ragnar_mike

@drbroel: That is definitely a fair point. Expectations play a huge role in all of this. I've never been much for the truly experimental genre works beyond just an appreciation for the rule breaking as a means of expression. And perhaps that's all this truly is, a team playing in the sandbox they created. Good for them for taking the risk. And maybe its more impressive that it's one of the more important IP's in the industry to take that risk in, but there is absolutely less wiggle room for experimentation when you're also trying to appeal to a mass audience, which I assume Naughty Dog and Sony presumably wanted.

I may very well be stuck on the forest rather than the trees in that regard. And I don't disagree that there's absolutely many more complex and interesting ideas within these characters. I just think that the ways in which they tie into the overarching theme of the game hinders both parts rather then elevates them. The pieces are all there, I just feel they are in the wrong order.

@drbroel: I dunno if I'd say revenge, self destructive behaviors, and forgiveness are any more complex than grief, abandonment issues, and selfishness. Both games have weighty, dramatic themes that play out over the course an extended period of time. But yes, I think the execution plan of the second game was much more loftier. I just don't believe it nailed what it needed to. I can certainly appreciate the risk, doesn't make it a better experience for taking it. But mileage varies on that, for sure.

@nodima: Yep. It's one of those weird things about telling any kind of story. How, when, and why you reveal information is just as important (if not more than) as who and what.

@drbroel: True, I'm kinda leaning more on Abbie's arc here since its the more explored one. I think what I was trying to say is that choosing to disregard or ignore what keeps you grounded and human (be it for revenge or fear of commitment after trauma, etc) unmoors you from society leading to all sorts of treacherous paths.

Its much easier to show that shift from A>B rather than try and explain it through flashbacks.

@drbroel: After everything I've seen and heard, I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a very straightforward analogy that interpersonal connections are what keep us grounded and that cutting those ties leaves us adrift and lost in a sea of nothingness. Which is, I dunno, fine I guess.

Film school ruined most movies for me. Seeing how the sausage got made makes you realize that film people love looking clever (I condemn myself in this statement as well) And Neil Druckmann is a hella film person. Which is tricky because it's a very fine line between clever and needlessly convoluted.

Nothing is technically wrong with anything in this game except for perhaps stale mechanics/AI at this point. I don't think any of the deaths or decisions couldn't be explained away with properly structured cutscenes and dialog and plot structure. It just sorta feels like there were big tentpole narrative things they wanted to say and then they had to construct a story from the top down based off of throwaway story elements. Rogue One has similar issues to me. Things in previous works (many Bothans vs a nameless firefly surgeon) that were probably never meant to act as the catalyst for a story. They can for sure, but the setup is paramount. I see so many people saying they don't care about these new characters. That's Naughty Dog's fault, not the person playing it. And it's not like they didn't solve this exact problem before.

Playing as Sarah in the first game makes you identify with her and care about her and Joel's relationship before you see him in the current world's setting. It gives you context. You understand his grief and walling off through the rest of the game without ever having to have expository dialog, and that allows for more meaningful dialog or subtle acting cues to take its place. They do this for Abby but not as smoothly. You could just as easily have had a prologue showing Abby's experience of those events early so that when things get gnarly, its a much more grey area. I feel like it would have had a better impact than this execution. The symmetry of that (Joel/Abby/Ellie being broken by a death and having it derail their future) is one of those narrative rhyming things that feels dumb when you type it out, but the repetition works in telling a story without having to beat anybody over the head with it. (too soon =P) You both feel for Abby and like Joel even though he sucks and would be forced to contemplate that as the story progresses. The way they did it, your nostalgia overrides their narrative purpose and leaves a bad taste in your mouth. At least it did for me.

Abby is a fine character. They all are, really. Its just how they are given motives and when we as the audience are exposed to it that feels off. The pacing and plot of a narrative driven game like this is crucial and this just didn't land for me. It's like when I see a film and go "oh man, if they just edited out this scene and rearranged the timing of these events it would land so much harder." That's up the individual director and editor to decide, but there are well worn tropes for a reason and I feel like some were skipped for whatever reason they saw fit.

Loss of innocence is a huge part of these games and yet that arc feels so much more realized in the first game because you can't tell people to feel a certain way in media. At its best, media uses its smoke and mirrors to make you think like you discovered the hidden meaning of a tale by yourself, when in actuality the entire thing was on rails. The fact that everybody knows and sees the "murder bad. people shouldn't be bad. its a vicious cycle" theme is because the track isn't hidden here. The narrative is obvious and no amount of gorgeous art and great acting and new and interesting characters can overcome that feeling. Nobody claims the first game was a wholly original idea, but the execution of those key concepts was better, in my mind.

I sometimes feel like the original star wars having a great, dark middle chapter has lead to a lot of shitty sequels trying to push a trilogy into places the IP doesn't inherently need or want to go. Ironically that also includes the new Star Wars trilogy. Yes, Force Awakens is safe and nostalgic. But so was A New Hope. You don't always need to reinvent the wheel. Just make a good wheel and most people are happy.

TLOU foundationally has a very common movie trope theme. Its the execution of that theme was what carried some less than stellar gameplay and made that game a classic. TLOU2 is ALSO a very common movie trope, but the same rough gameplay edges seem to be showing their age when the part of the series that held everything together is leaving a bitter taste is people's mouths. I really liked Rob Zacny's article on the matter. Being dark, and gritty and nihilistic isn't the problem. It appears from what I can tell from reviews its that they don't DO anything with it. Its a setting the game takes place in rather than a narrative or morality play.

Not really spoilers, but tone comparisons, I guess you could infer between TLOU 1&2:

That being said, the game looks gorgeous. Props to errybody who worked on it. But man, live by the sword and die by the sword in regards to narrative driven story games, I guess.

I will certainly at least check out the pilot to see how the acting, tone, and production is. Its a fairly sturdy setting/trope for a season of television and I like the people who are involved that I know of. I do suspect it will probably do better with folks who are only tangentially aware of the IP rather than folks who have played the game, since because the game is so story focused and more or less trying to be a miniseries drama, so it could very easily feel like already tread ground. Which I mean, if you've watch TWD or The Road or a lot of other stuff, it's gonna feel that way anyway.

But yeah, I'll certainly give it a shot, just don't have my hopes up. Good media is hard.

I've definitely kept an eye on this game probably since Brad first started playing it on UPF and more recently with Vinny and a few other youtubers playing it now that there's more content and systems set up.

I discovered the fold down features of the medium storage trays about 3 minutes before Vinny did in the video and giggled as he made the same gasp. I've since upgraded to a convoy of three large rovers packed with storage silos to collect about a dozen research pods back at once tonight just finished dragging 4 solar salvaged large solar arrays back to my base, which was a journey I tell you. I have many fields of crevasses on my planet so building enough bridges and clearing through forrests to allow the god awful winch physics to let me pull those suckers through was testing my patience.

Its great mindless fun and progression, which is appreciated these days. I wish there were better storage solutions because honestly the space a good haul of materials takes up is ridiculous and it feels so dumb resorting to the pit method when there are literally a dozen storage tools that all feel lacking for whatever stage of gathering you're at.

Once I start reliably gathering gases from other planets, I'll set myself up with a jetpack and start spelunking in earnest.