Giant Bombcast Game of the Year 2017: Best Moment or Sequence

Can we use this one, or will it be replaced?

@nickfoley: Replaced with what?

Just noticed something while skimming through the last third of this podcast.

It feels extremly weird for me that nobody seems to talk about the fact that Ending E has you, the player, and others who sacrificed their saves to help people (and potentially you, too) shoot the literal names of the developers who created the entire thing. The chracters, the world, the story, all NPCs, the sound and music, literally everything this game offers to the player sort of gets the direct middle finger in that sequence.

Its fairly obvious that they could've done a similar thing with similar impact but with simple geometrical objects, perhaps reminiscent of the arcade hacking game. But they didn't, they've chosen to deliberatly picking the credit sequence for the final standout between you the player and the game. In context that means that you're basically crushing this endless circle of pain created by the devs (gods) themselves of suffering by your own hands with the help of those who've also sacrificed everything (their saves) in order to help you.

This means that the entire blame is put on the developers for creating this game as you're shooting their names to end the endless circle of pain, which makes sense in context of Nier: AM functioning as a piece of video game criticism. The games message delivery basically is: "Fuck this sad story and setting and everything it stands for, and fuck you, you fucking idiot devs for creating this shit!". And this wouldn't make sense if they replaced the devs names with simplistic geometrical objects.

I feel like when Vinny said "Remember Pascal" he was really on-the-nose on that one. Pascal serves as the most major example on the storywriters were just taking the piss on the subject of happiness. Yet that robot certainly knew whats up but the games story(writers) just didn't want allow for such a character to stay happy and that him and his peers strife for a better future as the games setting was too extreme for that sort of thing. Thats primarily because the storywriters wanted Pascal to suffer and they certainly wanted Pascal to fail their mission.

The last laugh however had the player in shooting the names of everyone working on this game while breaking the endless circle and striving for a better future for those who still live on within the game. So in the end, it was Pascal who was correct the entire time! If you work hard towards a thing and even if the chances may be slim, you can certainly have an positive impact to the world no matter how big or small it might be, its the importance of positivity in the face of adversity that counts.

So within the constrains of the setting you're literally breaking through the constructed reality that the developers made during years of development to create the final and best ending for the game by your own choosing regardless of what the previous 30-60 hours you've spend with the game told you before.

I mean its still kinda ironic considering that even such an ending is created by the developers beforehand, which is why letting the player choose their own willingness to sacrifice their save is important as its questioning the player directly for having them to even want a better world or not and they can just choose not to strife for a positive future themselves, even if other people believe otherwise.

EDIT: Having written this but listened to others I still feel like I'm not really wrong here. Considering some, or even most of the meta aspects in Nier: AM should be clearly seen as a message that we can do better. The people playing games, the developers, everyone!

I think it goes without saying that Ending E is one of the most impactful scenes that people have seen in the last few years and while it serves as a ultimate reward for "suffering" through the games sad parts, which ultimately exist because Platinum and Yoko Taro designed this game to make the player feel helpless before the ending.

I believe thats what everyone can agree on, at least it seems that way considering on how the staff talked about the themes of the game specifically it surely leaves enough room for consideration and interpretation (though, not that much as it should I feel like). At least it seems like that people enjoyed this write up so I think I didn't fully wasted time here, hehe.

Ending Es strongest point which is also its weakest point is that it takes over 30 hours to get to this ending. However its a really fitting wrap-up for this video game considering to all the things happening before but also what the game is trying to convey to you. Its also neat that the comment section didn't turn into like into a complete disaster, good that many people even though they're not fully agreeing with the staff are still not objecting with hostility.

Haven't watched this one yet, but do they acknowledge Yakuza 0?

@johnymyko yes

I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but...

Hearing fans of Nier talk about Nier just sounds like children talking about their favorite cartoons, except there's always the undertone that there's something *deep*, *serious*, and *knowing* happening in Nier. The writing in Nier is being way oversold. Yoko Taro's writing is hit or miss, often a bit infantile, and is more often surface-level deep than it is really thought-provoking. I just can't get behind any sort of high-falutin talk about this game. It sounds childish. Nier is fine, even GOOD at times, but nothing revelatory and deserving of the kind of reverence it gets from fans.

Agreed, though I found the act of playing Nier to be terrible, and the story didn't seem great just ok.

@doncabesa: Exactly how I felt. I thought the gameplay was a total chore. Every now and then I got a story snippet that I thought was interesting, but never really got explored that much. Now that I think about it, I think I had an abusive relationship with Nier. It kept me around by drip-feeding trivial story tidbits to me.

I hate that Edith Finch cannery sequence. To take that story and end it with nothing but condescending pity for the character speaks to profound failures of writing. (That the writers are wealthy SoCal dwellers and the character is a lowly cannery worker adds an additional unsavory bit of classism to the imbroglio.)

that's cool that a game can end up being so philosophical. I wish i could just enjoy the game a bit more, and not just constantly suck at it. I thought the story in the first play through was interesting enough, i just kind of fell off after i had ending E spoiled, back when i first bought it.

You should check out the Alex, Austin and Patrick's NieR spoilercast and why the game is so beloved and why it made such a big impact on a lot of people. Even if you don't care about the themes in the game, I think the way that game ends is what makes video games as a medium something special and why I personally play video games.

I played the entire thing, I don't need other people to tell me the ok story I experienced is somehow magically better than I found it to be personally just because they read different things into it than I did.

That's cool. I liked it because it's so open to interpretation and how it ended, but of course it's not something others might be looking for in a game.

On the other hand, saying "it's like children talking about their favorite cartoons" is not fair and not accurate at all. It brushes off the passion people have about that game in a very negative and unnecessary way.

No need to be hostile here, we all play and like games for different reasons.

I.E. the entire experience of interacting with Nier:A fandom. When you say you didn't like the story, someone will inevitably give you a desultory synopsis of the plot and themes of Nier:A.

"Let me tell you about why the robots are sad. I'm not sure you understood. See, the robots are fighting a war and they're programmed to fight a war and the other robots are robots, too, but they want to be more human like the other robots and they have to fight a war, too. In the end, they all feel kind of sad that they're programmed to fight a war forever and they say, oh, we don't have to anymore and the robots are less sad, but somehow still sad, and also some are dead, but they come back to life, just like they did a thousand times during this endless war, so nothing really has any consequence anyways. Anyway, you need to explore the backstory of the original Nier to really understand what's going on, which was a game I didn't play, but read the plot synopsis of on a Wiki. Also, the game isn't fun until the ending. Really, it's about what you put into it. It's not for everyone."

If you played Nier Automata and didn't find any deeper meaning to the events, story, or characters, it's because you weren't looking for deeper meaning. It's literally impossible to go through that game intending to analyze the elements of the game and not come away with some of the themes and psychology Nier presents to you. Like with Ending E since I just got done watching the discussion and it's really fresh in my mind, the whole concept of breaking the loop has many meanings. There's breaking the loop for the story and the factions who are stuck in this endless cycle of war and every time progress is made the reset button is hit, fulfilling another run of a Sisyphean task, but it's also breaking the loop of life and death for these characters that they were doing in a Groundhog Day style hell that they could never realize until it was too late, but ADDITIONALLY it's a meta reference to breaking the loop of beating the game and seeing the credits, beating the game and seeing the credits, beating the game and seeing the credits that every gamer does with every game, as if the goal of every game is to simply see the credits and once you have your task is complete, and Nier revels in this by making you beat the game multiple times creating this meta cycle within the game itself. When you break the cycle by not just seeing the credits, but by BEATING the credits, it's this deep moment in gaming as a medium where the credits stop being the sign of a job well done, the credits become part of the experience and the Nier experience does not end with the credits, there's still more to do, more to see, and once you give up your data, your experience will live on after you've stopped playing to be a part of someone else's story. It's a commentary on the nature of playing video games but it goes beyond simply mentioning this idea, it flips the concept on its head. Yoko Taro does this constantly in his works, even going all the way back to Drakengard 1 where he took on the notion of a main character who runs around killing hundreds of thousands of people being called a hero. The entire game is chock full of moments like this, to have never seen any of it shows a lack of searching.

@subscryber: What you've written is just another indicator about why Video Games aren't nowhere near the path of an actual story that is actually fantastic. That means that theres still lots of potential to create an downright excellent story for a video game.

However, I don't agree that people sound like children. Sure there is some dumb fanraving about the game you see here and there on the internet and that the circlejerk is strong. Beside that I agree that Nier: AM is not really deep and often shows you things directly.

I'm actually on Abbys boat here, Nier (and Nier: AM) sometimes (or often, depending on where you're coming from) feels like your typical epic jRPG stuff and is quite manipulative (which Rami Ismael also stated on his GOTY list). But as others said, it often comes down to a personal thing rather than a question about wholly objective qualities.

I think its cool that people interpret the game in a few different ways here and there. Sometimes its because of personal stuff but sometimes its not I feel like. However, I do agree that Yoko Taro games often always presents anything in front of you after setting the world up the way it is, without leaving much room for any other interpretation or even discussion and thats bad writing.

It would've been better to actually continue the general themes of the game, just like a game like The Witcher 3 did. This results on Nier: AM feeling like its all over the place without that much substance. Personally, I've seen Nier: AM more as a meta commentary regarding video games in general rather than a wholly flashed out video game. It works way better that way rather than reading it like it has an amazing story for a video game. I think its up to the player whether or not they believe this game has a amazing story. I think it is good in parts but not always.

Or in other words, I think that the "uniqueness" of Nier: AM is its strongest point. People didn't fully expect what Nier: AM does and when they saw what it does they felt impressed in one way or the other.

But besides all of this, it kinda grinds my gears when people say stuff akin to "Nier: AM is the greatest thing ever made!" which in this year of some really fantastic video game releases just feels absolutely hyperbolic and also kinda like they're lying.

EDIT: Fixed and added a few things here and there.

@johnxuandou: Wrong.

I'm not being hostile. The talk around Nier: A is emblematic of gaming's attachment to pseudo-intellectualism. I'm okay with talking about Nier as an interesting piece of art, but as an exploration of philosophical concepts, it is utterly amateurish and ham-fisted. When you elevate it to this level of profundity, you look a bit silly, and that's what looks childish. It seems to me like a grasping for relevancy from the artistically-minded gamer, "See! Videogames are important and profound! Only in this medium!" We're just not there yet, and Nier is a poor example of us reaching that point, at least from a narrative perspective. And from that "meta" perspective that is so attached to the conversation around Nier, too.

@Subscryber Brilliant retort. Really doing a great job of backing your argument that people who found deeper meaning in Nier are children.

Glad Nier won, totally deserved it. I’ll read & hear people’s complaints about it. Everyone has the right to be wrong.

No, quite the opposite, really. I was looking for something of far greater depth than what I got, based on how people talked about the game. And yes, I played the entire thing...

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think the way the story is told and structured (different chapters and viewpoints, the way it ties up and the themes it touches on) is quite profound, well executed and unique in the video gaming world.

There is always room to improve and I can't wait what the future holds, but NieR did a significant step in the right direction of what I personally invision video games could become.

I didn't say they're children. I said the excitable, high-falutin talk about a thing that isn't necessarily deserving of such reverence is akin to children excitably talking about things that aren't actually that interesting if you have a little more perspective. So, yes, it's probably a bit insulting, which I prefaced, but it's just a metaphor to express how I feel about the dialog surrounding Nier. I don't think people are children for liking Nier. I do think they might lack a little perspective on philosophy and writing in general if they talk in grand terms about it, though. Anyway, that's my last word on the matter. I know how these conversations go, and I know I'm pretentious as fuck.

Majima's debut may very well be my favorite moment or sequence in videogames ever.

I'll be the first to admit I did not get Nier. I found the story to be convoluted. I found no way to delve deeper because I could not even grasp what it wanted to tell me on the outside. I may very well just be dumb as a brick though, or I just felt so disinterested in what it was trying to say that I sort of ignored it all.

Lets close this strong.

I'm just glad that somebody in the team pointed out the deleting the save gag on Automata is recycled from the previous Nier and makes less sense here.

I'm in the camp of those who think Automata isn't great to play and it's mostly just fine, but then I did play Nier, so I wasn't quite as shocked at all the narrative tricks Yoko Taro has been, let's be honest, pulling for a decade and a half. Which is not to say they're bad tricks, just... you know, they're out there.

If anything, I'm a tad bummed at how much Nier being polarizing is focusing the conversation. I kinda want to talk about Zelda more. Or Horizon. Man, is there a game more shortchanged this year than Horizon? It's erased by Zelda on its beautiful, intriguing open world, and by Nier on its interesting, thoughtful postapocalyptic setting. And it really doesn't deserve it.

I really could not stand Eventide Island. Every time you died you would have to start the whole island over with nothing. So I say fuck Eventide Island.

Wow, I'm bummed that New Donk didn't make the final 3. I agree with everything Jeff said about it, I lost my shit when I saw it and it was my moment of the year for sure.

Not that long but that's ok. Niers my favourite game this year but you're right on Horizon being shortchanged. Couldn't disagree more on what you said about Zelda though, ALTTP is my all time favourite game and BOTW was just a boring mess.

I really like that cannery sequence. I just left wondering what the hell happened to Molly the calico cat ( who only shows up on that sequence). Did they took her with them? Did she stay with the Grandma and got abandoned after she was taken away? What happened to Molly...:(

How did the main character in P5 getting executed in an interrogation cell not make at least a mention?

I wonder if they could have gotten away with it if the ending of E would have actually deleted your copy of the game, which would have really ended the cycle. It seems like something just crazy enough to do and a step bigger than the last Nier. But since they couldn't they went with the delete the save thing.

Dan Ryckert is the epitome of Taylor Swift celebrating the end of 2017.

Seeing people so mad about Nier being a good video game they have to challenge people's intelligence is really fucking funny.

I love how disgusted Abby is when the guys discuss Nier lol

When Jeff was referencing seeing Jason play the end of Nier earlier, was that on a stream? Or maybe they recorded it for the videos coming out this week. Just checking as I haven’t seen it.

Not liking NieR: Automata is just dandy. Opinions and all that. But don't tell me what I took away from it isn't valid actually, or is facile, or that I didn't really have the profound experience I had, or that if I did it's because I have a childish understanding of art or philosophy.

Opinions! I really loved Nier, and the route E thing was awesome to me, but I'm with Vinny and Ben the REAL winner is Pascaul's Arc. Admittedly not including that Mario sequence here is CRAZY! At the same time (and this may go without saying) all of the moments they chose and talked about were incredible!

I've already previously written about the differences between the ultimate endings of Nier and Automata.

To make it short, those two endings, while having the same surface mechanics, achieve far different ends. For Nier, the erasure is the game's critique of our obsession with collection in games. There is a reason why accessing it requires the unlocking of all weapons in the game. Automata's version of that ending is not Ending E, but rather the ability to purchase trophies.

Ending E on the other hand is a challenge to the player's altruism. It costs nothing to be given access to the choice, and the choice is not designed to achieve a goal, but rather repaying someone else's kindness for you.

Both endings may result in the deletion of your save, but have entirely different messages, and result in entirely different emotional responses.

Was Jason playing through Ending E a Unprofessional Friday thing? If it is, does anyone have a link?

I really like Abby and am glad for all of her contributions to the site, but the way she brings up other people's additions to the list and says it should be cut before they've had a chance to make their case seems unfair to the process.

I don't think any of this is that profound. Nier Automata had a lot of cool ass moments, it was a great game, and the ways that it played with different gameplay styles between the hacking, spectacle fighter, shoot em up etc was awesome. But I really think that people elevate the gravity of the game's philosophical aspects to a point of absurdity. A lot of it isn't really all that groundbreaking. And some of it is like high-school-philosophy-class-in-an-anime level of philosophy.

Maybe it's just the expectations I had of some of this stuff when everyone is raving about it, but none of the philosophical questions that game poses are next-level.

Edit - Btw, after writing this, I see I'm late to the party on this discussion, but w/e. The above is my feelings on it without intention to partake in any existing drama or any new one. If it makes anyone feel better (lol), I have the same kind of response to Blade Runner 2049, I think that's a fine movie but it's massively overrated and not nearly as impactful or ahead-of-the-game as OG Blade Runner. If you want qualification for overrated, look at some best-of-the-year movie lists, really don't care that use of that word is oft frowned upon, I'm not going to go to the trouble of skirting that to share a thought on any sort of nerdy ass thing that's part of a hobby culture that all of us love.

Something like Nier can and will resonate with people in different ways and intensities. It's okay if you didn't have the same experience with it as someone else, but there's no reason to try to elevate your position or opinion as greater than another person's.

I'm probably a terrible person, but i actually used cheatengine to beat Nier's Route E.

Listen, I know that nobody on the current Giant Bomb Staff was super into Golf Story and I didn't expect it to get mentioned in Best Moment. However, if they did get far enough into in, they'd know that a stand out moment is a rap battle between a wealthy old man and a hip hop millennial. It wouldn't win even if it was brought up, but worth mentioning:

@delitist: Uh oh all I did was stating of what is viewable by looking at the dang game. Also instead of saying why I'm right or wrong you're basically using me as an example of some pretentious fanboy, which I'm not as I'm also stating what I saw when I played the game and scratched my head on why nobody else on the staff noticed the same, considering thats what happens on screen. But you should do the right thing and state why I'm actually wrong here instead of saying things akin to "Its just a stupid shitty game bro, stop typing so much!".

Where did I even state that the game is groundbreaking in any sort? And besides, I agree with you! All I've been stating that the last ending can be seen as a self-criticism (which also is implied in some of the sidequests) can be considered high-school philosophy so perhaps the game might be even less than that. I mean the names of famous philosophers are literally some of the bosses obfuscated names, which is as stereotypically anime as it can get. Pascal the robot is a hint regarding Blaise Pascal. One of the giant Robots is called Engels, etc.

Anyway, theres no need to get all sassy or using me as a bad example or something. I didn't even address any person or insult them. If anything, get mad at the GB staff for giving Nier so many dang first places on lists so people stop responding about that! Personally, I don't think that Nier: AMs last ending deserved the "best moment" award but I'm not objecting them as its their award and they can decide on their decisions in any way they want. All I'm doing is hinting that the game can be interpreted in a different way considering you're actually and directly shooting the creators names and all that. And that really isn't difficult to grasp now I feel like.

Just look at the game, my good duder! Personally I think its cool that there are games that encurage such discussions, too. I mean nothing about art, as simple as it could be, is objectively set in stone after all and even if Nier: AM was only my 9th favorite game of the year but I fully understand if the GB staff decides to put it in their first place.

EDIT: Just seen that you've edited your post, this whole discussion started because of a duder who felt similar to you but was kinda rude in their phrasing, which resulted in a few other people commenting. The duder in question was @subscryber. I already stated why I wrote so much, I felt it was appopriate since a lot of the discussion has been about Nier.

EDIT 2!: Hope nobody is offended by calling the writing "less than high-school grade philosophy". The game may be all over the place and childrish at times but thats also because its playfull. I merely came from the perspective from the writing itself and don't mean to come from an angle of saying "everyone who enjoys this game is a bit silly" which couldn't be much further from the truth.

After all, Nier: AM still is one of my favorite games of the year.

@dray2k: See my edit. It's not a personal attack and I'm not getting involved further

@re_player1 said:

Which makes it all the more joyous that it has one twice now, with more on the way I imagine.

Thankfully they made the right choice and picked Route E and not the stupid Chicken Dinner.

@delitist: Please delete that huge quotation then because its quite confusing and also takes a lot of space, haha.

Anyway, have a nice day :)!

@kishinfoulux: Three times: Best Shopkeeper, Best Soundtrack and Best Moment.

Well shit. Now I have to get that chip off my shoulder and play MvCi's story mode :D