ways and I've played both recently. This is not game A vs game B!

@Karkarov said:

Uh your problem number one is you need to learn to do something insane like... look at the map? Crazy complex stuff there I know. Number 2, you decided to fly around to a bunch of retarded random places you didn't actually need to visit and then complained that it was boring killing all the mobs you massively out leveled and travelling there was not fun. Uh grow up? You went out of your way to do something you blatantly didn't need to do, why did you think it was going to be exciting, fast, and dangerous? You also had a horrible run back because you didn't bother landing before you one shot the annoying guy on the mountain, try that next time. Meanwhile WoW is not a single player game, comparing it to one is such a waste of time it isn't even worth responding to.

Despite the fact that all your complaints are basically your own fault and or totally illegitimate.... yes you are right! WoW has aged badly and is incredibly boring. However it is retarded easy mode and way too convenient. For example, I can go from the only area I raid, to the daily quest areas, to the central cities with all the "stuff" you need, and back to the only area I raid in less than ..... 5-6 minutes.... maybe. You call that inconvenient?

Oh an PS: There is no damn reason to travel to the "other major cities". Everything is either in Stormwind, Orgrimmar, or in the case of a Dragon Soul port Dalaran, which conveniently has ports to Orgrammar and Stormwind to. In other words you hearth in Dalaran and port to wherever you need to be and then you are done. There is no reason to ever visit any other cities in the game outside of the leveling process, which at 80 revolves around Orgrimmar and Stormwind...

Your No. 1 problem is your attitude. It's clear that you've merely glazed over the text since you're trying to put words in my mouth and don't seem to understand at all what I was trying to say.

One thing though, If I wanna play with a friend who has a lower level character and happens to have business in other areas, it's VERY useful to be able to travel to other cities. Just saying...

Now please check your attitude at the door next time you wanna tell me to grow up for no reason.

Wow awesome another MMO's are boring and outdated thread. I think we get it you don't like WoW, good for you.

@BongChilla said:

Wow awesome another MMO's are boring and outdated thread. I think we get it you don't like WoW, good for you.

nobody forces you to read it, it even has a disclaimer upfront.

weird how the posts get more and more negative as the day goes on...

That's MMO for you.
 
And despite all the obvious flaws the entire genre has, its still amazingly good fun to sometimes do.
I prefer to spend my time in Lord of the Rings Online, reading quest text over Skyrim actually, but that's a matter of opinion.

@DeF Well, something that might be up is... you went to Vashj'ir. The one thing that's always been aggravating in WoW is traversing through fluid. An entire questing zone dedicated to it was questionable. Try going to Hyjal instead.

I'll also cop to having some degree of interest in Warcraft lore.

And the jazz about the pictures was just how it comes off when you title your post "..did this age that badly" and the first thing that jumps out at me is a low-res picture. Wasn't calling you out on anything, just saying it's misleading for the people that probably won't read this but just jump to the conclusion that you're bashing on a game that's crushed numerous attempts to getting into the MMO space since... What, 2004? I bet there's a game database I could go to check that out.

@Milkman said:

I played through all the Catalysm content a few months ago and thought it was great. I don't see why WoW is being compared to Xenoblade.

It's being compared to Xenoblade because 1) he played it recently so it's in his mind 2) it's a take on MMO systems in a single player game.

@DeF said:

Your No. 1 problem is your attitude. It's clear that you've merely glazed over the text since you're trying to put words in my mouth and don't seem to understand at all what I was trying to say.

One thing though, If I wanna play with a friend who has a lower level character and happens to have business in other areas, it's VERY useful to be able to travel to other cities. Just saying...

Now please check your attitude at the door next time you wanna tell me to grow up for no reason.

Or you start a new character and level with your friend which is actually alot more fun for both of you. Also the game gives you every pre 80 flight path and a mount that can actually fly as fast or faster from point to point for free. You remember vanilla/bc wow incorrectly. I can fly from the northernmost point of Kalimdor to it's southernmost point faster in cataclysm on my own mount than I could take a wyvern from ogrimmar to tanaris in burning crusade.

The biggest mistake you made when I think about it (other than accepting the scroll in the first place) was starting at 80. When you leave any mmo for years regardless of how much it has changed the best way to learn the game and find out if you like it / how you want to play it is always just to start fresh.

If you didn't raid in WoW, you didn't really play WoW.

WoW's leveling is pretty dull unless you are really into the lore and really the whole process of leveling is just a tutorial for the actual game once you hit level cap.

That said, I'm two years off of WoW and couldn't be happier and doubt I'll ever play a MMO like that again.

@Toxeia said:

@DeF Well, something that might be up is... you went to Vashj'ir. The one thing that's always been aggravating in WoW is traversing through fluid. An entire questing zone dedicated to it was questionable. Try going to Hyjal instead.

Yea someone else pointed that out about Vashj'ir. That's just where the ! lead me. Is Hyjal a direct alternative to that area? Do they even do stuff that's horde/alliance exclusive anymore? How do I get there? But you're definitely right. I remember questing near the beach in Stranglethorn many years ago when you had to do some underwater stuff there. It was horrible (especially without a warlock to give you that infinite air thingy)

What's funny is that I actually think that underwater pic is quite pretty lol. I didn't wanna start off with a wall of text so i put that there after posting the blog.

@Robot_Moses: They had that? Okay, I'll give them credit for trying it. I get how the design philosophy for fast travel is different in an MMO compared to single player RPGs and yet I still wouldn't mind it if they made the non-interactive travel optionally faster. Say you're flying from Ironforge to Booty Bay for some reason, start it off with regular flying and once I'm in the air, give me a "skip" prompt. Sometimes you just wanna get somewhere quick (you wanna help a lower level buddy with something, for example) and other times you don't mind flying around for 5-10 minutes because you can check emails, go to the bathroom or grab a drink.

The specific part during my session that bugged me was when I tamed the seahorse and discovered the underwater "flight" path and tried to take a shortcut to the next quest without realizing the map was actually much bigger and the destination I chose was actually terribly far away and I had to sit through the whole journey twice to get back. That's where all that came from.

@TaliciaDragonsong said:

That's MMO for you. And despite all the obvious flaws the entire genre has, its still amazingly good fun to sometimes do. I prefer to spend my time in Lord of the Rings Online, reading quest text over Skyrim actually, but that's a matter of opinion.

How are they handling quest texts in LotRO? Anything significantly different? Or are you just more interested in the lore?

I realize, though, that most of my issues with my Sunday Afternoon WoW Endeavor come from playing alone and had I played with at least one other person, it would've probably gone by quicker and not have been that boring. (Although swimming still would've sucked^^)

@Karkarov said:

@DeF said:

Your No. 1 problem is your attitude. It's clear that you've merely glazed over the text since you're trying to put words in my mouth and don't seem to understand at all what I was trying to say.

One thing though, If I wanna play with a friend who has a lower level character and happens to have business in other areas, it's VERY useful to be able to travel to other cities. Just saying...

Now please check your attitude at the door next time you wanna tell me to grow up for no reason.

Or you start a new character and level with your friend which is actually alot more fun for both of you. Also the game gives you every pre 80 flight path and a mount that can actually fly as fast or faster from point to point for free. You remember vanilla/bc wow incorrectly. I can fly from the northernmost point of Kalimdor to it's southernmost point faster in cataclysm on my own mount than I could take a wyvern from ogrimmar to tanaris in burning crusade.

The biggest mistake you made when I think about it (other than accepting the scroll in the first place) was starting at 80. When you leave any mmo for years regardless of how much it has changed the best way to learn the game and find out if you like it / how you want to play it is always just to start fresh.

I can see that being a better experience (based around the "play with friends" principle) though I have no interest in a) paying for it again and b) spending lots of time on the game (I can barely keep up with regular games as it is). My friend, who's the only one from the old days still playing, probably has no desire to start up a new dude again either.

Again, my post comes from needing to vent after a terribly dull/frustrating experience. Some of those design foundations just need to evolve in the next big MMO, though I believe it will take a long time till we get something that draws in the masses like WoW did while doing something truly innovative for the genre. I don't think SWTOR is it (haven't played it though).

As I said, I'm looking forward to what this year's MMO line up will bring to the table, idea wise.

What drove you to write this? To prop up one game by shitting on another? Why not just praise Xenoblade? You list all of these petty complaints then get surprised when people are touchy. People have spent hundreds of hours in this game, it's close to their heart. It's clear you don't like the game, leave it at that, making a giant post basically saying "Your game sucks, mine is better." is about the most juvenile thing you can do.

I can understand where your coming from though personally I love WoW. If your willing to read the quest text, most people arent, you find a great story in a lot of places and as the game has progressed they have put more and more of the story in the world and characters. I hadent played in a while and decided while waiting for a friend to rerun the undead starting zone.

Though there were definately a few dark patches I found it great fun learning about the undead society, helping Darnell earn some respect and mostly following the story of Lillian Voss and Marshall Redpath. I remember seeing Marshall Redpath in Southshore (I believe) years ago and now I see him again ressurected as an undead, shortly there after I was tasked with stopping his rebellion since he had tried to build a fighting force of other unwilling-undead in the valley near the town. Lillian Voss' story is even better, she is the daughter of one of the leaders of the Scarlet Crusade who despise all undead and hunt them out so after she runs off in the beginning you see her again in a cage after being captured by the scarlet crusade. The person who is guarding her is evidently an old friend and she pleads with him, he announces her father denounces her as his daughter and orders her death whereupon she goes crazy and transitions through the cage, kills him and escapes. Later in the zone you can see her "finger print" in the purple fire left on bodies of Scarlet Crusade members, you follow her into the forest and she asks for your help to kll her father.

This isnt information I was told later, or read on a wiki page, but a story I saw unfold in front of me in the game. Its sad that in amongst those fantastic quests you get a man who says "Those spiders are annoying, can you please kill them?" but for the amazing stories I would call it worth it.

I love WoW, and MMO's in general, because when done right it makes me feel more attached to the story, the world and the people around me. So much so that I was sold on Pandaria because I saw Lillian Voss in Scholmance, though honestly I love Panda's and Pokemon, because I wanted to see how that character develops. I want to see how the troll faction, and specifically its leader, deals with Garrosh Hellscream because I know from the Troll starting zone that he distrusts him and fears for his people when Garrosh commits to a full scale war. You see Vol'Jin, the Troll Leader, and Garrosh argue over this in the starting zone and Vol'Jin describes in great detail how he will kill Garrosh. He only stays with the horde because is his trust of Thrall, the last Warcheif. Its sad that most people will read the quest text "Report to Vol'jin" and then click on him, take the next quest and leave because that quests exists so you can see the exchange which happens directly behind him during that quest.

Though really the greatest enjoyment in that game isnt in the quests, though there are some great highlights, its in the co-operative dungeons. Its true you can break it down to "Press 1, 2 then 3" but you can do that for anything the question is just how does it make you feel? For me, especially tanking, it makes me feel great. I know that I am a second away from loosing all aggro and killing everyone, its up to me to play at my best to hold this entire thing together and Ive placed my trust in the healer (usually a friend) to keep me alive. Its co-operative gaming and I love it. Its the reason I could spent multiple hours mining before my friends woke up, there a lazy bunch and I was usually watching TV at the same time, just for the pleasure of hanging them gear that eclipsed there older gear and made there damage go up.

EDIT: From what I have seen WoW, and Blizzard, have some of the best lore writing in the gaming business so I have high hopes for "Titan" the next Blizzard MMO. If they can evolve the MMO genre, as they did in 2004, and then combine it with there great lore then it would be one of the best games ever made. The basic quest structure needs to evolve and, personally, the hunt for strong and stronger gear needs to evolve. Im excited by Guild Wars 2's (and apparently Guild Wars 1's) idea that you can grind for cooler gear but you can buy the strongest gear from the shop. I just want to play with my friends, I dont want to work for it or feel like Im falling behind.

@DeF I've only ever played Horde, think you mentioned you play Alliance, so... Horde side we've got billboards that lead us to new quest zones. I'm sure you've got something on your end that's very similar. Start from there. The quest should basically tell you to talk to a druid who will port you to Moonglade, where you'll ride yourself a dragon into Hyjal. Hilarity ensues.

@TaliciaDragonsong said:

@DeF: Its textbook really, someone tells you what to do and you do it. But I love the stories in it, I will never forget the Misty Mountain quest where I helped a poisoned Dwarf avenge his brother and help him set up his business again (as a huntsman). The way the text was handled was great, even the supplies guy in the room was woven into the story. Basically, the lore and quests are great but the gameplay is very textbook MMO. Still, great enviroments, characters and the Epic Story questlines are enough to still have me playing for 5 years now.

Sounds like there's more to it than a window popping up that has the text blurb and then the completion requirements with the rewards below, though. If it involves other NPCs that sounds immediately more interesting. I only ever read the quest text in WoW when I couldn't figure out where to go to see if that helped because the relevant information was usually at the bottom (kill X pink murlocs and collect Y gnarly toenails from the smelly ones), eliminating the need to read the actual quest text (speeding up the process but also removing incentive to get involved in the actual narrative).

What you describe about LotRO sounds pretty cool. reminds me more of the sidequests in Xenoblade again [still, just because that's the game I've been playing for weeks now and it's fresh on my mind -- just so nobody gets wild on me again^^] where some sidequests actually made me feel like I affected the NPC's life - for example, there was a love triangle and you basically had to choose between advising a girl to get her wish to be with a dude she has the hots for but YOU know he's gonna leave her later and a dude who truly loves her but YOU know she's gonna get bored with him eventually. I loved that and actually sat there, asking friends what they'd do.

Can't remember a single WoW questline though, never felt like reading the quest text for some reason. I don't even think voice is the way to go (like Old Rep does it).

You actually got me interested in checking out LotRO now .... that's F2P, right?

@Bwast said:

What drove you to write this? (a) To prop up one game by shitting on another? (b) Why not just praise Xenoblade? (c) You list all of these petty complaints then get surprised when people are touchy. People have spent hundreds of hours in this game, it's close to their heart. It's clear you don't like the game, leave it at that, making a giant post basically saying "Your game sucks, mine is better." is about the most juvenile thing you can do. (d)

(a) answered in the comments before yours.

(b) no

(c) because the original post isn't about Xenoblade (I even added a disclaimer ...), it's about how jumped back into WoW and had a terrible time

(d) good thing that's not what I'm doing then.

@DeF said:

Yea someone else pointed that out about Vashj'ir. That's just where the ! lead me. Is Hyjal a direct alternative to that area? Do they even do stuff that's horde/alliance exclusive anymore? How do I get there? But you're definitely right. I remember questing near the beach in Stranglethorn many years ago when you had to do some underwater stuff there. It was horrible (especially without a warlock to give you that infinite air thingy)

@DeF: For leveling 80-82 your zone choices are Hyjal and Vashj'ir. Both should show up as quests on the Warchief's command boards in Orgimmar. All characters 80-85 have the same five zones to quest in regardless of faction: Vashj'r, Hyjal, Deepholm, Uldum, and the Twilight Highlands. The quests are the same for the Alliance and Horde in Hyjal, Deepholm, and Uldum, as those zones focus more on the stories of secondary factions and neutral characters like Malfurion Stormrage. In Vashj'ir and the Twilight Highlands, the two factions are opposed and have separate questlines.

As annoying and long as flightpaths are, keep in mind that they are meant to instill in the player a sense of wonder at the size of the world. Of course, that feeling gets old really fast, which is why teleportation items/portals/faster mounts are highly sought after. The desire to never have to travel anywhere actually creates a nice player economy and common interest.

@Pazy: That sounds really cool. I wish they presented the narrative parts better though. Whenever I was questing with a group in the old days, people always seem to have played multiple chars already so everyone was just running forward and it was usually very rushed (even or especially in dungeons where most just came for the loot and the rest were their higher lvl friends dragging us through).

I feel if they just tweaked these quest delivery a bit (make it speech bubbles with YOUR character being involved in the conversation - even if it's just simple responses or questions - and don't show the "kill X of Y" until the end), people like me would be more inclined to read the story bits instead of skipping to the objective lists. It seems they put a lot of work in there but don't know how to get more people to look at it.

@Toxeia said:

@DeF I've only ever played Horde, think you mentioned you play Alliance, so... Horde side we've got billboards that lead us to new quest zones. I'm sure you've got something on your end that's very similar. Start from there. The quest should basically tell you to talk to a druid who will port you to Moonglade, where you'll ride yourself a dragon into Hyjal. Hilarity ensues.

No I'm actually playing Horde as well with my rezzed character. I thought the billboards in Orgrimmar lead to the PvP battlegrounds for some reason. I'll try to find that Druid then to check out Hyjal at least before the free game time runs out.

@DeF said:

@Pazy: That sounds really cool. I wish they presented the narrative parts better though. Whenever I was questing with a group in the old days, people always seem to have played multiple chars already so everyone was just running forward and it was usually very rushed (even or especially in dungeons where most just came for the loot and the rest were their higher lvl friends dragging us through).

I feel if they just tweaked these quest delivery a bit (make it speech bubbles with YOUR character being involved in the conversation - even if it's just simple responses or questions - and don't show the "kill X of Y" until the end), people like me would be more inclined to read the story bits instead of skipping to the objective lists. It seems they put a lot of work in there but don't know how to get more people to look at it.

I always ended up questing alone for that reason. My friends, and it seems most people, have been trained to only accept story in games in form of cutscenes. Though im looking forward to SWTOR, im waiting for some friends to have some free time, but honestly the idea of cutscenes being so prevelant in an MMO does more to harm the positives of the genre than really help it I think. The general quest's need improved but the idea that a cutscene happens to signifiy importance is one I appreciate. When I levelled my undead character last week I got a cutscene to level up the world and 10levels later (though quite quick because I was in a starting zone) I got a cutscene when the Banshee Queen (leader of the undead faction) took me on a horse ride to explain about her story with regard to the Lich King and the creation of the Forsaken (the playable undead faction). It really put a strong underline under this peice of story to tell me it was a very important thing.

Potentially Guild Wars 2 has a good answer to the idea of better quests though. From what I have seen, Ive been watching Beta videos but im not in it, you get a quest from town where a guy wants you to kill enough wolves to stop them harressing the town (Kill X Wolves) but once you finish that you dont just go back to town, the wolfmother will turn up to see what happened to her children and start posing and then you have to kill her. Both because the new quest now says so and because a giant growling wolf is running towards you. If they can continue that idea, where the quests come naturally in the world, then id be a lot more excited for the genre as a whole.

They also added cutscenes to the start of all dungeons to frame them and tell you why you are doing what you are doing. WoW has this information but its contained in the zone around the dungeon, which can be great, but generally you have a choice of 2+ zones but what if this dungeon is in another zone, you levelled to fast or its a horde only zone? You simple miss out on the story and hope to read about it later, which isnt as personal, or hope to see it next time you level a character (if you do).

Again, I love WoW. However if the MMO genre wishes to continue it needs some serious rethinking to highlight its strong points and not simply copy ideas of other genres (like a thousand cutscenes everywhere).

Though if you have a short time left and wish to see some story. Id suggest trying one of the starting zones. They only take a few hours, in an MMO thats fast, but they seem to have the great concentration of Story quests vs. Time fillers. Im personally a great fan of the Undead starting zone but the Worgen zone provides a great story. It emplys heavy use of phasing to quickly advance time and has almost no time filler quests till the very end. The first thing you see is a general human town and you get a quest to go check something, though if you look above you there are shadows on the roof's that are very...Werewolf'y, you go about 5 foot around a corner and come back to see the town being assaulted by werewolves. What follows is a great story where you watch a town crumble as they try and put up little defenses that do nothing. If you have time really try it, you sadly have to suffer early RPG gameplay (few attacks and no difficulty) but its presents a great story and is a great sampler of what you can find later in the game if you are willing to be patient.

@TaliciaDragonsong said:

@DeF: Its textbook really, someone tells you what to do and you do it. But I love the stories in it, I will never forget the Misty Mountain quest where I helped a poisoned Dwarf avenge his brother and help him set up his business again (as a huntsman). The way the text was handled was great, even the supplies guy in the room was woven into the story. Basically, the lore and quests are great but the gameplay is very textbook MMO. Still, great enviroments, characters and the Epic Story questlines are enough to still have me playing for 5 years now.

Sounds like there's more to it than a window popping up that has the text blurb and then the completion requirements with the rewards below, though. If it involves other NPCs that sounds immediately more interesting. I only ever read the quest text in WoW when I couldn't figure out where to go to see if that helped because the relevant information was usually at the bottom (kill X pink murlocs and collect Y gnarly toenails from the smelly ones), eliminating the need to read the actual quest text (speeding up the process but also removing incentive to get involved in the actual narrative).

What you describe about LotRO sounds pretty cool. reminds me more of the sidequests in Xenoblade again [still, just because that's the game I've been playing for weeks now and it's fresh on my mind -- just so nobody gets wild on me again^^] where some sidequests actually made me feel like I affected the NPC's life - for example, there was a love triangle and you basically had to choose between advising a girl to get her wish to be with a dude she has the hots for but YOU know he's gonna leave her later and a dude who truly loves her but YOU know she's gonna get bored with him eventually. I loved that and actually sat there, asking friends what they'd do.

Can't remember a single WoW questline though, never felt like reading the quest text for some reason. I don't even think voice is the way to go (like Old Rep does it).

You actually got me interested in checking out LotRO now .... that's F2P, right?

@DeF said:

@Bwast said:

What drove you to write this? (a) To prop up one game by shitting on another? (b) Why not just praise Xenoblade? (c) You list all of these petty complaints then get surprised when people are touchy. People have spent hundreds of hours in this game, it's close to their heart. It's clear you don't like the game, leave it at that, making a giant post basically saying "Your game sucks, mine is better." is about the most juvenile thing you can do. (d)

(d) good thing that's not what I'm doing then.

"Back to better games." "Better game is better." "WoW is (or at least has become) a terrible game."

It seems unlikely but if you do go back into WoW a little more while you free time is up perhaps you could post again? I fail to do it myself but when you have a complain and someone provides "answers" it always interesting to see if it suceeds. For example, being given examples of great story, specifically show in a great way, how did those come across in game to you?

This is more a personal wish lol but it would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on the Gilneas starting zone as someone who normally skips quest text and hasent seen story in the rest of the game. I would like to also give examples for your current level but I dont remember it as clearly, I did some starting zones more recently that the later content, but normally its also more spread out due to being an MMO. Hopefully someone else can suggest some great story based content in the 80-85 zones.

@TaliciaDragonsong:

I think I'll at least check it out then, thanks :)

@Pazy said:

It seems unlikely but if you do go back into WoW a little more while you free time is up perhaps you could post again? I fail to do it myself but when you have a complain and someone provides "answers" it always interesting to see if it suceeds. For example, being given examples of great story, specifically show in a great way, how did those come across in game to you?

This is more a personal wish lol but it would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on the Gilneas starting zone as someone who normally skips quest text and hasent seen story in the rest of the game. I would like to also give examples for your current level but I dont remember it as clearly, I did some starting zones more recently that the later content, but normally its also more spread out due to being an MMO. Hopefully someone else can suggest some great story based content in the 80-85 zones.

I'll jump back in today or tomorrow for a few hours, maybe start up a new character in one of the new races to see if I find that more appealing. Short update blog will follow soon after :)

@Pazy: So it seems I didn't get around to it in time. Just couldn't get myself to play it during the week. Maybe next time when Blizzard hands out free time. Sorry for not keeping my promise, duder :(

@DeF said:

@Pazy: So it seems I didn't get around to it in time. Just couldn't get myself to play it during the week. Maybe next time when Blizzard hands out free time. Sorry for not keeping my promise, duder :(

Thats alright, its a pretty good indicator of your enjoyment in itself. Sadly MMO's, and specifiically in this case WoW, arent for everyone.

I've never played WoW but I watched the sequence you were talking about on the Quicklook I think Dave and Vinny did and I thought it looked rather boring myself. MMO combat is all about tactics and timing. It's not especially visceral which is what I always found boring about it. I like direct control of my characters during combat but that isn't how MMO's work. I am interested in some of the newer MMO's in the works. There seems to be a bit of evolution going on. I think in the end Blizzard will come up with something pretty crazy for their next MMO.

And just in general, not many 8 year old games hold up that well. Half Life 2 still is pretty fun, but looking back on most games from 2004 I wouldn't say there are many that I could play today and fully enjoy. Even Half Life 2, which I consider the greatest game of all time, has some flaws which I didn't even think about at the time. Games are still a very young medium and they are changing rapidly. Even games from early this generation don't hold up as well as you might expect. That WoW is still fun to so many people is proof that at least at one point it was a game of immense quality.