Why Red Dead Redemption being the greatest game of all time isn't a consensus yet?

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#101 Posted by Max_Cherry (1369 posts) -

Best protagonist? They just saw Tombstone and put Bill Paxton ( god rest his soul) in their game.

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#102 Posted by inevpatoria (7122 posts) -

clearly you never played Land of the Dead: Road to Fiddler's Green

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#103 Posted by Bollard (7746 posts) -

because it's a super boring game with easily forgettable characters and the setting is visually unappealing and annoying to traverse, nor is it enjoyable to actually play.

It's not a good game, Jeff is right.

Preach.

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#104 Posted by imhungry (727 posts) -

@socurtoxanarosa: If we're going by the same definition of 'banter' as generally lighthearted and friendly conversation, then I would advise you for future reference that putting forth facetious hyperbole that doesn't immediately come off as such (due to the wonderful medium of online text) probably isn't the best way to initiate said banter. That being said, now reading that you may possibly be coming from rpgcodex suddenly makes this thread make a whole lot more sense.

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#105 Posted by meteora3255 (526 posts) -

@socurtoxanarosa:I was really trying to stay out of this but after reading through this thread I just couldn't. It has all the same problems that every Rockstar game has. The open-world seems massive but outside of the marked missions (and minigames) there isn't anything meaningful to do in it. Compare that to a game like Breath of the Wild where it feels like literally every few feet there is something to do or find. The shooting is better than most GTA games but still pales in comparison to the best 3rd person shooters (such as Gears of War). The story completely loses all semblance of pacing and urgency for the entire Mexico act. Much like every GTA game, it lasts 5-10 hours longer than it should and the pacing suffers as a result. Marston has the Nathan Drake problem of being a killer during gameplay while the narrative portrays him as a changed man and no longer in that life. The mission structure is either generic Rockstar/GTA missions or something new (such as herding) that lasts too long and isn't fun. The writing was fine but it's not The Last of Us. I love RDR but its still a Rockstar game and still has the same flaws that always plague that studio.

To your original question, it's not the consensus GOAT because there are valid flaws that detract from the game for a lot of people. You and I were able to get through them but not everyone can. I am about to finish an in-depth retrospective of the first Mass Effect, one of my favorites of all-time. Almost every entry I have come to terms with the fact that the game I love is flawed in ways that I ignored or looked past before but going back now and trying to see it with a more objective and critical eye has forced me to acknowledge them. I would recommend you try to look at it from a more central view. You believe the things it does well elevate it above its numerous flaws. You also believe that totally subjective things ("epic story", "great dialogue", etc.) are part of its greatness.

As someone else said, you are looking for validation not discussion. If you wanted discussion you would be willing to truly engage with the valid criticisms levied against and/or discuss the merits of the other games being suggested. Instead your response has mostly been to say the other poster is wrong and their game of choice is bad.

For what it's worth I think RDR is a great game, like 9/10 great but it isn't a transcendent experience for me.

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#106 Edited by chrispaul92 (105 posts) -
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#107 Posted by TobbRobb (6247 posts) -

@socurtoxanarosa:I was really trying to stay out of this but after reading through this thread I just couldn't. It has all the same problems that every Rockstar game has. The open-world seems massive but outside of the marked missions (and minigames) there isn't anything meaningful to do in it. Compare that to a game like Breath of the Wild where it feels like literally every few feet there is something to do or find. The shooting is better than most GTA games but still pales in comparison to the best 3rd person shooters (such as Gears of War). The story completely loses all semblance of pacing and urgency for the entire Mexico act. Much like every GTA game, it lasts 5-10 hours longer than it should and the pacing suffers as a result. Marston has the Nathan Drake problem of being a killer during gameplay while the narrative portrays him as a changed man and no longer in that life. The mission structure is either generic Rockstar/GTA missions or something new (such as herding) that lasts too long and isn't fun. The writing was fine but it's not The Last of Us. I love RDR but its still a Rockstar game and still has the same flaws that always plague that studio.

This is all very true. I'm a huge Clint Eastwood fan, I grew up with westerns and I love them to death. And just by those merits alone, RDR being BY FAR the best western game ever made elevates it for me into something I really enjoyed and value.

That said, it has all the issues that make me dislike Rockstars general output greatly. The heavy shitty movement, the awful gunplay, the pacing issues, bad checkpointing, bloated story content and lacking side content, focus on animation/realism over convenience or gameplay feel.... I think GTA games in general are not very good, LA Noir was pretty terrible and without my bias, RDR would 100% be in the same boat.

Also Symphony of The Night, Bayonetta or Journey are my top 3 picks for "of all time", which probably says a lot about me and my taste, but hey. However I do genuinely find those 3 to be the most distilled and pure forms of the games they aspired to be.

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#108 Posted by SethMode (592 posts) -

It's an excellent game but man...the story is completely incoherent in tone and wanders all over the place

I know that we aren't alone in this opinion (although I feel like we are few), but ups to you for this. The love the story gets despite being another preposterous Rockstar narrative frustrates me to this day.

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#109 Posted by Spoonman671 (5853 posts) -

There's never been a consensus that Vagrant Story is the greatest game of all time, so what hope does Red Dead Redemption have?

Also, it controls poorly.

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#110 Posted by Veektarius (6223 posts) -

All of the questgivers had intolerable dialogue. I wouldn't pick up RDR again unless someone paid me.

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#111 Edited by SloppyDetective (1304 posts) -

@socurtoxanarosa: you haven't bashed a game I like. But saying juvenile (and subjective) things like calling games "kiddie" based on art style while putting on an air of intellectualism and objective criticism is a style of hypocrisy I'm tired of seeing...especially in gaming.

Pixar has some of the best writing in movies; Nintendo has some of the best gameplay in video games. Both set standards and pushed their mediums forward regardless of the style those things are wrapped in.

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#112 Posted by SloppyDetective (1304 posts) -

A Louie C.K. quote just popped into my head after looking at this thread again: "It's not up to you if you're an asshole, it's up to everyone else."

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#113 Posted by ajamafalous (13632 posts) -

Judging by the tone of all of your responses, OP, I think you'll find you'd fit in much better on the GameFAQs boards

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#114 Edited by azulot (263 posts) -

Honestly, despite some of the childishness going on in this thread, this is what is kinda great about video games.

There are so many genres and playstyles that appeal to a variety of people. As others have said, GOAT is kind of a silly thing. We all have our own tastes and preferences and that's great. I'm personally intrigued by the likes and dislikes of others and neither of those need to have an effect on my own.

That being said, this is why there won't be a consensus. For there to be a consensus, a game would have to have mass appeal, a la Super Mario World or Tetris, both of which OP has rejected.

Don't let the favorites of others detract you from loving RDR. Also, don't keep telling people why they shouldn't like their favorite game. That doesn't work.

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#115 Posted by jakob187 (22940 posts) -

The reason that Red Dead Redemption is not the greatest game of all time...

...is because Vagrant Story exists.

Ain't that right, @fredchuckdave?

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#116 Posted by KingBonesaw (780 posts) -

Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3

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#117 Posted by Rigas (504 posts) -

There is not, nor will there ever be a single greatest game of all time. I love RDR, I love Mario World, I super love Vagrant Story.

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#118 Posted by flasaltine (2509 posts) -

Nah, Fez and The Witcher 3 are better.

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#119 Posted by kiwikuku (46 posts) -

Read Dead Redemption? What's that?

The greatest game of all time is Gothic 2.

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#120 Posted by musclerider (830 posts) -

I know I'm just beating a dead horse but I want to ride the game being boring and controlling poorly bandwagon. And also the "WOW SO WACKY AND GOOFY" side stories were dumb.

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#121 Posted by Calmgamer (331 posts) -

It's in my top 5 of all time.

Tough to get a meaningful consensus #1 in a field as varied as video game. Genres, era of release, age of players, gameplay vs. story......so many good games and too many factors. Kind of a good problem to have actually - embarrassment of riches.

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#122 Posted by Spoonman671 (5853 posts) -

There's never been a consensus that Vagrant Story is the greatest game of all time, so what hope does Red Dead Redemption have?

Also, it controls poorly.

@jakob187 said:

The reason that Red Dead Redemption is not the greatest game of all time...

...is because Vagrant Story exists.

Ain't that right, @fredchuckdave?

Beat you to it.

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#123 Edited by SocurToxanarosa (20 posts) -

@meteora3255 said:

@socurtoxanarosa:You also believe that totally subjective things ("epic story", "great dialogue", etc.) are part of its greatness.

As someone else said, you are looking for validation not discussion. If you wanted discussion you would be willing to truly engage with the valid criticisms levied against and/or discuss the merits of the other games being suggested. Instead your response has mostly been to say the other poster is wrong and their game of choice is bad.

Of course it's subjective, i said this myself already in this thread. I tried to start some discussions about other games, i talked about Resident Evil 4 having narratives problems, Mass Effect 2 lacking a story at all, i gave at least one or two reasons for most of the games i don't think are that good, just feel free to answer back and we'll have a discussion.

@tobbrobb said:
@meteora3255 said:

@socurtoxanarosa:Also Symphony of The Night, Bayonetta or Journey are my top 3 picks for "of all time", which probably says a lot about me and my taste, but hey. However I do genuinely find those 3 to be the most distilled and pure forms of the games they aspired to be.

Well, SotN while a great game, i think it's inferior to Super Metroid in almost every aspect. Journey never clicked with me, you'll understand this as you're a fan of the game. Bayonetta is one of my faves too.

@sloppydetective said:

@socurtoxanarosa: you haven't bashed a game I like. But saying juvenile (and subjective) things like calling games "kiddie" based on art style while putting on an air of intellectualism and objective criticism is a style of hypocrisy I'm tired of seeing...especially in gaming.

Pixar has some of the best writing in movies; Nintendo has some of the best gameplay in video games. Both set standards and pushed their mediums forward regardless of the style those things are wrapped in.

Based on art style? I beat Chrono Trigger.

@kiwikuku said:

Read Dead Redemption? What's that?

Don't know, only know Red Dead Redemption.

@sloppydetective said:

A Louie C.K. quote just popped into my head after looking at this thread again: "It's not up to you if you're an asshole, it's up to everyone else."

Let's make a poll.

@azulot said:

Honestly, despite some of the childishness going on in this thread, this is what is kinda great about video games.

There are so many genres and playstyles that appeal to a variety of people. As others have said, GOAT is kind of a silly thing. We all have our own tastes and preferences and that's great. I'm personally intrigued by the likes and dislikes of others and neither of those need to have an effect on my own.

That being said, this is why there won't be a consensus. For there to be a consensus, a game would have to have mass appeal, a la Super Mario World or Tetris, both of which OP has rejected.

Don't let the favorites of others detract you from loving RDR. Also, don't keep telling people why they shouldn't like their favorite game. That doesn't work.

I don't mate, nor i'm telling why they shouldn't like anything, i just say why i don't like it as much as they, just like they're doing the same about RDR, i'm seeing the problem here.

@calmgamer said:

It's in my top 5 of all time.

Tough to get a meaningful consensus #1 in a field as varied as video game. Genres, era of release, age of players, gameplay vs. story......so many good games and too many factors. Kind of a good problem to have actually - embarrassment of riches.

Nah, it should absolutely be a consensus. For christ sake guys, the consensus part is a joke.

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#124 Posted by TobbRobb (6247 posts) -

@socurtoxanarosa: Super Metroid is definitely the same tier as sotn for me. I just like the gothic style a bit more than the sci-fi. :P

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#125 Posted by konig_kei (989 posts) -

If a serious discussion were to be had I feel like most would eventually say World of Warcraft is the GOAT.

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#126 Edited by Onemanarmyy (2966 posts) -

Yeah let's present opinions on games as facts until everyone agrees. How about we all decide for ourself which games we like? Now if there was a well fleshed out post written that highlights what the game does better than anything else, there could be some meaningful discussion to this. But instead it's just

Character: awesome

Gameplay: awesome

Setting: awesome

Not much to talk about if that's all there is and other people's opinions are shoved away as kiddie games or bullshit. Like how do you even go about arguing that RDR is 1. 'the most realistic open world' game. (What other open world games have you played? what makes them less realistic?) And 2. That realism automatically makes an open world game better than an unrealistic open world game. (Is it automatically more fun to shoot humans than elves? Is riding a magic carpet automatically less fun than riding a horse?)

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#127 Posted by DarkeyeHails (410 posts) -

The only thing more tedious than this thread is the campaign for RDR.

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#128 Posted by s10129107 (1494 posts) -

The greatest sin a videogame or any other form of entertainment can commit is to be boring. This game is boring. Also there is a huge amount of dissonance between John's motivations and murdering everybody.

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#129 Posted by WynnDuffy (1289 posts) -

I thought the pacing was rotten but I liked it much more than GTA IV, boy that was a dumpster fire.

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#130 Posted by meteora3255 (526 posts) -
@meteora3255 said:

@socurtoxanarosa:You also believe that totally subjective things ("epic story", "great dialogue", etc.) are part of its greatness.

As someone else said, you are looking for validation not discussion. If you wanted discussion you would be willing to truly engage with the valid criticisms levied against and/or discuss the merits of the other games being suggested. Instead your response has mostly been to say the other poster is wrong and their game of choice is bad.

Of course it's subjective, i said this myself already in this thread. I tried to start some discussions about other games, i talked about Resident Evil 4 having narratives problems, Mass Effect 2 lacking a story at all, i gave at least one or two reasons for most of the games i don't think are that good, just feel free to answer back and we'll have a discussion.

You aren't actually levying any valid criticism because you haven't provided any real evidence to back up your claims. Your RE4 criticism was "Game has great action, but the narrative elements were totally silly and forgettable, even if intentional." Why did you find the narrative to be silly and forgettable, because many others didn't? Your Mass Effect 2 criticism was "Mass Effect 2 barely had a story, bunch of daddy issues unrelated side quests and one final mission." How does it barely have a story, because I vividly remember a very engaging story? Your Morrowind criticism was "Nah, Morrowind is only better then it awful sequels, Bethesda doesn't have the talent to create anything to enter in this discussion." Why isn't Morrowind worthy of being in this discussion. Even if the nature of the criticism is subjective you can still provide examples of why you felt a certain way.

Valid criticism would be me saying that the Mexico section of RDR slows the game to a crawl by having you do repetitive tasks, often making you travel long distances with nothing to do in between. You continue doing this over and over again until the game has completely lost its sense of urgency and they could have improved the pacing (and the entire plot) by shortening this section. I could also point out that Marston murders hundreds of people over the course of the game but the narrative glosses over that fact and portrays him outside of gameplay as hesitant to take lives. That creates a strain on the story because as a player you have to make Marston act counter to the way he is being portrayed. You don't have to agree with my assessment but I have provided some examples and explanation for why I feel the way I do. That can foster a discussion about why parts of the game clicked for you that didn't for someone else or why you feel these flaws are something that can be overlooked when judging the game as a whole.

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#131 Posted by pause422 (6334 posts) -

its not.

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#132 Posted by Markus1395 (55 posts) -

Boy, this thread is a real trainwreck. Nevertheless, I'll humor you. I'm a masochist, I guess.

It should go without saying that the following is all nothing more than my opinion:

I think RDR is a fine game if you are into Rockstar's style. That said, Rockstar has some issues that are prevalent in pretty much every game they've made since GTA III. As other people in the thread mentioned, their gunplay has almost always been pretty weak. I think they're just finally starting to get the hang of it with GTA V, but they're still not fully there yet. I personally would say that I don't think RDR controls particularly great. Not terrible, but not amazing.

Having played through most of what Rockstar has put out since GTA III, I don't think they're story telling is anything amazing, either. It's 90% pulp. Fluff. It's cinematic, well told fluff, but it's mostly a regurgitation of of better, more interesting cinema. It hardly ever presents any grander ideas than "Hey, this shit is cool, yo"; it's fun stuff that you can turn your brain off for. If you're along for the ride, it can be good fun. If you are looking for something more challenging in its concepts, however, you are going to come away disappointed in most of what Rockstar has put out. I don't think any video game narrative has ever been perfect, certainly, but there's stuff out there that has at least sparked my imagination or got me thinking about the wider themes that the games deal with. Rockstar games just tend to make me want to watch the movies they're so obviously inspired by; in my eyes, they have always been standing on the shoulders of giants, and never presented anything new or incredible. I'd be far better served watching a few spaghetti westerns than playing RDR, if it was only story I was after.

I mean, it's awesome if RDR is your favorite game. Just like any art form, be it music, movies, or anything else; any single piece of work in the medium is probably someone's favorite. A bit hyperbolic, perhaps, but you get where I'm coming from. Opinions are never wrong; by their very nature, they can't be. You are, obviously, more then welcome to disagree with me, and I would only hope that you would have some decent arguments as to why you do, as opposed to just shutting what I said out and disregarding it wholesale.

So it's great if you think RDR is the best game ever, but there's no way in hell I'll ever agree with you. I would quite literally rather play Red Dead Revolver over Red Dead Redemption, as I have far fonder memories of the former than the latter. It probably doesn't hold up, though. Oh well.

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#133 Posted by geirr (3454 posts) -

I didn't like the game, basically. Mexico had me bored to the breaking point so I stopped there.

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#134 Edited by Hippie_Genocide (2083 posts) -

I like RDR quite a lot. Greatest game ever? No, probably not. It's a shame so many got baited into criticizing a great game. There's something about that game that brings the contrarians out of the woodwork. Like it's their duty to restore order to gaming universe.

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#135 Edited by AdequatelyPrepared (2521 posts) -

'Mr. Modarechev, tear down this thread!' - Reagan, probably.

@blackichigo: I genuinely think that vanilla P4 is better than Golden, but I could just be a crazy person. If Golden had been more restrained in a lot of it's additions to 4, especially when it came to throwing just about every SoL schoollife anime trope into the mix and the overblown amounts of protagonist dicksucking, it could have been a very clear step up. As it stands, it's a mixed recommendation from me, with vanilla just feeling like a more cohesive, structured game.

Serious talk: this thread is about something i believe, with some intentional hyperbole to cause some banter, take it as a light hearted discussion, no reason to get mad like some people here, if you don't like RDR and think it's trash, fine, I'll just answer back because i made the thread to begin with. Cheers.

No Caption Provided

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#136 Posted by xanadu (1486 posts) -

You have to agree that my opinion about your bad opinion is true or else.

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#137 Edited by TechnoSyndrome (1405 posts) -

Pretty boring game to actually play, I gave up partway into Mexico. Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I think the best video game of all time should be something where the game part is more than just okay.

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#138 Posted by BeachThunder (14780 posts) -

Serious talk: how is this troll thread still here?

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#139 Posted by cikame (2017 posts) -

I admire your conviction, but my personal preferences dictate that either Half Life 2, Devil May Cry 4 or Max Payne are the best games of all time :P.
Trying to ignore myself though, i guess i'd say Ocarina of Time? You can probably argue against it and compare it to other games that did things better at the time, but it's hard to argue against the sheer number of people who adore that game, the staff here at GB always refer to the N64 as being an ugly system, but OoT is always exempt from those conversations, it both defines and defies its own system and there arn't many games that do that.

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#140 Edited by WillyOD (167 posts) -

Strange thing about this game I've always ended up playing poker in the nearby saloon. I've never played the actual game for more than an hour. I've started maybe three times. Just yesterday I was thinking of starting this game and plowing through it. Who knows I just might pick it up today, I also might just end up playing poker again.

This is the game I've been dreaming of since I was a little child (about 30 years ago I had an idea of a western game). Asked my dad for it, he said he knew someone who could make it, or somehow he could get a game like that for me (can't remember that part for certain) for a present. Never got that game, what a worthless dad (in other ways also) he turned out to be.

In short, if this was the best game ever, I think I would have played it by now :)

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#141 Posted by jakob187 (22940 posts) -

@spoonman671 said:

There's never been a consensus that Vagrant Story is the greatest game of all time, so what hope does Red Dead Redemption have?

Also, it controls poorly.

@jakob187 said:

The reason that Red Dead Redemption is not the greatest game of all time...

...is because Vagrant Story exists.

Ain't that right, @fredchuckdave?

Beat you to it.

THERE'S A THIRD?!

You are officially a member of the "Vagrant Story Is The Greatest Game Ever Made Club." @fredchuckdave, myself, and you are the only three members. We have a secret handshake and everything!

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#142 Posted by Slag (7574 posts) -

The idea of a clear consensus on a greatest game of all time is ridiculous. People like all sorts of different genres, somebody isn't going to concede RDR as the best game if their idea of a great game is a Flight Sim for example.

I also doubt you'd even get people to agree that RDR is the greatest open world game of all time (according to Metacritic the answer to that is either GTA IV or Ocarina of Time if you consider Zelda to be open world).

I mean if you really want to get down to it, the real GOAT probably going to be Tetris due its ubiquity, influence and universal appeal and even that would be divisive.

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#143 Edited by coaxmetal (1824 posts) -

@slag said:

The idea of a clear consensus on a greatest game of all time is ridiculous. People like all sorts of different genres, somebody isn't going to concede RDR as the best game if their idea of a great game is a Flight Sim for example.

I also doubt you'd even get people to agree that RDR is the greatest open world game of all time (according to Metacritic the answer to that is either GTA IV or Ocarina of Time if you consider Zelda to be open world).

I mean if you really want to get down to it, the real GOAT probably going to be Tetris due its ubiquity, influence and universal appeal and even that would be divisive.

Came here to post this basically. It's awesome to have your own favorites but the idea of a consensus favorite is silly. I don't even like goty picks, tbh, its a meaningless argument. People have unique experiences with games and there isn't any reasonable way to say "my experience with game X was better than yours with game Y"

Anyway Planescape Torment is the greatest game of all time.

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#144 Edited by OldManLight (1320 posts) -

i'm just thankful that we have enough great games out there that we don't just have to point to one game in unison as "THE Greatest game of all time". Red Dead is one of my favorite games but i'd not think someone crazy for saying something else is the greatest game of all time. It definitely makes my top 20.

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#145 Posted by FinalDasa (3112 posts) -

While I appreciate the attempt at real discussion about Red Dead in this thread, a lot of what is being posted adds nothing of value to the conversation.

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