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jbrown08

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Why I Hate JRPGs, Part 1

Let me be clear before I start this post: I love JRPGs. I have been a fan ever since I was 7 and was completely baffled by Final Fantasy 1 at my grandparent's house. I was too young to really understand what was going on, but something about the roles each character played, the world exploration, and the fantastical monsters really grabbed my imagination. Also, the grindy aspects of a JRPG feed my complete and total video game addiction.

That being said, I also hate JRPGs with a passion that burns hotter than Valeria Golino's stomach in Hot Shots Part Deux (Obscure reference, I know, but I watched that movie last week). Quite a few of the things I dislike about them can be chalked up to cultural differences, in that being an american I am obviously stupid, fat, and not cosmopolitan enough to understand Japanese cultural tropes. Many of them, though, are complete and utter failings in the basic mechanics of JRPGs that have been around for a decade or more and refuse to go away.

1. The Dialogue - This has been a long running debate among many JRPG fans. Many people enjoy the awkward English, strange sentence structure, and poor word choice. Others, like me, truly hate the fact that localization teams haven't figure out, after almost 30 years, how to effectively translate Japanese stories into English without tons of inaccuracies, idiosyncrasies, and ridiculousness. It completely ruins my immersion when I hear or read a sentence that would NEVER exist in standard English conversations. Yes, there are Japanophiles that wouldn't have it any other way, but when I buy a game in English, I expect it to be in English. Periodically poor translations will result in absolute gems, like the ubiquitous "All your base," but I would give all those up to avoid the far more common quotes that just make me turn the game off in a rage, like this one:

To be fair, I think this exact sentence every time I see Jersey Shore. Is it plural or singular? I can't tell!

2. The Storytelling - Western RPGs are generally character driven stories about defeating a particular evil or saving someone dear to the main character. A great example of this is the original Dragon Age. You go from your origin story to becoming a Grey Warden who's goal is to unite the people of Ferelden, stop the Blight, kill the Archdemon, and dethrone the usurper Loghain. All easy to understand motivations, and the dialogue, story, and decisions your character makes all are generally logical within the universe of Dragon Age. The path your characters follow is focused, sensible, and always moves your forward. Even on side quests that have nothing to do with the main story, your motivations for completing that quest are clear. In contrast, Final Fantasy XIII's story is so muddled, with so many logical fallacies, stupid decisions, strange dialogue choices, and co

nclusions that are reached without and factual backing, that I constantly am forced to pause the game and walk away to give myself some time to get over the ridiculousness. For example, in an early part of the game, Sazh, Lightning, Hope, and Vanille are stranded in the Vile Peaks after their plane was shot down. Lightning decides to push on without her party members even though the logical course of action would be to stick together. The frightened, frequently tongue-tied Hope makes the decision to follow Lightning, even though Vanille has been his emotional rock and he has stuck by her side thus far. Until this point in the story, Hope has been frozen by fear and indecision, only able to push forward with the urging of Vanille. It's a small decision by the character, but when he goes against all precedents set for his character thus far, without any particular catalyst, it broke my immersion in the story. As they are leaving, Hope asks Lightning what they should do about Sazh and Vanille, to which she replies "They'll catch up eventually." They'll catch up? Really? A child and an old man will somehow find the stamina to move more quickly through the wasteland than an experienced, in shape soldier and a boy who's too scared to let himself fall behind? Again, it's small and mostly inconsequential, but it makes no sense and bugged me. Almost every JRPG story is laced with these types of logical fallacies and leaps of faith, which says to me that the writers are simply lazy and force their characters into the story they want to tell, instead of writing a story in which motivations and decisions make sense.

JRPG stories are often high concept, philosophical tales that beat you over the head with morality, questions about theology, and often examine governmental and corporate corruption. In examining all these high concepts, the game developers often forget to infuse their characters with personality and give them believable motivations. Mostly the story starts with someone being kidnapped/disappearing, and then in the process of saving that person the main character ends up saving the world for some reason, without a whole lot of plot connecting the two.

3. The Characters - Before I get into this, let me say that there are so many memorable, awesome characters from JRPGs that I kind of feel bad writing this section. Robo from Chrono Trigger, Cloud from FF7, Geno from Super Mario RPG, Yuri from Tales of Symphonia, are just a few of my favorites. That being said, characters in JRPGs are generally terrible, annoying, and mostly forgettable. I hate to pick on Final Fantasy XIII, but it is the JRPG I played most recently, so I will. Hope drove me nuts. He was the most unlikable, obnoxious character in recent memory. He harbored an unreasonable rage for Snow for killing his mother, even though he was there for every event that lead to his mother's death. He watched his mom volunteer. I repeat, VOLUNTEER, to help fight off PSICOM soldiers. He watched Snow try to save her, watched Snow fight to save her while hanging from a precipice, watched him yell in anguish as she fell to her death, and then watched Snow fall himself, even after she forced Snow to let her go. Hope watched Snow's utterly selfless attempt to save his mom, and yet blamed him for his death. It was an illogical, unbelievable motivation. Even someone as young as Hope could figure out that Snow made every attempt to save her, and would realize at some point that she volunteered instead of being coerced into service.

The mention of Hope's age leads me to another point about JRPG characters: why do they all have to be children? From Secret of Mana to Legend of Heroes to every Final Fantasy EVER, your main character is generally a fifteen to nineteen year old guy. Having recently been a fifteen to nineteen year old, and by all accounts a guy, I can say that people that age are not physically, mentally, or emotionally prepared for any of the burdens they endure in these games. What is the Japanese fascination with the child hero? Every time I play a fifteen year old that has no qualms murdering hundreds of beasts, making decisions that will affect the entire world, and having a pretty serious romance with another fifteen year old, I'm completely taken out of the game. I just sit there and ponder how this high school sophomore has enough worldly experience to decide the fate of the world, and everyone around him doesn't stop and say "Wait a second, why are we letting children do this for us?." On top of almost always being too young to be believable, these characters are most often androgynous guys with feathered, multicolored hair and excessive belts and buckles. I really don't understand the obsession with buckles. I don't agree with the hyper manliness of, say, Marcus Fenix from Gears of War either, but at least give me a strong, decisive, masculine character. This is a perfect example of a character I can believe would be part of a campaign to save the world:

as opposed to this:

By far the worst development in JRPGs is the recent advent of voice acted characters. For some reason JRPGs have a propensity to make their characters overly emotive. They voice every sigh, moan, groan, and noise of wonderment. The thousandth time Vanille made a "oh? oh. ohhhhhhhhhh." noise at something that happened in the game, I threw my controller through the window and smashed my PS3 with a sledgehammer. Not really, but I definitely had daydreams about doing that. The melodramatic emoting just destroys any tension in the scene and all investment in the characters. Characters in a JRPG emote like characters in a daytime soap, as opposed to good entertainment like Breaking Bad, in which the characters react and emote to the current situation in surprising and realistic ways. Instead of letting the player get invested in the characters and think about their emotions and motives, the JRPG writer basically takes every scene and turns it into a reddit "explain this to me like I am a 5 year old" post.

The last point I will make about characters in JRPGs is less about characters and more about differences in storytelling between east and west. In a JRPG, the idea of comic relief is most often embodied by ridiculous characters or enemies like karaoke robots in Chrono Trigger or cactrots in Final Fantasy games. JRPGs depend on their characters breaking out into stupid dances, saying something out of character, or breaking the fourth wall for a little bit of comedy. Again, this immediately breaks immersion for me. Comic relief in a game was perfectly done in Portal 2. Wheatley was the funniest, most interesting character in any game I've played ever, and even GLaDOS had her moments. It should be built into the story, and not shoe-horned in with some ridiculous moment that breaks immersion in the story.

There's so much more I could cover about the characters, their personalities, and character designs, but this post is already tl;dr so I will just end it by saying this: Japanese character design seems to be like someone wildly throwing darts at a board as hard as they can. That person hopes that they hit a bullseye, and every once in a while buries that dart so far in the center of the board that he will have a story to tell for years, but most often it ends with the dart hitting the wall, bouncing off, and hitting an innocent bystander in the eye.

This is my first entry in a series of posts about why I hate JRPGs. I will be covering many other reasons that I hate these games in the future.

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chrissedoff

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@Hailinel: Well, the thing that is similar about all of those games is they all have pretentious, melodramatic, convoluted plots with unnatural dialogue, and annoying anime/Jpop characters. Oh, and also they have awful character designs that seem straight out of some futuristic Cirque du Soleil show. Actually, maybe not every single one of them, now that I think about it. Just, I don't know, ninety percent of them, I guess. Where I differ with DespoticDave is that I think the gameplay is also very lazily designed and boring. Especially in Xenogears, what with its combat system which they literally couldn't be bothered to finish.

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sanchopanza

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@Hailinel said:

There was this little independent movie made back in the 1970s called Star Wars. It was about a farmboy on a desert planet that learns he has magical powers, joins up with a ragtag group, saves a princess, and then destroys the enemy space fortress.

What? Mark Hamill was in his mid 20s back then, would not call that being a boy.

Stop making shit up to defend your stupid games!!!

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MikkaQ

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@Hailinel said:

@MikkaQ said:

@Hailinel: JRPGs main problem is that the decisions characters make rarely make any sense, and the games constantly contrive reasons for you to keep going on your quest to save the world despite your insanely young age and large amounts of inexperience. Cohesion is lost from purely bad writing.

Ultimately good stories in games are rare as shit, and pretty much the only genre that deals with character development and storytelling genuinely well, and with any sense of consistency is adventure games. It's too bad they sacrifice engaging gameplay to get there.

But can you give some examples of this? The teenage savior of the world is a stereotype of the genre, but as noted, the perception of youth in Japanese media and culture is different from as it exists in the west. Also, when you make arguments that can be summed up as "Oh, this makes no sense. How can this callow youth save the world?", you tend to forget that this isn't a trope limited to JRPGs or Japan in general. There was this little independent movie made back in the 1970s called Star Wars. It was about a farmboy on a desert planet that learns he has magical powers, joins up with a ragtag group, saves a princess, and then destroys the enemy space fortress.

I don't think you can just chalk it up to cultural differences, not anymore. There is too much influence crossing over between Japanese games and western games to be able to claim that anymore. Globalization basically put all games on one standard of quality and what worked for some in the past doesn't necessarily fly now. Besides, there are other Japanese games that have wildly different plots than a typical JRPG story, so it's not like they're unable to do so. Metal Gear Solid could have been a JRPG, running around the compound, getting into random encounters, having boss fights and lots and lots of dialogue. Not saying that's what should have happened, just saying that JRPGs have more potential than what is being used. Even something like Earthbound took the same plot of youths saving the world and actually did something interesting with it.

Besides, the only truly great Star Wars movie was Empire, and even that was about tempering expectations and showing the audience that Luke isn't some invincible terminator making his way through the movie like Bruce Willis, that he is just a dumb farm boy and that his mistakes can fuck over him and his friends.

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Hailinel

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@chrissedoff said:

@Hailinel: Well, the thing that is similar about all of those games is they all have pretentious, melodramatic, convoluted plots with unnatural dialogue, and annoying anime/Jpop characters. Oh, and also they have awful character designs that seem straight out of some futuristic Cirque du Soleil show. Actually, maybe not every single one of them, now that I think about it. Just, I don't know, ninety percent of them, I guess. Where I differ with DespoticDave is that I think the gameplay is also very lazily designed and boring. Especially in Xenogears, what with its combat system which they literally couldn't be bothered to finish.

BZZT. I'm sorry, the judges cannot accept that answer. Your response is too general and does not cite examples from any of the games listed. Please try again.

@sanchopanza said:

@Hailinel said:

There was this little independent movie made back in the 1970s called Star Wars. It was about a farmboy on a desert planet that learns he has magical powers, joins up with a ragtag group, saves a princess, and then destroys the enemy space fortress.

What? Mark Hamill was in his mid 20s back then, would not call that being a boy.

Stop making shit up to defend your stupid games!!!

Hamill was in his mid-twenties. His character, Luke Skywalker, wasn't. He was on a farm living a naive existence until he had a chance encounter with a couple of droids and an old hermit.

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chrissedoff

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@Hailinel: Why don't you explain what makes each of them so unique. That would be fun.

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Turambar

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@MikkaQ said:

@Hailinel said:

@MikkaQ said:

@Hailinel: JRPGs main problem is that the decisions characters make rarely make any sense, and the games constantly contrive reasons for you to keep going on your quest to save the world despite your insanely young age and large amounts of inexperience. Cohesion is lost from purely bad writing.

Ultimately good stories in games are rare as shit, and pretty much the only genre that deals with character development and storytelling genuinely well, and with any sense of consistency is adventure games. It's too bad they sacrifice engaging gameplay to get there.

But can you give some examples of this? The teenage savior of the world is a stereotype of the genre, but as @Turambar noted, the perception of youth in Japanese media and culture is different from as it exists in the west. Also, when you make arguments that can be summed up as "Oh, this makes no sense. How can this callow youth save the world?", you tend to forget that this isn't a trope limited to JRPGs or Japan in general. There was this little independent movie made back in the 1970s called Star Wars. It was about a farmboy on a desert planet that learns he has magical powers, joins up with a ragtag group, saves a princess, and then destroys the enemy space fortress.

I don't think you can just chalk it up to cultural differences, not anymore. There is too much influence crossing over between Japanese games and western games to be able to claim that anymore. Globalization basically put all games on one standard of quality and what worked for some in the past doesn't necessarily fly now. Besides, there are other Japanese games that have wildly different plots than a typical JRPG story, so it's not like they're unable to do so. Metal Gear Solid could have been a JRPG, running around the compound, getting into random encounters, having boss fights and lots and lots of dialogue. Not saying that's what should have happened, just saying that JRPGs have more potential than what is being used. Even something like Earthbound took the same plot of youths saving the world and actually did something interesting with it.

Besides, the only truly great Star Wars movie was Empire, and even that was about tempering expectations and showing the audience that Luke isn't some invincible terminator making his way through the movie like Bruce Willis, that he is just a dumb farm boy and that his mistakes can fuck over him and his friends.

No, you can still very much chalk it up to cultural differences.  Media reflects heavily on the culture of their creators and to claim that globalization puts all games on one standard devoid of their cultural nuances is absurd.  An idealization of the potential of childhood can be found across all forms of media in Japan (and East Asian countries in general).  In fact, if you want to talk globalization, wouldn't that require both eastern and western cultural nuances to give and take and find middle ground instead of the "western sensibilities are the only right sensibilities" tone that your opinion, purposefully or not, is taking?
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chrissedoff

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@Hailinel: Skywalker was an adult. Probably on the older side of college age, given that he was trying to get his uncle to let him go to the academy, where all of his friends had gone. Presumably a while ago, since they're fully fledged pilots by the time the Rebel Alliance launch their attack on the Death Star.

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chrissedoff

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@Turambar said:

No, you can still very much chalk it up to cultural differences. Media reflects heavily on the culture of their creators and to claim that globalization puts all games on one standard devoid of their cultural nuances is absurd. An idealization of the potential of childhood can be found across all forms of media in Japan (and East Asian countries in general). In fact, if you want to talk globalization, wouldn't that require both eastern and western cultural nuances to give and take and find middle ground instead of the "western sensibilities are the only right sensibilities" tone that your opinion, purposefully or not, is taking?

So basically what you're saying is, "garbage in, garbage out", right?

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PeasantAbuse

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@CaLe said:

Stop targeting this audience, please!
Stop targeting this audience, please!

This sums up my main problem with a lot (not all) of JRPGs. I'm not really sure how anyone could argue that this shit isn't creepy.

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@DeF: Yeah, I'm often annoyed by constant allusions to the FF series and why JRPGs suck. I've played several FF games and never liked them all that much, but I like a lot of other series, like Tales and MegaTen. Meh. Haters gonna hate, I guess.

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Really? You expect to downplay my (and many others) viewpoints on JRPG's by getting me to list off issues with a random assortment of games? This is your counterpoint? Instead of addressing the issues I have with JRPG's, and give me a valid reason why those elements work; you decide that it would be easier to somehow disprove my opinion by questioning how many of these games I have played and what's wrong with them. Would it make any difference to you if I managed to write them all off? I would say, no.

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Hailinel

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@MikkaQ said:

@Hailinel said:

@MikkaQ said:

@Hailinel: JRPGs main problem is that the decisions characters make rarely make any sense, and the games constantly contrive reasons for you to keep going on your quest to save the world despite your insanely young age and large amounts of inexperience. Cohesion is lost from purely bad writing.

Ultimately good stories in games are rare as shit, and pretty much the only genre that deals with character development and storytelling genuinely well, and with any sense of consistency is adventure games. It's too bad they sacrifice engaging gameplay to get there.

But can you give some examples of this? The teenage savior of the world is a stereotype of the genre, but as noted, the perception of youth in Japanese media and culture is different from as it exists in the west. Also, when you make arguments that can be summed up as "Oh, this makes no sense. How can this callow youth save the world?", you tend to forget that this isn't a trope limited to JRPGs or Japan in general. There was this little independent movie made back in the 1970s called Star Wars. It was about a farmboy on a desert planet that learns he has magical powers, joins up with a ragtag group, saves a princess, and then destroys the enemy space fortress.

I don't think you can just chalk it up to cultural differences, not anymore. There is too much influence crossing over between Japanese games and western games to be able to claim that anymore. Globalization basically put all games on one standard of quality and what worked for some in the past doesn't necessarily fly now. Besides, there are other Japanese games that have wildly different plots than a typical JRPG story, so it's not like they're unable to do so. Metal Gear Solid could have been a JRPG, running around the compound, getting into random encounters, having boss fights and lots and lots of dialogue. Not saying that's what should have happened, just saying that JRPGs have more potential than what is being used. Even something like Earthbound took the same plot of youths saving the world and actually did something interesting with it.

Besides, the only truly great Star Wars movie was Empire, and even that was about tempering expectations and showing the audience that Luke isn't some invincible terminator making his way through the movie like Bruce Willis, that he is just a dumb farm boy and that his mistakes can fuck over him and his friends.

Cultural differences in stories are always going to exist, particularly when you target a game at a specific audience. Look at Atlus's Persona games, for example. Those are games that were originally designed specifically for a Japanese audience. Most of them (Eternal Punishment being the lone exception) are about Japanese high school students. There's a lot of cultural specificity in those games. The reason that they work as well as they do in their western releases is because Atlus USA does a bang-up job in the localization process. They remain as faithful as they can to the original Japanese story and characters while writing dialogue that's both sensible and coherent for an American not well-versed in Japanese custom to understand.

The problem with a lot of JRPG stories and characters isn't that they're bad; it's that the localizations often don't do them justice. (I mean, look at the SNES Chrono Trigger localization.) Even the best localizations, however, aren't perfect. When a character is speaking with, say, an Osaka dialect, which has its own stereotypes within Japan, the localization team needs to account for that somehow; a common way that this is done is by substituting an American regional accent, but even then, it's not necessarily going to be a perfect match. The same goes for humor; even the simplest children's jokes in Japan are different from the common knock-knock jokes of the west. And if a game has a heavy emphasis on Japanese history, mythology or culture that anyone of the game's target age should have at least a basic knowledge of, how do you get that across to an audience that isn't as familiar with those concepts?

@chrissedoff said:

@Hailinel: Why don't you explain what makes each of them so unique. That would be fun.

Well, you seemed so sure of yourself. I directed the question toward you. Are you sure you don't want to answer? I mean, you seemed absolutely certain that you were correct. I think it's only fair that I give you a chance to expound on that answer in detail before I step in and make any comments on your behalf.

I mean, you did provide 90% statistic, and round numbers like that are so convincing when they aren't paired with facts to back them up, aren't they?

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MikkaQ

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@Turambar: It's not really that absurd if you think about it. Cinema is judged on an international level and games are getting there. It's not an east v. west thing, and it's not about one culture dominating over another. It is as you say a middle ground. People tend to look for plausibility (not realism), so if you are going to make your game about youth, or children, why not have them doing something those sorts of children do? Why not have a JRPG adventure about a fantastical trek though a backyard forest, or some perilous journey to the candy store? It doesn't all have to be world-sweeping epics about stopping some ancient evil, or evil king or what have you.

One of my favorite movies is My Neighbor Totoro because even though it's centered on children and has many fantastical elements, they still made sure to have children do things and react as children do. It was clearly made to evoke a sense of nostalgia about playing outside during childhood, but it also had the emotional side of the sick mother, which added dimensionality. Layer on the fantasy world of Totoro and you have a winner of a movie that blends it's elements masterfully. Now imagine if it were up to the kids in the movie to journey with Totoro to save the world from world-eating demon located on the other side of the ocean, it would make no sense, despite being just as realistic, it would have no sense of plausibility and that's what I see when I play a lot of JRPGs.

@Hailinel: The replies are coming in faster then I can type back, so I'm gonna refer up to this post about Totoro. They made that movie really appealing to children and adults of many cultures. There are some things that are culturally consistent across first-world nations, the general experiences of childhood tend to be among them. This is why it's weird to see so many missteps when dealing with young casts of characters. They're just throwing them into the wrong kinds of situations, that few could really relate to. Westerners find it easier to believe a space marine will save the planet from aliens than some kids. Likewise, I don't need a fun cutesy adventure with the Doom-guy.

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Hailinel

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@chrissedoff said:

@Hailinel: Skywalker was an adult. Probably on the older side of college age, given that he was trying to get his uncle to let him go to the academy, where all of his friends had gone. Presumably a while ago, since they're fully fledged pilots by the time the Rebel Alliance launch their attack on the Death Star.

And yet, he was still pretty callow.

@DespoticDave said:

Really? You expect to downplay my (and many others) viewpoints on JRPG's by getting me to list off issues with a random assortment of games? This is your counterpoint? Instead of addressing the issues I have with JRPG's, and give me a valid reason why those elements work; you decide that it would be easier to somehow disprove my opinion by questioning how many of these games I have played and what's wrong with them. Would it make any difference to you if I managed to write them all off? I would say, no.

No, I expect you to support and verify your opinion that the genre as a whole is as you described by telling me how your viewpoint is applicable to the games I listed. Surely, if you've played enough JRPGs, this wouldn't be a problem, would it?

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chrissedoff

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@Hailinel: So basically you are asking the person who is saying that these games are all alike to give you specific and detailed examples from each individual game about...how they're the same? Because that makes sense, I guess?

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@chrissedoff said:

@Hailinel: Why don't you explain what makes each of them so unique. That would be fun.

Really, the burden of proof is on you.

I'd love to hear you justify where the" pretentious, melodramatic, convoluted plots with unnatural dialogue, and annoying anime/Jpop characters." are in Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne. Sorry, but no one is going to prove a negative for you. That is not how logic works.

@chrissedoff said:

@Hailinel: So basically you are asking the person who is saying that these games are all alike to give you specific and detailed examples from each individual game about...how they're the same? Because that makes sense, I guess?

Yep. Shouldn't be too hard, if you're not bullshitting. Tell us about the story elements all of these games share.

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@Cathryn said:

@DeF: Yeah, I'm often annoyed by constant allusions to the FF series and why JRPGs suck. I've played several FF games and never liked them all that much, but I like a lot of other series, like Tales and MegaTen. Meh. Haters gonna hate, I guess.

Yeh? Well I'm fucking annoyed by FF games being treated like the gold standard by the media (and fans) and drowning out other games in a sea of shit. Mid 2000s were the worst, any JRPG that did not start with the word 'Final' would get crapped on by critics, but FF games somehow get a free pass '9/10, gold star' even though they have the same retarded tropes (but worse!). Tactics Ogre was my GOTY by a long way (not strictly a JRPG but whatever) and I think most people don't know that its a game, got good reviews though at least.

Its not haters hating, like it or not, for most people FF is the poster child for the JRPG.

@mutha3 said:

Sorry, but no one is going to prove a negative for you. That is not how logic works.

I'm sorry but...waaaat? Did you just walk out of a remedial critical thinking class? A) He is not asking for proof of anything, he is asking for an explanation. And B) Where is the negative?

Prove to me that santa does not exist (this in example of trying to prove a negative). Give examples of similarities in games XY, or example of annoying character (neither of these are examples of trying to prove a negative). Before using fancy terms, next time make sure you know what you are talking about.

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Hailinel

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@MikkaQ said:

@Turambar: It's not really that absurd if you think about it. Cinema is judged on an international level and games are getting there. It's not an east v. west thing, and it's not about one culture dominating over another. It is as you say a middle ground. People tend to look for plausibility (not realism), so if you are going to make your game about youth, or children, why not have them doing something those sorts of children do? Why not have a JRPG adventure about a fantastical trek though a backyard forest, or some perilous journey to the candy store? It doesn't all have to be world-sweeping epics about stopping some ancient evil, or evil king or what have you.

One of my favorite movies is My Neighbor Totoro because even though it's centered on children and has many fantastical elements, they still made sure to have children do things and react as children do. It was clearly made to evoke a sense of nostalgia about playing outside during childhood, but it also had the emotional side of the sick mother, which added dimensionality. Layer on the fantasy world of Totoro and you have a winner of a movie that blends it's elements masterfully. Now imagine if it were up to the kids in the movie to journey with Totoro to save the world from world-eating demon located on the other side of the ocean, it would make no sense, despite being just as realistic, it would have no sense of plausibility and that's what I see when I play a lot of JRPGs.

Cinema also recognizes the different storytelling methods and histories of the cultures that they are derived from. There is no standard template for what makes a good cinematic story. And even within specific cultures, there are vast differences in storytelling emphasis and methodology. And, as long as we're on the subject of Japan's relationship to the west, a number of well-respected American directors such as Spielberg, Scorsese have all cited Akira Kurosawa as one of their inspirations in the industry. It's also why you can pair Studio Ghibli's My Neighbor Totoro and Pixar's Toy Story together and call them both excellent films. They both do very different things in appealing to children and adults alike.

Naturally, there are some films that don't cross that cultural boundary as well as others. There are also films that are just plain bad, no matter what cultural perspective they're viewed from. But to say that films have become this globalized, homogenized art form is an absurdity. In a way, we're lucky that we were able to see a proper western release of Totoro and Miyazaki's other films after a previous western distributor infuriated him with their edits to the western release of Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind.

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@sanchopanza said:

@Cathryn said:

@DeF: Yeah, I'm often annoyed by constant allusions to the FF series and why JRPGs suck. I've played several FF games and never liked them all that much, but I like a lot of other series, like Tales and MegaTen. Meh. Haters gonna hate, I guess.

Yeh? Well I'm fucking annoyed by FF games being treated like the gold standard by the media (and fans) and drowning out other games in a sea of shit. Mid 2000s were the worst, any JRPG that did not start with the word 'Final' would get crapped on by critics, but FF games somehow get a free pass '9/10, gold star' even though they have the same retarded tropes (but worse!). Tactics Ogre was my GOTY by a long way (not strictly a JRPG but whatever) and I think most people don't know that its a game, got good reviews though at least.

Its not haters hating, like it or not, for most people FF is the poster child for the JRPG.

It has good reason to be the western poster child. It was, for many years, the only JRPG series to be released in the west with any sort of regularity, and this notoriety only increased with the marketing blitz and financial success of Final Fantasy VII, which Sony did everything they could to support because they really wanted that game to succeed on the PlayStation. That doesn't mean that it should necessarily remain the poster child or be held as the gold standard; the fault of that notion lies purely with the western gaming media and fans that play very few games in the genre outside of the Final Fantasy series.

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Hey, JRPG fans: just admit to yourselves that the games you like are cheesy, plodding, pretentious and melodramatic, and you LIKE THEM THAT WAY. We can all respect that. But don't try to insult everyone's intelligence by saying there's more to the games than we realize. There isn't!

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@Hailinel said:

the fault of that notion lies purely with the western gaming media and fans that play very few games in the genre outside of the Final Fantasy series.

Agree with you there buddy, wish more people knew about Phantasy Star outside of that online thing :'(

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@chrissedoff said:

@Turambar said:

No, you can still very much chalk it up to cultural differences. Media reflects heavily on the culture of their creators and to claim that globalization puts all games on one standard devoid of their cultural nuances is absurd. An idealization of the potential of childhood can be found across all forms of media in Japan (and East Asian countries in general). In fact, if you want to talk globalization, wouldn't that require both eastern and western cultural nuances to give and take and find middle ground instead of the "western sensibilities are the only right sensibilities" tone that your opinion, purposefully or not, is taking?

So basically what you're saying is, "garbage in, garbage out", right?

Why yes, I certainly do find many western games to be garbage because of the equally garbage dudebro fps eager mentality that goes into designing them.
 
@MikkaQ said:

@Turambar: It's not really that absurd if you think about it. Cinema is judged on an international level and games are getting there. It's not an east v. west thing, and it's not about one culture dominating over another. It is as you say a middle ground. People tend to look for plausibility (not realism), so if you are going to make your game about youth, or children, why not have them doing something those sorts of children do? Why not have a JRPG adventure about a fantastical trek though a backyard forest, or some perilous journey to the candy store? It doesn't all have to be world-sweeping epics about stopping some ancient evil, or evil king or what have you.

One of my favorite movies is My Neighbor Totoro because even though it's centered on children and has many fantastical elements, they still made sure to have children do things and react as children do. It was clearly made to evoke a sense of nostalgia about playing outside during childhood, but it also had the emotional side of the sick mother, which added dimensionality. Layer on the fantasy world of Totoro and you have a winner of a movie that blends it's elements masterfully. Now imagine if it were up to the kids in the movie to journey with Totoro to save the world from world-eating demon located on the other side of the ocean, it would make no sense, despite being just as realistic, it would have no sense of plausibility and that's what I see when I play a lot of JRPGs.

What do you think the entire Pokemon series is about if not a game inspired by the childhood exercise of bug catching?  (the creator himself stated as much in a Times article back when the whole franchise just hit US shores)   What you want out of the genre is there aplenty.  What you do not like about the genre is also there aplenty.  Both are products of cultural nuances in some way shape or form, and claiming one is wrong because you dislike it is a poor way to approach things.  Also I doubt there is an agreed upon international standard by which films are judged outside of the more technical aspects of it all.  But more culturally nuanced things like character depiction?  I don't believe there is any baseline for that.  
 
Also you say that you like a movie like My Neighbor Totoro.  How about Princess Mononoke or Nausica of the Valley of Wind, both also Ghibli movies?  Both have young characters taking on far more fantastical and large roles.
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Hailinel

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@chrissedoff: I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do better than that. It's fine to have visual aids, but if you can't explain your reasoning in any detail, then you're doing little to validate your opinion.

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Etnos

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@AlexW00d said:

@Fallen189 said:

The only problem is that you sound horrifically bias towards Western games, to the point where it makes your essay unreadable

No he doesn't. And even if you do think he is biased, he has provided well written arguments for all his points, so it's not like he's pulling it out of his ass.

@jbrown08: I agree with you on all of your points, and whilst there are a lot more things I find wrong with the genre, this is one of the most well written blogs I have ever seen on the subject. Now I warn you, there are a lot of idiots who will defend anything Japanese to the death on these forums, and they will probably show up here, so just ignore them, and keep writing more stuff.

Good old Western thinking! - We are right!, we have logic!!, There is no such thing as cultural/historical (other than our own) context and if you believe so, it's because you are an idiot. -

Said so, I'm not a JRPG fanatic thou I enjoy Persona, Disgea and Tatics Ogre. Anyways if you ever travel to Japan you would understand, they are a different (western mind exploding concept unable to process) not weird, not crazy, not freaky... just different.

- If you want to get into professional "video game" writing I would advise to stop using "Hate" overall sounds like a childish statement, It would be also nice to take in count the fact not everything is USA and allies, there are other places in the word with different cultures and so on.. Just saying, is not like you need to like them, but it is a more constructive approach if you at least trying to understand/contextualize why such differences exist.

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@Turambar said:

@chrissedoff said:

@Turambar said:

No, you can still very much chalk it up to cultural differences. Media reflects heavily on the culture of their creators and to claim that globalization puts all games on one standard devoid of their cultural nuances is absurd. An idealization of the potential of childhood can be found across all forms of media in Japan (and East Asian countries in general). In fact, if you want to talk globalization, wouldn't that require both eastern and western cultural nuances to give and take and find middle ground instead of the "western sensibilities are the only right sensibilities" tone that your opinion, purposefully or not, is taking?

So basically what you're saying is, "garbage in, garbage out", right?

Why yes, I certainly do find many western games to be garbage because of the equally garbage dudebro fps eager mentality that goes into designing them.

So we...agree...? I don't know, I can't help but feel like there is some underlying hostility in your remarks.

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@Hailinel said:

@chrissedoff: I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do better than that. It's fine to have visual aids, but if you can't explain your reasoning in any detail, then you're doing little to validate your opinion.

"I'm sorry, but if you're going to go to the trouble of meeting my stupid demands, I'm just going to have to move the goalposts until I win."

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@chrissedoff said:

@Hailinel: Skywalker was an adult. Probably on the older side of college age, given that he was trying to get his uncle to let him go to the academy, where all of his friends had gone. Presumably a while ago, since they're fully fledged pilots by the time the Rebel Alliance launch their attack on the Death Star.

But the movie has us approach his character as a young kid, particularly with how Han addresses him.  He's doesn't talk down to him like he is a child, but his inexperience with the world and thus Han's skepticism of any of his ideals is based around his lack of age.  That is the exact same way many pieces of Japanese media addresses kids in their works.  The adults around them doubt and are skeptical of them, but they are not lorded over and talked down towards in those settings. 
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@chrissedoff said:

@Hailinel said:

@chrissedoff: I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do better than that. It's fine to have visual aids, but if you can't explain your reasoning in any detail, then you're doing little to validate your opinion.

"I'm sorry, but if you're going to go to the trouble of meeting my stupid demands, I'm just going to have to move the goalposts until I win."

The goalposts are in the same place. You just keep coming up short. Also, you failed to cite examples from all of the games I listed, like I originally asked, so in that sense, you still haven't given me a proper answer.

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Turambar

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@chrissedoff said:

@Turambar said:

@chrissedoff said:

@Turambar said:

No, you can still very much chalk it up to cultural differences. Media reflects heavily on the culture of their creators and to claim that globalization puts all games on one standard devoid of their cultural nuances is absurd. An idealization of the potential of childhood can be found across all forms of media in Japan (and East Asian countries in general). In fact, if you want to talk globalization, wouldn't that require both eastern and western cultural nuances to give and take and find middle ground instead of the "western sensibilities are the only right sensibilities" tone that your opinion, purposefully or not, is taking?

So basically what you're saying is, "garbage in, garbage out", right?

Why yes, I certainly do find many western games to be garbage because of the equally garbage dudebro fps eager mentality that goes into designing them.

So we...agree...? I don't know, I can't help but feel like there is some underlying hostility in your remarks.

Yes, we do agree that that games are products of the cultural nuances they are made in.  No, I do not agree that the Japanese attitude towards childhood is garbage and would be more than eager to call you an idiot for your opinion.
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@chrissedoff: one doesn't even need to have played the games. there's this thing on this website called the wiki where you can look up information like that in a heartbeat :)

I support the claim that JRPGs offer a wider variety in setting and style than RPGs made in the west where - with a few exceptions (Alpha Protocol, Deus Ex, Shadowrun, Jade Empire, Vampire: the Masquerade and the Fallout series come to mind) - most games are either Star Wars-ish "save the galaxy with aliens and lasers" (Mass Effect, KOTOR [literally SW^^]) or Lord of the Rings-ish "medieval fantasy with dragons/magic/swords" (Dragon Age, The Witcher, Reckoning, Elder Scrolls, Fable). There are tons of JRPGs that do the same FF-spiel but I have a far easier time naming extremely different games from that side of the fence: Infinite Space, Earthbound, The World Ends With You, Metal Saga, Terranigma, SMT: Nocturne, Resonance of Fate, Persona4, Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story, Dark Souls, Professor Layton's London Life, Opoona,Fragile Dreams: Farewell Ruins of the Moon, Robotrek, Xenoblade Chronicles ....

edit: I added some more WRPG exceptions after thinking a little longer. the point still stands that I had to think quite a while to find more examples while the others came easily. and I'm definitely not some fanatic JRPG-expert.

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@Turambar: But it's NOT a game about bug catching. It's still about kids stopping terrorists or criminal organisations with fantasy creatures. The plotlessness of pokemon games gets a pass from me because it's clear the developers don't even try. It's just not an important part of pokemon, the trading, raising, breeding and fighting is the focus. What I'm saying about international standards still holds. As you mentioned, it's mainly for technical reasons. Well screenwriting isn't a free-form art. There are rules for everything, including story. That's why it IS possible to call a story objectively poor. Like I said, JRPGs are barely ever plausible, so I can't suspend my disbelief that well, and everything falls apart for me. There's not enough cohesion to the world, and magical properties only seem to serve the plot and not the world, so they seem all ginned up and false. It's just kinda... sloppy storytelling that you see in a lot of JRPGs and it's problematic.

People ask why such high expectations for story are levvied on JRPGs but that's because they portray themselves as such. The story is a major focus of most JRPGs, since that kind of gameplay can only get you so far. For pokemon to reduce it's focus on story and still be successful it had to have a completely different RPG mechanic than any other games of the time, in Pokemon's case they made it a really addictive matter of catchin' them all. Really for me the problem is for such a story focused genre, the story telling is super sloppy.

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@sanchopanza said:

@mutha3 said:

Sorry, but no one is going to prove a negative for you. That is not how logic works.

I'm sorry but...waaaat? Did you just walk out of a remedial critical thinking class? A) He is not asking for proof of anything, he is asking for an explanation.

"There are pretentious, melodramatic, convoluted plots with unnatural dialogue, and annoying anime/Jpop characters. In the following list of games:"

  • Final Fantasy XIII
  • Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
  • Metal Saga
  • SaGa Frontier
  • Nier
  • Growlanser: Heritage of War
  • Baroque
  • Dragon Quest IX: Defenders of the Starry Skies
  • Eternal Sonata
  • Lost Odyssey
  • Xenogrears
  • Valkyrie Profile

He is being asked to supply this with examples/evidence and dodging it by asking others to prove to him that they do NOT have those elements. Sounds like asking someone to prove a negative to me. Try reading the full conversation to get proper context.

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WatanabeKazuma

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For some reason JRPGs have a propensity to make their characters overly emotive. They voice every sigh, moan, groan, and noise of wonderment. The thousandth time Vanille made a "oh? oh. ohhhhhhhhhh." noise at something that happened in the game, I threw my controller through the window and smashed my PS3 with a sledgehammer. Not really, but I definitely had daydreams about doing that. The melodramatic emoting

Hm, melodramatic? You mean like you're doing in that paragraph? I'd use the relevant Arrested Development quote, but I digress...

@PeasantAbuse said:

@CaLe said:

Stop targeting this audience, please!
Stop targeting this audience, please!

This sums up my main problem with a lot (not all) of JRPGs. I'm not really sure how anyone could argue that this shit isn't creepy.

...And that's the problem with the argument, its based heavily on generalizations. The OP made a solid post in so much that its provoked some good discussion, but I hope that if the second part of this blog in indeed forthcoming, that it actually draws on some recent examples. As it stands, this reads like you're re-affirming a long-standing stereotype that's no longer applicable. I don't mind people dismissing the genre, so long as they're informed about the subject matter, and not just lazily regurgitating whats banded about on message boards. The above post is a case in point.

Oh, and Tetsuya Nomura doesn't do character design for the entirety of the genre, people should stop acting as though he does.

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beforet

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Can't we all juuust looove each other?

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DespoticDave

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@DespoticDave said:

Why I don't like JRPG's? Pretentious, melodramatic, convoluted plots with unnatural dialogue, and annoying anime/Jpop characters. If I had to listen to one more JRPG character have some bullshit philosophical, psychobabble inner monologue while looking at the sky, and holding their hands over their heart, I think I'll puke. Not to mention the awful character designs that seem straight out of some futuristic Cirque du Soleil show. Keep the gameplay and lose everything else.

I just quoted my original post. Was I blunt? Yes. Did I say in that post, and future posts in this thread, that all JRPG's were like this and it was absolute? No. You got annoyed with me, and now you want me to give some sort of exposition on a bunch of random games you may have played; all so that my opinion on JRPG tropes in general can be discarded since my experience with JRPG's don't live up to your lofty JRPG experience. Ridiculous. I have played many JRPG's throughout the years and have enjoyed many of them. Unfortunately, this is the opinion I have developed due to my interaction with many of them. Again, I said in a previous post, they are not all egregious, and the ones that are less so I tend to enjoy much more. Ring of Red, Chrono Trigger, Dark Cloud, Legend of Mana, and blah blah blah...does it really matter if I list off all of them? If you really don't like my opinion than address it directly by defending those tropes, or let me know of games that I may not have played that break from that mold. I know they exist, but they can be hard to find at times. Hell, I have many issues with WRPG's as well. If you were to list off all the issues you had with WRPG's, I wouldn't call your experience with them into order; I would simply try and figure out what bothers you exactly about them, and what games I could recommend that you might enjoy. Alright, I don't have all night for this, I gotta head out to Planet Fitness before it closes!

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WatanabeKazuma

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@Beforet said:

Can't we all juuust looove each other?

Feelings of love are just a temporary lapse in judgment. Like a mental illness.

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@mutha3: How is asking for some unique aspects in some games trying to prove a negative? Read the rest of my post, might enlighten you. What kind of a person sees a game discussion and starts some amateur philosophy? If you want, I can lay down some David Hume shit on you and say you can't prove a positive either, don't walk in here trying to sound all clever.

Besides, dude gave some examples anyway.

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ShadyPingu

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Man, I'm glad I offered my one post and got the hell out.

Behold what thou hast wrought, OP!

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Man I feel kinda weird that I can enjoy both JRPGS ... RPGs made by japanese developers and RPGs by western developers because acording to the internet you can't , and for every stereotype trope you can find in a Japanese RPG there's a Shin Megami Tensei game to counter it.

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This thread is hilarious. People criticising the OP for discussing tropes of the genre. Guess what, they're tropes for a reason. Exceptions don't supply an effective counter-argument (they do provide easy ammunition for itchy trigger fingers however). I like how XIII-2 has caused this chasm in the community over the last week.

Also...I Iike good JRPG's and hate FFXIII...come at me.

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PeasantAbuse

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@AngelN7 said:

Man I feel kinda weird that I can enjoy both JRPGS ... RPGs made by japanese developers and RPGs by western developers because acording to the internet you can't , and for every stereotype trope you can find in a Japanese RPG there's a Shin Megami Tensei game to counter it.

Pick a side you reasonable piece of shit.

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Dagbiker

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You have to remember that JRPGs sell in Japan, and thats the audience they are developing for.

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@sanchopanza said:

@mutha3: How is asking for some unique aspects in some games trying to prove a negative?.

uh

I'm pretty sure I said people responding to him are not going to waste their time going down the road of proving a negative. He's the one making the statement here(Let me directly quote it for you"Well, the thing that is similar about all of those games is they all have pretentious, melodramatic, convoluted plots with unnatural dialogue, and annoying anime/Jpop characters"), its not up to us to disprove him. He was being asked to back up what he said, and he turned it around with "well how about you tell me whats so unique about them, HUH????"

Nah, son. That's not how it works. YOU said they were filled with that stuff, that means YOU are supposed to back up what you said.

Besides, dude gave some examples anyway.

He finally posted a bunch of pictures of anime characters with no context AFTER he was probed for a full page.

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AngelN7

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@PeasantAbuse: European-made RPGs! ...

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@mutha3 said:


Besides, dude gave some examples anyway.

He finally posted a bunch of pictures of anime characters with no context AFTER he was probed for a full page.

I think those were even 2 different posters.

What I believe happened here is that some people feel one group is trying to argue that those tropes don't "exist" which isn't the case. They do, we all know that and it's mostly terrible. What the "defense force" is trying to accomplish is to make clear that if you look past the stereotype-laden surface you find a ton of games with none or very few of the elements people criticize all the time.

It's easy to bash the whole genre by just looking at a bad example that happens to be very popular but what's so bad about being open to alternatives?

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sanchopanza

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@mutha3: In 3 posts you failed to point out where the 'negative' is (all the evidence for making a judgement on a game character or a story is there, opinion based though it is) and besides: Proving a negative ≠ shifting the burden of proof, I wasn't arguing about that so...I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, apart from confusing yourself. Why are you even trying to bring in philosophic/legal terminology into a simple game discussion? Seriously, just talk about the fucking games.

Just admit to yourself that you like terrible JRPGs, have a good cry and give me a hug, it will make you feel better (i'm just fucking around)

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AlexW00d

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@Etnos: The fuck are you on about? He has explained why he is thinking this, it's his opinion. He never said what he said was a fact, so how can you call anyone ignorant of other cultures? If he, or I, or anyone for that matter, doesn't like child protagonists, then what the fuck does that have to do with culture? You're just pulling shit out of your ass to try and make a point.

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Hailinel

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Edited By Hailinel

@sanchopanza said:

@mutha3: In 3 posts you failed to point out where the 'negative' is (all the evidence for making a judgement on a game character or a story is there, opinion based though it is) and besides: Proving a negative ≠ shifting the burden of proof, I wasn't arguing about that so...I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, apart from confusing yourself. Why are you even trying to bring in philosophic/legal terminology into a simple game discussion? Seriously, just talk about the fucking games.

Just admit to yourself that you like terrible JRPGs, have a good cry and give me a hug, it will make you feel better (i'm just fucking around)

Proof of a negative is evidence that something is not present. It is troublesome to prove simply because you have to show evidence that something does not exist. To prove, for example, that something is not in a video game, how would I go about doing that? It's not like there's a simply picture or five-minute Youtube clip that would prove my point. If I'm trying to prove a negative, then what I'm trying to find shouldn't even be present. I would need to sit down with the person I am trying to make my case to and play the entire game from start to finish to show that no, this element that I said is not in the game is in fact not in the game.

That is why trying to prove a negative is a bad idea. It is more straight-forward (and scientifically sound) to prove a positive. If I say that something is in fact in a game, I can simply show you a section of the game that it appears in and also explain how and why it appears. I specifically challenged people to prove their case when they stated that yes, these things exist in all of these games. The onus is on them to prove this existence because they made the initial case. For that argument to simply be turned around in an attempt to get me to prove the opposite is indicative of the notion that no, they can't actually prove their case. They could prove a positive very easily, if the positive is capable of being proven.