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fatalbanana

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No matter what I hear about RDR2 I just can't get excited about it. ...It looks expensive?

Maybe I'm being unfair and holding the standards of current Rockstar games against this new one but if it has the same problems as every other "new era" Rockstar game I will be less than interested. I say this all to also say that I will probably end up getting it anyway somewhere down the road and I'll probably enjoy the first bit of it and not want to play it again. I just don't need another overstuffed, horribly paced, overly long, expensive open world game with serviceable gameplay.

I don't mean to be such a downer and I don't hate Rockstar games but from what I've seen of RD they have a lot of cool features in there but will it address everything I find wrong with their usual game design? Hope so but we'll see I guess. If it does it will be something special for sure.

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fatalbanana

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Breath of The Wild was the last game to really hit me emotionally solely by everything it did aesthetically. I'm still wowed by how that game represents nature and no other game really nails that feeling of being in a place better than that game for me.

Witcher 3 had contained moments of that so I would put that as a close second where as Zeldas hit me right off the bat.

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fatalbanana

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I fell off of Hyper Light after about 6 or so hours but I don't regret playing it. It has such a great style and story presentation but as others have said I don't think the gameplay totally holds up its end of the bargain.

The gameplay is more than serviceable but I found it frustrating more than a fun challenge. With that said you should definitely at least check it out, it's a neat thing even if all of it doesn't come together fully.

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fatalbanana

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#4  Edited By fatalbanana

@john1912:

"Well, you are taking the extreme proposition in that what you consider wrong is what is right for everyone."

I'm not talking about what is wrong and right at all.

"You also are fixated on how men and women are presented in media"

Yeah, this is what this discussion is.

"As I said men and women have different roles, or mostly polar roles in sexuality, and how we appeal to one another."

Agreed, my point is men are catered to more than women in video games. Men's want to be sexually stimulated is well met elsewhere, do we need it all over video games?

More spaces where more groups of people can play a wider range of things without feeling alienated by the kind of stimulation men like sounds like a good thing for video games to me.

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fatalbanana

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@acharlie1377: Totally, I was speaking more broadly and specifically about visual sexualization because it's an easier point to argue. I agree with you though, this is a larger topic than how women are visually depicted. It's a good point, we should be talking about how they are written too.

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#6  Edited By fatalbanana

@sweetz said:

@fatalbanana: You're right, I've gone too far to suggest that media can't influence society to some extent - that's not a tenable position. I guess I'm just not convinced in this specific case. Growing up watching episodes of Baywatch as a horny teenager didn't cause me to believe women couldn't be the intellectual equal of men as an adult - it didn't cause me to believe it even as a teenager. I don't know that sexual pandering implicitly leads to devaluing. It's also worth noting that not every piece of games media depicts women as sexy and the media in question here is especially fantastical with only the most tenuous connection to reality. Is there really not room for ANY pandering titillation in games?

I don't mean to say there is no room for it, I have no issue with porn games or H manga etc. I have no problem with women being pleasing to look at in some of there depictions. The question I want to ask is why is that the main go-to option for their depiction? Can we do better for all involved and not just cater to a mans want to be stimulated?

The point to me isn't simply from a man's perspective of sexual depictions of women being devaluing to them but how woman feel devalued by sexual depictions of themselves. If you asked me the scales are tipped way more in favor how men want to depict women rather than how women want to depict themselves. Why shouldn't we take both into account and at least try to even the playing field? How we get there is an open question and that's the conversation I want to have. If we are overcorrecting and getting rid of all pandering titillation I would have a problem with that but I don't think we are even close to that happening.

I want video games to cater to more groups then what is already being pandered to and if that means arguing about depictions in an anime RPG maybe that's an argument worth having is all I'm saying. That doesn't mean who's already being pandered to will stop but maybe games can be made for more than pandering.

I don't need or want to be pandered to. That's my personal opinion and I don't hold everyone to that standard but if being pandered to in that way is important to certain people their needs are well met elsewhere and the people that aren't being pandered to can enjoy a wider range of things and not feel sectioned out of certain areas that are made specifically for the pandered (if that makes sense). Okay, I'm done babbling you get my point.

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fatalbanana

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#7  Edited By fatalbanana

@john1912 said:

@fatalbanana: "So if women are constantly depicted as sexy"

I know Im picking a off hand quote. But this is a issue for men as well. Men and woman have different roles in sexuality, which results in men being less depicted naked, or in tight clothing. Its just a fact of life that people want to look at beautiful people. You are trying to change a unconscious response. Its wired in. Can we do it less, or better? Of course, but there will always be a part of society that wants it. Its freedom of expression.

Agreed, but that isn't really the point. Should everything be made from a sense of what we find sexy? Sure certain things feel good to look at but what is that telling us about the type of media we consume? I like porn as much as anyone else but I don't need everything to be porn or have aspects of porn in it. And if we agree that porn can color the thing we are watching or even how we interact outside of watching it I would say its ok if we had less of it.

I love hot sauce but I don't want it in my ice cream. By that same token If I'm only familiar with hot sauce in ice cream that would probably color my outlook on ice cream altogether and what its use is outside of simply consuming it because it's there and I seperatley like both things.

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#8  Edited By fatalbanana

@sweetz said:
@fatalbanana said:

Boiling this all down to boys will be boys is missing the forest for the trees. To claim society has absolutely no impact on how we treat each other (especially without citing evidence) is just ignoring how we operate as people.

How is that missing the forest of the trees? Do you believe that removing pandering titillation from video games is going to alter millennia of human behavior or fix problems that existed long before the advent of electronic media? Society certainly impacts how we treat each other, but media reflects society more than it shapes it. Society is shaped by people, not media.

I believe that a person's behavior towards others is overwhelmingly determined by genetics and their real life interactions with those other people during developmental periods of their life, not the media they consume. I have no proof to cite, just decades of people watching and self-reflection.

I mean, let me ask you this, do you believe that pandering titillation in media has meaningfully impacted your attitude towards women? If not, why do you believe you are better or different than the rest of us?

Yes, society is shaped by people, people make media, people consume media, media shapes society. If the media has no effect on society why do we have educational media? How would media educate if it doesn't affect the people watching it? If large groups of people have the ability to be educated from media wouldn't that affect society and medias role in it?

To answer your last question yes, media has impacted how I interact not only with women but specifically certain depictions of women. That isn't to say all behavior directly comes from media but it informs it. Of course, biology matters and is a humongous part of who we are and how we behave to say otherwise would be absurd. However, let me give you an example, for instance, we used to publically execute people. Large crowds would form in the middle of the town square to watch another person get killed and sometimes brutally tortured. It wasn't only acceptable it was willingly cheered on. Imagine that today... That tells you that somewhere along the line standards have changed. Humans aren't biologically wired to find real violence repulsive, we disassociate, so what informs us today that tells us we should find it (certain kinds of violence) repulsive other than what we see and what we consume and what we learn?

If media is able to inform us and it is our main source of consumption how can that not alter how we see and interact with every aspect of functional society? If people of color are constantly depicted as violent criminals, not only in the news but in fiction do you think society wouldn't follow? American history would beg to differ and is a clear example of my point. (just to clarify I'm not saying media is to blame for the US's racist history I'm saying it contributed) This isn't to say media is the end all be all but it's a large factor. So if women are constantly depicted as sexy what effect does that have on its audience? It is not out of the question to say maybe this isn't the right way to do things.

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@sweetz said:
@acharlie1377 said:

None of this is explicitly saying "women are objects," but it normalizes the idea that a woman's physical attractiveness matters more than anything else, or that women are inherently inferior in some way.

Eh, that is far from established fact and is a peer to "video games cause violence" claims. In my opinion, that would only apply to people who can't separate fantasy from reality and if you're using anime/JRPGs to inform your real life behavior, you've got bigger problems.

Also, men throughout history have never needed the influence of media or video games to objectify women...just testosterone and an instinctual reproductive drive.

It's established fact that media is extremely important in shaping society and it has major cultural influence over the people that consume it. Saying media has no impact on societies outlook on violence is absurd and is easily provable. However, that is not the same thing as saying violent media causes violence which has been proven in many studies not to be the case. The same thing can be said about representations of women. It may not cause actual crimes to take place but it does inform how women are perceived, not only in other forms of media but society at large. More to the point separating fantasy from reality is not the same thing as inheriting normalized behavior through cultural influences.

Boiling this all down to boys will be boys is missing the forest for the trees. To claim society has absolutely no impact on how we treat each other (especially without citing evidence) is just ignoring how we operate as people.

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@soulcake: I mean I'm more in it for the commentary then I am the movie so I'm in the camp that enjoys F&F no matter what more often than not. I've listened to these guys for damn near 10 years and I know their rapport. The fact that they sometimes can't stay on topic or they sometimes go off the rails is a feature, not a bug as far as I'm concerned. I know what I'm signing up for with a movie commentary with them and if I'm watching a movie and want to follow it and get absorbed in it I wouldn't do it with the commentary in the first place.

I get your criticism but in my opinion, knowing how these dudes operate it seems silly for me to sign up for this and then complain that they aren't staying on track the whole time. That's kind of the selling point at least for me. I would rather them be themselves then force something dryer so the movie can be more of the focus. If the movie is good their commentary never really detracted from my experience watching it but that's just me. I get where you're coming from.