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Suicrat

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Suicrat

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#1  Edited By Suicrat

Another thing to note is the cost of these so-called "social programs" on a holistic level. I've read comments on this thread, comments in other forums, responses to news articles, and tweets that isolate small portions of the cost burden per-taxpayer or per-individual, according to various estimates and projections. But isolating costs associated with particular provisions does not give you a whole picture, just because creative accountants have distributed the burden to a wide array of channels does not mean the burden does not exist.

It does not take mere macroeconomic chump change to guarantee health insurance for 26 000 000 more people, if it did, it wouldn't be such an alleged pressing need for the government to address. The means by which federal, state, provincial, municipal, and other government treasuries pay for these programs is through taxation and borrowing. Yes, they could tax just the rich to pay for it, but that capital is invested in companies with employees and shareholders if it is not taxed, and additional tax burdens on the rich lead to increased profit-taking and decreased investment, leading to decreased economic growth, shareholder returns, and employment, further shrinking the taxable pool. The alternative means is borrowing. This just leads to increased interest burdens on the treasuries of future administrations, meaning, in effect you're forcing your children and grandchildren to pay for the interest on the loans your government took to pay for your healthcare. Is that fair, is that just? I don't believe it is, and it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to get from the widely-espoused notion of "free healthcare for everyone" to healthcare funded by future generations. But the purchasing power that pays for so-called free healthcare comes from somewhere, and you're kidding yourself if you think it'll only come from the pockets of the rich. They wrote this fucking law, after all.

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Suicrat

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#2  Edited By Suicrat

@Brodehouse: Which province do you live in? If you're not living in Alberta, then your province's healthcare burdens are quickly stretching beyond their treasuries' ability to tax and borrow to pay for it. Cuts are coming, and in some provinces, have already come.

And, besides, every Canadian citizen knows the real victims of the CHA are anyone who lives outside densely-populated areas, because doctors don't go where there aren't enough provincial health insurance claimants to operate profitably.

(I live in Toronto, by the way.)

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Suicrat

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#3  Edited By Suicrat

@Kazona said:

@Suicrat

@Mageman said:

@Kazona said:

Anyone who is against universal health care is either rich enough to pay for whatever ailment they might get, or they're morons.

Obamacare is not universal health care, it's something which forces you to buy health insurance from a private company. To be honest I'm not surprised why some people dislike such an idea.

It's this part right here.

But doesn't it also ensure that those who, now, can't afford health care will be insured as well? I think that's a good thing.

That's great, but does the fact that you (and apparently several million people who agree with you, if twitter is any indication) think that give you the right to force people to buy private insurance, force people into a tougher lending market, and force people to pay higher taxes? And what if all the unintended consequences of the manifold provisions of this monolithic law produce less affordable healthcare for everyone? Will your desire to provide more healthcare to more people justify that?

The history of federal and state interventions into the healthcare industry is riddled with unintended consequences:

A World-War 2 Era law allowing companies to deduct healthcare expenses from payroll taxes drove up the cost of healthcare for low-income, unemployed, and retired Americans, leading to...

A Johnson Administration law creating Medicare and Medicaid, mandating that states pay the healthcare costs of their poor and old largely paid for by stipends from the federal government led to a massive ballooning of federal and state budgets, but that it provided limited subsidised access to prescription pharmaceuticals, which led to...

A George W. Bush administration law expanding federal subsidies for prescription drugs to Medicare recipients, again adding hundreds of billions of dollars in expenses to federal budgets...

And all of these squeaky-wheel-gets-the-grease approaches to expanding healthcare subsidies to heavily-lobbying (and/or electorally significant) groups led to the Affordable Care Act, which will massively increase revenues and costs in both private and public healthcare coverage, which will inevitably lead to single-payer healthcare, which you know... is bankrupting every Canadian province that doesn't have a money spigot called the Oil Sands.

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Suicrat

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#4  Edited By Suicrat

Umm, just to make sure you guys know I stand for reason and not one party or the other: all these opponents of the decision decrying the loss of the status quo, and these alleged newfound "restrictions" on health insurance are either looking super-long term, or not looking at all. health insurance and HMO stocks were trending up after the ruling, and it's no surprise, as the health insurance lobby was a major proponent of this provision in particular. Yes, in the long run this is the final nail in the coffin of private health insurance, but health insurers have been allowed to keep their 50 respective fiefdoms for, arguably, over a century if you look at Hooper v. Caliornia (1895). This was a decision upholding a California law to make it a misdemeanor crime to broker insurance across state lines, with the decision setting the precedent that "every reasonable construction must be resorted to, in order to save a statute from unconstitutionality".

The linked decision represents, I would argue, the beginning of coercive control of health care in America... 117 years ago! And the above principle I quoted from that decision was quoted today in the decision by Justice Roberts reverses (and for some reason supercedes) the founding principle of a country with limited federal power. I may seem to be baying at some nebulous ghost but this legal precedent shifts the balance of the court from striking down laws to upholding them, when in serious national doubt. If a law is poor or poorly written, it should not stand, whether it limits federal power or expands it. The precedents set by this decision upholding the ACA do both, and in potentially very destructive ways! This law is poor and poorly written and will bankrupt several states with demographically poor an/or demographically old populations. But in the short and medium term, the federal government has put a gun to the head of every middle-income citizen, and forced them into their local health insurer's office, this will lead to windfall profits, increases in prices (due to increased demand), and eventually the full move over to full single-payer.

Another thing for those in favour of the ruling to consider is the provision of the law (which was upheld by the court) expanding states' obligations to provide Medicaid coverage to adults (both those with children and those without) within 133% of the federally-defined poverty lines. People on the left often decry the expanding gap between rich and poor (a gap that historically tends to widen under relatively left-wing governments and narrow under relatively right-wing governments) and it may or may not be a legitimate social trend for one to concern oneself with, I am not questioning that. What I am questioning in this case is the conclusion. Those who are opposed to the phenomenon of an expanding gap between rich and poor (which is by no means permanent or constant) should be opposed to the provision of this law in particular (as well as many other hallmarks of new left ideology, but that's a different matter), because it pushes an estimated 26 000 000 into Medicaid over the next 4 years. This represents a 40% increase and these numbers are based on estimates by the federal Office of the Actuary This means 40% more money has to go into Medicaid funding. That money will come partially for taxes but it mostly will be borrowed. So how does this fuck over the middle class? Well it also kinda puts the sting on wealthy people but they can afford both their tax bills and the costs associated with healthcare so it's not that big a deal for them (although it will drive them to take more profits out of their companies, thereby affecting wages and non-healthcare benefits of their workers). People whose income is outside the new 133% threshold, but is not high enough to afford private healthcare face higher borrowing costs, the "shared responsibility" fee, and get poorer quality care than both the poor and the rich. So you might argue that this actually brings the poor and the rich closer together (even though it squeezes the middle class, but all it does is put them on equal footing in terms of one aspect of their economic lives, and leaves the massive gulf between them in every other economic aspect as wide as ever. But it will also slow the social mobility of the poor. Unless a person can make a massive leap in earning power, they will have no incentive to leave a job that keeps them in the Medicaid threshold for one that offers them more income, but not enough more that they can afford private health insurance.

In the end, the key point is that the goal of making healthcare available as broadly as possible to as many people of many different social orders is not ignoble, the flaw is found in the method; which in this case comes in the form of coercion on a massive scale. If you haven't yet seen why in the realms of education, manufacturing, finance, construction, telecommunications, home insurance, and agriculture, you're not gonna see why in the case of healthcare either.

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Suicrat

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#5  Edited By Suicrat

@Mageman said:

@Kazona said:

Anyone who is against universal health care is either rich enough to pay for whatever ailment they might get, or they're morons.

Obamacare is not universal health care, it's something which forces you to buy health insurance from a private company. To be honest I'm not surprised why some people dislike such an idea.

It's this part right here.

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Suicrat

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#6  Edited By Suicrat

3 Ninjas Kick Back Comic Book adaptation?! Why is this the first I've heard about this?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Suicrat

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#7  Edited By Suicrat

Who cares about the lost jobs? That's always only temporary! What about the lost pensions and savings of EA's investors and shareholders? That loss of capital is permanent!

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Suicrat

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#8  Edited By Suicrat

I'm enjoying all the SimCity fallacies I'm seeing in this thread: "The government collects taxes to pay contractors and employees to provide police and fire protection services, why not grant them the power to force people to buy healthcare from nominally-private insurance companies under penalty of fine?" Dudes, you're already going bankrupt as is!

Anyone who wants to pretend America didn't have government-controlled healthcare before this ignores the fact that 46 cents of every American dollar spent on healthcare in the U.S. is spent by a government agency.

Also, the best thing about yesterday's supreme court decision is it has stripped Congress's ability to restrict people's activity under the inter-state commerce clause of the U.S. constitution. I'm pretty sure this means it's time for assassins to petition the courts for the "right" to commit murder-for-hire!

(I exaggerate, obviously. But seriously, the decision opinion by Chief Justice Roberts is so full of contradictions and holes it's not even funny! He upholds the individual mandate because it's a penalty and not a tax, and claims it doesn't have severability because it's a tax and not a penalty!)

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Suicrat

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#9  Edited By Suicrat

@ShaggE said:

Fine, I'll stop buying helium people. Only nitrogen people from here on out.

I love you almost as much as I love the proper implementation of commas, ShaggE.

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Suicrat

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#10  Edited By Suicrat

Your medical history will be known to the organ harvesters once you die. And also, maybe it would be good to donate your organs to medical science after you die and it will give researchers more of a base sample to study the effects of smoking and other lifestyle choices you make on various vital organs.

I honestly feel you should be free to sell your organs to the highest bidder, but I'm sure there are people in this thread who would find such a notion deplorable. However a price signalling system could help the market better understand which organ consumers are in greater need of organs: medical research or organ transplant therapy; and of course with a monetary incentive to donate organs might drive more people to be willing to donate. I hear that both organ transplant therapy and medical research have a dire lack of donors, but that's just anecdotal.

As George Carlin once said (about something almost completely different), "Why should it be illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away for free?"