Giant Bomb Presents: God of War (2018) Spoilercast

I...I mean...they're myths. You're talking about Odin and Baldur as if they were real dudes. I think that the game does a very good job of justifying their in-universe reasons for Odin being the way he is, and Baldur similarly. But either way, it's okay for them to kind of fiddle with the story. If anything, I'm happy for it. I have seen the idea that they don't get the mythology right elsewhere and it just kind of makes me scratch my head. It's mythology.

Just finished it, and while it was a really cool game it 100% feels like a first act with this story. So it simultaneously surpassed expectations but disappointed with the scope. I wanted to at least see Odin or Thor at some point. I also have no interest in playing as Atreus in the future, so Kratos or bust (which means they did a good job with him in this one). And I want to see some Fenrir action so my girlfriend has what she wants in this series.

Weird that after finishing the game, I'm less concerned with what I played and more concerned with what I'm going to play in the next one.

Also, not my Baldur.

@sethmode: I guess this might depend on your take on adaptations in general. When I see something I care about, at least to some degree, I want whatever dudes that use that mythology to use it in a way that is a)fun and b)true to the source material. I'm not one of those 200 or whatever actual believers in norse mythology or anything, so nobody gotta worry about offending me, but I am Norwegian and have grown up reading a lot of these stories, so I care about it in that sense.

When the Baldur in this game is this super inaccurate dumbass take on a nice god who also looks completely untreathening as a villain and is an unimpressive final boss, for me they've messed up on all accounts. If they made an alternate version of Baldur that I actually liked as an antagonist, I'd be less down on it. Like I actually really like Marvel's Thor and that take on the whole mythology, even though it's superhero space wizards. Movies aside, I've been reading through Walt Simonson's run, and while very talky, it's also very good.

Additionally, this take on the norse mythology being so similar to their take on the greek mythology just leaves me feeling like they haven't learned much. They're still just gonna characterize the gods as dicks and have Kratos dispose of them all, despite the lipservice paid towards being better and getting redemption for a violent past and so on. Writing the super good god as the insane UFC god is up there for the most immature take you can do on a character like that - though possibly beaten by that space marine Baldur lol

@redhotchilimist: I can appreciate all of that, but again, these are myths. Literally stories passed down through the ages that have been either changed or trumped up or what have you. This isn't actual human history. Baldur was not a real person.

I think that they've learned a LOT, IMO. They aren't unsympathetic to the Gods. The Vanir and Tyr specifically are VERY sympathetic in this story. They just wanted to subvert the classical characters and I think that that's cool, personally. I also don't know how you took Baldur as a "bad guy" really. They took the idea that he can't feel anything to it's logical conclusion and I think it's fun. Sometimes I think people are damned for not coming up with new stuff, and then equally damned for coming up with new takes because the characters are too precious. I get that you didn't like the take, but it feels like you just didn't like it because it was Baldur. Which is fine, different strokes and all of that. I just, when you say "Writing the super good god as the insane UFC god" I have to kind of laugh because you say that like "super good god" is something set in stone when we're talking about a legend that had magic immortality and stuff.

@vinny@danryckert@benpack Any of you interested in knowing a little bit more about Norse Mythology check this out. I listened to it as an audio book as I was playing. Easy to read for someone just wanting to know a little more about Norse mythology. It is a nice overview of that world and it's cool to see how the game devs worked them into their story with GoW.

BTW very cool game!

Literally this exact thing happens

I don't want to be too down on Ryckert, but as other people have stated, it's not just that he doesn't remember things as much as it seems he never even noticed or understood a lot of what made me personally love the game so much. Like, I have learned to take his (and other) opinions on the site with a grain of salt but when he mentioned how crazy the game gets with its scale after I had finished the game I assumed he was referring to the final boss fight, but he doesn't even seem to... remember that it happened? I guess it has been a while since he played the game, but he made that comment only a couple weeks ago

Man, Dan...

They must have, even for due diligence, but I will say that the details of the two versions of the story were pretty different, so they didn't just carbon copy it.

@phalex: Didn't the book just come out last year? I mean, perhaps it inspired some of the ambient conversations from Mimir, but I would guess a lot of it was already in the game when Gaiman released the book (plus I think Barlog has said he hasn't read the book yet).

I'm shocked they didn't reveal that Kratos was Tyr who then hid his identity by faking his death. Tyr, the god of war and bravest of the gods who could travel between the different religion realms, who in actual mythology was supposed to be Mars the Roman god of war who proceeded to Norse mythology after the fall of Rome.

Jeff Backalar might be as cool as your friends stepdad but he was sorely missed on this one. Seemed like Vinny was the only one who really understood the themes of the story.

People already said, you can get the fourth dragon tear from Baldur’s dead dragon. I had no idea what to expect when I went up to that thing.

In regards to Freya, I don’t find her actions at the end unreasonable considering her idea of protecting Baldur was making him not feel anything. I also don’t expect her to be as big of a foe as some think. At the end Mimir says “she’ll come around”. She was a great character, especially her interactions with Atreus added a lot of heart to the game.

@sword_of_doom said:

I have a similar take away. I think it will start with a fight, lead to an uneasy alliance, and eventually she will understand what had to happen (and that it was actually what Baldur wanted anyway).

I wonder where Ben got the impression that the final mural showed Atreus killing Kratos. My impression was that Kratos was killed, Atreus was screaming out in fury/grief and birthing the world serpent or something equally insane given the magic runes flowing out of him. That was the connection I drew with the remark that the world serpent recognized Atreus.

Also I had to laugh after the entire game and series about terrible parent-child relationships and parent murder, the two takeaways by Kratos are that a) we should instead murder the kid before he murders the parent and b) but don't murder me Atreus. I know there's a lot more than that, but hearing him tell Atreus that he has to be better than every relationship he's seen in response to a question about whether Atreus needs to kill his father was amusing. Of course you would say that Kratos, you aren't interested in dying.

Overall, it was definitely a game about the journey, little stories, and the characters, more than the overall plot. Very little actually happens or is revealed to the player and a lot of the main story quests were extremely repetitive. Despite that, they mostly succeeded in doing something that was largely character-driven and not plot-driven. But a couple of the sequences I imagine they thought to be central character moments really fell flat.

Atreus turning into a complete asshole in the span of 10 minutes after learning he was a god, then turning back chastised after they went to Hel, both felt very unearned. I get Atreus getting a little full of himself after learning that, but immediately deciding to be an ass to Sindri, disrespecting his mother as insignificant, ignoring Kratos and becoming a bloodthirsty murderer were not just a power trip but were a complete inversion of his character. Beyond that though, they did a fairly amazing job at slowly building the relationship between Atreus and Kratos and having that build meld with the gameplay, dialogue, and quests.

Man, here I was sitting out and saying I wasn't going to play this game. Listened to this and Waypoint's spoilercast and decided to throw in the towel and try the game out. Dan saying it's one of the best games of the generation is kinda what pushed me. I don't agree with him all the time, but when he says something like that there's usually merit. So, I'm about five hours in and I do like the combat but still not sold on Kratos as a character. He just kinda bugs me, but I'm willing to push through based on what I've heard here.

It's like what Jeff says, sometimes spoilers can be the thing to make you interested in playing a game or watching a movie.

This podcast spurred me to give the endgame another shot. I really enjoy the combat, but I was struggling to find a need to go on with the game without any plot to seek out, and perhaps foolishly I'd combed the map practically dry during my regular run through the game; I was at 70% completion at the end of the story. But upon hearing everyone say the no damage tier of Lava Mountain was bullshit, and everyone say the Valkyrie that stomps your head is among the hardest challenges in the game, I decided to jump back in and just try knocking out a couple areas I didn't have all the artifacts or little things like that, came across the Valkyrie Kara in The River Pass and stomped her out with very little issue and I'm fully back in, at least for tonight. When the combat really starts clicking it's magical.

@drachmalius: One key to Kratos in this game is not the character himself and what he says, but what others say about him and to him. His overall attitude actually plays well with your actions as a player, what with the wanton violence. The family dynamic is phenomenal, a fantastic way of showing someone slowly figuring out what it means to both care for your kin, and respect their own capabilities. That dynamic plays neatly with a third mythological character you're introduced to as well.

Plus, his grouchy nature belies other stuff, and they dig into that in a less dramatic, but more effective, fashion than the old God of War games. I'll say no more than that.

@rahf That all sounds really neat, I'm looking forward to seeing how the character interactions unfold and what they do with it for sure. For now though I'm hooked on the combat and willing to keep going based on the gameplay alone. The "give me a challenge difficulty" is a lot of fun, and you have to actually think about how to approach each encounter. They've done a great job with it.

Vinny is too good for the rest of us. He's just on the ball all the time. Really respect how he analyzes, researches and understands games. Really enjoy someone that knows what hes talking about, which is definitely lacking these days (even on this website). Much respect Vin-dogg.

@deathpooky: On your opening points I agree. To me, it seems like Atreus is birthing the World Serpent whilst he holds Kratos in death. The lore states the the World Serpent was sent back in time during its fight with Thor, which explains why the serpent seemed to know who Atreus was.

@danryckert: Dan... he knows you played it... he's saying you took very little away from your time with it.

@drachmalius: I recently started listening to the Waypoint spoilercast and boy what a stark difference between what Austin and Patrick talk about and what these guys discuss here, and then Dan is just on another level.

@limond: Man I'm an idiot, I was like yo where did that Giant come from? Did she just have it hidden somewhere? ughh lmao.

@humanity haha, I know right? Totally different takes on the same game, that's part of what also got me interested enough to play it. I particularly liked what Austin and Patrick had to say about father figures, and how Patrick's dad could be kind of Kratos-like.

Vinny keeps saying Midgar instead of Midgard, is this game a secret Final Fantasy VII side story?

Odin has a spear an eye patch, and an 8 legged horse. He's a pretty cool dude.

@shabadoo22: The d in gard, at least around these parts, is silent. So Vinny is right on the money there. Though I dunno if Iceland has a different take on it. We share the same language roots but there's some severe differences these days, what with them being out on an island and Norway being stuck to Europe and all.

At an early point in the game, Brok calls his steed a "DIGR BIKKJE"(huge doggy), which I appreciated. Gotta have at least one bikkje ever since the Thing if you're doing something nordic.

@redhotchilimist: This is good to know, thank you! Still gonna hold out hope for Sephiroth to show up in some DLC tho

Dan is a simple man with simple pleasures. :)

I have a fun Theory, probably wrong but I like it. The whole Ragnarok thing happening over and over again isn't foreshadowing Kratos going back in time and becoming Tyr because they establish that Tyr was Odin's son and Thor's half-brother.

At the end Fimblewinter has begun a hundred years too early, meaning the prophecy has been changed. I think everything has changed because Kratos, who existed outside this time loop in another realm, stumbles into it and has made one HUGE change to the timeline. That change is he has changed who Loki is, the Loki that is Jormungandr's father no longer exists because Loki is born from 2 Jotunn parents in Norse mythology, but this time around his Mom shacks up with Kratos and Atreus is born instead. Jormungandr says he thought he recognized Atreus but it stands to reason time ghost Loki's half-brother Atreus looks a bit like Loki.

The reason I don't buy that Kratos is Tyr other than Odin being his father (or one theory posits that he's Jormungandr) because Ragnarok is happening soon at the end of the game, like a few years and 100 years too early. How is Atreus who is supposed to be Loki (maybe not) gonna have 3 kids, 2 of which kill the games foreshadowed next big baddies? Nah, what Kratos does is change mythologies. In Greek mythology Zeus never died, he shut the world off from Mt. Olympus and faded from man's memory but Kratos is the aberration that topples it all. Now Fenrir isn't going to be born to kill Odin, now a Jormungandr releasing his own tail to trigger Ragnarok wasn't necessary and now might not be the one to kill Thor. Now maybe Kratos is who has to do it all, and he does it all to make sure Atreus gets through it alive.

Tl:dr Kratos is the Grays Sports Almanac in a new Norse mythology timeline. "It's your kids Loki, something's gotta be done about your kids!"

”So when Kratos travels home to dig up the weapons that he hasn’t used in years and has purposefully hid from his son...that’s a reference to his past?”

Daaan...I’m not hating on you, I just found it more funny that you seemingly missed on so many points in the story, while still enjoying it. You really should get into everything as deeply as you get into the story of MGS, which is way more obscure and insane.

Thank you for the fun podcast! I’m also all in for more spoilercasts, but I also can’t really think of any narrative-driven games from this year so far that would’ve earned one yet.

P.S. I kinda love imagining the part where Kratos breaks Baldur’s neck and Dan’s just yelling ”Yeah, eat shit!”

No offense to Dan but hes not super into movies with extra deep plots and analysis i have friends like him who still enjoy deep stories but their not willing to dive deep into all of them like a movie buff who looks for context and stuff. Example the friend im talking about was surprised their were alogories to jesus and relejion in the matrix trilogy. They still enjoy it but at the base bad guy beats good guy. Thats good and how movies are suppose to be made. For people who wanna breeze with the flow and those who wanna understand the context of the red door in a characters room changing through the seasons or something. Its the difference of those who liked litureature class for stories vs those who liked answer questions like what is the theme or symbolism for homework. Not a bad thing either way as long as you enjoyed yourself in my opinion. Guess that really wasnt offensive.

I take that as a good thing and bad. Good cause that means general audiences can still take something from it without being totally into it. Which developers want while having deep stuff for those who like diving deep. I am known among friends for diving too deep as i like analytical stuff. Ive been told for years to make a youtube channel about it go figure now that deep analyse thing is in style. smh. thats why the deep lore in this game gave me such a high. Its on dark souls levels of stuff that will fly over most heads.

My father was so much like kratos growing up that i didnt get the excitement for everyone wanting to play it after the e3 trailer. I hated that kind of dad figure who likes you but you need to pull teeth for them to say it. They only berate you but in reality are super proud of you. Its hard to take but when it got such good reviews i put it in my gamefly rent as a throw away. Low and behold i begrudgingly play it and loved it. Perfect representation of those types of dads and perfectly fits kratos if he was able to raise a non spartan son. After hearing how the team thought the take was kinda corny i thought they might have not had or known those types of fathers. Especially since our current demographic and age is varing alot from prior generations in that being macho manly is less important of a thing then just being who you want with more accepting additutes being embraced...atleast a few years ago.

I just finished the game, have not yet listened to the podcast which will have to wait til after my shift;

but I was disappointed given just how many things the game did well.

I think on paper and in practice, what they do with an open-world approach for god of war and it's one-take, atmospheric run-on structure is cool, but when the credits started rolling and interesting revelations, and stories out of Kratos are ones that don't feel conclusive. I feel like the reveals at the end of the game and the way it was handled left me feeling unsatisfied for my efforts. The natural conclusion to the game felt like well, I came, I conquered, but the more interesting dialogue continues during the credits leaving, at least me, feeling like the 'end of the game' was very weak and not conclusive. Just an end of one more chapter.

I didn't have a bad time and I think the production, puzzles, and combat were all technically sound and enjoyed a lot, ( a lot ) of what the game had as far as set pieces, certain demands of you to micro-manage stats and gear, and the offering of side-quests is enough to keep a feen busy well after the game is over...but in the end I felt like the game has major pacing faults even if visually and technically stunning.

The combat never 'felt' great beyond the first couple of hours. I enjoyed the axe throwing, and puzzle solving with it, and the blades reveal was very well done, as a highlight- among other VERY fantastic moments; like freya's turtle house, the world serpent, the dragon, etc, but getting between those encounters I feel similarly to how Jason did where every time a combat scenario would crop up, it felt like a frustrating barrier to progression and really broke the immersion for me. For example, the lengthy sequenced fights with Baulder, dying mid fight makes a cinematic sequence feel like someone hit stop on a movie and rewound it breaking momentum etc. I don't have a solution to that problem, but it really knocked some of my excitement back a peg.

Another thing, as far as audio, I appreciate the grim atmospheric almost souls-like absence of music except for high-fly moments, but it always left me feeling...slightly bored. I really feel like more persistent music to distinguish areas would have been a way to keep the senses and the excitement of 'what's next?' going better. Lengthy elevator rides and waiting for large structural gears and trying to figure out puzzles, the audio could have used some flavoring. I understand this is probably a deliberate choice, but I don't know that it was executed perfectly and to me, many areas felt lacking in personality even if redeemed by the more important-story-focused areas had musical queues that worked well. I think the music was fantastic, I just wish there was more of it to make the adventure less...flat.

I think the game is a success and I can totally understand and do mostly agree with the crew's initial impressions, the production was incredible and the ambition and scale and re-work of presentation did very well for me--- for a long while--- until the final five missions or so where I knew I was nearing the end, but for the most part the 'main motivator' of the story FELT very inconsequential and overall very underwhelming and anticlimactic to me. I don't regret my time with God of War, but I also feel the same way I did at the end of Horizon Zero Dawn where instead of feeling like everything wraps up neatly, I am left with the responsibility to create my own closing chapter with the remainder of side-things to do. Oh well, no regrets, just particular disappointments that overall leave me feeling like the odd man out, and if I were asked I'd give the game probably a 8/10. Even if all the quality parts are in God of War, the end of the game never felt like it delivered on the exciting and lengthy setup at the beginning, and in ways, after the credits finished, though the world changes and asks you to continue playing, I would have preferred much more closure.

Honestly it may have also been that it took me a really long time to beat the game (having a job, am I right?) and found it fairly difficult- which made the main plot very broken up and I had to actually record my gameplay so I could keep track of what happens with who etc. I do wish there were a Horizon-esque option to do a NG+, because I wonder if going through a second time with easier combat in favor of a more movie-like experience without death interrupting the natural flow of beats would change my take-away. I'll give it a little bit, play another narrative game and probably knock the difficulty down a notch since there isn't much (any?) reward (other than trophies) for playing it on higher difficulties. I do feel like if this game were a movie, I would have needed to watch it twice, and as a game I think I may need to do just that after some cool off and knocking down the difficulty to just see it through eyes that aren't expecting the end to be your typical blockbuster game finale.

My biggest gripe is the baulder fights with the near-QTE punching sequences, holy crap that was frustrating and I really wish those sequences were just animated without interaction. I never died during those sequences but getting through them took probably 3x longer than they should have and made an otherwise epic scene feel like I was at risk of losing the momentum of story to death, again, which even though it didn't happen was more on my mind than the story beat happening. Eh. I am glad the crew and others enjoyed it all probably more than I did, but I definitely feel like I need to give it another shot, but after some room to breathe.

Unfortunately, based on some of these comments, I don't think I can listen to this.

I know I shouldn't care when someone doesn't understand the story or themes of a game they played, BUT I TOTALLY DO CARE.

Lot of people came here expecting a coherent discussion of norse mythology or deep dives into character relationships/plot(including me) and were disappointed.

Let's not shit on Dan(and Vinny and Ben) for having a different take on the game though.

Does this mean we can finally stop hearing about it ever Bombcast and Beastcast? I get the game is good, but as somebody without a PS4 I really get sad about not having one when you guys all gush over it.

Oh dear, quite a lot of inaccuracies throughout this podcast!

In that final wall painting Atreus isn't portrait as killing Kratos, but as holding him as he dies. It also looks like either he's giving birth to a serpent or something from Kratos going into him (kind of like the darkness in SotC after you kill them) maybe it's Kratos's power/curse/etc.

I like to think it's Atreus holding him as he took a death blow (maybe from Odin/Freya?), as Kratos seems at peace with what he sees, as even though he dies in the end, his son is there hold him thus it seems like he broke the circle -- could even be an act of sacrifice to protects his son, which would complete break that circle of the sons killing their fathers.

Also Freya's a dumb bitch and Baldur's a dickhead. After finally getting rid of his curse, thanks to Kratos & Atreus, Baldur still want's to kill them and Freya... guy was a complete psychopath who got what he deserved!

I get the feeling that Freya is going to come back around to being an ally again, given the conversation you have afterwards it seems like maybe you’ll fight her early in the sequel and then she’ll warm up to you again.

The section where Atreus doesn't listen to player input and spouts "whatever.." made me want to break the fucking controller.

Really enjoy these spoiler casts, hope they do these more frequently in the future. It was great to hear Vinny and Ben's thoughts on the game.

It's actually mind-blowing the level of detail and sub-layers put into this game. Also, I have to almost wear sunglasses on my OLED. The HDR implementation is brilliant.

Dan never ceases to amaze. Did you play the game with the sound off?

Anyone who legitimately thinks Kratos is a big, dumb jock really didn't play any of the original games more than a bit unless they just zone out for the entire game; it is the equivalent of saying, "Big Boss is just a sheep of America!"

I do think that its odd how view details they all remembered for being a game they just spent 20-30 hours playing, lol. This makes game of the year discussions make a little bit more sense.

As far as game of the year I think this is a strong contender (I bolded 'strong' because that's how strong it is) for Game of the Year. I also think there are several contenders, from just this game, for Character of the Year, Story of the Year, and best looking. Characters I came away remembering/thinking about a bunch:

• Kratos
• Atreus
• Sindri
• Brok
• Jörmungandr
• Mimir
• Baldur

Some thoughts I had about the game on the whole:

1. I thought its representation of the Norse mythology was both pretty faithful AND its own take, which is fantastic.
2. I really liked how restrained they were with introducing character from the Norse pantheon. I kept waiting for Thor to show up and other gods/characters. I loved that, being a fan of the mythology, I understood many of the concepts (even the part about the arrows about Baldur) ahead of time.
3. Baldur was a really sympathetic villain in some ways. Not in a movie way, which is incredibly heavy handed (hi, Black Panther), but where I was feeling sorry for him on my own without being told I should be.
4. I didn't think Freya's turn was that weird. The turn was not telegraphed but her motivations and hints of how far she'd go to protect her son was throughout a bunch of the last 1/2 of the game. Her turn, in the end fight, was heavily telegraphed because she's literally telling you that she's do it if you don't stop. We can be very external to the situation and say, "Why didn't Kratos let her die and kill Baldur after" but that completely ignores both Kratos' and Atreus' arc up to that point, in my opinion.
5. I enjoyed the endgame content (honestly, the ravens are incredibly easy...they tell you how many you need in each area) but I found the Valkyrie queen to be annoying because the flaws in the combat showed up harder there than anywhere else. In the end I probably only tried her 7 or 8 times but its a long fight. I ended up doing everything before beating the game. This isn't a "I'm a good gamer" thing but that I found there are a bunch of reasons to do this stuff before finishing the game and its all really decent.
6. The motion capture stuff was fantastic, the voice acting was fantastic, etc. The jaded part of me says, "Because of its review score and how well they like the game its going to get shafted in the game of the year talks" lol.
7. Dan has a really simplistic view of "good guys" and "bad guys" and it was the most apparent in hearing them talk about this game :D I mean, even Mimir makes a comment about the Egyptian gods and "whose good and bad". When Atreus says, "Are they good gods or bad gods" Mimir responds with something like, "well, its not quite that simple." That's basically this entire game and its mythology.
8. Very little talk about the introduction of other pantheons, Tyr, and how Kratos was prophesied to do all of this. I expected more talk about Atreus' actually being Loki and his mother being where the term/word "fey" comes from. That whole last 45 minutes of the game was a rollercoaster for me. The ending was exceptionally powerful with it being both a great ending for the game but also a great beginning of this whole story arc. I'm very interested in seeing if we get to see stuff like the Egyptian pantheon that was hinted at (originally this game was going to use Egyptian pantheon).
9. The graphics, even on a launch PS4, was great. The sound was just as great.
10. The sidequests weren't just pointless filler. The extra lore and stories were great for me.
11. Ragnarok is basically, in the mythology as far as we can tell (what we have now is pretty Christianised), where Loki escapes bondage and attacks the walls of Asgard with the giants. Not sure if the giants will come back or anything? Also, not sure if Fenrir will show up but the World Serpent will kill Thor.
12. I think us not seeing humans isn't strange...we only pass one village in the world map and its clearly a remote area because that's where Freya and Kratos/Kratos' family is hiding. That map isn't all of Midgard...just like the realms we go to aren't a full representation of those entire realms. Seems weird to look at it that way.

If this game isn't the best game I play in 2018 then 2018 was a good year for games.

@drew327: that can be the only plausible explanation.

So I decided to listen to this before even playing the game, because fuck it, I may or may not, but I'm interested in the story and read it on Wikipedia.

Anyway, just based on the Thor movies and reading some of the comics recently, Loki was Thor's *adopted* brother, as he was actually the child of Laufey, depicted in thr first movie (and comics) as male and king of the frost giants. That's just Marvel's interpretation.

Laufey as the female giant who was the mother of Loki (Atreus) in the game is closer to Norse Mythology.

@earlgreigh: For what it's worth, Vinny and Ben absolutely more than make up for Dan's complete obliviousness to anything that happens in the game. Dan is only in the podcast to say the pushing of the buttons felt good.