Giant Bombcast Game of the Year 2017: Day Three Deliberations

Let's do this!!

Excited thanks for all the pods and vids this week

inb4 lootbox based progression wins please stop

I've got my knife in one hand and my signed photo of Yoko Taro in the other let's fucking go!

"Don't use" the YouTube video

Can't wait to listen to this!

FIVE AND A HALF HOURS.

LET'S DO THIS

oh man new categories!!!

Huh. Wolfenstein 2 got its own category. Cool

I'm about 20 minutes in and I still can't decided what "best world" means....

I'm with Jeff on the lore/story aspect of best world and I hope they figure it out before the end of the category.

i am so happy wolfenstein 2 got a category for itself!

Bracing for disappointment in anticipation of Persona 5 not getting top 3 for best moment/sequence

Not sure what was so confusing about that category. It seemed like "World Building" to me. Everything about the narrative, cohesive vision, environmental story telling, lore etc. Something like "It's clunky moving around that environment mechanically" is not valid. (not relevant but also moving around in Horizon is pretty good mechanically.)

Vinny's argument against Neir was more that the environments weren't fully realized because there are various immersion breaking limitations, and not so much about the mechanics of it.

Wolfenstein 2 fails by having very limited and linear gameplay that doesn't allow you to explore and learn about that world as much as you'd want to. There was potential for a lot more.

I'd say Zelda sucks because it's just a very bland environment. Story beats are limited to a few small video clips scattered around the world which aren't even required. I think it's a very broad environment but I don't think they created a dense world. It's a lot of empty space. I think having four characters with weird Power-Ranger esque animal dungeon structures is dumb and doesn't make much sense? Why are there just a bunch of random magical puzzle caves in the world? Seems like it's there more for a gameplay reason and the story is just tacked on afterwards.

Horizon is what I'd argue for here. The world is large, very dense, there's various NPCs to interact with that have their own little stories. You have all the notes that fill in details. You have fantastic visual environmental story telling with certain dilapidated structures, robotic animal design, finding small knick knacks from an "ancient civilization" which we knew as silly, meaningless objects but they almost worship them. You've got religious and non-religious beliefs based in this world. You've got the armor designs which tie into how people in the world handle and process the robots akin to the Native Americans using every piece of the animal.

Sigh. Horizon getting screwed hard this year.

I have a feeling that Best World will have the same transformation as "BEST STYYYLLEEE" did where it becomes a combination of different factors like world design, lore, environment interactions, etc.

I think the Best World category is kind of a mess...

Thanks for making Wolf2 its own category, won't get to it for a minute.

It sounds like for next year, 'best world' should be split into 'best setting' and 'best playground'.

World: The Star Wars universe.

Story: A New Hope.

Sorry Brad, Jeff’s right. There’s a difference between the specific story being told and the world it’s told in. One informs the other, but they are separate entities.

Hottests Mess 2017 is Best World 2017.

Dunno what's goin on. Then everyone gave up on it I feel like

Wow that "best world" category,I don't blame Jeff for checking out. I mean the excuse to remove Yakuza, without even talking about all the things that world has to offer let alone the "lore of the world", doesn't apply to Zelda? Or Assassins Creed? I mean these are their awards so to each their own, but that shit makes no sense to me.

Brad ruined the "Best World" category because he misunderstood it and then convinced everyone else of his wrong interpretation. Brad thinks it's "best level design," which I don't think the average person would think of when they hear "Best World" in the context of our society where we have the term "world building" used in television, movies, books, etc.

Jeff, correctly in my opinion, thinks it's best "world building" in the traditional story sense, which includes cohesive art design and hints that the world is bigger than just the story of the game, which can be two robots fucking in Nier or a newspaper or flyer on the ground in Wolfenstein. If Nier is bad, it's because the gameplay and the contrivances get in the way of you seeing that world building. It means the delivery of the world building is bad because it keeps taking you out of it. I haven't played Wolfenstein 2 yet, but Wolfenstein 1 had such crazy good world building. There were tons of things completely tangential to the story of that game that hint that there's so much more going on in that world. Stuff makes the world believable. You could imagine whole other games, comic books, movies, novels etc. in that setting. Even if the level design is awful. That's a gameplay thing not a world building thing.

Can't help wondering how Austin would've weighed in on Best World.

Please write down what the fuck a category is before you debate whether a game wins it. Best world could have been broken down into several different categories, best sandbox, best environmental storytelling, best lore...

The best world debate got me tearing my hair out. Jeff was the only one making sense in that discussion. Best world is basically the same as best atmosphere and story built indirectly through environment design and not explicit cutscenes.

By that definition, Wolfenstein and Nier had some of the best worlds, because they told their stories and built their lore based on the environments and trinkets gathered through exploring and doing side quests divorced from the main plot. Emils Lunar Tear hideout, or Venus were amazing world building environments.

Brad continually mentioning that that stuff is related to story was blowing my mind, because obviously it would be. Or else the category would be best cohesive world to traverse in or best environment.

I am with Jeff here, I feel that it should not be difficult to separate a story from the world in which a story is told. The problem with the delineation Brad is insisting upon is that it became profoundly murky what is meant by a world, specifically that lore is immediately story. While I appreciate hearing a discussion that might have taken place behind the scenes, I was also becoming frustrated with how unclear the category had become as a result of those disagreements.

I agree with @graham_nix that a compartmentalization such as he described might be clearer here.

@liquidprince: Yeah.... I just skipped past the whole part cause of that.

I can't believe how long the GOTY year podcasts have become...I love it!

@lifejuice:

Unfortunately the depth of her arguments is "it was bad or it was good"

This "Best World" discussion is the dumbest conversation since the B-Game debates. Jeff's frustration is completely justifiable.

Trying to follow the logic behind 'Best World' was hard, would like to see it get the dents ironed out and return next year :) be nice for games with great world building through environmental design and story telling get their dues :)

I usually don't comment on things like this, but the first hour of this podcast should have been had off air. I as a listener was getting frustrated at your frustration.

So what is the best world? Fascinating to hear them genuinely argue about it, I can understand Jeff's annoyance, they should have just considered all on each of the two merits.

Jeff was right about the best world stuff. Honestly surprised he didn't stop recording and pulled everyone aside to hash out the boundaries of the category. So many bad contradicting arguments from people in that category.

I get the desire to have a clear definition for the category "best world". But at the same time I like the more subjective categories. Every game has a world in some sense and a category that aims to celebrate the multitude of different game-worlds is a really good idea. I think that the inherent problem in defining a game world is that it can take so many different shapes and be fun/rewarding in so many ways.

I want to throw in my hat with Jeff regarding the ambiguity of the Best World category. I don't think it makes any sense to lump the mechanics of interacting with a world and story focused world building into the same category.

EDIT: Vinny's description of the category is completely different from Abby's and this is never reconciled. Really should have just cut it.

@declanus45: I suggest you shoot her a tweet or PM if you have some constructive advice to offer. Just seems you're really hung up on it, is all.

22 mins in and I am with Jeff. Best World is a BS category.

Everything was going so smoothly...

The best world portion was pretty lame and contradicting. They talked for an hour trying to define what the category actually is. Also Jeff is right, the arguments disqualify each other in different instances.

I hated Eventide Island so I'm glad it didn't win or even end up being runner up.

Here are the timestamps~

00:00:33 - Podcast starts

00:00:40 - The categories are announced: Best World, PLEASE STOP, Best Wolfenstein II Moment or Sequence, Best Moment or Sequence.

00:01:37 - Best World.

• 00:03:22 - PLAYERUNKNOWN’S BATTLEGROUNDS
• 00:05:52 - Horizon Zero Dawn
• 00:09:30 - Nier: Automata, with a little bit of Zelda and AC: Origins
• 00:18:43 - The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• 00:21:33 - Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus
• 00:23:51 - Assassin’s Creed: Origins
• 00:24:29 - Night in the Woods
• 00:26:19 - Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus (spoilers)
• 00:28:54 - Pyre
• 00:29:18 - Battle Chef Brigade
• 00:30:02 - Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle
• 00:31:50 - Tacoma
• 00:33:05 - What Remains of Edith Finch
• 00:34:12 - Splatoon 2
• 00:34:55 - Cuphead
• 00:36:56 - Observer
• 00:37:59 - Absolver
• 00:38:28 - Yakuza 0
• 00:39:07 - Super Mario Odyssey
• 00:43:14 - Uncharted: The Lost Legacy
• 00:44:46 - Initial discussion (spoilers for Wolfie 2)

01:33:31 - First break.

01:33:44 - PLEASE STOP.

• 01:35:08 - Extended periods where the player character is injured and that slows you down too much
• 01:38:14 - In-game ads for purchasable goods
• 01:38:50 - Games as a Service
• 01:44:55 - In-game ads for purchasable goods
• 01:46:47 - Disney
• 01:47:53 - Electronic Arts
• 01:51:36 - Call of Duty
• 01:54:08 - WWE 2K/Yuke’s
• 02:01:19 - Electronic Arts
• 02:04:43 - Nintendo’s lousy console design
• 02:20:51 - Blind boxes

02:36:22 - Second break.

02:36:35 - Best Wolfenstein II Moment or Sequence.

• I want to play Wolfie 2 so I’m not listening to this part. Sorry!

03:34:55 - Third break.

03:35:09 - Best Moment or Sequence. (Spoilers for everything in the descriptions)

• 03:38:09 - Wrestling Revolution 3D, 50 dudes in two very tiny rings
• 03:40:43 - Uncharted: The Lost Legacy, eating pizza
• 03:41:30 - Uncharted: The Lost Legacy, the train fight
• 03:41:45 - Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite, Thanos steals the Satsui no Hado from Ryu and attacks Death and Jedah with a Gohadoken
• 03:43:21 - Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite, Ryu uppercutting an elder dragon from Monster Hunter
• 03:44:20 - Yakuza 0, fighting Kuze in the sewer
• 03:45:40 - Yakuza 0, Majima’s debut
• 03:46:42 - Yakuza 0, the final fight
• 03:47:14 - Sonic Mania, the Mean Bean Machine boss
• 03:48:36 - Prey, the opening
• 03:50:06 - Super Mario Odyssey, Mario fights a dragon
• 03:51:45 - Super Mario Odyssey, Mario becomes Bowser
• 03:54:12 - Super Mario Odyssey, Mario returns to the Mushroom Kingdom
• 03:55:37 - Super Mario Odyssey, the New Donk City festival
• 03:56:54 - Tekken 7, the ending
• 03:59:53 - Tacoma, the ending
• 04:01:47 - Assassin’s Creed: Origins, entering the Crocodilopolis gladiator arena
• 04:04:01 - Destiny 2, the final mission
• 04:05:23 - Pyre, the ending
• 04:07:17 - Destiny 2, killing Calus, taking the elevator down, and seeing a thousand other Caluses
• 04:10:11 - What Remains of Edith Finch, the cannery sequence
• 04:14:40 - Observer, the first time you go into someone’s mind
• 04:15:22 - Night in the Woods, Selmers’ Poetry Slam
• 04:17:30 - Middle-Earth: Shadow of War, Nemesis fuckery
• 04:19:03 - The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Eventide Island
• 04:21:04 - Nier: Automata, Romeos and Juliets
• 04:22:58 - Nier: Automata, BECOME AS GODS
• 04:23:55 - Nier: Automata, general sidequest discussion
• 04:25:28 - Nier: Automata, Pascal’s arc
• 04:31:16 - Nier: Automata, Route E
• 04:35:04 - Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle, the Opera Singer boss
• 04:36:34 - Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle, introduction of Peach
• 04:37:08 - Cuphead, Mr. King Dice’s boss fight
• 04:39:07 - Bury me, my Love, the endings
• 04:42:30 - Dream Daddy: A Dad Dating Simulator, Damian’s 3rd date
• 04:45:09 - PLAYERUNKNOWN’S BATTLEGROUNDS, chicken dinner
• 04:46:27 - Yakuza 0
• 04:47:59 - Nier: Automata
• 04:54:46 - Final discussion

05:29:51 - The third day is done!

Holy crow these just keep getting longer and longer.

maybe next time think twice before you add a category ?

And on the best world thing it's the assets a dude designed and put in said "world" the rest is lore... So it's best world design i guess or level design. Wolfenstein has bad level design but amazing lore. if that makes sense.

I skipped most of the best world portion. Note for next year do not argue about the category as part of this, figure it out beforehand.

Otherwise the other discussions we're great.