Cool game, AWFUL boss design

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#1 Posted by bakoomerang (206 posts) -

I'm having a pretty good time with it for the most part, but holy crap do the boss fights suck! The constant ad spawning is the only thing that makes them difficult, but not in a fun way, just in an extremely annoying way. It's a real bummer they couldn't design more interesting boss fights instead of having to rely on something so cheap and uninspired to artificially boost the difficulty.

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#2 Edited by Zeik (5241 posts) -

It bothered me at first, but eventually I learned how to deal with it, and got more tools to make it easier, like the aggro plant. The last major boss I fought was this huge tree that spawned adds in a relatively set pattern and I thought that fight was pretty well designed for a solo fight. The adds were definitely a big reason the fight was difficult, but you could prepare for them and learn from the fight. Every attempt I felt like I learned more and got closer to beating it, which is the sign of a good fight imo. The fights with seemingly unending adds are less fun, but still manageable.

Mostly I think it's a concession for being a multiplayer focused game, because a huge issue in Souls games was always that bosses became an absolute joke once you brought other people along. But those adds ensure that multiplayer bosses are still a real threat in Remnant. There's probably a better middle ground between Dark Souls and Remnant than where they landed, but I don't think it's a terrible first attempt.

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#3 Edited by BoOzak (2685 posts) -

I think the ads exist mainly as a means to funnel you more ammo, otherwise they would have to peroidically spawn ammo on shelves and shit which would be worse in my opinion. There is one boss fight that doesnt have ads near the end where they solve that problem in a different way, but prior to the fight they give you a couple of ammo crates as if to say 'you might run out of ammo here'.

This might be a weird comparison but even games like Destiny and the Division shower you with ads to give you ammo. I feel like the main reason people didnt complain with those was because they werent constantly being compared to Dark Souls.

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#4 Edited by bakoomerang (206 posts) -

I get that ads have a purpose. My issue with them in this game is that they seem to be relying on them to provide the challenge during boss fights. Otherwise, they'd be pretty straight forward (at least the ones I've seen so far, granted I'm still in the first world). I just think it's a shame the boss fights aren't inherently more interesting/challenging in and of themselves. Admittedly I was venting a bit having just beaten Singe after about 15 attempts!

I should also point out I've been playing solo, which probably made it more of an issue for me.

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#5 Edited by BoOzak (2685 posts) -

I also played through it solo, (judging by the quicklook it doesnt look that much easier in co-op) and I agree that without the ads the bosses (except the one I mentioned earlier) would be easy, but the same could be said for bosses in a lot of other shooters. I wouldnt call it bad design but thats obviously subjective. I will admit that some of the bosses seem like lazy reskins of special enemies though.

I'm curious what you would have wanted out of the boss fights in this game? Do you have any examples of boss fights in shooters that require ammo management that are good and not overly reliant on ads? I dont mean to put you on trial or anything, I love good boss fights as much as anyone but I feel like boss fights in shooters (that arent arcadey) tend to not be as good as melee based action games. (which is why I spent so much more time with Monster Hunter than any shlooter)

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#6 Edited by bakoomerang (206 posts) -

Yeah, I guess I don't really have a good answer. It's a tricky problem to solve. I thought about it and I think my problem with the ads in this game is due to it being a shooter that also has a stamina mechanic, so you can't even always create the space you need between them and you. Maybe that's why it feels worse in this compared to other shooters?

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#7 Edited by BoOzak (2685 posts) -

That could be it. I rocked the cultist outfit pretty much the entire game, which is light, so maybe that's why I didnt find it as oppressive.

That reminds me though, did you play Vanquish? That was a game that I liked but had a lot of the same problems that you brought up, including stamina management, in it's own weird way.

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#8 Posted by KillEm_Dafoe (2666 posts) -

I'm inclined to agree. Some of the boss fights are still pretty enjoyable in spite of this being the case. However, it seems like too many of them were designed for multiple people to tackle, making doing them on your own a fucking nightmare. I've been stuck on The Undying King, which has to be one of the cheapest bullshit boss fights I've seen in recent memory. Ads spawn constantly, often off screen, and you almost never get a chance to heal or use any other items. Nothing about the fight is fair or fun.

I don't think having ads in boss fights is inherently bad. But yeah, I think this game is overly reliant on them as they tend to do sometimes more damage and are a greater danger than the bosses themselves. In contrast with other shooter boss fights, Borderlands 2 and TPS boss fights are pretty well-designed. They usually have ads but are rarely the focus of the fight. Depending on your play style, ammo management might not necessarily be a factor but it is part of the game to an extent. One upgrade I really wish Remnant had, which it very well may and I just haven't seen it yet, is the ability to upgrade max ammo capacity. Automatic weapons chew through ammo like no tomorrow.

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#9 Posted by Admiral_Crunch (88 posts) -

@killem_dafoe: I've been stuck on The Undying King, which has to be one of the cheapest bullshit boss fights I've seen in recent memory

Yeah, that fucker almost made me quit the game, but I was finally able to take him down solo. The real bullshit part doesn't happen till you think you've killed him....

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#10 Posted by KillEm_Dafoe (2666 posts) -

@admiral_crunch: I haven't played in a few days, but I still haven't beaten him. I've put in a good 50 attempts overall. I went to grind some materials and upgraded a bunch of weapons, got a bunch of of skill points, still wasn't able to do it. I've been playing co-op with my buddy in his game, which is been completely different from mine. I have a bunch of new weapons I didn't have before. Maybe those will help? But I was waiting until we get to attempt that fight together. Solo...it's just completely unmanageable. I did manage to deplete his entire health bar ONCE, but I already knew what was coming due to watching a bunch of videos on YouTube, lol.

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#12 Posted by Sergiy (58 posts) -

I think they're pretty well designed in that they are actually fun and every time you die you feel like you've learned something, gotten better in some way and are ready to jump right back in.

The fights seem designed as resource and aggro management exercises, pick your battles, always be moving, use the correct gun at every stage, etc.

That said, the Undying King fight was truly something, it stopped my progress for a good few days until I finally managed it, and damn it was close.

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