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gnosisispower

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Halo:Reach - Campaign concerns and fears

Just watching some other sites footage of Halo Reach's campaign and two elements shown have struck a cold fear deep inside my gaming bowels.   My concern (based on the two factors detailed below) is that the campaign will not be the reinvention of the Halo series I (and many, many others) have been hoping for - it will simply be a further refinement to the formula. Nothing wrong with that per se (Halo is brilliant), but after 4 releases built around this philosophy I am hoping for an experience as ground-breaking and unique as the first Halo was when it was released. Obviously, it is too early to tell, but I want to share my concerns and see what you guys think.
 
 1) Abilities. Bungie have stated that the ability to switch between abilities is going to be limited. Often, certain abilities will be forced upon you by the designers. That's fine, as it will create some unique and interesting moments. But, outside of this, the only way to switch abilities is by picking them up within the environment. You will not get free-reign Crysis style. You can only hold one abiltiy at a time. This is disappointing, as I had hoped to approach the more sand-box set-pieces is any fashion I wished - stealth, all guns a-blazing etc - and change strategies on the fly. This is now evidently not a possibility. Therefore, outside of some carefully scripted, designer-led events, the abilites are not going to be the major enhancement to the combat I had hoped for. Sure, having a sprint ability or invisibility ability always mapped will be useful (and bring Halo in line with more recent FPS') but for a series always based around player-created approaches to combat, the limiting of ability switching seems a bit...limiting. 
 
2) A lot of the campaign footage shown took place in the exact same environments as some of the multiplayer maps - I'm not talking thematic similarities here but straight up cut and paste jobs. This is worrisome. As far as I am concerned, the thrill of playing the campaign through a first time will be greatly diminished if I am playing my way through areas already experienced in a different mode. I could hold out on the multiplayer until I've completed the campaign but... that's not going to happen. It strikes me as Bungie cutting corners. Halo's multiplayer maps (outside of ODST's FireFight) have always been bespoke built and brilliant. But surely some compromise must arise when areas are being shared between two different modes, and surely to the detriment of one of them. It gives the impression that the campaign isn't going to be the bees knees everyone is hoping it will be. The only justification would be if Bungie have so many  mutliplayer maps out of the box (and so many unique ones) that a bit of recycling to buff up the numbers can be excused. Equally, it can also be excused if the campaign levels are so varied and intricate that the small section lifted for multiplayer is of no consequence. If neither of these variables apply, then my concerns stand. 
 
Obviously, I have other concerns too (can Bungie successfully mix Halo's free-form combat with the more cinematic approach to the genre so beloved of current FPS' for example) but the above are the two most prevalent concerns I have based on what I've seen so far.

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gnosisispower

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Edited By gnosisispower

Just watching some other sites footage of Halo Reach's campaign and two elements shown have struck a cold fear deep inside my gaming bowels.   My concern (based on the two factors detailed below) is that the campaign will not be the reinvention of the Halo series I (and many, many others) have been hoping for - it will simply be a further refinement to the formula. Nothing wrong with that per se (Halo is brilliant), but after 4 releases built around this philosophy I am hoping for an experience as ground-breaking and unique as the first Halo was when it was released. Obviously, it is too early to tell, but I want to share my concerns and see what you guys think.
 
 1) Abilities. Bungie have stated that the ability to switch between abilities is going to be limited. Often, certain abilities will be forced upon you by the designers. That's fine, as it will create some unique and interesting moments. But, outside of this, the only way to switch abilities is by picking them up within the environment. You will not get free-reign Crysis style. You can only hold one abiltiy at a time. This is disappointing, as I had hoped to approach the more sand-box set-pieces is any fashion I wished - stealth, all guns a-blazing etc - and change strategies on the fly. This is now evidently not a possibility. Therefore, outside of some carefully scripted, designer-led events, the abilites are not going to be the major enhancement to the combat I had hoped for. Sure, having a sprint ability or invisibility ability always mapped will be useful (and bring Halo in line with more recent FPS') but for a series always based around player-created approaches to combat, the limiting of ability switching seems a bit...limiting. 
 
2) A lot of the campaign footage shown took place in the exact same environments as some of the multiplayer maps - I'm not talking thematic similarities here but straight up cut and paste jobs. This is worrisome. As far as I am concerned, the thrill of playing the campaign through a first time will be greatly diminished if I am playing my way through areas already experienced in a different mode. I could hold out on the multiplayer until I've completed the campaign but... that's not going to happen. It strikes me as Bungie cutting corners. Halo's multiplayer maps (outside of ODST's FireFight) have always been bespoke built and brilliant. But surely some compromise must arise when areas are being shared between two different modes, and surely to the detriment of one of them. It gives the impression that the campaign isn't going to be the bees knees everyone is hoping it will be. The only justification would be if Bungie have so many  mutliplayer maps out of the box (and so many unique ones) that a bit of recycling to buff up the numbers can be excused. Equally, it can also be excused if the campaign levels are so varied and intricate that the small section lifted for multiplayer is of no consequence. If neither of these variables apply, then my concerns stand. 
 
Obviously, I have other concerns too (can Bungie successfully mix Halo's free-form combat with the more cinematic approach to the genre so beloved of current FPS' for example) but the above are the two most prevalent concerns I have based on what I've seen so far.

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MrCandleguy

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Edited By MrCandleguy

Dude, wait for the game, it will be awesome.

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Dantekiller

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Edited By Dantekiller
@AmonHouston: @AmonHouston said:
" Dude, wait for the game, it will be awesome. "
get ready to have your mind blown it is im playing it at the moment Jtag and yes im buying the game i dont steal 
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Lunar_Aura

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Edited By Lunar_Aura
@Dantekiller said:
" @AmonHouston:  @AmonHouston said:
" Dude, wait for the game, it will be awesome. "
get ready to have your mind blown it is im playing it at the moment Jtag and yes im buying the game i dont steal  "

Hey cool I respect you have some e-cred.
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deactivated-594edfbbc45ca

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They said that the campaign levels show off different areas to the multiplayer versions.  I think they said that you can miss powerhouse out entirely if you don't go where it's situated.

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gnosisispower

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Edited By gnosisispower
@Agent47CSim2: cool...where is this info, btw? Would like to read as much as poss :)
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WoodenPlatypus

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Edited By WoodenPlatypus

chill, the game will be fine. 
 
bungie has use covered, its not going to be another cod 6. 
 
...i hope.
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bcjohnnie

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Edited By bcjohnnie

Yeah dude, calm down... I'm pretty sure this is going to be some Halo-ass Halo, Bungie is not much for messing with quality or changing up the formula too much.

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deactivated-594edfbbc45ca

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@gnosisispower said:
" @Agent47CSim2: cool...where is this info, btw? Would like to read as much as poss :) "
I think it was on one of the podcasts in like February or something, don't have an exact reference but I'm almost certain they said it.
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gnosisispower

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Edited By gnosisispower

thanks for all you guys replying and all but in the main the responses I am getting are "calm down", "chill out" etc. I'm pretty sure I am not angry or bad tempered, just curious and wanting to share my thoughts / concerns and get other peoples thoughts too. Certainly, telling me the game is going to be good is a thought, but telling me to relax is pointless. I'm not trying to flame or start a Halo backlash for God's sake - I've stuck with Halo since the first game! I just wanted to see if anyone knew differently, or had evidence to contradict my fears (incidentally, thank you to Agent47CSim2  who actually DID have something constructive and informative to say).

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EpicSteve

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Edited By EpicSteve

I herd the final boss fight is a $10 bill.

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DrBeardface

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Edited By DrBeardface

Has anybody heard anything about the campaign length?  I enjoy the Halo games, but I don't do a lot of multiplayer.

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jkz

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It baffles me that people can actually play multi-player first. I always play the campaign out of the box, but maybe that's because I started playing games at a time when their multi-player components weren't the deciding factor in buy / don't buy decisions.

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WickedCestus

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Edited By WickedCestus

Wait for the game. It might be bad, but it might be good. There's really no use finding out now, because we can't play it anyway.

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DoctorOptimist

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Edited By DoctorOptimist
@EpicSteve said:
" I herd the final boss fight is a $10 bill. "
If that is true, then I would steal or pirate a copy in a heart beat. 
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Edited By DrBeardface

"Oh look!  Here comes the coincidence train!  Plans announced to raise the cost of LIVE membership mere weeks before Halo Reach (one of the systems most precious franchises for multiplayer gaming) is due to ship?  Hmmmm...
What say you, Coincidence Train?  Is it just by happenstance or other nefarious mechanations? "
"COINCIDENCE TRAIN SAY:  BULLSHIT ON THEM!!!!"
"You guys heard the train, go grab your rakes and brooms, we gotta run em out of thown."

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audiosnag

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Edited By audiosnag
@Agent47CSim2 said:
" They said that the campaign levels show off different areas to the multiplayer versions.  I think they said that you can miss powerhouse out entirely if you don't go where it's situated. "
Yup i heard that one too. The multiplayer maps are incorporated into the campaign that's why you'll see similarities but the geometry is changed to suit the situation and they're usually just parts of the bigger level.
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Edited By Sooperspy

I've played some at my friends house. Yes, hes a modder/hacker and got it illegally. He has already been banned until the year 9999, but can still play it offline. It was fun from what I played. Also messed around on hemorrhage in forge. Its different than how it was, but looks like it will be very fun. (By the way, its a remake of Blood Gulch if you didn't know.)

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Coombs

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Edited By Coombs
@DrBeardface said:

" "Oh look!  Here comes the coincidence train!  Plans announced to raise the cost of LIVE membership mere weeks before Halo Reach (one of the systems most precious franchises for multiplayer gaming) is due to ship?  Hmmmm... What say you, Coincidence Train?  Is it just by happenstance or other nefarious mechanations? ""COINCIDENCE TRAIN SAY:  BULLSHIT ON THEM!!!!""You guys heard the train, go grab your rakes and brooms, we gotta run em out of thown." "

Just be happy you get all the extra stuff that everyone outside the US doesn't get (movies, TV shows, Many DLC items / promotions, ect, ect) 
And we have been paying $59.99 a year since Day 1
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MaddProdigy

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Edited By MaddProdigy
@gnosisispower:  No offense to your post, good thoughts and everything, but some of this is kind of out there. First of all, you are building up ridiculously high expectations. Not to say the first Halo wasn't ground breaking, but look at the climate in the game industry at the time. There weren't tens, or hundreds of other FPS games out there, so it sure seemed like some crazy epic-ness. Bungie is currently dropping their flagship title, a sequel to some of the best selling games ever, in a pretty competitive market. On that note, they're not going to be changing the formula massively. Making it Crysis style? There's a game for that, it's called Crysis. Making it Modern Warfare cinematic moment style? Yeah, they can do a little of that, but for a lot of that I'm sure they'll leave it to the homies at Infinity Ward. This is for sure going to be a halo-ey Halo game. The abilities will still be pick ups, just like bubble shields and all that. Running, jetpacks, and cinematic scenes where the developers force abilities on you are already stepping outside the legendary edition helmet shaped Halo box.
 
As for the campaign. Bungie has said multiple times that they've pulled some of the multiplayer maps directly out of the campaign. Not all the maps, but some are straight out of campaign mode. This by no means indicates that the whole campaign is simply playing through multiplayer maps, there's an entire game called Reach to play through.  In fact, I'd look on pulling them out of the campaign as a good thing. It'd be cool to have some back story to the structures and layout of some of the maps. But again, I'm sure there's a whole campaign worth of different levels, and I know this simply from the trailers I've seen for the game. What makes up a multiplayer map in Halo would cover like 1/20 of any campaign level in Halo 3 anyway. On top of that, Microsoft is probably cracking the whip and making them keep a pack or two of really cool maps as post launch DLC, so there will be tons of content.
 
If your fears really can't be alleviated, I'd suggest checking out some 2 or 3 minute clips of footage from people who got the game illegally already. Won't spoil anything but you'll get an idea of the kind of game it'll be. I'm hoping for a Halo 1 "ground breaker" but eh, I'd be really, really, stoked for just a good Halo game too ya know :P
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DrBeardface

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Edited By DrBeardface
@Coombs said:
" @DrBeardface said:

" "Oh look!  Here comes the coincidence train!  Plans announced to raise the cost of LIVE membership mere weeks before Halo Reach (one of the systems most precious franchises for multiplayer gaming) is due to ship?  Hmmmm... What say you, Coincidence Train?  Is it just by happenstance or other nefarious mechanations? ""COINCIDENCE TRAIN SAY:  BULLSHIT ON THEM!!!!""You guys heard the train, go grab your rakes and brooms, we gotta run em out of thown." "

Just be happy you get all the extra stuff that everyone outside the US doesn't get (movies, TV shows, Many DLC items / promotions, ect, ect) And we have been paying $59.99 a year since Day 1 "
That sucks ass, man.  I have no idea how they treat users outside america.  Maybe start up a thread where people from all over this big beautiful blue marble can share stories about the BS that goes on with all these online "plans" for game systems.
"COINCIDENCE TRAIN SAY: INDUBITABLY"
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DrBeardface

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Edited By DrBeardface

My biggest concern is the length of the solo campaign mode.  The first Halo was pretty decent.  Halo 2 was fairly short (around 8 hours?), and Halo 3 was abysmally short (5 hours-ish).  From what I understand, ODST was around 4-5 hours story time as well.  All I want is a nice big solo campaign to play through and get to see exactly how things went to shit for the Earth.  C'mon, Bungie!  12 hour Halo Reach story campaign! (standard length for current first person shooters)

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Vinny_Says

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Edited By Vinny_Says

Are your fears based on the fact that you fear wasting $60 or on the fact that it might be a huge disappointment? If it's a money thing you can always just rent it first...

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DrBeardface

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Edited By DrBeardface

Mostly money with a dash of disappointment.  There are a number of games I'm interested in, but Halo Reach is the only one that gives me pause.  I guess I can try renting/borrowing the game.  I do live in a college town, so who knows when I'll get to check it out.  Thanks for the advice blacklabeldomm.  Fallout: New Vegas, looks like you get a second chance at bat!

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deactivated-57d3a53d23027

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Halo 3 + ODST + Wars, to me are overrated and I don't like those games because they suck and they are so popular (& I hate the tea-bagging). Halo Reach will be much better, and I already like the idea of getting to fly a spacecraft at one point in the campaign. The fire-fight multiplayer looks really good (although the promo videos possibly make it look more fun than it actually is).

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Edited By Hashbrowns

 
I know there isn't much love for G4 around here, but take a gander at these two previewvideos with Marcus Lehto, Reach's creative director.  There's some pretty awesome campaign footage which certainly set my mind at ease as far as scale goes.

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withateethuh

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@DrBeardface said:
" My biggest concern is the length of the solo campaign mode.  The first Halo was pretty decent.  Halo 2 was fairly short (around 8 hours?), and Halo 3 was abysmally short (5 hours-ish).  From what I understand, ODST was around 4-5 hours story time as well.  All I want is a nice big solo campaign to play through and get to see exactly how things went to shit for the Earth.  C'mon, Bungie!  12 hour Halo Reach story campaign! (standard length for current first person shooters) "
12 hours is much longer than most single player first person shooters as far as I'm concerned.
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@withateethuh said:
12 hours is much longer than most single player first person shooters as far as I'm concerned. "
It's hard to justify a game by "hours" though because it's based on the person and the difficulty they play at.  I don't even think that "hours" should come into play.  The right length is one where you finish the game and feel like you were able to get your full worth out of it.  Halo 2 felt short because of that ending, and Halo 3 felt short because it had one too many flood levels (Cortana) so I repressed those memories.  I'm sure Bungie could do something like Doom and just put a bunch of random enemies in a box to extend gameplay, but then we would get a level like the Library in Halo 1.  So I rather go for short and sweet rather than long and boring.
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withateethuh

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Edited By withateethuh
@MaddProdigy: An excellent point, Half-Life 2 is a great game that is relatively short but packed full of content and had an engaging plot.
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DoctorOptimist

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Edited By DoctorOptimist
@DrBeardface said:
" My biggest concern is the length of the solo campaign mode.  The first Halo was pretty decent.  Halo 2 was fairly short (around 8 hours?), and Halo 3 was abysmally short (5 hours-ish).  From what I understand, ODST was around 4-5 hours story time as well.  All I want is a nice big solo campaign to play through and get to see exactly how things went to shit for the Earth.  C'mon, Bungie!  12 hour Halo Reach story campaign! (standard length for current first person shooters) "
Bungie confirmed that playing Halo: Reach on easy would be as long as playing Halo: CE on Normal. I hope that's true, because it sounds too good to be true. Considering single-player games are getting shorter and shorter these days.
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DrBeardface

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Edited By DrBeardface
@DoctorOptimist said:
" @DrBeardface said:
" My biggest concern is the length of the solo campaign mode.  The first Halo was pretty decent.  Halo 2 was fairly short (around 8 hours?), and Halo 3 was abysmally short (5 hours-ish).  From what I understand, ODST was around 4-5 hours story time as well.  All I want is a nice big solo campaign to play through and get to see exactly how things went to shit for the Earth.  C'mon, Bungie!  12 hour Halo Reach story campaign! (standard length for current first person shooters) "
Bungie confirmed that playing Halo: Reach on easy would be as long as playing Halo: CE on Normal. I hope that's true, because it sounds too good to be true. Considering single-player games are getting shorter and shorter these days. "
Awesome!  I'm back in!  Amazon gets my money for this game, I'll use the $20 bonus Amazon bucks to snowball it into New Vegas as well.  Thanks for the info!
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DystopiaX

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@gnosisispower: They have stated, from the beginning of the MP reveal, that it was their intent to create MP maps that would then be present in some form in the singleplayer. Also, no, I do not want multiple AA, most of which are only useful in one specific situation/little to no overlap anyway.  
 
You're complaining now, but if they changed too much people would complain even more that they changed their Halo...
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DystopiaX

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Edited By DystopiaX
@DrBeardface said:
" My biggest concern is the length of the solo campaign mode.  The first Halo was pretty decent.  Halo 2 was fairly short (around 8 hours?), and Halo 3 was abysmally short (5 hours-ish).  From what I understand, ODST was around 4-5 hours story time as well.  All I want is a nice big solo campaign to play through and get to see exactly how things went to shit for the Earth.  C'mon, Bungie!  12 hour Halo Reach story campaign! (standard length for current first person shooters) "
12 hours is nowhere near the standard length of an FPS. It's more like 6-8, and Reach does do that. If you feel it's too short, it's probably cause you're blazing through the damn thing. Bungie recommends that if you play games "hardcore", then you should start on heroic. Also, MP and co-op have always been the focus of Halo, and Firefight is still fun in a single player setting.
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DrBeardface

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Edited By DrBeardface
@DystopiaX said:
" 12 hours is nowhere near the standard length of an FPS. It's more like 6-8, and Reach does do that. If you feel it's too short, it's probably cause you're blazing through the damn thing. Bungie recommends that if you play games "hardcore", then you should start on heroic. Also, MP and co-op have always been the focus of Halo, and Firefight is still fun in a single player setting. "
I may have been a little overzealous with my use of hyperbole.  I'm not sure that co-op/multi was always the focus, at least not for the first game.  The series has certainly shifted that direction over the last 3 games, I was just hoping they would do the story justice considering they've been teasing the events of Reach for years (rise and fall of the Spartans, declaration of war with the Covenant, etc).  This is the beginning of everything Halo and I'm crossing my fingers for a game I can't beat in one 5 hour session, that's all.
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deactivated-594edfbbc45ca

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@DystopiaX said:
" @DrBeardface said:
" My biggest concern is the length of the solo campaign mode.  The first Halo was pretty decent.  Halo 2 was fairly short (around 8 hours?), and Halo 3 was abysmally short (5 hours-ish).  From what I understand, ODST was around 4-5 hours story time as well.  All I want is a nice big solo campaign to play through and get to see exactly how things went to shit for the Earth.  C'mon, Bungie!  12 hour Halo Reach story campaign! (standard length for current first person shooters) "
12 hours is nowhere near the standard length of an FPS. It's more like 6-8, and Reach does do that. If you feel it's too short, it's probably cause you're blazing through the damn thing. Bungie recommends that if you play games "hardcore", then you should start on heroic. Also, MP and co-op have always been the focus of Halo, and Firefight is still fun in a single player setting. "
They recommend you start on Heroic then go on Legendary, there is no hardcore difficulty.
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DystopiaX

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Edited By DystopiaX
@Agent47CSim2 said:
" @DystopiaX said:
" @DrBeardface said:
" My biggest concern is the length of the solo campaign mode.  The first Halo was pretty decent.  Halo 2 was fairly short (around 8 hours?), and Halo 3 was abysmally short (5 hours-ish).  From what I understand, ODST was around 4-5 hours story time as well.  All I want is a nice big solo campaign to play through and get to see exactly how things went to shit for the Earth.  C'mon, Bungie!  12 hour Halo Reach story campaign! (standard length for current first person shooters) "
12 hours is nowhere near the standard length of an FPS. It's more like 6-8, and Reach does do that. If you feel it's too short, it's probably cause you're blazing through the damn thing. Bungie recommends that if you play games "hardcore", then you should start on heroic. Also, MP and co-op have always been the focus of Halo, and Firefight is still fun in a single player setting. "
They recommend you start on Heroic then go on Legendary, there is no hardcore difficulty. "  
I know. I meant that Bungie recommends that you start on Heroic if you play shooter games.
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DystopiaX

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Edited By DystopiaX
@DrBeardface said:
" @DystopiaX said:
" 12 hours is nowhere near the standard length of an FPS. It's more like 6-8, and Reach does do that. If you feel it's too short, it's probably cause you're blazing through the damn thing. Bungie recommends that if you play games "hardcore", then you should start on heroic. Also, MP and co-op have always been the focus of Halo, and Firefight is still fun in a single player setting. "
I may have been a little overzealous with my use of hyperbole.  I'm not sure that co-op/multi was always the focus, at least not for the first game.  The series has certainly shifted that direction over the last 3 games, I was just hoping they would do the story justice considering they've been teasing the events of Reach for years (rise and fall of the Spartans, declaration of war with the Covenant, etc).  This is the beginning of everything Halo and I'm crossing my fingers for a game I can't beat in one 5 hour session, that's all. "
Everything I've seen about the campaign looks awesome so far (anything older than the past 2 weeks, which I have been ignoring, cause spoilers). Epic large firefights, real sense of scale- which Jeff agreed was there in the bombcast, what looks to be an awesome story. Just hope they finally get it right and there's no terrible level, like Cortana in H3. There always seems to be one... 
Also, I think that Bungie is really smart about making everything replayable- campaign scoring, skulls not in Reach, but Bungie has said there will be skull-like collectibles on the map), etc.
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MisterChief

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Edited By MisterChief

I just finished it and it took about 5 hours on normal.

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TaliciaDragonsong

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I think the problem with games like this is that people have way too high expectations.
 
I know for a fact I will play the living bejesus out of this game's singleplayer and multiplayer.
I finished ODST's campaign several times and I can dream the Halo 3 campaign.
And I think I'm one of the biggest Nintendo fans ever, so no fangirlism here either.
This game will just be good.

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MisterChief

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Edited By MisterChief

After finishing it this is how I would rank the campaigns from all the games: Reach > CE > 2 > 3 > ODST.

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withateethuh

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Edited By withateethuh

How was the challenge on normal?