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The HotSpot - Episode 371

This week, the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X launches are on trial!

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Jul. 24 2020

Cast: Jeff, Brad, Vinny

Posted by: Vinny

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81 Comments

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Benmo316

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When I had an apartment in a big city I loved my in-door antennae. Now that I moved about 40 miles away from a big city I don't get any OTA channels. It's a bummer.

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bathala

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Damn season finale of Fastlane already

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merlin747

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I feel bad depending upon when this was hitting, but I'm still a remote worker and can't watch the live stuff 'til after 5 PM Central (well that and I really don't know the live schedules because my life is way too regimented still and meetings have only increased in "the current time"). We'll see how the 'after' time does... but at least "pre" I could take a workout meeting time...

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merlin747

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Edited By merlin747

Oh crap, I used to work for Nielsen's on their "next-gen" (now current) platform for the grocery biz... I had to leave that life behind me after a short time of the joy of creativity (hey, I was a software Engineer/Architect), when I thought about what was happening and had an opportunity to start a company, I left...

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jakelyne

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Edited By jakelyne

I actually did that ratings thing. Australian version so I don't think it was Nielsen, and it was only for a couple of months? Anyway got a copy of Soul Reaver for PC so it turned out to be worth it.

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doncabesa

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It's a very different mindset, but Xbox is showing that they really don't care if you buy their new console or not as long as you're signed up for Gamepass. Completely different from Sony and Nintendo in that way.

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tescovee

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load times are why im excited. Something that is abysmal on current gen.

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IronHam

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Astrobot comes pre-installed on all PS5s.

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freedo

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Part of me wants to get all irate about all the details the guys are getting wrong here (i.e. Spider-Man: MM performance mode is exactly what Jeff is asking for, 4K AND 60fps) but really it’s not their fault. The messaging for these consoles is just so goddamned confusing. It’s impossible to keep up. It felt like Xbox had the clearest marketing for awhile, but now I have no idea what’s a next gen exclusive and what’s gonna be playable on Xbox One. And like Brad, I thought that Miles Morales game was going to be the only exclusive, but I guess that Demon‘s Souls remake is supposed to also be a launch title? I mean, cool, but why didn’t I already know that? It just feels like a mess. And it’s only going to get messier once they announce price on these things.

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AV_Gamer

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Edited By AV_Gamer

If people are complaining now, wait until the prices are announced and we found out that we have to pay nearly 1K for these new consoles that so far seem to just be slight upgrades from the current tech, not the massive upgrade gamers were looking for. I hope this isn't the case, but the constant stalling by both Sony and Microsoft has got me a little worried, especially Sony. And there is the 60 to 70 dollar price increase that developers might force just to play the slight upgraded version of a game you can enjoy on the current consoles.

The upgrade path is not looking so good anymore.

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abadwind

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DISTURBED BABY

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A_Turtle

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Does any one know how I can add the hotspot in the apple podcast app?

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professorx86

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The argument that XSX is pointless when you can just play stuff on PC doesn't hold up, because at the end of the day, most people still don't have 'gaming' pc's and don't intend on spending over a thousand dollars to build one and keep up with the maintenance involved to stay in that area of the gaming-sphere.

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ArjanN

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The argument that XSX is pointless when you can just play stuff on PC doesn't hold up, because at the end of the day, most people still don't have 'gaming' pc's and don't intend on spending over a thousand dollars to build one and keep up with the maintenance involved to stay in that area of the gaming-sphere.

This, and that at the end of the day like 98% of the PS5 console library will also be on PC.

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Hynes22

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@freedo: Demon's Souls isn't a launch game. It doesn't have a release date.

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Hynes22

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Weirdest thing for me is that Xbox apparently doesn't have any announced first party games for 2021 / 2022.

Outside of Halo and Psychonaughts 2.

Everything else is Series X and PC which they've said now multiple times won't start dropping for 2 years.

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Humanity

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The half step consoles were a major turning point in consoles going in a really bad direction. Now it’s really hard to tell what space they’re occupying on the market. They used to be a cheaper, simpler alternative to PC gaming with their own unique catalog of games. PC had Sim City, Civilzation, Mechwarrior etc while consoles had Sly Cooper and Zelda. Now you have everything on everything and performance modes and subscriptions with multi tier barriers to entry and it’s generally a mess.

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damonkey64

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Vinny literally had me crying laughing pumping in acoustic down with the sickness

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bruhaha

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For those who haven’t played RDR2 or TLOU2, a warning that Brad casually spoils key elements of those 2 games at 1:12:20. Skip ahead 30 seconds if you don’t want to get spoiled.

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mellotronrules

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good lord i love hearing jeff spit game about games, but whenever story comes up i'm reminded we live on different planets. none of his comments or more iconoclastic-ish opinions are surprising (frankly it's a lot of the appeal), but boy howdy do i (as vinny mentioned) experience games and story differently than he does.

jeff will never play it (and fair enough because he doesn't like the way ND games play, and i'm relatively certain he's read a plot summary and/or leaks), but i think TLoU2 is a decent example of an anti-marvel story that- although in budget, aesthetic and technique feels very hollywood- in terms of the story it tells, the 'hero' and where it leaves it (and what it wants the audience to feel)- is so far from disney it's comical.

he's not wrong that most AAA games phone-in their story- but even if you think it's poorly executed or disagree with the direction- it's hard to deny TLoU2 makes choices that, at that budget, are not so typical. it has me comparing the writing/character development to that of other previous favorites of mine (such as mass effect 2)- and for me, the comparisons really aren't doing those older games any favors.

jeff even mentioned that he's more likely to head to a more-narrative focused medium when he wants to ingest a quality story- which from my perspective is so bananas...games that choose to emphasize it are a narrative medium (arguably the most interesting one at the moment), and when you compare the best of them to other pop culture media (Game of Thrones, Star Wars, Marvel, etc.)- they're really not as inferior as one might think.

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Psykodoughboy

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I don't understand why are people are assuming Sony showed everything they had? They had 2 conference one was a technical presentation, and the other was the first time they gave a glimpse of what they had.

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stradalemc

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Edited By stradalemc

Here’s an insider secret. No AAA launch games are built exclusively for new hardware. Expecting that is a fallacy, work timelines don’t work that way. 85% of dev was done on previous hardware/software. That is the nature of the beast. We cant dev before we have actual hardware. Microsoft has just exposed what we have always done. Launch games are mostly developed on old hardware and it is fed to consumers as “exclusively” on x new console.

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calumb90

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The staff's lack of enthusiasm regarding the next gen consoles echoes the exact opinion I had/have with the Xbox One X and the PS4 Pro. Why didn't they have the same reservations with the ".5" consoles? Perhaps buying those mid gen consoles has contributed to their lack of enthusiasm for next gen.

As someone who still has both base consoles, I look forward to the PS5 and XSX.

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mattgriffin

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Love all the radio talk!!

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pearsonpark

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Really glad this show exists. It’s my Saturday morning decompress from the week.

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freedo

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@hynes22: Klepek mentioned on Waypoint Radio that it’s coming out this year. He could be mistaken, but if it is a launch game, than of course it doesn’t have a date since the PS5 doesn’t have a date. However, this just feeds into the point I and the guys were making that the messaging around these console releases is confusing as fuck.

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grayfox

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@bruhaha said:

For those who haven’t played RDR2 or TLOU2, a warning that Brad casually spoils key elements of those 2 games at 1:12:20. Skip ahead 30 seconds if you don’t want to get spoiled.

@brad i wish you guys would be better about avoiding casual spoilers. New retail games are $80 CAD, before tax, plus who has the time to play all these games. The industry is kinda awful already. A week after TLOU2 came out you started seeing articles talking about stuff that wasn't in the marketing. You don't have to read the articles to start piecing together parts of the narrative. I still want to play this game, but when you add up the bits and pieces I've picked up i feel like a lot of the surprise has been taken away from me.

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colourful_hippie

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Really funny how Halo Infinite is turning into the "Wall Guy" moment for this next-generation.

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doncabesa

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@humanity: they're simpler, cheaper alternatives to computers still. Nothing has changed.

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htr10

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I love this podcast so much. The opening 10 minutes...just magical.

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doncabesa

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I miss the Jeff and Phil interview, really hope that happens this year. It's the highlight of e3 for me each year :-)

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AzureGale

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@grayfox said:
@bruhaha said:

For those who haven’t played RDR2 or TLOU2, a warning that Brad casually spoils key elements of those 2 games at 1:12:20. Skip ahead 30 seconds if you don’t want to get spoiled.

@brad i wish you guys would be better about avoiding casual spoilers. New retail games are $80 CAD, before tax, plus who has the time to play all these games. The industry is kinda awful already. A week after TLOU2 came out you started seeing articles talking about stuff that wasn't in the marketing. You don't have to read the articles to start piecing together parts of the narrative. I still want to play this game, but when you add up the bits and pieces I've picked up i feel like a lot of the surprise has been taken away from me.

Look, I get it. Not everyone can play games day 1. However, it's been over a month since TLoU2 came out and Brad's avoided mentioning much with regards to the plot up to this point. Also, the description of the video says outright that this would be one of the games discussed. That should've been a signal to perhaps steer clear of the episode for the moment.

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schindigg

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@benmo316: Haha yes it can be a hassle, they make antennas that can still do it from that far but they cost a pretty penny. I'm like Brad, I'm 35 and have never had "normal cable" especially with OTA channels and then Netflix and Hulu or Youtube tv there's just no reason to ever even think about Dish or something like that.

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Moderp

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if only they packed games in consoles still that proved exactly everything we talk about...

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haneybd87

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Edited By haneybd87

I think one thing they’re missing in this XSX vs. PC argument is that a PC that does ray tracing is expensive as hell. Now I know we don’t know what a XSX will cost yet but it’s going to be way cheaper than a modern PC with a 2080ti in there. I for one am waiting to get an XSX to hop on the ray tracing bandwagon because I don’t want to drop $1200 on a video card.

Edit: Also PCs are a pain in the ass. The number of times I’ve just hit walls trying to get games working because of some weird random nonsense is way too many and that’s generally avoidable on a console.

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Hynes22

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Yeah the Video Games aren't a narrative medium that Jeff was implying is kind of wack. His opinions on individual game's story are subjective and valid but to say whole cloth it's not a good narrative medium just comes off incredibly dismissive.

I don't disagree that most AAA games narrative can be formulaic, similar to Marvel movies, but citing God of War and (it really seemed to me he was dancing around mentioning) The Last of Us when talking about games that don't take risks with their stories is really weird. TLOU Part 2 is probably one of riskiest narrative decision of any game this generation.

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Deadstar

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Jeff, you take it back! Knack is fun. Knack 2 was even better.

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bruhaha

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@azuregale said:

Look, I get it. Not everyone can play games day 1. However, it's been over a month since TLoU2 came out and Brad's avoided mentioning much with regards to the plot up to this point. Also, the description of the video says outright that this would be one of the games discussed. That should've been a signal to perhaps steer clear of the episode for the moment.


FWIW TLOU2 was a 35+ hour game for me and took me 3 weeks to finish and that’s with me forcing myself to do so ASAP on my schedule so I wouldn’t have to worry about spoiling myself. Not everyone has the time or ability to finish it in a week or two and the game’s heavy themes have many people taking breaks (including Brad himself).

GB‘s own spoilercast wasn’t recorded until last week because staff who didn’t start playing until public release hadn’t yet finished it. Talking casually about just 1 week later doesn’t respect the listener. Yes, the episode is tagged with TLOU2 discussion but so has basically every Bombcast and Beastcast episode since the game’s release.

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haneybd87

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Edited By haneybd87

@hynes22: That’s not what he was saying. He was saying that they aren’t solely a narrative medium and that if they’re not actually fun to play the story isn’t enough to propel him through. It’s a valid point. If you just want a story there are mediums for just a story, but games you have to play too and if it’s not fun to play then why not watch or read one of the thousands of things that don’t rely on you also performing actions that aren’t fun?

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AngriGhandi

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Edited By AngriGhandi

Hearing these three talk for 15 minutes about how "something feels off with this console launch" and completely forget we're in the middle of a year-long global pandemic was a little odd.

Most announced games got delayed, it stands to reason unannounced next-gen games got their schedules screwed even further-- particularly considering you can't work with new confidential dev kits effectively when everyone's stuck at home.

Also, I think it's time for Jeff to just start saying he doesn't like stories at all, in general. He's constantly saying he doesn't watch movies, TV shows, or read books, and now he's added video games to the pay no mind list, so... yeah. Just say you don't like stories. Then everyone can be like "that's weird," take it into account, and move on.

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tropesage

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I think one thing they’re missing in this XSX vs. PC argument is that a PC that does ray tracing is expensive as hell. Now I know we don’t know what a XSX will cost yet but it’s going to be way cheaper than a modern PC with a 2080ti in there. I for one am waiting to get an XSX to hop on the ray tracing bandwagon because I don’t want to drop $1200 on a video card.

Edit: Also PCs are a pain in the ass. The number of times I’ve just hit walls trying to get games working because of some weird random nonsense is way too many and that’s generally avoidable on a console.

All of the rtx cards do ray tracing including the 2060 which can be had for a little over 300.

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haneybd87

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Edited By haneybd87

@tropesage: Yeah but you’re not exactly getting great performance out of anything short of a 2080 and good luck getting 4k out of any of these cards with ray tracing on. Good luck getting 4k on the lower 2xxx cards with ray tracing off. Your $300 2060 argument isn’t great even from an economic perspective. You’re still going to be spending at least $1000 total for a decent PC once you factor everything else in. My point about PCs being a pain in the ass stands regardless of how good the PC is. Nothing is ever simple on a PC. I’m the type of person that has the understanding to usually fix or work around any problems that may arise because I’m quite knowledgeable about these things and even I’m sick of dealing with that nonsense. Most people wouldn’t have the first clue about what to do when problems arise. A console, by and large, just works when you start a game. I know there are exceptions to this but it’s far rarer in a console than a PC.

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Humanity

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@doncabesa: I agree that generally this is the case, because a self contained console is always going to be easier to use than an “open” system like a PC. That said my intention with that post, and apologies if this wasn’t clear, is that there is a lot more confusion on the console market that can lead to frustration. I have a base PS4 from the beginning of the generation and I’m now generally waiting for a Digital Foundry breakdown on Pro/Regular before I decide on a purchase. Having to worry about how a game will perform on my version of the PS4 runs counter to the general notion of a one-size-fits-all box. Having to make the choice what you want to compromise with performance or quality is also a decision that consoles never dabbled with before. As someone that has played PC games since the early 90’s and had to content with the technicals headaches associated with them as well as the highs of great performance, I always really appreciated the simplicity of console gaming.

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I agree and disagree with Jeff on Sony games, while i agree i think they are "Marvel films" in nature, big budget, very carefully made but ultimately designed to have mass market appeal, i think there's nothing remotely stupid about Marvel films, for the incredible number of them they have made it is equally incredible how good they are, i've laughed, cried and thoroughly enjoyed those films.
On the Sony end it's not the mass appeal that gets me, it's almost that they have too much development, The Witcher 3 is an example of a game that had an insane amount of development, but for the massive budget and development time it took to make that game, lip sync is passable, there's hardly any face animation, weapon variety is non existent, some people aren't thrilled with the combat, it doesn't run amazingly well on base consoles, but what it does do right sets a standard that hasn't been surpassed, and may never be surpassed.
That's what i'm worried about with Cyberpunk, if it's unremarkable in how overly polished and standard it is, like a highly polished and standard Sony game, it might bounce off me, i really think there's a case for games feeling "over developed", like they polished the soul out of it.

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Edited By knoxt

I present to Giantbomb, the longest comment I have ever made ever on the internet. It's okay. You could read it, or not.

Over the last year I was saving up, for what I wasn't sure for a while, and wound up going with a PC st of upgrades, as equivalent (SSD aside/hardware unique frameworks aside) to either console- but before doing so, I had to do a lot of research and a lot of thinking about games, companies, what leads to what, how much exclusives matter, how far hardware can actually manifest in games that would push me in either direction, and I wind up, well, with an RTX2080ti, (where 2070 is purportedly* similar to both console GPUs but that's being really reductive), and, in the end- I learned a lot, a lot of surprising circumstantial causal coincidental situations involving Nvidia-Developer deals made for two of the only RTX enabled launch games for either system- and overall, winding up satisfied with my decision, in equal parts also generally just being so curious/perplexed by messaging and to what level of control/foresight/dealmaking prowess either SY/MS has to make an argument, much less what the next two year plan even IS. Sony seems to put all it's bets on exclusives (or does it? HZD on PC imminently), And Microsoft seems to bet it's farm on microtansactions and universal access to Gamepass and or microtransactions and I have no idea why one would get a series X over a computer to be honest, it is a very weird strategy in begging the question of 'jesus do they really earn that much kickback from subs and MT's?" Apparently I guess, or I dunno what the hell they're doing putting Halo out without the "crack team of raytracers" as Vinny put it, (which is actually either rumored or even confirmed as happening some time after launch).

related on the raytracing thing as far as being the 'well I should get a new console for the tech"- Hey Sony, hi, Microsoft, Epic/Remedy- y'all like money right? Work out a deal and get Control as a launch game, you sillies, it's a no-brainer win for everyone. Control rules, and...it has all the stuff you're trying to sell with cross-platform upgrades, as well as showcasing the hardware, in a way that game players (myself included) would (and did) happily start over again just to marvel at how the future looks. And it's here! Now! How this deal hasn't been made as an easy showpiece the way it was for RTX cards is....weird. Anyway- aside from this weird omission by all involved; I posted it the other day- but I and many, will actually have a re-contextualization of how valuable those really thin launch PS4/XBO games like Ryse and KZ Shadowfall were to making THE case for year one or day one hardware sales. Which, man, they did.

I worked a mom+pop style console-cade/vintage+present game store where when the week of launch for respective PS4/XBO happened, there was not a single screen in the place that wasn't running either Ryse of Killzone Shadowfall. Very shallow launch-ware is shallow, but man did those graphics move systems fast, which is what they were designed to do- I am very surprised neither microsoft of sony is doing what I would have assumed and come swinging the battle axe of raytracing as hard as they can with low-risk/development turnaround time short-form games at LEAST to generate as the crew put it, a reason or thing you can show someone and it's immediately apparent what we haven't seen (outside the limited RTX enabled games which basically is what we're going to be looking at for the first couple of years on the new consoles).. The only two games that are ostensibly doing this in (tandem with PC release as far as all-technological-status quo PC/console parity and timing by circumstance) ... are Cyberpunk and Watch Dogs Legion.

More than that? Ya got Halo, I guess. But that's on PC. too, and isn't loaded with RTX (yet) which is (partly) why that presentation footy looked...under-powered for what the XBSX promises.search for 'why Halo infinite looks so flat/ what's going on with Halo Infinite graphics, " some pretty good breakdowns on why that footage looks so weak, having to do with simulated lighting with a time of day system, and lack of raytracing to do so.)

In the end what we tangibly will have on day one, aside from Astrobot and Halo making very little use of anything other than a beefier version of what exists:, The best showpieces of what these systems are capable of on day one, is more or less thanks to deals made by Nvidia, in promotion of their RTX card line working with a handfull of Developers ready to embrace RTX, (CPR, Ubisoft, Remedy ), winding up being the centerpiece games not just on PC for RTX, but represents stuff you cannot get on the previous console, aka the reason to buy either new box. Thanks Nvidia? Another weird: both consoles are running their competitor's cards- this is getting really complicated and weird.

Different times for sure, but having a 2080ti PC, I am enjoying my second run of Control with RTX full using DLSS at AI 1440 > 4k at 60 FPS, and I can safely say that it's basically all the validation that this Raytracing stuff is legit, and worth it for our crazy graphical future potential, but also that the parity between PC and console should be clean, but is seemingly unecessarily getting messy because of the different wars each console is fighting instead of directly competing side by side on horsepower. That war is over, in fact, so may be the war between PC and console. Wouldn't that be nice?

Anyway, a more practical and sensible thought as well- and this is for video game players of any console- with money as a thing to be wise about right now, and given how cheaply one can acquire AAA games at like 75% off or, with gamepass, or even epic's freebie giveaways along with PS+ past gives, I'll go ahead and say- I don't know the math, but if they stopped making video games RIGHT NOW-, I venture that I would not have the life-span to complete my existing steam backlog of games that I own and haven't touched, dating back as far as the Witcher 3, or earlier even. also, because of the 'what actually matters for money spent given world situation, I'm totally fine not buying any new hardware for exclusives that don't exist yet.

Now may be the time one holds off on money for consoles, for like, life-important sensible reasons, and lack of new-hardware-sclusies, to take a long look (i suspect for many) a PACKED existing library of unplayed games purchased on curiousity/premise/interest, and weigh that up in both inherent value, fun you can have now versus promises of fun because of technology future tense- and sunk cost on a new console that will take years to produce a fraction of what you haven't played yet, probably because of some other game you haven't finished either. So whatever happens with the new consoles, caring strongly about what either microsoft or sony are GOING to do is less important to what it is you actually find fun about games, and if you can already have that with what ya currently got. If you have the cash and want the latest and greatest, cool, I dig, but if you want adventure, intrigue, video gameage that is new to you, Holy SH* there are a lot of video games that are amazing, that you may already own and forgot about.

That was a lot of typing. I am hungry. Great cast as always.

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knoxt

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Edited By knoxt

@haneybd87: You would be the market/demographic that I would expect to be bummed out by the lack of launch software that showcases this, but also are the market/demographic that is the literal reason they are making these contained-package systems. Honestly PC's are a lot less complicated and or problematic than they used to be, though it does require a bit of extra elbow grease and upkeept- the benefits outweigh the pains at this point (like, if a pc were to red-ring, I can determine why and for a fractional cost/hassle fix it quickly as an example, a console is a trip to store/mail carrier etc, not to mention the incrimental-upgrades with console actually work out to be about the same cost as a top of the line PC if one were to choose to do that and combined the cost all around. Not to say a top-spec PC right now is future proof exactly but it's pretty dang close.......as is the pricing for a PS5/XBO relative RTX 2060/2070, each console being just a smidge outdone by the 2080ti if tech heads I've gone over this with have their info straight.

Ironically, future-proofing is exactly what both sony and microsoft are doing by releasing this hardware ahead of the software embrace by the developers they haven't contracted directly outside a few in-house and a few third party that decided only recently to switch to whatever engine takes advantage of RTX graphical stuffs and cpu offload. Which,...again makes me confused as to why, Control, both a fantastic game and with RTX on a 2070 even, is speculatively* (not enough known about how the customized GPUS in there will clock for reals yet) just about even- is not a launch-"port"-from PC for console launch pull, to legitimize the case for hardware purchase even if it's a game that exists on previous consoles.

To me, 'porting' the PC version of Control to consoles would honestly sell the system more than a saddled Halo game between generations, if I were inclined to buy either, simply for the fact that it's 'the unseen tech I don't have yet' and could rapidly be deployable alongside two other games with RTX support stemming from PC promising the same visual upgrade. Halo isn't one of them, in any super duper meaningful way that actually takes that kind of dramatic a step forward- which, is why it's actually catching all the heat- it literally has to do with the lighting in the game, aka lack of RTX (which may or may not be confirmed as coming later on). Either way, it's very weird to think that (to me) Halo's pretty unremarkable visuals compared with IDK, Medium's obvious leap in tech, is what you ground your launch window with. Then again, if Microsoft truly isn't about the hardware over the software, I guess it doesn't really matter where you play, which is kind of why I went with PC...

And with Microsoft dependably deploying all games on PC, and Sony seemingly leaning in the PC friendly eco-space lately, (and most of what I saw them present listed for PC as well), there's a shaky but relatively sensible case there to be made about PC being possibly both systems in one, or the most sensible pick when it comes to this confusing generational leap. That's not counting the super fast SSD stuff, your friends choice of platform or your favorite super-exclusive-console-ONLY games, (again, looking at PS4 for that), IMO makes the cost/effort of rethinking 'maybe PC' for access and cost staying relatively level, with piecemeal-always-upgradeable costs that are marginal compared to step-up consoles like, a XBSX ...X+ or something down the line. Your call of course but you might be able to have the best of both platforms on ostensibly a modifiable and (possibly because of steam sales and epic gives) a cheaper platform in the long run, with both microsoft and sony console exclusives available.

Anyway, I am glad there exists at least a hopeful market, at least in these comments because as it stands I'm not seeing much enthusiasm for either console at all, with PC being a pretty popular option from what my gaming circles are going with. While sure a 2080TI is/was ludicrously overpriced right now, expect that to drop *significantly* in the soonish-future with the 300 series of cards and whatever ATI is doing, not to mention price of consoles with equivalent++ SSD tech that Nvidia/AMD will have to both compete with price wise for power per card to stay in the uh, game. This is all not important but it's interesting and I have had a lot of thought put into wether or not I was going in on a console or a PC. Either way..

The rays and the tracing really are f*ing impressive and to me really do represent the generational leap, so the fact these systems have..ttwoo.. games that make use of it (?) with semi-close relative proximity to launch is simultaneously confusing, but a product of needing to work with PS4/XBO devkits (and why Control ran like ass on PS4 as one example of why these next consoles matter if you want to continue on the console path, hopefully free of current gen baggage slowing production down) -as Jeff put it, third party's catering to the lowest denomination is not exciting, or productive in terms of showing off new hardware-

Honestly I come away wondering if it would have been a smarter move to delay both console releases one more year, so RT development could mature / find a foot-hold at LEAST on PC, so that their day 1 showcase could be at least the level of impressive showpiece each previous generation has had.

@colourful_hippie said:

Really funny how Halo Infinite is turning into the "Wall Guy" moment for this next-generation.

Dude, totally, yes you nailed it.

@stradalemc said:

Here’s an insider secret. No AAA launch games are built exclusively for new hardware. Expecting that is a fallacy, work timelines don’t work that way. 85% of dev was done on previous hardware/software. That is the nature of the beast. We cant dev before we have actual hardware. Microsoft has just exposed what we have always done. Launch games are mostly developed on old hardware and it is fed to consumers as “exclusively” on x new console.

-....ackthualllyyy... most AAA software for Console hardware we have now, is built on a computer using a dev-kit to match-compare against to know limitations of what the PC-Built asset/engine can pull off on more limited hardware, and after establishing that baseline, work on the game, then optimize, then tweak some more, on loop until it works really well. This has more to do with exclusivity deals. Take naughty dog for example, they probably do use a devkit more than say Remedy did because as an in-house Sony owned studio, they have to prioritize their attention to what will maximize and astound within the limitations of what a PS4 can do. That certainly requires a dev-kit to go back and forth with.

Now, the difference with the next set of consoles is that they are even more similar to existing PC architecture, even in cases surpassing the ease of development and porting given AI DLSS equivalent stuff and standardized OS usage, as well as GPU's able to reproduce basically the same stuff like RTX the same ways or equivalently easy to reproduce as the PC counterpart. There's actually very little difference, so the need for a dev kit to back-and-forth check to see what's doable on conventional game development parity as far as what we'll see or have seen coming is very small. The exception comes down to games that make use of instantaneous loading, which may not always be the case, it's a matter of when PC architecture catches up with what these new consoles are promising. So in other words, the tech and ease of porting natively from developing a game on a computer, as has been the standard, is now one step less than it was, having to fit around hardware with limitation. Those limitations are replaced with even more potential, in fact, so the weirdest part actually is that there isn't an ABUNDANCE of games that take advantage of hgiher powered tech, or, porting up to put it one way. Backwards compatability is I guess the way they're phrasing it, but that is honestly not the reason 'new console only' stuff is a slow-trickle for impressive-unseen-before's in terms of games available, it's the newness of ALL the tech across the board, not the translation of that technology from a computer, to a devkit, to PS5/XBSX, to your eyeballs.

And, I guess I'll again point to Control as a finished, RTX built-showpiece as a case example of everything Sony/Microsoft are trying to sell, hardware-wise, and that it was developed simultaneously for PC, PS4, XBO, using UE4 and DX11/12, but has exactly the kind of tech consoles are trying to sell, and it exists already, making part of 'waiting on devkits' a little moot, unless we were strictly talking about taking advantage of super fast SSD loading, but that's really not the biggest selling point for any of this, if we're being real.

The idea that games are made by heavily relying on the console hardware as a juggle between PC construction and final disc press optimized and all, used to be true, but I don't really see that, over all, being much more than making sure the metaphorical EXE has the right encoding to run, making PC-powered graphical powerhouse games almost 100% identical requiring no 'versions' of the game, EXCEPT for the fact that they have to put these mentioned games on previous hardware, which actually does require a devkit. This is getting confusing, but it does make sense in a way that is...well, confusing, but hopefully becomes a pretty clean 1-1 singularity moment for PC, RTX and developer use of engines that allow for stuff that we haven't seen break out of it's shell in full yet- with Control and Metro Exodus probably being the only actual examples of "next gen" tech that are buyable right now. Again, you could probbably just plop those games on XBSX and PS5 with (sure a devkit) but like, turnaround time that is microscopic to the time it will take them to dev-kit optimize those same games for their PS4/XBO counterparts. For the reasons.

HZD arrives on PC next week, which honestly, like Red Dead 2, had probably a lot of work, but less than a 'remaster's' worth of work, to 're-scale' what at one point ran on a PIC already, was dialed at the same time/within development time use with PS4 hardware as THE priority, so the work to put it on PC, like a lot of games, is relatively speaking not a huge task. One step further, the work/time involved to then take the PC version on a PS5 would take possibly even LESS time. So Devkit or not, that's not the hold up on tech for what exists, it's for what has just begun to exist: Raytracing, and super fast SSD's which are a universal video game recent breakthrough. The devkit is a computer, with architectural, and special case SSD reliant exclusives we won't have for..a whle...Dev kit useage, and console-pc-console versions of games first party or otherwise is not the hold up to showcase what looks nice, it's what looks impossible to do on a previous console, aka, existing PC graphics tech/game engine technology overall, and how ready developers are to use it across the board. The devkit is a high powered PC, because the consoles are high powered PCs, the delay is in the newness of RTX, and studios that use engines that A: take advantage of this tech, and B: choose to go that route even, and C: how much they are obligated to develop and optimize (using a devkit) for the current gen limitations.

Obviously, the lineup of developers that have managed to punch out titles with that tech are countable on fingers, and the games produced even less, anywhere, so that is actually why we have such a delay on 'new hardware only' stuff, not the dev-kit learning time it traditionally took in the PS3 era, or PS4 era where PC technology advanced so far in 7 years they had to make stop-gap console variants to keep up, with help of a devkit. This is becoming history, moreso when both sony and microsoft decide to fully lean into their new system tech capabilites, specifically RTX, because, for listed A, B, C reasons I listed, will across teh develpoer/game engine board be standardized. No years of optimization required. Which is exciting.

Ow my head, That was even more typing and I'm still hungry.

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I would love to get to a point where videogame discourse doesn't come down to "the games I like are good, the games I don't like are bad". Nothing new consoles can do about that though.