The Giant Beastcast: Episode 164

I generally don't post in comments, but the subject of coffee is an area that I have some knowledge to and want to contribute on that:

• Cold brew -- this is usually a coffee that is brewed to be a concentrate. It's not typically brewed with a normal water to coffee ratio and thus results in a much stronger extraction per volume. This is why when it's served it often done with a lot of ice and sometimes milk b/c it has to be diluted. Since it's just a concentrate it can be prepared however you want, yes including hot.
• Iced coffee -- Alex was right in that it's hot coffee brewed over ice, but it can be handled two different ways. The first is to reduce the water dosage and supplement it with ice, and then letting it sit to fully melt. The second is to flash chill and this is where you brew it normally and put it into a chilled chamber to quickly flash it down. This is meant to be served sooner, whereas the first method is meant to be served later.

BBC News only enables comments on articles that are practically certain to generate a high quantity of morons working themselves into a tizzy about stupid bullshit in a hilarious and mockable fashion, I wish more websites took this very curated approach.

Why are you suggesting that the only middle ground is one that places equal blame on both sides? One person fucking up dramatically and another fucking up in a much smaller fashion is a thing.

Vinny's notion that this should have resulted in a "Yo, we need to talk." is probably one that I think we both can agree on after all.

Black cats are nature's way of allowing you to be owned by a panther.

Thanks for pointing this out.

As a man whose knee-jerk reaction about this was to blame Price, discussions like these among people who actually know what the fuck they're talking about helped me understand why that instinct was wrong.

I am sad to see how many people in this community don't get it, but I'm glad the Beastcast went there.

If they investigated things they wouldn't skip over one of the most important parts: her being a sexist. She was calling him out on his gender and using that to insult him. Plus trying to make the case that she doesn't want feedback even though she publishes work related things on a publicly verified Twitter account that is made for people to offer feedback... And then saying that because she is a woman she gets too much of that already... While continuing to use a publicly verified Twitter account that everybody can post on... Now Twitter feedback is supposedly uninvited feedback because of Price? That's not how the internet works. Etc.

What these outlets are reporting makes no sense. That's why Tron's claim that they did put zero investigative effort into this is at the very least a valid concern. They did not care enough to present the truth as is. Or their 'perspective' would find some basis in the facts they present, and as a bonus they wouldn't be so easily dismissed.

We see wild accusations, prejudice and conspiracy theories and an omission of facts that do matter to the narrative they present. It's not the first time this happens with gaming media (and I cannot fault them, I don't think they've been trained to cover these types of events). And therefore I would advice any viewer or reader of gaming media to not take the gaming media's reporting on political content seriously at all. And if you have the energy, to try and correct their articles where you can with facts (especially concerning the accusations) and with a whole lot of patience.

Why do they keep bringing up the Arena net stuff? Yes it's shitty but i am guessing she probably already signed a other contract with a other videogame DEV.

The ANet thing is literally a sequence of like 4 tweets and a firing. There's practically nothing to "investigate". It's very simple to look at what happened and come to your own conclusions. The tweets, last I checked, are still there. Whether or not you agree with the firing, or Price's tone, etc., the story is not deep.

Two things I've come to realize from my recent time on this website.

1. There are a lot of awful people here.

2. Y'all should totally try turning off the comments.

This is perhaps what I'm understanding the least. This idea that there is the wealth of information out there if you look hard enough is false. There's very little front-facing details, just the tweets and a statement. It's just a bunch of different takes and you finding one that you think argues what you agree with well enough for you to say "it's informed". At least, as far as I can tell.

@sharkeh: thanks for these vids. This guy can explain stuff.

Man, this week's corrections section was depressing. Does Dan seriously have no knowledge of 'The Troubles'? To be honest, it didn't seem that any of the crew understood just how deep the scars run between ROI, NI and the UK.

PS: This isn't really a correction, but the general consensus is that this is best England line-up years.

PPS: Fuck you Crotia :'( (jk, I love you really).

@tr0n:

Most people slip up at some point, and the likelihood and severity of that slip up tends to scale with the amount of pressure a person is under. I don't think you can compare creating business software to being a female game dev in a lead position and that's not to take away from the stress of your job but to emphasize hers. I'm pretty sure you've had clients who barely understand what they want, let alone how stuff works, telling you you're shit at your job. It sucks but you grin through your teeth, get through it and move along. Everyone can deal with a few assholes now and then, that's life.

But what if it never stopped? In game dev, especially games-as-service dev, you don't have a handful of clients, you don't even have hundreds, you have thousands, millions even. And how many of those are assholes? If you're a woman in this industry that percentage is not low. So how many voices telling you you're terrible at your job can you take before it's too much? And that's not even opening up the whole other massive topic of sexism both in games and life in general. It adds up and everyone has a breaking point, everyone.

So let me change my earlier question, have you ever been a dick to anyone at any point during your life? If you're answer to that is no then you're a saint and I get why this doesn't make sense to you but 99% of humans aren't. Because she didn't write this on an arenanet account, or in a place especially designated for guildwars stuff, this was her free time.

And now we're getting into the messy stuff. I do stand by what I said earlier, you can't write something publicly and expect nobody to challenge you on it but you also have to remember that for the longest time there was a way clearer line between the professional and the personal. Yes, if you were a dick to someone in your time off, chances are they and their friends/family are not coming to visit your business but that was it. Social media has magnified this to such an unreasonable degree that your only two options are to never slip up at all or to stay off social media altogether. Except that second one isn't really an option anymore and is becoming less of one every day. If you are in a lead position in game dev (or any company, increasingly) you are expected to have a social media presence.

Social media is blurring a growing number of lines, the difference between who you are and what your work is is becoming smaller and smaller and that's starting to look scarier and scarier.

This isn't even really about Jessica Price anymore, she's on holiday and if she stays off of twitter long enough the death and rape threats will stop eventually. The fact that I'm not joking about that is both sad and another indicator of just how much pressure these people ( again, women disproportionately so) are under compared to a job in a lot of other industries.

But what won't stop is this general thing happening again and again. Especially now that those people who scream the very loudest know it's having an effect, which is why firing her was just a straight up mistake, regardless of if she deserved it or not. Even if this was part of a general streak of misconduct, wait for this to die down and release her quietly. The internet mob is a scary, scary fucking thing and nobody should ever have to face it alone. If you expect your employees to confront that even in the hours they aren't working, show them you have their back because if you don't, who does?

So did Jessica Price fuck up? Yes. Did she deserve to be fired? Maybe. Did she deserve to be thrown to the wolves who want nothing more then to burn her life to the ground for being mean on the internet? Fuck no.

@rasrimra: This is literally what the divide is. I don't think she was being a sexist for saying she feels talked down to and was angry about it. But no one will give that point credence if they disagree and then assumes its her that was being sexist for making a point. Frankly I think she was still rude but in context a lot of people can see why she got mad. Derior was more polite and I do think she should've been reprimanded. BUT he offered a suggestion as if it was a magical thing that no one thought of when, after you READ through her whole essay you realize her team ALREADY thought of, wasn't the case. They were hired to make the best writing possible in the context of accepting the living story model. I wish she'd said that instead of being rude but it very much sounds like, in her outburst, this was the kind of shit she deals with in a varying number of degrees and was fed up. If you perused the GW2 reddit you see a lot of people blaming the writers as if they have no brains and I can see how that all builds up someones headspace.

Look at any patch notes disccusion in a competitive game and ask yourself how a game dev handles the constant "this balance team doesn't know shit" comments before getting pissed. Like I said before though, his comment was more innocuous and unlike the patch note example, its much harder to see the context when you don't read her post fully and see how simplistic and full off assumptions the suggestion was. Any time you try to suggest something to a team of people you're saying you think you have the golden idea they didn't think of when in fact, most players won't have the grandiose knowledge they think they have about an issue in the way a developer will have, and that's a constant battle every community of an online game deals with.

This whole situation stinks. Most of the time when a dev hits a breaking point people in the fanbase are not at all understanding of the fact that a dev has a lot more data and experience and so backseat game design is practically insulting in the sheer waves that they'll experience it. Even if you disagree that her gender would make this issue even more magnified, she didn't have to be a girl to see how shitty a fanbase can treat its developers via social media. The side that defends her firing doesn't seem to get this context while the side that thinks it wasn't necessary, like me, SEES how rude her comments were but can also see how easy it is to get mad when their expertise in writing is constantly called in to question

@beau24: I have to agree with you these story's tend to go wild in the comments and NEVER bring a "civilized conversation" All it does is "man this comment section is X i didn't know giantbomb had so many Y's."

Here are my two cents about the most important discussion in this podcast:

I've gotten really into energy drinks lately and I think I might be dependent on them. I used to just drink two black tea's at work but now I drink energy drinks so often that its hard to not be drowsy all day with just two tea's. They're delicious! And they have flavors that your standard coke/pepsi sodas don't usually have.

One energy drink that I think might actually be dangerous is "Bang". Its a workout prep drink that has some weird shit in it like Creatine and Magnesium. They taste kinda good, one of the flavors is Pina Colada and I wish that was a more common soda flavor. However, drinking Bang casually leaves me jittery and nervous like no other energy drink. I also have way more trouble sleeping at night after one of those. The last time I drank one, I think it gave me heart attack symptoms for a whole afternoon. But also, I don't do anything that would justify 'workout prep' food so I stopped buying them. Don't drink Bang casually.

I apologize, I'm just frustrated by the response and find the lack of empathy on display kind of astounding. I can understand thinking Jessica's responses uncalled for, but the bigger picture here and the precedent this incident sets is awful. We can't let toxic fanbases dictate the employment of someone in the industry because they dared to be angry or speak out some frustrations.

I'm sorry my comment came across as not willing to listen, but at this point I haven't heard a defense for Arenanet's decision that didn't seem to miss the bigger picture here.

Renting video games was a way of life. I rented an N64 a ton of times too.

Is it possible to change the comment section so that you have like a hard limit of say, 40 comments? 'Cause whenever the number goes above that, unless it's on some spectacular video like the time Dan and Jeff played Super Mario Bros 3 on a rollercoaster, it's always a bunch of angry people arguing unconstructively about a controversy for several pages. You can't have good discussions anymore and all positivity or jokes gets drowned out. It sucks.

Trying to squeeze in a thing I actually wanted to comment on: it's cool Alex tried SFV again! I was late to the party on SF4 and never really got into it, but I was there day one with SFV and have kept playing it since. At this point I'm kinda getting tired of the same thing, though - But even if this is the year I take more than a week's break from SFV, Is till got three years out of it, and it's also they game that got me following FG events like CEO and EVO. I hope an eventual SF6 isn't as busted at launch though, that turned off so many people.

Abby is 100 percent right about cobwebs. Derelict webs that accumulate detritus. Tell me I'm wrong.

@worlddude: I agree here with the precedent it set. The company could have very easily had a PR around handling the matter internally and left it at that. By responding so quickly, and publicly, they've opened the gates for more types of outrage campaigns.

You are incorrect. Polygon has a long interview with Price and also spoke with Arenanet. You can read this investigative effort on their site quite easily. I can't speak to Waypoint's coverage but GB put in as much as they usually do for any story they speak about at all.

Maybe you think journalists should be calling employees one at a time for individual statements (that the employees would be rightfully reluctant to give at this point)? To say it's 0 is a flat-out lie. They investigated. The story they discovered was reported.

This isn't a team sport. There are more than 2 sides.

While it's true that the company over-reacted to the tweets, I wish they stopped trying to downplay how the tweets themselves were also an over-reaction to begin with. Deroir did nothing wrong and she definitely lashed out at the wrong person. People keep wanting to ignore that fact.

Also Twitter isn't a private space maybe use Slack ?

That Dan bomb at the end.

@maxxcanti: Supporting GamerGate is encouraging shitty behavior.

Reposting this, because it's very good IMO.

@ape_dosmil: don't equivocate people who want business owners, employees, and government officials who hold and practice hateful beliefs that affect lives to lose their jobs/positions with people who want creatives (mostly women) who are tired of their competence being questioned (no matter how "politely") by strangers with zero experience to get fired

and yes, i will always be for defending women and people in minority groups who are "rude" when their livelihoods and very existence are being questioned and threatened. to ignore the history and power dynamics in play in circumstances like this one is being naive at the very best.

and when the results are people summarily fired, women developers are more wary about their jobs and online presence, and hate mobs feel empowered, i honestly cannot comprehend how anyone can still focus on one aggressive comment, consumer entitlement, and corporate power over labor.

also,y'all want investigative reporting?

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17565218/arenanet-guild-wars-firing-games-social-media-harassment

gw2 devs are rightfully scared, disappointed, and angry.

again, for anyone arguing the one issue of a female dev having enough of her competence questioned in light of literally EVERYTHING ELSE that happened signals to me that those people have their priorities all fucked up or are just being completely disingenuous.

This I can agree with in general, but in this specific case, that's not the circumstance.

The person that you're implying was threatening and questioning Price's livelihood was also someone that has repeatedly praised her, this being an example. It's not reasonable to me to assume that he was trying to be condescending once you're aware of that fact.

While I sympathize with Price for thinking that comment was meant to be confrontational due to her ample previous experience with other comments that no doubt were, it was mistaken a perception this time. Reading her final twitter comments on this whole thing, it seems like Price has also noted that her response was based on her perception, not his intention.

Bottom line, this situation is too complicated to draw just one line in the sand and call it a day.

I agree. Sadly I really don't think game devs are given enough validity in their expertise from their workplace. Or idk.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/73ko9b/lead_riot_member_he_tyler1_looks_like_a_damn/?utm_source=BD&utm_medium=Search&utm_name=Bing&utm_content=PSR1

Who remembers this guy? I don't defend his comments literally at all. But I'm willing to bet that he had a lot of pent up shit because tyler1 wasn't just a very toxic guy in the past, he validated in many peoples minds that its okay to literally demonize and call to question riot devs expertise. its a nonstop thing that STILL happens.

To me, we're experiencing how easy it is for people to get fed up with the shit they get from fans on a daily basis that think they know whats best for the game with NO experience and we as a culture have no way to stop this or put people in their place. So we're going to see more women like price and men like this former rioter grow sensitive to people in their fanbase putting them on blast and making their livelihood seem like hell. I have to say, even whilst having a twitter I DOUBT that they asked for that sort of attention and have to just sit and deal with it or forego using social media the way they got to before their job.

@karrius: https://twitter.com/delafina777/status/1000045432007938048?lang=en

Its on her feed.

Please refrain from derailing this thread with discussion of TB's entire career. Those comments are not relevant to the discussion at hand.

I love that both GBWest and GBEast are willing to call out bullshit behavior when they see it. Same with Waypoint and all the other outlets.

Keep it up guys. Love the content.

Dan's comment about steaks being uncooked in the fridge is probably my favorite GB podcast bit ever.

Internet Drama..

I don't get this argument around empathy. I can empathize with how frustrating it is when people tell you how to do your job, I can empathize with the desire to lash out against people. I can empathize with losing a job.

I cannot sympathize with her response at all. Every single job I ever had, if I lashed out like that I would lose that job or be on very thin ice. Rightly so I think. Escalation is not the right response in such situations, either professionally or from a point of decency.

Yeah, I was pointed to that John Teasdale twitter thread previously as well. It helps give another perspective, but it also ascribes unearned malicious intent. I have trouble reconciling the image of this person as being insidious with twitch recordings of the same person praising Price for her work.

Come on, Famine's easy! Swarms of locusts that you swing around in a whip-like fashion. Locust whips.

I'll be frank. I'm also a bit frustrated when any criticisms of Price's personal actions is immediately taken as a defense of Arenanet's decisions. Or alternatively, defense of Deroir is taken as justification for the screamings of the hate mob.

But yes, the precedence this sets sucks. It sucked when Nintendo did it, and it sucks far more so now because not only did the harassment target get fired, a coworker that came to her defense did as well.

@mobiusfun: I have a love/hate relationship with energy drinks. Sometimes they have the intended effect of getting me wired, sometimes they do absolutely nothing but more often than not they make me tired almost immediately. It's especially frustrating because I feel completely drained, like I skipped the high and went straight to the crash but I'm also unable to sleep because of all the shit in there.

Despite all of this I still have about one a week, though every time I can't help but think "this is a bad idea and I am stupid."

The intent was not malicious directly, but the comment itself was very easily patronizing. Whether or not that was the intent doesn't actually matter -- that's one of the problems with being patronizing specifically. Someone can be incredibly patronizing while having 100% best intentions in their heart.

That's also where the sexism angle comes in, for what it's worth. Would the same person think to ask the same 'have you tried this simple thing?' question of a dude dev? If yes, it's just a dumb question. If no, it's sexism. There's not much way for us to know the actual answer, so the rest is just arguing in circles.

None of this is to say Price's reaction was necessarily justified, and that's the funny part to me about all the people mad at the east and west bombers for talking about this -- neither group go out of their way to defend her specific actions besides to say they understand the frustration. Both groups mostly think she over-reacted. The way people in the comments are responding, I expected the bombers to act like she did literally nothing wrong. They... don't do that. Most coverage I've seen doesn't do that. Most coverage just thinks (rightly, in my opinion) that what Arenanet did was worse.

That's how I feel.

They started talking about unions and I chuckled. I've been a due paying worker in one of the countries largest unions (1.4 million workers) for 15 years. I can guarantee you that I am getting fired if I call a customer a "rando asshat" or talk down to them. And there is no way I'm winning arbitration. I'm allowed to hang up the phone, walk away, or pass the customer off to a manager if they are being rude, vulgar, or otherwise abusive. Unions aren't a shield from ever facing punishment or being fired.

I understand this point. I'm saying Teasdale's analysis was implying Deroir crafting his tweets to be purposefully shitty.

An example:

The answer turns out to be, yeah. I don't think people usually want to have angry confrontations with creators that they admire.

Also, I will never be on board with "intentions don't matter." They absolutely do. Intentions are the disease. To ignore them is to ignore the root cause and treat the symptoms. You don't treat a cut caused by self-harm and a cut caused by an accident the same way if you wish to prevent a second cut. You don't cure illness this way, and you certainly don't create long lasting social change this way.

I take shit from customers at work all day every day, the reason i don't fire back at them has little to do with the fact that i'd be instantly fired, guaranteed, it's mostly because i'm not a bad person.
Her response was terrible, she created an extensive 20 odd tweet long essay, effectively all about the great work she thinks she does, and didn't expect anyone to actually read it and respond? Vinny's position also baffles me as in this same podcast he said his Twitter was for work, but agreed that she "didn't ask" for criticism, if your Twitter account is linked to your employer, you advertise yourself as working for your employer, and you're talking about the work you do, don't friggin lay into your customers.
Did she have the right to argue back? Of course.
Was she right to? Absolutely not, if necessary she could have discussed the points further, or ignored them.
Should she have been fired? I don't know, but she definitely shouldn't just be free to insult people who care about the game and her work.