@Still_I_Cry: all I'm saying is that byzantines, ottomans, whatever, both of them were terrible in different ways

@Animasta: Seemed like you were stating more than that but ok. As I said before, I wasn't stating that the Islamic Dynasties were the only ones who had issues.

@kashif1: That's like saying the Nazis weren't that bad because they didn't do anything too wrong from 1934-1940. The Ottoman Empire is the Ottoman Empire-it doesn't matter what century you're referring to. Ask yourself, how would you feel if you were an Armenian looking at this game today? Disgusted I would think.

@Animasta: In what way do you think the Byzantines were bad exactly? Could you provide examples?

@kashif1: That's like saying the Nazis weren't that bad because they didn't do anything too wrong from 1934-1940. The Ottoman Empire is the Ottoman Empire-it doesn't matter what century you're referring to. Ask yourself, how would you feel if you were an Armenian looking at this game today? Disgusted I would think.

@Moreau_MD: I would like to have an intelligent discussion with you, using facts and not opinions, but fucking christ, from what you've written so far, I don't think that could ever happen. Like everybody but you as said so far, every Empire has done terrible things, like you know, all those Muslims and Pagans the Christians killed. But I doubt you even acknowledge that as fact,

@Moreau_MD: As a history major I think you are grossly oversimplifying this. Think a little more before saying shit like this.

I have this game in the mail, I was going to get it tomorrow morning. Now I'm fucking boycotting this shit, yo. Fuck creative licences.

I have this game in the mail, I was going to get it tomorrow morning. Now I'm fucking boycotting this shit, yo. Fuck creative licences.

Of course Ottomans are evil.

One tried to kill Dick Van Dyke at the beginning of every episode!

@AlexW00d: If you had actually bothered to read my opinion on Empires you would see that I largely agree with you. Did you not get the bit where I said America (a Christian nation by and large founded on Christian principles) was responsible for more than 80,000 unaccounted for civilian deaths in Iraq. No, no of course you didn't because you obviously only saw the word 'muslim' and thought you'd come riding in on your white horse and shinning armor in defense. If there's one thing I hate more than trolls its white fucking knights like you- rushing to add comments about threads you haven't even read in full yet.

@Tim_the_Corsair: Just so you know, the word 'Byzantine' isn't actually Greek at all- it was coined by a German historian in the early 19th century because he got fed-up of having to write its real name 'The Eastern Roman Empire'. There was also a certain degree of animosity/jealousy from Germans towards Greeks at the time- they wanted to take away the title of 'Roman' from Greece and keep it for their own late medieval period 'The Holy Roman Empire'- this, in itself, is laughable as the Germans, much to their annoyance, didn't ever get to play a huge part in the Roman Empire or its politics, they just provided good soldiers from time to time. Thus Byzantine was also used as a word for treachery to defame the Greeks at the start of the 20th century. The whole 'Empires are automatically evil because they're Empires' argument is a rather trite one I'm afraid but, as I suspected, you're the sort of person who loves to generalize about anything they deem to be even remotely right-wing. For the record, I am also a liberal but I hate people who generalize- you are yourself engaging in a from of left wing extremism. Speaking as someone who has actually studied Ancient History, the Roman Empire was, by and large, a rather just, fair and effective governmental system. At its height it could boast clean clear water for all its subjects- from Britain to North Africa, true cultural diversity (many Emperors for example, weren't even Roman; see Tiberius the Spaniard), religious freedom, free travel throughout all of Europe and a plot of land given to all those who fought in its service as payment. That's far more than most governments can say today. Yes, like every civilization, Rome had its negative aspects- Caligula and Nero were monsters, Romans fed Christians to lions, Romans kept slaves(this was never based on race or the color of someone's skin however- the Romans didn't have a concept of racism). But this is, after all, human nature- and its also interesting to note that many of Rome's negative aspects only developed in its twilight years. Whatever the respective world religions might try to force down our throats, we are, all of us, animals in the truest sense of the word and always will be- it's unhealthy and foolish to deny that part of ourselves. Part of the problem with the modern age, whether due to religious or societal conventions, is from cradle to grave we're all desperately forcing ourselves to be something we cannot ever hope to be- you can't change what it means to be human, and domination and conquest will always be an unfortunate aspect of that. What you can try to do, and what in my opinion the Romans succeeded in doing, is be realistic and at least try to establish unity, law and order so that human progress is allowed to flourish and the scourge of war, though never extinguished, might be quelled for a time- that's what the PAX ROMANA (Roman peace) was all about. The modern age, the West specifically, is actually far more brutal though secretive in nature- chemical warfare in Vietnam, the atomic bomb, the Nazi regime, 80,000 civilian deaths in Iraq at the hands of America unaccounted for- hardly an enlightened time we live in is it? Can you truly call the Romans tyrannical and the modern Western world democratic in the face of all this? At least the Romans were honest about the lives they took.

In contrast, the Ottomans sought ONLY to control and dominate to suit their own interests, they had no concept of multiculturalism or religious tolerance and thus enslaved all who they came across. By re-writing history in such a manner Ubisoft is committing an act of blatant racism towards the Greeks, that also shows a total disregard for other cultures who were affected by Ottoman rule. I believe part of the reason they are doing this, and I do only mean part, is to avoid a possible backlash from the more extreme elements of the Muslim community (and I do ONLY mean the extreme parts). But, of course, nobody really gives a fuck because 'hey, who really cares about a bunch of silly Greeks?'- apathy towards other peoples' culture and history is itself a form of inherent racism by the way. Oh, and for the record, one of Ubisoft's biggest claims to fame is that Assassin's Creed, in terms of characters environments and culture, is as historically accurate as possible- Pope Borgia did in fact have an incestuous relationship with his daughter, for example. That's what makes this whole thing so wrong- people will come away from the game with an interpretation of the Ottomans and Byzantines that is wholly false.

Its a video game. This is like getting mad at the Civilization games...

@Commisar123: Same goes for you buddy. If you bothered to read what I wrote in full you would see that none of it is generalized- every point is explained and backed up with evidence. You say you're a history major- that would make you what, at least 18? From your forum pic I can tell you're a fan of a certain fantasy table-top game; don't you think it's time to put away your little plastic space marines and actually start studying in the real world little man? You clearly need to my friend.

@Tim_the_Corsair: code for: I'm not capable of writing an intelligent response to this, so I'll just wimp out and insult the OP some more.

They're both bad guys.

History is written by the victors...

I don't think it matters, because they both die in fantastically gory ways.

And that is all that matters.

@Moreau_MD said:

@Commisar123: Same goes for you buddy. If you bothered to read what I wrote in full you would see that none of it is generalized- every point is explained and backed up with evidence. You say you're a history major- that would make you what, at least 18? From your forum pic I can tell you're a fan of a certain fantasy table-top game; don't you think it's time to put away your little plastic space marines and actually start studying in the real world little man? You clearly need to my friend.

Few things, one thank you for giving me the motivation I need to finally stop playing with my toys and go out into the real world. I can safely say that this comment has truly changed my life, and rather than backing up your assertions with facts you assailed my directly. This earned my respect and I am truly awed by your intellectual prowess. Second of all, you're right I only read your OP because I didn't think it was worth my time to read your other posts. I'll end with this. Look the world is a complicated place. To quote a certain game series, "Nothing is true everything is permitted". Why does it matter if the Byzantines are the bad guys and the Ottomans are the good guys? It’s a fucking video game. If I got upset over every single historical inaccuracy in popular fiction I wouldn't play any sorts of games. Look, I shouldn't have picked a fight with you, that was immature of me and I'm sorry about that. Clearly you truly believe in what you are saying and I can respect that. That being said, I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to discuss this sort of matter, nor am I convinced by the facts that you present for your argument. I might refer you to a book like Guns, Germs, and Steel, George Washington and the American Military Tradition, or The Military Revolution to get a better understanding on how to construct an argument on historical issues. Also:

@Moreau_MD said:

@AlexW00d: If you had actually bothered to read my opinion on Empires you would see that I largely agree with you. Did you not get the bit where I said America (a Christian nation by and large founded on Christian principles) was responsible for more than 80,000 unaccounted for civilian deaths in Iraq. No, no of course you didn't because you obviously only saw the word 'muslim' and thought you'd come riding in on your white horse and shinning armor in defense. If there's one thing I hate more than trolls its white fucking knights like you- rushing to add comments about threads you haven't even read in full yet.

Why do you keep bringing up that you've mentioned Muslims? What does that even have to do with what I said? I'm not white knight, how could I be when my post was entirely about how every nation has had terrible people who have done terrible things; so unless I am white-knighting a special kind of people only you seem to know exist, then you've flummoxed me.

And what the fuck are you on about with the US and Iraq and how they were a country founded on Christian principles? That was 400 years ago, what does that have to do with a war now?

You've made a huge fool of yourself in this thread, you should probably stop.

Guys you fist fought the Pope in AC2, and he beat your ass for a good portion of that fight. Don't think they really care about historical accuracy.

@SeriouslyNow said:

@Mikemcn said:

History is written by the victors...

The Ottoman Empire was extremely multicultural and it brought us modern medicine and I say that as a Jew. The OP is nuts and more than slightly anti Islamic.

I agree with the first sentence of your post, but not the second. I don't think the OP is "anti-Islamic," per se, but I would say that he is excessively emotional about the subject.

@Moreau_MD said:

The premise of the new Assassin's Creed game is ridiculous. The Ottoman Empire was one of the worst to ever blight the earth...a collection of paedophiles, sadists, religious extremists- most of them tyrannical beyond belief. Yet the Greek Byzantines are the ones being labelled as the 'bad guys’ while the Ottomans are made out to be sophisticated and multicultural...bullshit, the Byzantines were the multicultural ones- they practically invented the term. Of course this is all done in the name of 'political correctness'...wouldn't want a certain fanatical group getting their pants/fuses in a twist now would we? I’m really getting sick of all this mindless pandering towards Muslim extremism...especially when it's this obvious. Man-up and show the unbiased truth Ubisoft- I’m sure most moderate Muslims would actually thank you for it.

Wait, what?

Judging empires should never be black or white, and the Ottoman Empire was definitely not one of the worst ever to blight the earth. In fact, the Ottoman Empire was responsible for many great things civilizations take for granted today. You are clearly biased based on what you said right here.

What the Ottoman Empire became in its last periods should never overshadow what it was during its golden age, it was one of the most culturally tolerant empires ever, and it had one of the best legislative systems in history, it did a lot of things right before the empire got corrupted and nationalism seeped into it, not to mention greed and injustice, but that didn't happen until later on.

And seriously? How many games out there have middle eastern characters as antagonists? Do you see us raging across the internets because westerners are always presented as righteous and fighting the horrible enemy from the east? No, and so nobody should panic when a well known empire that was ruled by Muslims is depicted as good for once, in a video game.

@Commisar123 said:

@Moreau_MD: As a history major I think you are grossly oversimplifying this. Think a little more before saying shit like this.

Unsimplify it then :)

@AlexW00d: George Bush, the idiot responsible for this war on terror, claimed he had a direct connection to God and that God told him to invade Iraq. America, unlike Britain and most of Europe, is still a predominantly Christian country, partly run by some very conservative highly-fundamentalist politicians. It's the 21st century and some worryingly large parts of the South still take it as read that we all came from only two individuals. Christianity has historically created a great amount of friction with Islam. So yes, yes I do believe America at large is still Christian and driven by mostly the same principles the puritans were 400 years ago. I think it's you who has made a fool of themselves with your inflammatory, insulting and baseless posts.

@Moreau_MD said:

Apathy is part of the problem, not enough people actual care that this game is basically a heaping pile of apologetic revisionist history. Let me make it easier for you- it would be like making a game about the colonization of America that depicted the natives as evil and the white man as all-knowing and benevolent- missing out all the bits about genocide and such. Basically, the story behind this game is actually incredibly racist towards Greece and its people but nobody cares because they're white so that somehow makes it OK to shit over thousands of years of suffering and barbarism at the hands of the Turks.

Did you stop to think it's not apathy, but people smart enough to realize it's FICTIONALIZED, ALTERNATE history?

@Moreau_MD said:

@ZeForgotten: Way to ignore everything else that's being said just so you can scoff at an issue you probably don't have a clue about in the first place.Troll.

What, I thank you for being entertaining and you flip out like a little girl getting a surprise visit from a drunk uncle in the middle of the night? Man you're the troll here (as others have clearly stated)

But maybe you're right, maybe we should all stop playing with our toys and go outside and study the real world, you know like you do by playing video games and being offended because it's not accurate to what you have read in some way-too-old school book.

Maybe you should try and play a video game and have fun with it instead of getting so riled up over, well, nothing?

Thank god(or whatever they would call him in Assassin's Creed, Allan, or something) that you're not one of those Final Fantasy haters though, they're even worse.

Would you believe that there are people out there who actually hate Final Fantasy because "They didn't have airships back in the day. Sure knights and all that, but airships?" .. it's funny. But all I'm trying to say here as I get ready to leave work is, chill out, it's a fucking video game. You're playing with the same kids toys we are.

@ZeForgotten: I'm fine with that because, hey, the clue is in the fucking name 'fantasy'. It's a fantasy rpg with absolutely no basis in the real world and the creators aren't trying to do that anyway- its a fictional setting with a fictional story. The problem I have here, is that Ubisoft (aside from the game's story) takes pride in the claim that the game itself is historically accurate in its characters, setting and culture of the time- this is wrong. If they want to claim that these three elements are entirely non-fictional (i.e based on historical fact) then they should have made damn sure to actually portray the Ottomans (oppressors) and the Byzantines (oppressed) as they really were at this particular point in history. But if you just want to be a dick and insult me some more that's fine too; you clearly need the confidence boost it seems to give you.

@MidgardDragon: like I said above, they take pride in the fact that the setting, politics and characters of the time are fully realized and as historically accurate as possible. It's one of the series major selling points. Sadly, this isn't the case anymore.