The Giant Beastcast: Episode 164

Ah, I see. This is eye-of-the-beholder stuff, I'm afraid. It's getting really really hard to have a debate about anything where you can assume the other party is speaking in good faith. In the example you noted, there's absolutely no way to tell if the original was actually sincere. It reads, to anyone sensitive to such from long rounds of pointless argument, like an extremely performative sea-lioning. This is just a case where benefit of the doubt ran out, deserved or no.

I think Teasdale might be exaggerating a little for effect and I'd personally come down on the side that the OP is probably doing the best he can, but if he really felt unwelcome he also did have the option of just not replying at all. You don't always need to have the last word in this sort of thing. I'm also a cis white dude and view the interaction through that personal lens whether I like it or not -- if I were a lady, it might be a lot plainer to see the comment as disingenuous.

This entire situation blows my fucking mind. She is 100% in the wrong here and it's amazing that people are going on this huge rants and trying to analyze Deroirs tweets to ridiculous levels. This shit right here is why people are saying they think they need to walk on eggshells constantly.

Nothing he said was patronizing or sexist in any fucking way, and no amount of overanalyzation will change that. If that post can be construed as sexist, literally every single thing any person posts that you disagree with can be construed as being sexist. And that is the problem.

But would you be fired if you said the same thing to a customer on Twitter outside of company time? I think you're missing the point here about unions. You're right they aren't meant to protect you from things that would get you fired they are there to ensure the worker has certain protections and argue on your behalf in situations where undue firing is on the table. Whether or not you agree that she should have been fired, if there was a union there would at least be a conversation.

Do you really think that asking 'hey have you tried branching dialog' to a 10 year narrative design vet is not patronizing?

Disappointed with the beasters on the GW2 talk. Doesn't sound like they actually looked into the whole thing. Definitely not that black and white.

I'll just add that the Teasdale thread pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole ArenaNet thing. If you haven't read it yet, you should at least check it out.

Also I think a creative person who makes art or content of some kind should be allowed to choose how they interact with their fans. It's not a consumer/retailer interaction. If players don't like how she presents herself on Twitter, hit the unfollow and just stick to the official Guild Wars account or whatever.

If we've reached the point where genuine praise from person A about person B is not enough to give person A the benefit of the doubt when it comes to good faith, then we've reached an absolutely fucked level of cynicism. Conversation that does not support an ideologically pure echo chamber cannot happen.

Maybe that is the way of things and I'm the crazy one for not accepting that but I'd rather be crazy than accept that we're all doomed.

Like, what's to stop from questioning Teasdale's sincerity when it comes to this analysis and whether he's just playing to his own audience in order to boost his youtube view count now? The more I run this through my head, the more frustrated I get.

The key word here is 'genuine.' How do you tell?

There are a lot of very cynical people right now. There are a lot of good reasons to be.

Exactly. It's crazy. We should all be starting from the initial position that she over-reacted and lashed out at the wrong person even if we don't agree with the firing. That we're going out of our way to try to paint the guy that made that 100% innocuous statement as anything close to being hateful, let alone a misogynistic gamergater, is beyond the pale. Completely absurd.

@drachmalius: while it seems like it should be that way, as an artist who does work for a company I can tell you that you agree to a certain level of professionalism when you work for a company and chances are somewhere in her contract, whether or not she read it, a certain conduct is required when representing the product. The reality is it's a business and as shitty as it seems it's probably within their policy. I wouldn't go popping off on my twitter at customers with anywhere near the rudeness she did. This whole respect the worker thing is a two way street.

By exercising the common sense that we were all raised with!

What reason is there for that praise not to be genuine? Seriously? This is starting to look like actual paranoia, you realize that right?

Man, am I on the wrong side of the arenanet thing? I think the company way overreacted, but the writer also overreacted. Don't use social media if you can't handle the shitty feedback.

Now that I've reached the end of the podcast, I'm really sad that there isn't more attention being paid to Dan's misunderstanding of refrigeration.

@warmonked: spot on

I think it's more that he misunderstands what the word "cooked" means.

@vinny Disappointed on the ArenaNet conversation, was hoping for a more unbiased look into regardless of which side you stand on. I was disappointed that Jessica's second tweet didn't even get a mention and then saying her tweets were at most a "little rude" while the tweets to her were "condescending" and "patronizing" to start out the conversation.

I really just wanted an unbiased looked at the situation before you jumped on it and gave your opinions and I do not believe I got that.

It's definitely possible to read Deroir's tweet as being patronizing/condescending, but I don't think that it was wise to shine a spotlight on his tweet and make an example of him in front of the community. There are ways of discussing examples of possible "mansplaining" that don't require public humiliation.

This is the part that stood out to me, not the "rando asshat" tweet, TB tweet, nor any other specific example of her rather "fiery" personality (as Alex called it). I agree with Vinny's assessment of the firing as a lame attempt at appeasing the mob, and I also agree that the firing was wholly unnecessary. However, in the same way that ArenaNet should have privately discussed this matter with Price before resorting to draconian measures, Price should have done the same for Deroir, even if he was being patronizing and even if she has heard this all before. At the very least, it's possible to talk about condescension and mansplaining in a way that doesn't embarrass a fan and content partner in front of the rest of the community.

For what it's worth, I'm a teacher, and on a daily basis, I have to consider how to manage my students' behavior and occasionally punish my students for their misbehavior. There are certainly situations in which I make an example of a student in front of the class, but I typically reserve this for fairly egregious infractions. I would much rather address the behavior quietly and individually before calling someone out in front of the entire class. Sometimes this involves non-verbal cues (eye contact, tapping on someone's desk as I walk past, etc.). Other times, I address the entire class for one person's or a small group's behavior without directly drawing attention to the specific person or people involved ("Just a reminder that you shouldn't be talking while quizzes are out!").

I know that these methods aren't available on Twitter, but my point is that there are other means of addressing this sort of behavior without publicly humiliating the person in question, especially if their behavior is more problematic than it is overtly malicious. Price could have DM'd Deroir or spoken broadly about the constant criticism she receives as a female developer without highlighting Deroir's tweet.

I know how tiring is is to have people assume that I am somehow less capable of doing my job because of race, gender, or any other physical identifier. An Asian man who teaches high school English, I get this all the time. During my first year, I had parents introduce me to their friends as "the new math teacher". This past school year, a colleague from one of the other schools in the district told me, apropos of nothing, that I "look like a physics teacher". This is a very real issue that encounter on a regular basis. However, I am always careful when choosing my responses. I would much rather diffuse an awkward and potentially embarrassing situation with humor rather than painting a target on my offender.

I am glad we're focusing on critiquing the really impactful, landscape-altering decision of retorting rudely on twitter rather than the wholly uneventful severing of the livelihoods of two game developers. We all have our priorities very straight here.

Besides the fact that that's not really how he presented his perspective, nah, not patronizing or indirectly malicious. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with a developer's perspective on game design, which is precisely what happened.

And yes, dialogue choices purely for role-playing purposes is a basic-ass way of helping to let a player create a character that's compelling to them. Saying that it's probably not possible to create a compelling player-character in an MMORPG full stop (or cRPG for that matter) is 100% not a sentiment that's fucking above criticism.

She expressed an opinion, someone else replied with theirs.

Was it necessary to reply to her tweets? Motherfucker is anything anyone does necessary? Get into the existential weeds with questions like that. Was it necessary that she posted a tag-along Twitter thread to a Reddit AMA?

Unsoliticited, sure, the same way any response on any forum and comment section (unless explicitly requested) is unsolicited (not to mention unnecessary).

It wudn't right they both got the axe without a warning in my opinion, even if it was technically within ultimately acceptible parameters on the part of an employer, but people trying to fault Deroir for this are 100% wrong. Polite disagreement and engagement with a developer in a public forum (because Twitter) is absolutely acceptible behaviour.

Her freaking out? Also fine. ArenaNet can make whatever calls they want, but Price ain't in the business of customer service, straight-up. Were the things she actually said fine? No. They were fucking egregous. I'm sure there's an element of saltyness after just being fired, but everything I've seen from her since (as well as things from before this incident) make her seem like she's got a bonafide sizably awful chunk to her personality (don't forget people are a lot more than the bullshit they post on Twitter). But so fucking what. If you enjoy her work, then keep on keepin on.

Granted, as an employee it's probably best to understand how your employer expects you to behave with its customers, whether you're a creative or not, and whether you believe that should even matter or not. All ideals aside, you work for a business that has their own idea of what's what, so it pays in the long run to find out what the fuck can get you fired. That's the most practical take-away from this whole debacle tbh.

@nach0sanchez: I don't want to speculate about what may or may not have been in her contract, but I just don't think what she said was all that unreasonable. She was assertive and drew some boundaries, not in the most nice way but that's her prerogative. Seeing the discourse that's resulted from this, I'm not able to take any of the outrage over what she said seriously.

That Anet shit is infuriating. Was a fan for a long time, something like 5500 hours logged in GW1, but after I found out about this I uninstalled GW2 and convinced 3 of my relatives to do the same. Response "Uh have you heard of dialogue trees ma'am" #5001, no matter how kindly worded is extremely frustrating to deal with for someone in her position, I'm sure.

I don't begrudge her the outburst. Plus, even if I did I'd feel like I'm adding to the empowerment of a mob of entitled gynephobes and a faceless suit in the process. That alone makes it worth taking a stance against imo.

Gosh, I'll never get tired of "pointing out something sexist is the real sexism." It's such a bad attempt at sidestepping the issue it's almost funny.

@warmonked: Yeah, this whole thing gave me another lapse of wondering why people still use twitter. Its like a media site that's JUST a comments section, which is always the worst part of any media site. I thought people would move away from twitter after they started giving preferential treatment to Nazis but somehow that wasn't enough. Its not like twitter is some one of a kind service that can't be outdone. People just need to stop using it, but I guess everyone has grown too used to having shitty things in their lives.

I wrote the above paragraph and then thought for a few minutes and realized I still go to 4chan despite hating what that place has turned into over the last 5 years. I just can't find a good and well populated substitute for it (reddit is not a substitute for an anonymous image board). I guess people feel the same way about twitter. Ugh, the internet sucks now. I miss 2008-2012 internet.

If you don't think that people arguing in bad faith is a problem, you haven't been paying enough attention in a whole lot of different areas. From Steam store reviews to political rallies to message boards and twitter, the paradox of tolerance is a real issue that a lot of people are grappling with all across the board. Again, there's a reason why 'sea-lioning' is a term.

Pointing to common sense as the answer reads just like the sort of trouble I'm trying to describe. Common sense is a pretty useless term that is generally invoked when the intent is to make the other party seem off-kilter. Common sense doesn't answer anything, because what a given person's own sense is depends on how they were raised. It also, again, assumes both sides are speaking in good faith (since it's such a vague term.) 'Common sense solutions' are simple solutions that are born out of hot takes, first impressions, stereotypes and assumptions. They don't usually work.

Twitter gives me so much anxiety and stress, so much bad shit and toxic people on there, hold on while I check twitter

The problem is in the world being described, there is no way for two parties to speak to each other and assume best intentions within each other without somehow proving they are ideologically aligned first.

I spent the last two years teaching an incredibly diverse high school classroom in Morocco with students from every continent other than Australia. Being able to assume good intentions in each other until proven otherwise was the foundation of what allowed that classroom environment work and for students, so different from each other, to get along.

What is being described is not a response to bad faith arguments, it feels like an ideological line that insulates one self from outside dissension that uses bad faith arguments as a blanket justification.

That classroom would not be able to exist in this world.

That classroom must be able to exist in this world.

Also, boiling down TB to "some gaming critic" is pretty disingenuous considering he was a big part of GamerGate and that's what's referenced in her response about TB.

Which was something that bothered me about both discussions of this, neither coast talked about how it seems like these companies have learned nothing from GG. I mean, neither of them talked about how this would embolden more people to do the same to anyone they disagree with, which is already happening.

These were all skin-deep discussions that I think focused too much on making sure that Jessica Price was "incorrect" in her handling of the situation, but not enough on how this is going to effect the industry as a whole and how this will and has given a ton more power to angry GGers ready to get a minority fired for saying something they don't agree with.

This mentality sets up a game where the first person to shout "SEXIST!" wins moral superiority, whether they're right or wrong.

If people can't literally consider a claim, then homie we ain't havin a conversation.

DC just ran Dark Nights: Metal, a series where Batman straps The Flash to the hood of the Batmobile, in order to get into the Speed Force. Batman then turns into The Red Death.

Or, in the same series, The Batman Who Laughs has Robins on spiked leashes and collared.

I think everyone needs to read more DC comics.

But if your whole argument against something being sexist is "it's not sexist, and bringing up sexism in the first place is the REAL sexism" then you're not looking to have a conversation in the first place, you're looking to not have to talk about tough subjects or concede that sexism isn't just "I am going to loudly proclaim that women are inferior to men."

Abby not knowing you could rent games from blockbuster just broke my brain.

@turambar: A very tricky subtlety to the situation is that when people communicate they tend to fall back on patterns that they have been socially conditioned to expect or think are appropriate. I don't think he made a calculated effort to do the things that Teasdale mentions. I think he went to a familiar pattern of communication that he has been taught by experience and broader social exposure to think of as innocent without evaluating the deeper assumptions about people's respective place in public relationships that pattern is based in.

That's what bridges the gap between him being an earnest admirer of her work and him also having arranged his messages to contain those unpleasant subtleties that Teasdale elaborates on. Not necessarily intentionally, but should people who are on the wrong end of unpleasant treatment really care if someone meant to do it or not?

One of the hardest things about learning to communicate with people well is feeling pushed and making yourself stop and see where the line actually is. It's very easy to go straight to the kneejerk reaction that you're being attacked, but what if you were on the other side of the line without realizing it? I think a fair way to characterize this situation is that he put his toes over the line without realizing it and they got stepped on.

I'm not surprised about Vinny's comments about social media and no comments on his Instagram and how it reflects his overall feelings, I've always thought that he has no interest in engaging his own community from the inception of Giant Bomb. Doesn't affect how he's the literal best, but I wonder if the bombcast & beastcast didn't have emails how much he'd actually know about any of us.

This is why Price's response is understandable, and one that I am sympathetic to, even if not in agreement with. However, it is not an excuse for third party on-lookers making an analysis in the future rather than an on the spot decision.

This is not a something being directed at Price. This is something being directed at Teasdale's analysis.

I think a fair way to characterize this situation is that he put his toes over the line without realizing it and they got stepped on.

This is basically my view on Deroir's tweets. I'd add that he might not have even been aware the line that he ended up crossing was there.

There are teenagers who don't know what Blockbuster is. Let that sink in for a moment.

Congratulations on your experience, thank you for the work, and I'd love to exist in that world. Unfortunately, assuming good faith also means that monsters can take advantage of that assumption and rise to power.

I don't have a good solution here, and my apologies if it comes off as incredibly cynical. I don't want to say one should always assume bad faith, either -- that leads to a whole lot of problems all around. This whole discussion came from a developer misinterpreting the intent of a tweet, and I'm using all these words not to defend that particular interaction but to try to make it clearer why to some it was completely justifiable to begin with.

People that have to deal with bad actors all day every day in their social media develop calluses about it, then they are derided when the pressure hits a point that makes them react. Death by a thousand politely worded disengenous 'I'm just asking a question here.'

That's a whole lot of asserting about intent and belief to a pretty broad degree there. Denying that something is sexist and even suggesting that an accusation of sexism has elements of sexism itself is in no way an automatic marker of those things you suggest.

It's possible for someone to be wrong in defending against an accusation of sexism, absolutely, and it's also possible for someone to be wrong in understanding an act to be sexist. That's all.

@turambar said:

Its just wild because I rented games from Blockbuster all the time and I'm younger than her, but if you didn't actually go to blockbuster much then I could understand, their legacy is not long lasting

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The second employee getting fired blows the "she was just fired for being rude to a customer" stuff out the window. He wasn't rude at all. Why the hell was he fired? Because they were afraid, straight up, of having to defend their employees from their customers and therefor losing those customers. Employees are replaceable to them.

One argument I want to cross off as a defense for Price: "artists should have the freedom to express themselves freely."

Yes. And if you do that in a public space, others will react freely, since that is how freedom and expression work. If you feel a comment doesn't help/advance you, then leave it or politely say "I wish it was as simple." People van claim you're being a dick by leaving their comment 'to the wayside, but it's totally acceptable to say that they're not familiar with all the details and that you don't have time to explain.

The moment you start being a dick like Price did to some guy on Twitter... man, it's real hard to defend that as artistic freedom.

@skinnersweet: Those comments to her *were* condescending and patronizing. Who thinks that saying "Have you heard of dialogue trees?" to a narrative designer of many years is reasonable?

And what the GB crew were going on about is aside from the social aspect of what was actually said: someone got fired for something they said on a personal account on their own time, and the response was to get rid of her as fast as possible without some kind of process. They were only concerned with unchecking the "Is she an employee?" box as soon as possible to appease a playerbase. An employer owes their employees more than that. Some idiot kid in a cashier position wouldn't get fired for that at a decent store; they'd get reprimended for sure, but not fired were it not a pattern. And that's to say nothing of the second employee who got fired for guilt by association. Why was he fired? Let's say that Jessica deserved to be fired for a moment: why does her coworker not get a talking to, or any kind of due process, for saying some comparatively benign thing in defense of a coworker?

You can be wrong about saying something is sexist, but then you'd have to argue the point. And "the real sexism is pointing out sexism" and "the real racism is pointing out racism" and all those similar arguments aren't good arguments, they're deflections. They're trying to shut down conversations because they come from people who think saying something is sexist is a trump card instead of pointing out a characteristic of something being said or done.

Also, Price didn't celebrate TB's death. Being glad someone can no longer cause harm isn't being glad they're dead, as much as people wish that were the case. You can actually care more about the still alive victims and that doesn't make you bad, it just means your emotions and care have different priorities.

Also I do want to re-iterate what others have said: Whether or not Price's comments were justified is like 5% of the point here. What ANet did in reply to her and to Peter Fries was unconscionable. Any argument about her being the culpable one goes out the window when you consider him, too. Most commenters who are mad about the coverage of the events seem to suspiciously leave that out.

That's actually not a fair characterization, and not what he was saying. He was saying he already engages with that kind of exchange in his professional life, so he doesn't need it when he's just showing off a hobby that he'd prefer remain unblemished by nitpicking and trolls. Also, he has alluded somewhat recently to definitely reading comments on videos, and I have seen him reply in comments sections on everything from podcasts to user-submitted forum posts with good-enough regularity since the site's inception. He knows it's his job to read what people are saying about his content, so he probably does it even if he doesn't want to.

Trust me, I'm aware. Comments and suggestions coming in from every direction that question the competency of the classroom teacher is a regular reality of K-12 education. I'm lucky that they're not usually quite as personal as what I'm sure Price and others like her have to put up with on the regular.

I'd still rather be optimistic and assume good intent until it is abused, even at the risk of letting some bad actors take advantage because I see the alternative and it looks so much worse. Imagine approaching each new student with inherent distrust and alienation.

Of course you can heat up cold brew.

@chudamaru: I think he did it, he finally broke Alex....

Though, to this day I REFUSE to believe Dan is that clueless(which is a hard state of mind to maintain, between pirates and now this).

Dan will always be my favorite.

It isn't artistic freedom, but it is within the purview of freedom of speech as a principle (yes, I know freedom of speech is kinda tiring to talk about, and for some reason some people in the West are keen to make it a partisan issue). Yes, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence in a free and open society, but consequeces like her (and the dude) getting fired run against the principle of free expression.

And look, where you fall on this issue obviously will come down to your individual beliefs, no fuckin doubt, but I happen to believe that people should have the stupid things they say sorted out in social spheres through conversation, not by having their livelihood attacked. I'm sure they'll both land on their feet (hopefully), but it's shitty that just talking trash meant they're out on their ass out of a job and no longer working on the game they were involved in. That fuckin sucks!

@development: Did you just try to GiantBombsplain me?