@musai: My issue is with people who think that other developers or creative people should bend to their will. There's a sort of entitled attitude social justice types have that, if they don't like something, then other people should change to suit them. I don't particularly like the Call of Duty franchise and I think their treatment of war is distasteful; but I don't think they should bend to my will - they have a market who likes their games just fine. There's no reason why Infinity Ward, Treyarch or Sledgehammer should care what I think; if I don't like something I can play something else or make my own game. In contrast, social justice warriors seem to think that if they find the 'treatment of women' in a game 'misogynistic', then the creators should change the game to suit them; instead of choosing a different game to play or making their own.
It's a fine line to walk, for sure. I'm of two minds on the matter. I would love to see more varied stories in games about different subjects. I love Zoe Quinn's Depression Quest because it's so intensely personal and touching, and I think we need to see more of that in games. I also think that it's very hard to offend someone with that kind of game.
On the other hand, art is not perfect, nor should it ever be. Asking people to change their art because it's upsetting to people defeats the purpose of art in the first place. Now, I'm not saying that people should go out and make games to purposely piss people off, nor am I saying that every game needs to conform to a strict set of guidelines so as not to upset anyone.
Personally, I think if there we had more game designers, from all walks of life, genders, orientations, and so on, we would naturally see more varied experiences without the need for any sort of heavy handed censorship .
Wow, this thread has really grown. I'm happy with how it's turned out so far, with a few exceptions. It's definitely a good sign that this discussion is decidedly not toxic. Despite what people say, there is room for a reasonable, open discourse on the topic without descending to name calling and finger pointing. Keep it up!
[...] That, when the desire to be more diverse and more progressive starts sounding arbitrary and petty, is where there should exist more grown-up people in the press saying "I agree with what you're saying generally, but come on. Pick your fucking battles." There does not exist that person; at least, not that I'm aware of. There is no one that says no, no one that calls out others for being a little too silly, or for being a little too sensitive. You eventually realize growing up that maturity comes through criticism, through serious introspection, through being able to surround yourself with people who aren't just your yes-men [...]
Yes, exactly! I remember someone in a previous thread saying something along the lines of "we need more 'yes, but', and less 'yes, and'." When there's no moderating force and no real boundaries, the "discussion" tends to get super dumb and divisive. We get situations where Anita Sarkeesian -- who just took home some kind of award from GDC, to the near-universal praise of industry insiders -- calls Bayonetta a "choose your own patriarchal adventure porno fantasy" and people are labelled misogynists for questioning her intentions.
There's been a few examples (as you mentioned before) of people in the industry taking fairly mild skeptical positions and getting shit for it. There's nothing to be gained from saying anything at all unless it fits neatly into the feel-good narrative, and surprise, the narrative has gotten pretty goofy and one-sided.
Well said! As much of a progressivist as I am, this kind of mentality is scary dangerous. I hate that people are harassing Anita, but I hate that it's difficult to be critical of her work without being lumped into some kind of collective 'other: the fallacy of false duality. Criticisms of ideas and viewpoints put forward in this debate are the only way we'll be able to push forward When people start labelling people for disagreeing with 'spokespeople' for a movement or idea, this encourages stagnation of ideas. We shouldn't dismiss arguments from the 'other side' but use them to work towards a better solution.
As someone else mentioned, it's disappointing that sometimes, critical analysis of games can go too far and discredit the overall point. I wish there would be a moderate voice that could promote reasonable discourse and not echo chamber "me too"-ism. The problem is that there is no forum for any dissenting opinions. Games journalism is incredibly insular and "closed". Unless you're in the loop, any counterpoints you would make or opinions you'd like to share are drowned out by the big names. I suppose the solution is to try and become a moderate voice myself, but that seems difficult given what I've just said.
That isn't a gender thing though where one should realize that getting random men interested in video games is hard too. There is little chance to get a guy who just doesn't care impressed with video games by forcing them to watch you run around in Dark Souls 2 because it is pure nonsense to them.
Right, but because of societal norms, it's much less likely to find a random man who hasn't played video games at some point in his life. It's always kind of been "boys stuff" and it's still kinda treated that way to this day. Most hardcore female gamers I know either aren't taken seriously or are straight up ignored when trying to ask questions about board games or video games in stores.
This isn't a video game issue, it's an issue in general. Women writers, actors, news reporters, etc. aren't taken as seriously as men. There was a study that was done some time ago that showed between a man and woman news reporter, the male news reporter seemed far more trustworthy than the female news reporter by both men and women, even though they covered the same topics in the exact same way. You can read a lot into that, but there have been numerous studies that show there's some type of biological affinity towards a mans deep voice over a woman's higher voice.
I never presented it as solely a video game issue. It's a societal issue that has an effect on our hobby because our hobby is part of society.
That isn't a gender thing though where one should realize that getting random men interested in video games is hard too. There is little chance to get a guy who just doesn't care impressed with video games by forcing them to watch you run around in Dark Souls 2 because it is pure nonsense to them.
Right, but because of societal norms, it's much less likely to find a random man who hasn't played video games at some point in his life. It's always kind of been "boys stuff" and it's still kinda treated that way to this day. Most hardcore female gamers I know either aren't taken seriously or are straight up ignored when trying to ask questions about board games or video games in stores.
There's more to life than caring about what people think about a stupid hobby. Turn the computer off and see life as it is. You'll realise how small this problem is
Still reading through the thread, but I think this comment is inaccurate and ignorant. This shit never just stays on the web - the mentality that accepts assholes harassing women online also accepts the harassment of women in all walks of life. There is a definite connection between social acceptance that "trolls will be trolls" when they tell women to fuck off back to the kitchen and that "boys will be boys" when guys scream at me to show them my tits when I walk down the street.
Where do you live? I've only a couple times in my life seen a man disrespect a woman. I know it happens, but to say even a portion of that is because peoples dumb comments in online games and online sites seems ignorant to me. Everyone calls everyone heinous crap online, it's one of the reasons why I don't play online games.
I live in Orlando but, uh, bruh - this happens everywhere. Like, all over the world. To all women. Constantly.
And street harassment isn't because of online harassment, but both are symptoms of an underlying problem where women are traditionally devalued as people.
Of course it happens, I've just rarely heard it happen. You made it sound like it's constant which is why I asked where you live.
It happened to my wife while I was out with her Thursday. I live in Canada's capital. It also isn't the first time she's been harassed in public.
There's more to life than caring about what people think about a stupid hobby. Turn the computer off and see life as it is. You'll realise how small this problem is
It's not a small problem by any means. It's indicative of a deep rooted societal problem. Obviously I can't change the world. What I can change, or attempt to change, is the industry I've been involved in for years, and the industry I hope to continue to be involved with in the future.
Log in to comment