LiquidPrince

@jadegl: I think if we want to pull the picture all the way out and look at what I think is one of the core issues that all these sub topics stem from, is the issue of division. People who feel marginalized, talked down to, ignored or insulted obviously want to be vocal and protect themselves as they should, but I feel the way it goes about being done is often problematic.

Let's talk about feminism in a broad sense for a moment. The idea of feminism as it originally was formed was a noble goal, wanting equal rights for women in every sense of the word. But what its goal was and what it has become in the modern day are two completely different things. Modern day feminism for example often is about uplifting women at the expense of painting men as toxic, and masculine traits as toxic. And you either agree with every thing they say, or like I've been accused of by Simmant repeatedly in this thread, be called a misogynist. There is no room for discussion. A lot of people might proclaim that they aren't that kind of feminist, and that can be 100% true, but the overwhelming examples of girl power nowadays in media tries to paint women in a good light while simultaneously tearing down men. The Supergirl clip I posted earlier is one of a million different examples, and that's just in fiction. Opening this up to discussions between real people about topics like gender identity is whole other can of worms.

So this comes down to the core problem I stated above. The idea of Feminism is noble, but the reality is that it ends up creating an us or them mentality. Call me a naive ideologist, but I don't think equality will come from a place of division. If you want to treat people like equals, you have to see them as equals. If you just take the issues that exist in fiction for example and focus on them with a hyper specific lens of just how they applies to women, or black people, or gay people, or any other marginalized group, you will most likely have a valid point, because it is indisputable that there is a long history of these people being mistreated, insulted etc... But it then forms a separation. We should always be thinking about it in my opinion as an "all lives matter" situation. Every human deserves to be treated decently and with respect and people should try and see things from all perspectives. The reason this doesn't happen is because it requires a lot more effort to try and see something from multiple perspectives. It's easier to fight for one goal then try and understand multiple.

Here's a discussion which I think demonstrates the us or them mentality that is born of only trying to fight for your one hyper specific goal. You don't have to agree with Jordan Peterson on anything he is discussing, although I do feel he is very well informed on the topics he tries to discuss. But notice how the female interviewer is constantly trying to put words in his mouth or twist what he is trying to say to fit her narrative. It comes off as hostile and disingenuous and is exactly the type of us or them viewpoint that I have personally experienced in this very thread:

"Glad you admitted that the only reason you started this thread is because you didn't like that Abby dared level a very, very valid criticism against a game you like.

AGAIN, this is a very well established and heavily written about and discussed criticism of this game and it is a real problem, whether you are able to see it or not. Now that you've admitted it, can you please stop being a misogynistic jerk?"

or

"You are a misogynist, hands down. It is literally not possible to have the view you do about Abby and her opinion and not be. Please just accept that fact and go hang out on kotoku in action. I'm sure all their gamergate lite bullshit will be much more to your liking and you'll never have to worry about those damn women stepping out of their place and having takes about video games ever again."

Like this is absurd. I'm being attacked because I don't agree with Abby, being told to shut up and to go away. There is no value in seeing my viewpoint. I wasn't dismissing her viewpoint, but trying to expand on why I don't see it in the same way. The same thing happens in the video below and in numerous other places I could point out and is the core issue with creating this us versus them mentality. In trying to defend your viewpoint, you eventually are forced to attack the others.

This discussion is starting to move into a direction that is out of the scope of what it was initially intended. All I will say regarding the matter is as long as the person who comes from a more privileged background doesn't think they know better, or tries to speak on behalf of the less privileged then their opinion shouldn't be dismissed. We are all ultimately human, and can't necessarily choose where and how we grow up. But a person coming from a privileged background can still be a voice for change as valuable as anyone else.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Obviously if people are being shitty and clearly there to stir up trouble, then yeah you should tell them to shut up. But I'm specifically talking about the line he says:

All I'm saying is that if you feel your opinion isn't valid, then we're doing something wrong. It's the same for the flip side; if you feel you're being insulted, talked down to, ignored etc... you should be fierce and defend your position. If someone came into this very thread (and some people have) and gave me a thorough reasoning why they feel that God of War does in fact treat it's women poorly, I have nothing but respect for that opinion. I might not agree with all of it, but I can definitely see their perspective and can use that and be hopeful that future games will in fact be better. "We must be better."

@jasonr86: I like this reading of the final moments and agree with you on how it took choice away from Freya. That was a selfish act on Kratos' part, but he did it with good intentions. He was trying to show his son that the cycle of children killing their parents had to end, which coming from Kratos says a lot. "We must be better." The reason's I think they work narratively is because we know who Kratos is as a character. He was previously just a rage headed monster, so for him to acknowledge that thing can't keep happening says a lot about the things that influenced him to get to this point. It was shitty of Kratos to take the choice away from Freya, but Freya made it perfectly clear that he was going to suffer for what he had done. Kratos did it despite this.

EDIT: Also the fact that you think your input even in the macro level is somehow not as valuable speaks to how shitty the way we as a society handle discussing political issues. Your opinion should be considered the same as others, as long as you try and be informed about the topics you are discussing. The whole, you are a white guy so STFU and go sit in the corner mentality is stupid. You are your own white guy with your own perspectives on life and might not share the opinions of the guy two people over.

@zombiepie: I haven't played the game for 4-5 years so I wouldn't remember enough of why I liked it to form a coherent argument, especially against those who have it fresh in their minds but I'll try here just off the top of my head. I will say that I enjoyed everything about the games visuals and lore. The idea that there were essentially two types of god like beings, and a select few had been chosen and marked to complete a task for them, at the risk of being turned to crystals gave the sense of urgency and mystery that I liked. Who were the good gods and who were the bad. Were you actually dying when you turned to a crystal, or were you becoming immortal. Was the team chosen at random just because they were close by and the most convenient? Some of the characters were a bit annoying, but I still think Lightning is one of the coolest designed FF characters even if she is a female analog of Cloud. I enjoyed the battle systems a lot, especially in the late game where you were free to try and make multiple team compositions and switch between them on the fly.

I understand a lot of the criticisms of how linear the first parts of the game were, but that didn't really bother me. I liked being hurled forward in the game initially because it was a good way to teach you the mechanics and complexity of the fighting, which would really help when you finally got to the open world portion of the game and had to deal with immensely strong enemies. Plus the environments were just so pretty to look at. That's pretty much my reasoning from what I can remember.

@jadegl: I agree with most everything you said, and have tried to reiterate multiple times that I don't want to dismiss other peoples viewpoints or call them wrong. However, I obviously disagree with some people, and so I've been trying to show them my rationale for why. I am open to being countered, if the people doing so actually try and expand on their thoughts as well. It's kind of the whole point of a discussion. And in doing so, certain people, mostly the one, has continuously thrown accusations and insults at me, calling me a misogynist because oh no, Abby has to be agreed with at all times and apparently can't defend herself.

As an addendum, I'd like to say that I think it is important that criticism come from an informed place, otherwise it comes off as disingenuous. It's a little more tricky when someone has to critique a game because it it often requires multiple hours of commitment to fully complete the story and then look at the entire package with a critical lens. If someone gets so turned off by a certain aspect of a game and doesn't want to keep playing it, they still have a valid opinion, but the criticisms to me lose some inherent credibility. It's like if someone read half a book and declared Snape to be an irredeemable shit head. You might be right based off the stuff that you have read so far, but you are missing the nuance of the character and his development. To again tie this back to God of War, watching the ending on Youtube gives a completely different experience then actually playing the game, because much of the characters get fleshed out while you are traversing the world and listening to Mimir, finding lore tablets etc... Not having that context can easily change how you view it.

5 years later and y’all still be crazy. Korra was a great show.

Uh no, not really. You can view things through an impartial unbiased lens. The idea that everything has to be political is pretty asinine. In fact, criticism should come from an honest and impartial place, not with the intent to push an agenda.

All perfectly valid. Like I said, I'm not trying to tear down Hellblade, because it was one of my favorite and most intense gaming experiences last year. All I'm saying is there are a lot more parallels in the two games stories that people don't really acknowledge. Kratos goes through out much of the game giving his son bad advice and it culminates in him becoming an asshole. The moment in which his kills Modi is the moment where you can see Kratos break a little. He hates the gods and by extension himself, and realizes that it isn't the fact that his son is a god that is making him bad, it's that he isn't teaching him properly. It's the journey of a man who doesn't know how to raise his kid without his wife's influence because he doesn't trust himself. It's also partly why the speech he gives Athena when getting the blades is as emotional as it is.

"Pretend to be everything that you are not, teacher, husband... father. But there is one unavoidable truth you cannot change... You will always be... a monster."

"I know... but I am your monster no longer."

That one exchange gives so much insight about the fears that Kratos has and is a deeply moving moment of accepting himself and moving past it for his sons sake. Which... is only possible because of Faye. Kratos is not dealing with mental illness as such, but he is still dealing with a lot of twisted emotions.