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Genkkaku

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Genkkaku

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Man did the whole beginning of this game leave a bad taste in my mouth, I'm starting to enjoy it now that I'm like 10 hours in and the game really opens up, but for that whole opening I was having no fun, I wish it had an option to basically turn the story off and just let you go enjoy the world and the systems, because I just didn't care about any of the characters or the story, and the missions where you have to basically just follow a character around for 20+ minutes where woeful.

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Genkkaku

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@westernwizard: For me I was speaking more to the fact that Joi as a character isn't an exploration of humanity and if it is I'm not seeing, because by the end she no longer exists, (which we can talk about the idea of her dying, truly dying much like a human would) but that when K meet's big Joi she gives him the name Joe, showing that the unique name Joi give's him isn't that unique and that his Joi was the same as every other. I think the original movie explored Humanity in both it's chracters and themes, through the idea of what makes a human, is it memory, birth, life, experience, having a childhood, but I didn't see any of that in this new one.

With the memory of the Horse I believe the girl states she uses real memories to create fake ones so she mixed in a bit of reality, the horse, the furnace and sprinkled in the rest in to create a fully realised memory.

With the DNA of the 2 kids at the orphanage, it was used to hide the girl so if anyone looked, they would think it was a boy, but Deckard taught them to fabricate the records, so that they created a fake male version and 'killed' the girl so no-one would suspect the child of being a girl.

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Genkkaku

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@dudeglove: You are totally right with it's depiction of female characters, the weakest part of the original film is when Deckard forces himself on Rachel, and this film feels like a step backwards, and exploitative, there was more prostitutes and unnecessary nudity in this version of the world and the 40 foot nude sales pitch for Joi was such crap, my girlfriend was pretty put off by its treatment of female characters, (denis villeneuve does a bit of that in Enemy).

@minipato: By explore I mean just that explore like films explore ideas, like the original explored what it meant to be human. Prometheus and Covenant are bad examples because they terrible films, and they're like a 1st year philosophy student playing at socrates.

I think you may have watched a different version to me because souls and manufacturing them doesn't really come up.

Wallace posits thats Deckard was created to fall in love with Rachel and to create the first miracle child, and offers him a return to happiness in exchange for the child.

A movie's thematic statement should run through the film, it is the story's position on it's themes. so you should feel it's ideas and implications on all aspects of the film, something Villeneuve has done in his past films.

Well yeah it is because he says "Every civilization was built on the back of a disposable workforce, but I can only make so many." he cannot manufacture enough 'Angels', so he needs the child so he can use it to make more replicants (which is a bad plan because I'm sure in the 18 years it takes for them to grow up he could probably make plenty, that and he should probably stop stabbing them to death but hey plot holes).

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Genkkaku

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@humanity: The only character that deals with the idea of humanity is K, but by the end has shrugged it off (well shrugged is a loose term but like that)

Because aside from K the only other Replicants are Luv who comes off as sympathetic initially but then turns full terminator and has no qualms about not having humanity, the replicant uprising (introduced so late in the film) who only want to remove there shackles of slavery (which the idea of slavery isn't really explored before this because the only Replicant we see is K and he seems quite content with his place in life), and then Joi who is revealed to be nothing more than an idea of false humanity and free will, a slave to repitition.

What other characters are there to explore the idea of humanity?
The baby itself is never elaborated on what it means to be human just what the baby means to each party
Wallace: More replicants to make
Replicants: To break away from there slave labour
Police Lady: The end of the world as we know it

If you guys enjoyed the film and disagree with me, that's awesome, I really did want to enjoy this movie, but every time I think more about the ideas in the film the more fumbled they seem to me, I don't want to come of as argumentative i'm trying to discuss my thoughts on the film to get a better understanding of what you saw versus what I saw.

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Genkkaku

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It's okay you didn't like the movie dude but it's a pretty hollow claim to say it didn't expand on the themes of the original.

Hows it a hollow claim? I'm explaining why i didn't believe that and why I think that, that's not hollow at all bro

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Genkkaku

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@pyrodactyl:
Not the question of humanity, not really, the film is about a replicant looking for a miracle baby, thinking he may be the miracle child then coming to the realization that it all doesn't matter, which is a very nihilstic view, and more explores the the ideas of agency and fate, which are kind of uninteresting, because it all comes back round to the child.

Well i'll admit i'm wrong and the film has something to say but nothing that continues or expands on the ideas of the original, for me anyways, nothing it brought to the table I found particularly interesting, but then i also had issues with characters, scenes, some of the lighting, maybe I expected to much out of a blade runner sequel

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@pyrodactyl: You can take a side on ideas that movies present, because it is just a collection of ideas to be interpreted as the audience see's them.
I think it was more K seeing that his Joi wasn't special and that none of us are, that no-one should lay claim to the 'child' and that is why he rejects the replicant lady's mission to kill deckard, and gives the child to her father, a decision he makes himself, that is the cause he chooses

The reason it is a sci-fi cliche is because of Blade Runner, it wasn't the first to tackle it but it was one of the best, a lot of ideas in sci-fi come from the original, and to throw it aside because now its more of a cliche is a little undermining of the work done in the original. But even said the concept of humanity and what makes us human all the way to the meaning of life, is a question we as people always look for answers and are continually being explored in all forms of media to this day.

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Genkkaku

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@pyrodactyl:

The ideas of Blade Runner weren't basic, and making K a replicant Blade Runner (one that is severely disliked by his fellow cops) is a very interesting concept to explore, so as to look at Blade Runner through a new angle, and they don't explore any of those ideas.

Well thats the thing by the end with the Joi advertisement, you realize that all of her individuality was just code, even the unique name she gives to K isn't that unique as this Massive Joi gives him the same name.

I agree that the biological birth isn't an event to make them more human, which is why i like the concept of humanity in the first move where Pris literally says "I think Sebastion, therefore I am", the replicants defined there humanity themselves, by echoing the ideas of older humans, they are human because they believe they are and they deserve to be as much as the next, a concept Deckard comes around to at the end.

2049 to me never really said anything, never really took a stand, maybe with the end of K he did something independant of everyone else, made his own decision, but he never cared about the moniker of human or individuality, just that he and Joi live.

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Genkkaku

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@genkkaku said:

It doesn't continue any of the ideas and thematic's of the original film, It's own thematic's are also very messy, it doesn't really have a point or find a side.

Didn't build on the character of Roy batty or the concept of humanity at all.

What are you even talking about here? It absolutely continues the themes of the first film. Firstly theres Joi, who takes themes of "what makes us human?" and extends that notion even further, from lab grown humanoid organisms to computer code, and secondly the entire movie is about the search for the child of an artificial human. What's more human than being born? THEN it takes that further by leading you to believe that K is that child, which makes him seem more human to the viewer, only to pull that rug out and say "nah, it was someone else". I honestly don't know what you think the first movie was about my dude?

The thematics of the first film are the very nature of what makes us human, is it memory, experience, and at the end of the first film when Roy Batty give his speech about seeing more in 4 years than a human will ever see in there lifetime Deckard understands that there is nothing that make humans more humans that replicants, and that they deserve to live as much as humans, so he takes rachel and runs and then theres the reveal that he may be a replicant, and he doesn't care because he has already made up his mind

Joi just exists she never questions her existence, she tries to place emphasis on K being special but she just dies, and then the big reveal that the giant ad for Joi calls K Joe anyways, that he's not special that Joi only did what she was programmed to do that she never had any free will

'Whats more human then being born' but no-one really elaborates upon that idea, that was never brought up as an idea of humanity in the first one, and no-one really wants to talk about that idea as an argument for humanity, The Police lady wants to kill it so they dont lose there slave labour, Wallace wants it to make make replicants, and the one eyed lady wants it to create a replicant uprising (a plot point introduced 2 hours into the film without any setup as well), and when K thinks he might be human it shakes him to his core and then it is revealed that he is indeed just another replicant, and he's like 'yeah okay i'll take Deckard to his daughter'. The thing is K never cares about the idea of being human and fighting slavery, he is content to live with Joi in his bubble.

The baby itself is not even an interesting concept, the films treatment of female characters is already kinda poor and it turns rachel from a really interesting character that defines her humanity through her own will, to the virgin mary, she's special because she can give birth

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Genkkaku

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I was so looking forward to this film, I consider the original one of my favorites (I have a blade runner tattoo) and one of the best and most influential films of all time.

And I thought it was a complete and utter garbage movie.

It doesn't continue any of the ideas and thematic's of the original film, It's own thematic's are also very messy, it doesn't really have a point or find a side.
I got bored pretty early on and the basic story, kind of betrays the style of the original, it was a sci-fi Noir and it nailed the ambiguous elements including the ending, and leaving it open and this movie answered them in uninteresting ways.
Didn't build on the character of Roy batty or the concept of humanity at all.
Also Jared Leto was such a pointless character, his motivations weren't great, his god complex wasn't severly interesting and he really adds nothing to the story.