@danryckert You mentioned Vegeta being a bad husband in this episode but he and Bulma aren't actually married, they just had a one night stand when he was back on Earth at some point and then he bailed into space for another year.
I really like the way that Dragon Ball handles time travel in that you cannot change the future, rather, tinkering with the past creates alternate timelines. That's a unique way of handling it, as far as I know.
I have a feeling that Dan and Jeff are really going to enjoy the next batch of episodes. There's a lot of intrigue and storytelling to come.
For those who don't know, this part of the story is well known for the interference Toriyama got from his former editor. Androids 19 and 20 were supposed to be the evil androids from the future all along, but when they were revealed, the editor called Toriyama to say "What, an old man and a fatso? Make more intimidating villains". That resulted in the plot moving onto 16, 17 and 18, but when the editor saw them, he called again to complain saying "now they're just a bunch of children". That led into Cell's introduction, and the editor called once more to say "he can transform, right?".
You've probably been shot this message on Twitter before, but 17 and 18 are actually Cyborgs. So they're not just 'made from human parts', but humans who have been cybernetically enhanced.
For those who don't know, this part of the story is well known for the interference Toriyama got from his former editor. Androids 19 and 20 were supposed to be the evil androids from the future all along, but when they were revealed, the editor called Toriyama to say "What, an old man and a fatso? Make more intimidating villains". That resulted in the plot moving onto 16, 17 and 18, but when the editor saw them, he called again to complain saying "now they're just a bunch of children". That led into Cell's introduction, and the editor called once more to say "he can transform, right?".
This is a little incorrect. Kazuhiko Torishima, Toriyama's first editor during all of Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball up until the introduction of King Piccolo did voice some disinterest in the villains but he was not in any way telling Toriyama to change it as he wasn't his editor any more. He called 17 and 18 "some brats" and that lead to Cell being introduced but it was Toriyama's actual current at that time editor, Yū Kondō, who said that Cell was ugly and in Toriyama's words said; "Of course, he can transform"
@redking56: I've always wondered if he actually dies in the original version and they added in his line for the English dub, or if he still cries out after the explosion in both versions.
@redking56:My mistake, thanks for clarifying. I couldn't remember which editor was which either, so I just omitted any names.
@neely: The truck driver? He's super dead. As far as I'm aware, the "DUDE MY TRUCK" line was a TV censor implying that he didn't die that somehow made it onto the bluray releases.
The "other shows get up their own ass" comment made me mildly confused as to what he inferred from the preview. Does he think a second Trunks is going to show up or like some other character from the timeline doubling back?
Just gotta say I've been missing out on reading these comments from earlier episodes, 'cut ya'll got some wildly niche knowledge on things Toriyama said and did back when DB was being written.
Man, the fact that this batch of episodes are so slow at getting to the point makes the wait for ASG #15 even harder. I can see why they weren't too pleased with what direction the show is *seemingly* taking for this arc.
Also I don't recall the androids saying they wanted to fly somewhere to get attention, it was just flying somewhere that wasn't a deserted road so they could find a car to steal. They do say that Goku might come to them if they "get wild enough" though so I guess if their hunt was fruitless they'd just start messing things up.
For those who don't know, this part of the story is well known for the interference Toriyama got from his former editor. Androids 19 and 20 were supposed to be the evil androids from the future all along, but when they were revealed, the editor called Toriyama to say "What, an old man and a fatso? Make more intimidating villains". That resulted in the plot moving onto 16, 17 and 18, but when the editor saw them, he called again to complain saying "now they're just a bunch of children". That led into Cell's introduction, and the editor called once more to say "he can transform, right?".
This is a little incorrect. Kazuhiko Torishima, Toriyama's first editor during all of Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball up until the introduction of King Piccolo did voice some disinterest in the villains but he was not in any way telling Toriyama to change it as he wasn't his editor any more. He called 17 and 18 "some brats" and that lead to Cell being introduced but it was Toriyama's actual current at that time editor, Yū Kondō, who said that Cell was ugly and in Toriyama's words said; "Of course, he can transform"
It's interesting to speculate what the arc would have ended up as if the original plan was kept.
They're starting to sound pretty down by the end of this one - wonder how the rest of the podcast run is going to go since it's pretty much all a downhill slide story-quality-wise from here on out IMO. But the wildcard is that both of these guys are able to watch wrestling, one even enjoying it - so I don't know what to expect.
@garr123: I imagine that is what he is thinking, or that he thinks the second time machine means there is a second Future Trunks running around (such as this one but one that was further in the timeline who tried to go back even further in the past and things still went wrong) or one that is going to show up.
@cyberspacecat: Yeah, this batch is rough since it spends two entire episodes just getting to Gero's lab, not to mention that, as Dan and Jeff mention, a lot of stupid stuff happens in order to allow Gero to even make it back at all. Gero would have needed to have Solar Flare to use to get away, the way Imperfect Cell uses it to get away from Piccolo and the others, but then that would have taken away Cell's whole gimmick of having the fighters' moves, not to mention that Cell did not actually exist in Toriyama's mind yet, so that thought likely had not even occurred to him yet. Maybe it would have been interesting if 19 and 20 had the moves of the characters from Dragon Ball (minus Piccolo's regeneration because it "took a bio android to get it to work properly") and then Cell had Piccolo, Vegeta, Frieza, and Future Trunks.
Hopefully Jeff and Dan like where this eventually goes, considering this isn't as formulaic as it might seem at first. Goku doesn't wake up/arrive and beat the badguy. In fact, he actually doesn't fight until the very end, and even then, well, you know.
@netkitten: With how slow Super can be, I think, at a certain point, they would get tired of the filler episodes and lack of forward-moving plot progression, as even the actual, "significant" episodes are often fairly slow with very little going on. I would argue the Goku Black saga is the only one with an "actual" storyline and that eventually becomes a long, drawn-out fight like the Frieza fight on Namek (especially when it eventually becomes "Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks go to the future and get beat and come back to the present; Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks go to the future and get beat but cannot come back to the present so they hide; Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks get beat again; Goku and Vegeta fuse but then ultimately accomplish nothing while fused; Trunks wins with his Spirit Bomb-esque sword slash but that ultimately does nothing either; Xeno has to come in and "fix" everything by erasing that timeline completely). If they got that tired of the Frieza fight, I do not see the Universe 6 vs. Universe 7 tournament or the Tournament of Power holding their interest (U6 vs U7 has like two episodes worth watching and the Tournament of Power has like three to five episodes worth watching out of, what, 40+?). If they make it to "The Final Chapters", I would not be surprised if they were to tap out not long after Majin Buu is released.
I watched through 81 or 82, it seems like the characters in this get progressively dumber and dumber. I'll be surprised if Jeff musters the energy to power through beyond that.
135 Comments