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Hailinel

I wrote this little thing (it's not actually a little thing): http://www.giantbomb.com/profile/hailinel/blog/lightning-returns-wha...

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A rant regarding the problem with HD fanboys.

A Quick Look of the just-release hack-and-slasher Muramasa:  The Demon Blade was posted on the site today.  Aside from Ryan's inexplicable reluctance to find out what the B Button does, the video does a good job of showing just how pretty the game looks in motion.  It's an excellent game and one of the best Wii games yet.  From the time I've spent with it, I'd recommend it to anyone with the console.  It's just a shame that any time a game like this comes along, there's always that group of knuckleheads that feels the need to post comments like these:
 
"I would play this if it was on PS3, PS2 or X360
 
No thanks to a Wii version though"
 
"Man, I'm really sold on this game but I don't think I'm ready to buy a Wii just yet... I wish it would come to 360 or PS3."
 
"If this was on XBL Arcade, I'd be willing to pay 15 bucks for it.  But nothing makes we want a Wii."
 
"Can't help thinking that this should have been a downloadable PSN/XBLA game. Too bad."
 
"word, I want this game in HD."
 
I can understand not wanting it if it's not your cup of tea, or if you just don't have the time or money for it, or in general just don't have the interest.  But seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you guys?  The moment a Wii game that would appeal to a crowd other than the casual party game player comes out, you leap on it like a bunch of starving wolves, only to reject it for the fact that it's on a console you don't like, or you're too spoiled to play it in anything other than HD.  What does it matter if it's in HD or not?  It's a beautiful looking game in the resolution it was made for.
 
This generation has done nothing but produce a bunch of graphics whores of the worst kind.  They ignore the beauty that exists in a game's art, pay more attention to hardware specs, and don't believe a game is worth a disc-based release if it's in 2D.  Apparently, as consoles become more powerful, the people playing those consoles are becoming progressively dumber.  It's depressing, really.
 
And I say all of this despite owning both a Wii and a PS3.  Why should I ignore a fun game on one console because of some petulent desire to play it on the other?  If a game is engaging and looks gorgeous on less-powerful hardware, why should I ignore it if I have the means to play it?  Why should I announce to the world that I have no interest in the game if the sole reason is that it isn't on an HD console?
 
In other words, why should I make myself look like a hardware-elitist douche?

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Rio

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Edited By Rio
@AgentJ:   What exactly did I generalize?  I generalized a consistency in gameplay styles on the Wii, because there is a large majority of the library founded on that gimmicky gameplay style.  Did I ever say that all wii games suck?  no.  Did I ever say that Wii controls cause Wii games to suck? no.  Just to point out, one generalization does not equal another, so please tell me your not making that argument.  Again your ignorant assumptions scare me.  Some how by my past comment I am now thrown into the "WIii games suck because they not advanzors and too waggly", come on now.  I made my point very clear about my feeling on "Warrant of a purchase" and not about the relevancy of appeal of the console..... in fact I believe I specifically stated "I understand the appeal".  
 
Your conclusions are baseless and very annoying.  You sir are too defensive of the Wii and have somehow insulted me with your labeling, thats impressive indeed seeing as I'm normally a laid back guy.  
 
ps  Not sure why I'm so pissed off right now, I guess its just a huge pet peeve of mine to be brushed off as benighted for no real reason, its like a superiority complex just walked in the room and started pissing on people (dont ask).
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AgentJ

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Edited By AgentJ
@Rio said:
" @AgentJ:   What exactly did I generalize?  I generalized a consistence in gameplay styles on the Wii, because there is a large majority of the library founded on that gimmicky gameplay style.  Did I ever say that all wii games suck?  no.  Did I ever say that Wii controls cause Wii games to suck? no.  Just to point out, one generalization does not equal another, so please tell me your not making that argument.  Again your ignorant assumptions scare me.  Some how by my past comment I am now thrown into the "WIii games suck because they not advanzors and too waggly", come on now.  I made my point very clear about my feeling on "Warrant of a purchase" and not about the relevancy of appeal of the consol..... in fact I believe I specifically stated "I understand the appeal".    Your conclusions are baseless and very annoying.  You sir are too defensive of the Wii and have somehow insulted me with your assumptions, thats impressive indeed seeing as I'm normally a laid back guy.    ps  Not sure why I'm so pissed off right now, I guess its just a huge pet peeve of mine to be brushed of as benighted for no real reason, its like a superiority complex just walked in the room and started pissing on people (dont ask). "
Okay, lets hit these up one at a time shall we? 
You admit that you did generalize. The large majority of the Wii library is in fact shovelware. That is pretty much an undisputable fact. The same was true for the PS2.  
You seem to be claiming though that I said somewhere that every wii hater is uninformed. I did no such thing, and if you can find a quote of me saying that then I'll apoligize. Frankly though, it's gotten to the point where I automaticly doubt someone who says the wii library is crap, because the majority of the time they are takling out their ass. I haven't seen you really say much on the subject of your wii play experiences at this point.  
Perhaps I am to defensive of the wii. But I think the fire it has come under is completely unjust. Really, i don't like it any more than my 360, and it pales in comparison to the love I have for my DS, but there is just so much hate out there that I find ridiculous. 
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AgentJ

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Edited By AgentJ
@oldschool said:
" @Linkyshinks said:
" Yeah all such views are totally idiotic in my eyes, for a number of reasons.  
 
  
The claims that it would play better on 360 are dumb, how could it with the shittest D-pad (ever made on a popular console) of all the consoles and it's loose analog?  This game requires responsive tight controls.
 
 
The game looks awesome in every respect already, it would benefit very little with HD output, apart from appealing to HD hoars.  There's a good interview on the Vanillaware's page that explains why it's on Wii.- Vannilaware dont care about HD graphics, they see the game as stunning without them and easier to contruct on Wii through programming.     ... "
This gets my vote as the most sensible comment on this thread.  "
I'll second that motion
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Branthog

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@AgentJ said:
" @Branthog said:
I love great graphics and immersion and one can't deny other consoles excel over the Wii in that respect. There is more to a game than those elements, though. Like gameplay. For myself - and I can't really say why - I just don't find anything compelling about the Wii's typical gameplay. I own one. I also own a PS3, XBOX 360 and about 20 other consoles. I wanted to love the Wii. I'd love to be drawn to it all the time. But I'm not.  After more than two years, I only have 15 games for the Wii and about 15 games for the PS3 and about 120 games for the XBOX 360. Between the PS3 and 360, I'd just as well be playing all the games on the PS3, bu some aren't available, some are better on the 360, and the multi-player is almost always preferable on the 360. But... that's mostly a pragmatic decision rather than any sort of "OMG I love the 360" loyalty.  When it come to playing time... it probably comes out to the same proportions. I haven't even touched the week in a full 18 months. Last time I touched it was when Boom Blox came out and I played it for about an hour before shutting if off.  I guess I'm not overwhelmed by Mario and Mario related games and I don't find anything terribly interesting about pretending to bowl or row a boat with a Wiimote. More importantly, the lack of voice chat online and the difficulty in arranging connecting to and playing with other people on the Wii keeps me from even bothering. I know a few people with one and I just don't care enough to bother setting up the online stuff. And even if we did, how would we communicate about what it was we wanted to do next?  I definitely have nothing against the Wii. I just wish it had more for me. For what it's worth, my little sister loves to play it when she visits (she's in her early 20s) but that's about it. If I'm not their market, that's okay. I'm not the market for those "Imaginez" titles on the DS, either. Not everything that is put out has to cater to my tastes. "
You bring up some interesting falsehoods in this post here. First of all, the Wii does in fact have voice chat. Sure, the online service for the most part isn't great, but for games like Smash Bros, it works just fine.  of course, you wouldn't know that since you mentioned you haven't bothered to set it up. 
 I can accept that the Wii may not have many games to appeal to you, but that remark about Mario games makes me think that it may be more ignorance on your part than anything else. I myself only own one Mario game, that being the much lauded Galaxy, and haven't even popped that one in yet. Like I just said to another Giantbomber, go take a look at the Wii side of these boards and you may find a few games that you want.   
As far as immersion goes, well, why don't you go play Muramasa and see if you still feel the same way.
 Oh and please, don't even get me started on the DS library.  "
 
I would call it inaccurate to say my comments are "falsehoods". Maybe it has changed now, but when the Wii was released, I am almost certain that it did not have voice chat and the only way you could find or interact with other players was via a convoluted "friend code"... and also an additional "game code". You had to be like a fucking World War II codebreaker to successfully set it up and play with the intended person (and if you succeeded on your side, you had to hope they figured it out on theirs as well).
 
Ignorance of what? Mario? 
Look, as cute and fun as Mario Galaxy was, it wasn't all that compelling overall. I think I've had enough Mario franchise after twenty-five years. And as for Smash Bros... perhaps it was just the group I was playing with, but god damn it was just a bunch of memory-lane nostalgia mixed with button smashing. It was like everything was a giant roll of randomness. Then again, I didn't get very deep into it, so I may have missed something.
 
Like I said, I have nothing against the Wii. I think they are missing the mark in a lot of ways, but at least they have pushed the envelope and tried new things. Good for them. They just aren't persuading me to walk across the room and hit the power button in that little white monolith more than about once per year.
 
I keep my eye out for Wii games. I buy a lot of them (and then either don't play them or lose interest quickly in them). I've tried something from most of the genres on the Wii and come away thinking almost every time "I could have had this experience on the DS" or "so the only unique thing about this is that it's making me waggle a fucking plastic stick".
 
I would really love to see them do some hardcore RPG type stuff on it, though. Maybe even a crazy mix of old-school RPG (but better graphics and more depth to meet the Wii's capabilities) meets MMO of some kind. That might be charming and entertaining and get me into... because I know yet another Metroid remake or stacking some damn blocks or paddling a canoe or operating on a patient or doing yoga sure isn't (okay, I never did the yoga thing, but just saying'...).
 
I guess what it comes down to for me is that as innovative as the controls are, I just don't care that much. They feel like a gimmick far too often. And for what games are enjoyable, they may as well just be DS games. And for a lot of the platform's genres, it comes down to the often cited "well, this is cool... for a Wii game." But I have other consoles. It needs to be more than just a good game compared to the rest of the platform's library. It has to be really good, period.
 
I am just not seeing the huge "value add" where the Wii is concerned. There has to be something that compels me to play it. That compels me to think about it when I wake up or come home or need to relax. Something that says "you want to hit the power button and do something". And... there hasn't really been that, yet. 
 
As for the DS... I may have missed your point there. Yes, there are a lot of great titles for the DS. Hell, I own a lot of them. But there are also a lot of terribly stupid ones like the cheerleading, wedding, fashion design, babysitting, and other ones. Like I said, those games aren't meant to cater to me just like a lot of the Wii games clearly aren't. And as I said above, everything doesn't have to cater to me. Or you for that matter. It still, however, comes down to the fact that they haven't managed to draw me into the Wii after a long time of ownership and many purchases. I'm open to it. I'm not ruling it out forever. But so far... fail.
 
They're clearly striking the chords of a lot of other people, though. So maybe they don't care about the demographic (whatever it is) that I fit into. Otherwise they'd have probably figured a way to capture it by now. In the meantime, the Wii is the thing that gets turned on when there are a lot of people visiting and everyone just wants to look goofy and compete at silly contests with each other.
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MrKlorox

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Edited By MrKlorox

"High Definition Elitists" would be more accurate. Fanboy implies allegiance to something that doesn't have a clear superior. Whereas HD resolutions are factually and mathematically superior than SD resolutions.

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@MrKlorox said:

" "High Definition Elitists" would be more accurate. Fanboy implies allegiance to something that doesn't have a clear superior. Whereas HD resolutions are factually and mathematically superior than SD resolutions. "

This is the truth. Whomever said that HD was a fad earlier in this thread is wrong.
That's as if somebody said that colour TV's would be a fad back in the day.
 
As far as I gathered the position is more people who immediately dismiss something because it ISN'T HD.
 
EDIT: Pantera ruled. RIP Dimebag
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Edited By MrKlorox

Yes, the utter dismissal based on resolution alone is indeed silly, especially when all other games on the platform are the same way. But really, if one thinks somebody is a douche for commenting that a (probably the most) beautiful Wii game would really benefit from HD graphics, then I hear kettles are nozzled bags filled with soapy water.

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AgentJ

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@Branthog said:  "  
 
1.I would call it inaccurate to say my comments are "falsehoods". Maybe it has changed now, but when the Wii was released, I am almost certain that it did not have voice chat and the only way you could find or interact with other players was via a convoluted "friend code"... and also an additional "game code". You had to be like a fucking World War II codebreaker to successfully set it up and play with the intended person (and if you succeeded on your side, you had to hope they figured it out on theirs as well). 

 
2.Ignorance of what? Mario? 
Look, as cute and fun as Mario Galaxy was, it wasn't all that compelling overall. I think I've had enough Mario franchise after twenty-five years. And as for Smash Bros... perhaps it was just the group I was playing with, but god damn it was just a bunch of memory-lane nostalgia mixed with button smashing. It was like everything was a giant roll of randomness. Then again, I didn't get very deep into it, so I may have missed something.
 
3.Like I said, I have nothing against the Wii. I think they are missing the mark in a lot of ways, but at least they have pushed the envelope and tried new things. Good for them. They just aren't persuading me to walk across the room and hit the power button in that little white monolith more than about once per year.
 
4.I keep my eye out for Wii games. I buy a lot of them (and then either don't play them or lose interest quickly in them). I've tried something from most of the genres on the Wii and come away thinking almost every time "I could have had this experience on the DS" or "so the only unique thing about this is that it's making me waggle a fucking plastic stick".
 
5.I would really love to see them do some hardcore RPG type stuff on it, though. Maybe even a crazy mix of old-school RPG (but better graphics and more depth to meet the Wii's capabilities) meets MMO of some kind. That might be charming and entertaining and get me into... because I know yet another Metroid remake or stacking some damn blocks or paddling a canoe or operating on a patient or doing yoga sure isn't (okay, I never did the yoga thing, but just saying'...).
 
6.I guess what it comes down to for me is that as innovative as the controls are, I just don't care that much. They feel like a gimmick far too often. And for what games are enjoyable, they may as well just be DS games. And for a lot of the platform's genres, it comes down to the often cited "well, this is cool... for a Wii game." But I have other consoles. It needs to be more than just a good game compared to the rest of the platform's library. It has to be really good, period.  I am just not seeing the huge "value add" where the Wii is concerned. There has to be something that compels me to play it. That compels me to think about it when I wake up or come home or need to relax. Something that says "you want to hit the power button and do something". And... there hasn't really been that, yet.   As for the DS... I may have missed your point there. Yes, there are a lot of great titles for the DS. Hell, I own a lot of them. But there are also a lot of terribly stupid ones like the cheerleading, wedding, fashion design, babysitting, and other ones. Like I said, those games aren't meant to cater to me just like a lot of the Wii games clearly aren't. And as I said above, everything doesn't have to cater to me. Or you for that matter. It still, however, comes down to the fact that they haven't managed to draw me into the Wii after a long time of ownership and many purchases. I'm open to it. I'm not ruling it out forever. But so far... fail.  They're clearly striking the chords of a lot of other people, though. So maybe they don't care about the demographic (whatever it is) that I fit into. Otherwise they'd have probably figured a way to capture it by now. In the meantime, the Wii is the thing that gets turned on when there are a lot of people visiting and everyone just wants to look goofy and compete at silly contests with each other. "
  1 Yes, when the Wii was released there was no voice chat, but it has had that feature for some time now, at least a year. And while most first party games still have the friend codes, its clear that a number of third parties are abandoning the idea. Yes, Friend codes were always a horrible idea. No one is disputing that 
2. Didn't I just get done saying I only own a single mario game for the platform? One I haven't played yet? This is the kind of ignorance I've been talking about. With Smash Brothers, it almost sounds like you haven't played other games in the series, nor did you realize that most gamers turn items off, which would get rid of your "randomness" idea. 
3.I don't understand it when you say things like "I haven't turned it on in a year" and then in the next paragraph say "I buy a lot of them and then lose interest". Which is it? And for that matter, which games are these? I can totally understand not liking the wii if First and third person shooters are pretty much the only games you play, but I'm pretty sure every other genre is well spoken for.  
4. If the only worthwhile things about the games you are playing is the waggle, than you are playing the wrong games.  
5. Tales of Graces, Dragon Quest X, and Monster Hunter 3 are all on the way to the wii, so your hardcore RPG hunger will be filled. I don't know what you mean by "another metroid remake" since there has only been one, and that package is about the best money that can be spent in gaming after the Orange Box. The only other worthwhile game you even mentioned was Trauma Center, and I can see that one not appealing to everyone. 
6. I'd like to see No More Heroes, Madworld, De Blob, Battalion Wars, Twilight Princess or Zack and Wiki work on the DS. No really, i'm being serious, because I'd love to play all of those games on the go. I just know it's not realistic. Each of those games would be shells of their former selves on the DS. And frankly, each of those games go way beyond the "for a wii game" bit that everyone seems to use these days. That's not even including Muramasa. 
Again, I'll make it clear that I understand there are some genres that are underrepresented on the Wii, and that seems to be the main bit of stickyness for people who genuinely don't like the wii. However, it'd be unfortunate to miss out on some great games just because they aren't what you are used to. 
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MrGetBonus

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Edited By MrGetBonus
@AgentJ: Well in an attempt to  make this thread less annoying to go through I'll just use reply on this one. Anyway, that's great that there's a way for smaller companies to get their games out there in the form of Wii games and portables. That doesn't make it better though. Don't get me wrong. When I get the spare cash, I'll eventually pick this up. Maybe some of comments could have been expressed better then "WII R TEH SUX KIDZ CONSOLE" but under all that shit, I can kinda see where some of them are coming from. Anyway, that's all I'll say on the subject today. Good day to you, Sirs.
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AgentJ

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@MrGetBonus said:
" @AgentJ: Well in an attempt to  make this thread less annoying to go through I'll just use reply on this one. Anyway, that's great that there's a way for smaller companies to get their games out there in the form of Wii games and portables. That doesn't make it better though. Don't get me wrong. When I get the spare cash, I'll eventually pick this up. Maybe some of comments could have been expressed better then "WII R TEH SUX KIDZ CONSOLE" but under all that shit, I can kinda see where some of them are coming from. "
But as Linkyshinks pointed out, it's not worse off for being on the wii either. Like he said, the graphical upgrade would be negligible and the controls of the other consoles would put some people off. On the wii, people have more choice in how they play the game. I still think the idea of "Wii R teh sux" is ridiculous, but it seems we have hit an end point here. 
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@Hailinel: 
I feel the same way you do about this topic and I'm glad you posted this. I'm really enjoying Muramasa and it is definitely in my top 5 Wii games. I just hope people will play the game and enjoy it for what it is instead of judging it from the sidelines : /   
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@AgentJ: Perhaps I should refine my comments:
 
Yes, I understand a lot has happened since I last turned my Wii on. However, my Wii doesn't have to be on to read reviews, watch trailers, playthroughs, demos, etc during that same time. The experience back then was so lackluster that nothing I've seen yet has compensated for the negative feelings I had about the machine enough that I want to rush back and flip the switch and start going at it with the Wii again.
 
You're right that there are a few good RPGs for the Wii, but considering this is Nintendo (and the DS has a nice library of them, even if some are just remakes) I'd hope for a lot more.
 
As for some of the titles you pointed out... Mad World just seemed like a giant gimmick, too. "Holy shit! We're Nintendo and this game is so violent!". Wow.
 And No More Heroes? It was certainly odd, but I'm not sure about great. The whole game seemed predicated on "this is some crazy shit! isn't this crazy?! Look how crazy this is! It's craaazy!".
 
I don't mean to be so dismissive of the console because a lot of the content for it is not awful. It just doesn't stand out for me and too much of what Nintendo does really does come across to me as "the next gimmick".

Overall, I think the best way to summarize my impression of the Wii after owning it for so long is that it is very shallow and broad. It has a little bit of everything, but not a lot. It seems like it's a console without a personality. That they throw a lot of things at it to see what sticks and then move on to the next thing. I'm not sure if that view is accurate, but it's how I see it. Is it a casual game machine? Is it for your grandmother to bowl with the knitting club? Is it for your mom to do fake yoga with? Is it for you to relive your early platformer and side-scroller nostalgia? Is it a whacky, zany, art-house game system? Is it just another venue for Kung-Fu Panda games? Is it a box you break out for party games when everyone is drunk?
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Branthog

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Edited By Branthog
@AgentJ said:

" @MrGetBonus said:

" @AgentJ: Well in an attempt to  make this thread less annoying to go through I'll just use reply on this one. Anyway, that's great that there's a way for smaller companies to get their games out there in the form of Wii games and portables. That doesn't make it better though. Don't get me wrong. When I get the spare cash, I'll eventually pick this up. Maybe some of comments could have been expressed better then "WII R TEH SUX KIDZ CONSOLE" but under all that shit, I can kinda see where some of them are coming from. "
But as Linkyshinks pointed out, it's not worse off for being on the wii either. Like he said, the graphical upgrade would be negligible and the controls of the other consoles would put some people off. On the wii, people have more choice in how they play the game. I still think the idea of "Wii R teh sux" is ridiculous, but it seems we have hit an end point here.  "
 I certainly agree with the sentiment that dismissing the Wii on resolution is idiotic. Not only because resolution isn't very meaningful, but because there are so many other reasons to dismiss the Wii. Like, for example, how once you take away the Wiimote "novelty" what you are left with is essention a bunch of games for the DS (which is fine, but then I could just play them on the DS).
 
As for immersion, as others have mentioned... Immersion is far more than resolution or graphics. It's certainly far more than "LOOK! I have white plastic sticks and I'm fucking' WAGGLING them! I'm totally fucking IMMERSED as shit right now!". It's a combination of graphics, controls, story, robustness of the world it's in (which has to do more with detail given to aspects of the game and world rather than any sort of graphical aspect). There aren't a ton of those on any console and seemingly few (if any) on the Wii. Really, are you immersed using the waggle stick in Wii Sports or Boom Blox?
 
 I wish that they would boost their library of downloadable stuff. Everything old school should be on there (and affordable). Then play to the Wii's strengths not by having a bunch of shallow "waggle the stick to do something" games, but by substituting great graphics/resolution/whatever with very deep play, deep story, etc. I would love to see some sort of old-school style RPG-cum-MMO on the Wii that recognized right off the bat it was never going to knock socks off graphically, so focused more on a ridiculously deep story and world that could keep you sucked in for the entire life of the box.
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@Branthog said:
" @AgentJ: Perhaps I should refine my comments:
 
Yes, I understand a lot has happened since I last turned my Wii on. However, my Wii doesn't have to be on to read reviews, watch trailers, playthroughs, demos, etc during that same time. The experience back then was so lackluster that nothing I've seen yet has compensated for the negative feelings I had about the machine enough that I want to rush back and flip the switch and start going at it with the Wii again.
 
You're right that there are a few good RPGs for the Wii, but considering this is Nintendo (and the DS has a nice library of them, even if some are just remakes) I'd hope for a lot more.
 
As for some of the titles you pointed out... Mad World just seemed like a giant gimmick, too. "Holy shit! We're Nintendo and this game is so violent!". Wow.
 And No More Heroes? It was certainly odd, but I'm not sure about great. The whole game seemed predicated on "this is some crazy shit! isn't this crazy?! Look how crazy this is! It's craaazy!".
 
I don't mean to be so dismissive of the console because a lot of the content for it is not awful. It just doesn't stand out for me and too much of what Nintendo does really does come across to me as "the next gimmick".

Overall, I think the best way to summarize my impression of the Wii after owning it for so long is that it is very shallow and broad. It has a little bit of everything, but not a lot. It seems like it's a console without a personality. That they throw a lot of things at it to see what sticks and then move on to the next thing. I'm not sure if that view is accurate, but it's how I see it. Is it a casual game machine? Is it for your grandmother to bowl with the knitting club? Is it for your mom to do fake yoga with? Is it for you to relive your early platformer and side-scroller nostalgia? Is it a whacky, zany, art-house game system? Is it just another venue for Kung-Fu Panda games? Is it a box you break out for party games when everyone is drunk? "
Okay, as far as I'm concerned you invalidated everything you have said so far with that first paragraph. If you are getting everything you know about the wii from reviews and trailers (for a console where you almost have to have the game in your hand) then it's no wonder you don't like the wii. You don't help yourself out by saying "there are a few good RPGs on the wii" in response to me telling you what RPGs are ON THE WAY.  And of course, the only thing you can say about two of the best games in the library is that they were only made to be edgy. (when both games arguably use the motion controls more effectively than any other game in the library) Enough of this. I think it has become painfully obvious to all involved that you know very little about the topic beind discussed and if you had any sense whatsoever you wouldn't comment on the console until you've played a few decent games for it. 
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@Tarsier said:
" There's nothing fanboyish about wanting to experience the highest quality picture in your videogames. Face it, the Wii is low quality. The only thing it has that's special about it is the gimmicky controller. Nintendo said that it would make you more immersed in the games, but I have found that it actually takes you out of the experience, and I'm sure most people here have found that as well. I backed Nintendo for about a year of having the Wii until I realized that it was a gimmick and that it was just a money grab. Instead of giving us good games, high quality graphics, high quality gameplay, a good online component, and good controls, they gave us "smiles."  I am not smiling Nintendo. I am not smiling one little bit.  This post probably has nothing to do with whatever argument is going on right now, but I just thought I would share my opinion about the subject. "
Even if it was a gimick, it still has plenty of great games that warrant a purchase. 
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WinterSnowblind

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Edited By WinterSnowblind

We've had a problem with graphic whores since the Super NES and Genesis.  It's not a recent porblem. 
If anything, I think this generation has helped that, with things like XBLA and downloadable games proving very popular despite their simplicity.

I can actually sympathise with the HD thing.  Since the Wii doesn't support it, it looks like crap on an HD TV.  You're forced between choosing something that's very blurry, or very jaggy.
If they had simply made the Wii support HD TV's, the games would have looked fine.  The graphics wouldn't have actually been any better, you'd just be able to get a clearler picture on HD TV's.
 
That was nothing but laziness and budget cutting on Nintendo's part, and their excuse was they wanted the Wii to be available to everyone..  All they did was alienate those with HD TVs.  

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Some HDTVs have pretty good scalers so WIi (and SD content in general, including older systems, DVDs, etc) doesn't look bad on them. If yours doesn't, oh well, tough luck, but saying it looks like ass on HDTVs (implying all of them) is flat out false.
 
For the topic at hand, I'm with you Hailnel. Lol @ all the no gaemz talk that sprouted from this though. Still, it's GB, what do ya expect?

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carlthenimrod

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I think you're taking a lot of those comments out of context. Some are complaining that the game is just too damn expensive for what it is. 
 
Comparing it to Shadow Complex which, in my opinion, looks better(graphics/gameplay) and is only $15 fucking dollars!! $50 is asking a lot just looking from the video. Maybe it has more depth, I don't know from that video.
 
Also, of course people want an HD version if they own an HDTV. It looks better. Why would you not want to play something in the best resolution possible? It would be like buying a PC game that was constricted to 800x600 resolution. SD games don't look so pretty on HDTVs and that is why most re-releases of old games come with sprite filters and smoothing options.
 
The game looks really pretty from what I saw in the video, but those comments are completely understandable.

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I don't find it surprising, at least with Muramasa's case. For me, the main reason to play that game is to experience the art. The gameplay doesn't look too interesting and deep (at least from the video), and I guess the story has the potential to become fascinating. Because of that, why would I not want it to be in the highest resolution possible.
 
It looks beautiful, so it would be nice to show it in as much detail as possible, especially since my core reason to buy it is the visuals. That said it's pretty silly to dismiss it just because it's on the wii, asumming you own the console. It just seems like a missed opportunity. If it's the only way to play it though, then i'll end up buying it at some point. Not at full price though I imagine.

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fuzzyponken

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Edited By fuzzyponken

I'm surprised so many people actually have HDTV's. They're ridiculously expensive. I like how console gamers arguments against PC gaming usually involve PC's being expensive, when you need to buy an HDTV for 500-1000 dollars (and that's a cheap one) plus a console for atleast 300 bucks.  
I sure can't afford one, so buying an HD console feels like a bit of a waste. My Wii on the other hand is happy on my big fat SDTV, and I love it for it.

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Diamond

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@fuzzyponken said:
" I'm surprised so many people actually have HDTV's. They're ridiculously expensive. I like how console gamers arguments against PC gaming usually involve PC's being expensive, when you need to buy an HDTV for 500-1000 dollars (and that's a cheap one) plus a console for atleast 300 bucks.   I sure can't afford one, so buying an HD console feels like a bit of a waste. My Wii on the other hand is happy on my big fat SDTV, and I love it for it. "
I don't understand why people like you forget you're using a monitor for your computer.  Those things aren't free either.  HDTVs cost more, but they're usually a lot bigger too.
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fuzzyponken

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Edited By fuzzyponken

My monitor cost me like 20 bucks.

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Diamond

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Edited By Diamond
@fuzzyponken said:
My monitor cost me like 20 bucks.
Well then I excuse you, that's a hell of a good price even if it's used and not great.  People can't typically get a deal like that though, and that's why console gaming is cheaper for a lot of people.
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I can understand ppl not wanting to buy a Wii for this game since its not worth it for just this game.
Also according to several reviews the art seems to be the best part of the game so having it in HD is not a stupid thing to ask for.
Releasing a 2D game in this day and age you should expect comments like its should be a downloadable game because frankly there has been no 2D game this gen that is worth the full retail price. Even Shadow Complex that is in 3D but the gameplay is mainly on a 2D plane is not worth 60bucks even though I think its one of the best games this year.

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@Hailinel:  
 
The problem with the Wii is not the low-fi quality of its graphics and sound output.  The problem is that the Wii is a marketing scam.  I already own a GameCube.  Why would I want to buy a repackaged GameCube called Pee that makes me look like a doofus when I play it?   Had this game been released on the GameCube, I would have already owned it. 
 
While we're on the subject of low-fi: why aren't there SCANLINE filters in rereleases of old arcade fighting games?   I'd rather play these on an emulator with a scanline filter--and I've been doing so since the late 90s.
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Al3xand3r

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Edited By Al3xand3r

Because the scanlines are due to the monitors and not the rest of the hardware? If you 're such a purist, get such a monitor.
 
As for the Wii being a repackaged gc, please, get informed ignoramus. The likes of you are exactly who caused this thread, with good reason. You make yourself look like a doofus just fine with such statements and immature insults (Pee? really?), you don't need a Wii for that.
 
Anyway, I guess this thread run its course, and the sensible people around here showed up with useful or insightful comments for the most part. Now it's time for the trolls to take over it seems, so, goodbye thread, it was pretty fun while it lasted, good job Hailinel :-P

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PlipO

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Edited By PlipO

The HD blockheads will have to find something else to complaint about when the Wii HD is released next year.

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Hailinel

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Edited By Hailinel
@teh_pwnzorer said:
" @Hailinel:   The problem with the Wii is not the low-fi quality of its graphics and sound output.  The problem is that the Wii is a marketing scam.  I already own a GameCube.  Why would I want to buy a repackaged GameCube called Pee that makes me look like a doofus when I play it?   Had this game been released on the GameCube, I would have already owned it.  While we're on the subject of low-fi: why aren't there SCANLINE filters in rereleases of old arcade fighting games?   I'd rather play these on an emulator with a scanline filter--and I've been doing so since the late 90s. "
If you still think that the Wii is just a repackaged GameCube at this point, there really is no point in debating with you.  Breaking through that ignorance would be akin to cutting diamonds.
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Hailinel

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Edited By Hailinel
@Al3xand3r said:
" Because the scanlines are due to the monitors and not the rest of the hardware? If you 're such a purist, get such a monitor. As for the Wii being a repackaged gc, please, get informed ignoramus. The likes of you are exactly who caused this thread, with good reason. You make yourself look like a doofus just fine with such statements and immature insults (Pee? really?), you don't need a Wii for that.  Anyway, I guess this thread run its course, and the sensible people around here showed up with useful or insightful comments for the most part. Now it's time for the trolls to take over it seems, so, goodbye thread, it was pretty fun while it lasted, good job Hailinel :-P "
You're welcome. ;)
 
Honestly, while I expected this post to elicit some response, I didn't think that it would turn into something this big.  I went to bed last night and woke up this morning to find pretty much the last two and a half pages waiting for me.  I'm glad to see that there was at least some worthwhile discussion that came out of this.
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spankingaddict

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@oldschool said:
" I have a 360 and a HD plasma television. I also have a Wii.  My 360 collection is about 25 games and the Wii 60.  I do not find anything about the 360 graphics that make me want to play it more.  In fact, I find some games simply horrible to look at - GTA IV.  Even if they do look pretty in HD, my eyes grow weary after my brain has been dulled by a bland game.  The only games I have found that look pretty and play well have Eternal Sonata and Infinite Undiscovery.  In short, I could care less about HD and in fact, because I like the Wii controller, I would much rather a game I like (Shin Megami) would be made exclusively as a Wii game most of the time.  The exception for my tastes are car racing games - a game like Forza is great on the 360.  Even if someone wishes a game would come to the console they own, you don't see the Wii owners whine every time a new games doesn't come to the their console.   That little emo habit is confined to the HD brigade.  Even if a game is a PS3 exclusive, and I don't own one, I just accept it and remember that I will get a PS3 later in the cycle,when it is much cheaper, and build up a good collection, cheap, from the older library (just as I did with the PS2).  HD people can just do the same.  A more gracious and mature comment from them would be, "eventually when I get around to owning a Wii, I will get that game". "
wooo u have 60 wii games!!!! i can only think of about 10 good wii games out there(i do enjoy my wii wii)
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destruktive

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I have a tendency of saying stuff like "I would buy this game if it was on XBLA or PSN" but not because of HD.
 I don't even own a hd television. I own two SD though, one in fancy wood paneling to play my SNES or PS1 on.
 
and I do own all the three consoles and reason why I buy most of my games on the 360? I like the controller and XBlive.
And I don't care for the wii controller in most games. Stuff like house of the dead and Raving Rabbids is fun to play with it, but otherwise I prefer the 360 controller.
 
I do have a gamecube controller but It's not my favorite controller out there so if a game doesn't interest me enough I won't buy a game to play with it as long as it's not on a gamecube.

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notsonic

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Edited By notsonic

does muramasa not output in 480p?

if it does then i dont understand this thread.


i should also say i hate how everything thats 2d is instantly thought to be a downloadable game for no more than $15. muramasa im sure is hella longer and deeper than your typical fairly terrible xbla/psn release.

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Turtlemayor333

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Edited By Turtlemayor333

Man, I don't like this topic. Whenever I see rants defending the Wii the finger is always being pointed at "this generation" and it just makes me sad. I try to avoid it, really, but I can't help but place myself "above" the ranter who obviously wasn't around for garbage like the Sega CD or Atari Jaguar. And even if you weren't, that's fine, but at least show an understanding of the history. The only thing worse than people who are a little "over appreciative" of HD graphics are people who try to villify them as some brand new concept that's killing off the industry.
 
And why the cheap shot at Live Arcade/Playstation Network? It's the difference between a $50 game and a $15 game. Graphics are irrelvant there.
 
My personal opinion is that graphics are the least of the Wii's problem, but hey, I just thought I'd chime in. And yes, I do, in fact, have a Wii.

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AgentJ

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@carlthenimrod said:

" I think you're taking a lot of those comments out of context. Some are complaining that the game is just too damn expensive for what it is. 
 
Comparing it to Shadow Complex which, in my opinion, looks better(graphics/gameplay) and is only $15 fucking dollars!! $50 is asking a lot just looking from the video. Maybe it has more depth, I don't know from that video.
 
Also, of course people want an HD version if they own an HDTV. It looks better. Why would you not want to play something in the best resolution possible? It would be like buying a PC game that was constricted to 800x600 resolution. SD games don't look so pretty on HDTVs and that is why most re-releases of old games come with sprite filters and smoothing options. The game looks really pretty from what I saw in the video, but those comments are completely understandable. "

You honestly don't think this game is worth 50 bucks? I guess this is what 2D sidescrollers have come to... 
@notsonic said:
"

does muramasa not output in 480p?

if it does then i dont understand this thread.


i should also say i hate how everything thats 2d is instantly thought to be a downloadable game for no more than $15. muramasa im sure is hella longer and deeper than your typical fairly terrible xbla/psn release.

"
Yeah, it's really pretty sad, and the best reason in the world to hold onto a DS. 
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@HAMMERCLAW: Right off the bat...this is the kind of person the OP is talking about. 
 
Look, if Nintendo wanted to put out a shitload of money, they could easily do such and offer a STANDARD console.  Nonetheless, they wanted to push the technology being offered by home video game consoles...and not in the department of graphics.  In turn, they made the smart choice in NOT using HD graphics.  That overhead would've been WAY too much.  In turn, it's forced the hands of Microsoft and Sony to offer up their own motion control feature sets.  Here's the beauty of what Nintendo did though:  they got the head start.  They've got the leg work done.  Microsoft and Sony are still going to be working out their issues for a few years on Natal and the Harry Potter Wand, while Nintendo will be releasing their new console down the line and offer up a package that can best both companies.  While I say that, Nintendo has shown over the past three consoles that they are usually behind on tech (although they typically make up for a lack of tech in another area somehow). 
 
There is also nothing wrong with Nintendo offering a wide array of gaming for multiple age groups.  It's one of the reasons why they are the sales leader this generation, and in turn, it's pushed Microsoft and Sony to dumb down their games in order to appeal to that same audience...in the hopes that those audiences will pick their consoles up as well. 
 
Face it:  Microsoft and Sony owners love their consoles, but many of the decisions they are making...are being led by Nintendo. 
 
On the issue of graphics - art style determines good graphics.  If you are simply looking for photo-realistic, then that is a sad thing.  There are plenty of SD games that look gorgeous, but if you are unwilling to appreciate art style, then it means you are pigeon-holing something that doesn't need to be pigeon-holed...and you are the type of consumer that is holding this industry back from being truly great.
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@Branthog said:
" Mad World just seemed like a giant gimmick, too. "Holy shit! We're Nintendo and this game is so violent!". Wow. "
Except Nintendo wasn't involved with the development or publishing of that game at all. If you want to make such claims, make sure you know which parties were actually involved in the development (PlatinumGames) and publishing (Sega) of the game. That statement just makes it look like you don't know what you're talking about.
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Those complaints you mentioned were so non-descrpit, that they could have to do with MY bigger issue with the wii, THE BLOODY CONTROLLER. First of all, developers fail to capitalize on a potentially interesting control method (although I am already done with motion control,) and second of all, the game doesn't even utilize the motion control. In that case, one has to admit that the controllers for the 360 and PS3 are simply more comfortable and easier to use, and at that point it DOES become difficult to understand why one wouldn't put it on one of the other consoles.

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Hailinel

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@jukezypoo: How, specifically, are the PS3 and 360 controllers more comfortable and easy to use in the objective sense?  Muramasa can be played with either the Wii Remote/Nunchuk, the Classic Controller, or the GameCube controller.  Personally, I play it using the Wii Remote combo, as I find it both incredibly comfortable and easy to use.
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Claude

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Edited By Claude
@jukezypoo said:
" Those complaints you mentioned were so non-descrpit, that they could have to do with MY bigger issue with the wii, THE BLOODY CONTROLLER. First of all, developers fail to capitalize on a potentially interesting control method (although I am already done with motion control,) and second of all, the game doesn't even utilize the motion control. In that case, one has to admit that the controllers for the 360 and PS3 are simply more comfortable and easier to use, and at that point it DOES become difficult to understand why one wouldn't put it on one of the other consoles. "
That's your opinion, but in my opinion the Wii controller is the best controller I've ever held in my hand, hands, counting the nunchuk.
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LordAndrew

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Edited By LordAndrew
@Hailinel said:
" If you still think that the Wii is just a repackaged GameCube at this point, there really is no point in debating with you.  Breaking through that ignorance would be akin to cutting diamonds. "
There really is no point arguing with him. teh_pwnzorer somehow manages to reach a new low in immature fanboy trolling. "Pee"? Oh man, that's freaking brilliant! It's like we've gone back in time three and a half years to when people thought that was funny!
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Branthog

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Edited By Branthog
@LordAndrew said:

" @Branthog said:

" Mad World just seemed like a giant gimmick, too. "Holy shit! We're Nintendo and this game is so violent!". Wow. "
Except Nintendo wasn't involved with the development or publishing of that game at all. If you want to make such claims, make sure you know which parties were actually involved in the development (PlatinumGames) and publishing (Sega) of the game. That statement just makes it look like you don't know what you're talking about. "
You were reading too much into my comment. I wasn't suggesting that Nintendo developed or published Mad Word. They do, however, historically hold a firm grasp over what titles -- including third party -- get to come out on their consoles. You absolutely judge a console on its game library and how its promoted and this game's main point of marketing was absolutely "omg! etreme violence... on the Wii!" and that just comes across as kind of juvenile and cheap.
 
What i like about the Wii is that the graphic competition is a moot point so it's off the table. But it doesn't seem like they're really capitalizing on what remains. Their strong-point shouldn't be "we have a whacky controller!", but a mix of "we have a lot of old-school styled content and games with a lot of depth". Put out a series of intense 200 hours RPGs with incredible depth and creativity or something. Since graphics are off the table, let's drop the pretense of "motion control zomg!" and focus on story and depth and content.
 
Instead (and I know this is just my perception of it and may not be exactly how it is), it seems like it's a mix of Pop-Cap style games, tech demos, and "how whacky can we be" games. There is nothing on the technical side preventing the Wii from being just as much a "hard core" (whatever) catering system as it is a casual game / nostalgia catering machine.
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LordAndrew

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Edited By LordAndrew
@Branthog: No different than stuff on the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3. The difference is that people don't see the system as "kiddy", so they don't have a problem with it when something like that comes out for those systems.
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Branthog

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@LordAndrew said:
" @Branthog: No different than stuff on the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3. The difference is that people don't see the system as "kiddy", so they don't have a problem with it when something like that comes out for those systems. "
That may be true, but you can't blame consumers for that perception when that is exactly how Nintendo markets their system. As a kiddie/casual/parents' console. The fact that there is just so much ridiculous shovelware for it doesn't help, either. Indeed, other consoles have a lot of shovelware, too -- but I believe the ratio of it to high content on the Wii is much greater.
 
Maybe I personally am wanting the Wii to be something it really isn't going to be. I don't care about the waggle stick or graphics or zany Cuda stuff. I just want intriguing deep, long, awesome game experiences that I can't get elsewhere. The "it has to look like a movie" style of games on the other consoles makes games so expensive to produce that they're usually short and shallow. Since Nintendo can do away with that by reducing the impact of graphics int he first place, they are in the perfect spot to really push long, bang-for-the-buck, deep, addictive non pop-cap-style games that we're not seeing much of on these other consoles.
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ErgoProxy77

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Edited By ErgoProxy77

I think the main problem here is that the Wii is such a different gaming console than the Xbox 360 and PS3.  Why would anyone make a game that appeals to people who have PS3s and 360s, and put it on a system with a completely different audience?  They are trying to make the Wii something its not, and that thing is a "hardcore" console.  The Wii is for casual players, who would never play a game like Infamous or Gears of War.  I think the developers should release this game in 360 and PS3 because it is just the logical thing to do.

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Edited By Claude
@Branthog said:
" @LordAndrew said:
" @Branthog: No different than stuff on the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3. The difference is that people don't see the system as "kiddy", so they don't have a problem with it when something like that comes out for those systems. "
That may be true, but you can't blame consumers for that perception when that is exactly how Nintendo markets their system. As a kiddie/casual/parents' console. The fact that there is just so much ridiculous shovelware for it doesn't help, either. Indeed, other consoles have a lot of shovelware, too -- but I believe the ratio of it to high content on the Wii is much greater.  Maybe I personally am wanting the Wii to be something it really isn't going to be. I don't care about the waggle stick or graphics or zany Cuda stuff. I just want intriguing deep, long, awesome game experiences that I can't get elsewhere. The "it has to look like a movie" style of games on the other consoles makes games so expensive to produce that they're usually short and shallow. Since Nintendo can do away with that by reducing the impact of graphics int he first place, they are in the perfect spot to really push long, bang-for-the-buck, deep, addictive non pop-cap-style games that we're not seeing much of on these other consoles. "
I wish Nintendo would get Popcap games. Peggle with waggle, priceless.
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Edited By oldschool
@ErgoProxy77 said:
" I think the main problem here is that the Wii is such a different gaming console than the Xbox 360 and PS3.  Why would anyone make a game that appeals to people who have PS3s and 360s, and put it on a system with a completely different audience?  They are trying to make the Wii something its not, and that thing is a "hardcore" console.  The Wii is for casual players, who would never play a game like Infamous or Gears of War.  I think the developers should release this game in 360 and PS3 because it is just the logical thing to do. "
Oh gee, I have never played Infamous or Gears of War, I must be a casual gamer of no relevance  ^_^ 
 
The term you are looking for is TRADITIONAL GAMER.  That is what I am.  I play games from across the spectrum.  However, my choice is NOT Gears of War or anything like it.  In fact, I saw a long piece from Infamous and thought, "man, how quickly would I get bored with that, it is just a casual, violent game."  Like many MILLIONS of Wii owners like myself, as traditional gamers, we enjoy games like Muramasa and want it on the Wii.  I have a 360 and I can tell yo that I don't care for it being on the 360.  It would be on it for no other reason than because it can.  It was designed for the Wii.  That reason was cost.  If they wanted to make it a 360 games, it would have cost a lot more to make and been a great risk to their business model, as it wouldn't sell any more on the 360 than it would on the Wii.  If it did go straight to the 360, then people would be bitching about low production values. 
 
There is nothing logical about your view at all.
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oldschool

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Edited By oldschool
@spankingaddict said:

" @oldschool said:

" I have a 360 and a HD plasma television. I also have a Wii.  My 360 collection is about 25 games and the Wii 60.  I do not find anything about the 360 graphics that make me want to play it more.  In fact, I find some games simply horrible to look at - GTA IV.  Even if they do look pretty in HD, my eyes grow weary after my brain has been dulled by a bland game.  The only games I have found that look pretty and play well have Eternal Sonata and Infinite Undiscovery.  In short, I could care less about HD and in fact, because I like the Wii controller, I would much rather a game I like (Shin Megami) would be made exclusively as a Wii game most of the time.  The exception for my tastes are car racing games - a game like Forza is great on the 360.  Even if someone wishes a game would come to the console they own, you don't see the Wii owners whine every time a new games doesn't come to the their console.   That little emo habit is confined to the HD brigade.  Even if a game is a PS3 exclusive, and I don't own one, I just accept it and remember that I will get a PS3 later in the cycle,when it is much cheaper, and build up a good collection, cheap, from the older library (just as I did with the PS2).  HD people can just do the same.  A more gracious and mature comment from them would be, "eventually when I get around to owning a Wii, I will get that game". "

wooo u have 60 wii games!!!! i can only think of about 10 good wii games out there(i do enjoy my wii wii) "
Speaking directly from my collection, just mentioning the games I played a lot and thought were a lot of fun, then it would look like this (leaving out most multiplatform games): 
  1. Super Mario Galaxy      
  2.  Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, The 
  3.  Super Smash Bros. Brawl 
  4.  Resident Evil 4 Wii Edition  
  5. Metroid Prime 3: Corruption  
  6.  Zack & Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure 
  7.  Little King's Story 
  8.  Super Paper Mario 
  9.  No More Heroes 
  10.  WarioWare: Smooth Moves 
  11.  Mario Kart Wii 
  12.  de Blob 
  13.  Rune Factory: Frontier 
  14.  Wii Sports Resort 
  15.  Trauma Center: Second Opinion 
  16.  Wii Fit 
  17.  Mario Strikers Charged 
  18.  Wario Land: Shake It! 
  19.  MySims Kingdom  
  20. Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo's Dungeon 
  21. Trauma Center: New Blood 
  22. Wii Sports 
  23. Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles 
  24. Battalion Wars 2 
  25. Elebits 
  26. Naruto: Clash of Ninja Revolution 
  27. Animal Crossing: City Folk 
  28. Excite Truck  
  29.  Endless Ocean 
  30.  Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World 
  31.  MySims 
  32.  Link's Crossbow Training 
 
And that isn't to say I didn't enjoy the others, just that these are the ones I played the most.  Plus, there are at least another 10 games I seriously want.  Just personal taste.  There aren't even 10 Xbox 360 games I have played much - Forza2, Infinite Undiscovery, Viva Pinata & Eternal Sonata are it.) 
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LordAndrew

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@Branthog said:
" That may be true, but you can't blame consumers for that perception when that is exactly how Nintendo markets their system. "
The consumers are entirely to blame. Nintendo has released more "mature" games in the past, including on the "kiddy" GameCube, but people ignore them because it doesn't fit their perception of a "kiddy" console. There's nothing they can do to fix that, because people are idiots.