Something went wrong. Try again later
    Follow

    Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords

    Game » consists of 9 releases. Released Dec 06, 2004

    With the Jedi nearly extinct, the galaxy is on the verge of falling into complete anarchy. As an exiled Jedi Knight regaining the Force, you must choose your path: help restore the Jedi Order, or embrace the dark side.

    A better story than KOTOR 1? *Possible Spoilers*

    Avatar image for spacetrucking
    spacetrucking

    1080

    Forum Posts

    91292

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 4

    User Lists: 6

    #1  Edited By spacetrucking

    I don't think this is a popular opinion but I actually prefer the story in KOTOR 2. I found the ending to be good actually because it perfectly fit the Exile's character (regardless of which side you choose). Its not just the Exile's story that interested me. Apart from Bastilla in the first game, every single supporting character in KOTOR 2 was more interesting to me. And when it comes to roleplaying and gameplay options, this game is so much better because of the influence system and the option of turning your friends into Jedis.

    Whenever I have the urge to play a Star Wars game, more often than not I turn to KOTOR 2.

    Avatar image for magnum
    Magnum

    375

    Forum Posts

    310

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 0

    User Lists: 6

    #2  Edited By Magnum

    What? KotOR 2 is usually universally regarded as unfinished. It just ends. The player is left with more questions then answers. I can remember my exact words when I finished the game.


    "Awesome..... wait, WHAT?"
    Avatar image for pause
    pause422

    6350

    Forum Posts

    16

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 0

    User Lists: 0

    #3  Edited By pause422

    It was still a great game yeah,but regardless of which characters from either game you liked more, it definitely didn't give much closure. At least with Kotor 1 (no mater what side) Revan's story gets a proper ending.

    Avatar image for systech
    Systech

    4155

    Forum Posts

    2448

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 1

    User Lists: 0

    #4  Edited By Systech

    There is a way better twist in the first one


    SPOILERS








    You are Revan. Nuff said.

    Avatar image for atejas
    atejas

    3151

    Forum Posts

    215

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 2

    User Lists: 1

    #5  Edited By atejas

    KoTOR 2 had the potential to be better, but it was waaay unfinished

    Avatar image for systech
    Systech

    4155

    Forum Posts

    2448

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 1

    User Lists: 0

    #6  Edited By Systech
    Magnum said:
    "What? KotOR 2 is usually universally regarded as unfinished. It just ends. The player is left with more questions then answers. I can remember my exact words when I finished the game.

    "Awesome..... wait, WHAT?"
    "
    It's been a long time since I played KOTOR II, but did they at least tell you why you have the F-ing Ebon Hawk?
    Avatar image for spacetrucking
    spacetrucking

    1080

    Forum Posts

    91292

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 4

    User Lists: 6

    #7  Edited By spacetrucking
    Magnum said:
    "What? KotOR 2 is usually universally regarded as unfinished. It just ends. The player is left with more questions then answers. I can remember my exact words when I finished the game.

    "Awesome..... wait, WHAT?"
    "
    I just enjoy a good teaser I guess. Like I enjoyed Empire Strikes Back the most of all the Star Wars movies and that one ended on a somewhat hopeful but abrupt note. Its the same with KOTOR 2. Apart from a couple of supporting characters, I don't think the Exile actually needed anymore closure. She (going with the canon story here) took care of the academy and Kreia and jets off to search for Revan. I think I'm just happy enough to wait for KOTOR 3 or an MMO to find out what happens later.

    And no matter how much time Obsidian had, I'm pretty sure this is the way they planned to end the story of the Exile anyway. The only sad part was that the minor characters like Bao-Dur didn't get any sort of closure. As far as the Exile though, I think thats as far as the character can go. She started and ended the game as a wild card. I like that.
    Avatar image for magnum
    Magnum

    375

    Forum Posts

    310

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 0

    User Lists: 6

    #8  Edited By Magnum

    It's a good game. I really enjoy it. I think most of the animosity I had for the game was a result of thats how I figured thats how the franchise would end. With no news coming from Obsidian and it looked like BioWare going to make Kung Fu games (I played and somewhat liked Jade Empire, btw) I thought the franchise was dead. Now it looks like we'll get  four franchises out of this type of game with Alpha Protocol, a possible KotOR 3, Mass Effect and a KotOR MMO. I'm effing stoked. Finely some new KotOR. Some answers.


    I'm way to into Star Wars. Maybe it's a bad thing these games are coming.
    Avatar image for lies
    Lies

    3985

    Forum Posts

    32517

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 12

    User Lists: 14

    #9  Edited By Lies

     Killjoy said:

    "Magnum said:
    "What? KotOR 2 is usually universally regarded as unfinished. It just ends. The player is left with more questions then answers. I can remember my exact words when I finished the game.

    "Awesome..... wait, WHAT?"
    "
    I just enjoy a good teaser I guess. Like I enjoyed Empire Strikes Back the most of all the Star Wars movies and that one ended on a somewhat hopeful but abrupt note. Its the same with KOTOR 2. Apart from a couple of supporting characters, I don't think the Exile actually needed anymore closure. She (going with the canon story here) took care of the academy and Kreia and jets off to search for Revan. I think I'm just happy enough to wait for KOTOR 3 or an MMO to find out what happens later.

    And no matter how much time Obsidian had, I'm pretty sure this is the way they planned to end the story of the Exile anyway. The only sad part was that the minor characters like Bao-Dur didn't get any sort of closure. As far as the Exile though, I think thats as far as the character can go. She started and ended the game as a wild card. I like that.
    "
    Yeah, but the thing is there was much more to the end of that game. Content that EXISTED, but had to get cut because of time crunch. Duels between Atton and Disciple, Visas and Handmaiden, the party attacks Kreia, Atton vs. Sion, GOTO vs. remote actually made sense, Atton heading off with the exile at the end, resolution to Mandalore's and Bao-Dur's stories...

    But we never got any of that because of Obsidian being rushed. I imagine they meant to keep the same basic structure, but we lost a lot of detail.
    Avatar image for psr388
    psr388

    267

    Forum Posts

    -1

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 0

    User Lists: 0

    #10  Edited By psr388

    folly

    none can beat kotor

    Avatar image for biggerbomb
    BiggerBomb

    7011

    Forum Posts

    -1

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 0

    User Lists: 4

    #11  Edited By BiggerBomb
    I disagree with the TC for many reasons. My post will contain major spoilers, beware.

    -
    -
    -
    -
     The entire story of KOTOR II was teasing the player about revealing the whereabouts of Revan and why he left known space.  KOTOR II teases you with information about why Canderous became the Mandalore, the fate of Bastila, why the Exile has the Ebon Hawk, and the origins of Kreia (a la Darth Traya.) The game also does not reveal exactly when or how Kreia trained Revan and how in anyway that relates to Darth Malak.

    There is very little information about Darth Nihulius' rise to power and the reason for Darth Sion's fate. I love some of the characters in KOTOR II and I am disappointed with others. I feel like what could have been a fantastic story is riddled with plot holes and questions which go unanswered.

    There are two kinds of plot twists; good plot twists and bad plot twists. Let me elaborate:

    A good plot twist is one which you do not see coming, yet in retrospect it makes absolute sense and the pieces all fit together in an outstanding, meticulous, and elaborate manner. This is what KOTOR had with the revelation that you are indeed Darth Revan.

    A bad plot twist is one that you either see coming from the very beginning, or in the case of KOTOR II you do not see coming; however it makes absolutely no sense retrospectively and is out of context with the rest of the story.

    If the trimumvirate Sith Lords (Sion, Nihulius, and Traya) were all as powerful and feared as KOTOR II claims they are, you would have heard of them in the original Knights of the Old Republic. It is one thing to have a discreet Sith Lord in the new or old trilogy of Star Wars movies, but in the time of the Old Republic the Sith were an empire at war with the Republic and the Jedi. There is no reason why these Sith Lords could have such power over the force and such influence among the Sith yet still be obscure enough to be unmentioned and unknown.

    Had the Exile had some sort of connection to Revan and eventually alluded to Darth Revan's fate then the story could have been complete and fufilling. Unfortunatly this is not the case and the story ends abruptly with so many questions unanswered.
    I will admit that Obsidian greatly improved the gameplay of KOTOR II to the point that the game is actually more fun to play; what with actual robes, an influence system, and the prestige classes but the story is incomplete and irrelevant in the KOTOR universe.
     
    I believe that the original Knights of the Old Republic is the better of the two. Unfortunatly we will not get an actual sequel, rather we get Star Wars: Galaxies - Back to the Drawing Board Edition.

    What a shame.
    Avatar image for spacetrucking
    spacetrucking

    1080

    Forum Posts

    91292

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 4

    User Lists: 6

    #12  Edited By spacetrucking

    Wasn't Traya's academy built after the first game ? I was under the impression that these sith were different from the ones we fight in KOTOR 1. You certainly bring up an interesting point.

    It certainly was a shame that so much potential content got cut out of the game due to Lucas Art's deadline. But personally, I still enjoy Exile's journey more than Revan's trials in KOTOR 1. Somehow, while KOTOR 1 was complete and without any plot holes - the story always felt like a cliche to me. Its a good video game story but after you've read a few Star Wars novels, you start to see a pattern. The Exile,on the other hand, is an odd character and had a rather unique story. Thats the one thing I enjoyed the most about the game. Its unpredictability and all the shady characters. KOTOR 2's storyline is flawed, I'll be the first to admit that but I still find it a more original and enjoyable tale than the first game.

    BTW a KOTOR MMO could be fun. Its handled by Bioware so my expectations are high.

    Avatar image for biggerbomb
    BiggerBomb

    7011

    Forum Posts

    -1

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 0

    User Lists: 4

    #13  Edited By BiggerBomb

    True, I have a lot of respect and admiration for Bioware. If anyone could pull this off it is them, but I still would rather see a true sequel than a spiritual successor in the form of an MMO.

    Avatar image for kloreep
    Kloreep

    147

    Forum Posts

    293

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 0

    User Lists: 0

    #14  Edited By Kloreep

    I agree Killjoy that there was something more unconventional about KOTOR2, and I appreciated it for that. KOTOR1 was ultimately a very straightforward plot with a single big kink thrown in. Remove that one twist, and what's there to really distinguish it? I liked it a lot and it was entirely solid, but KOTOR2's story held a lot more appeal to me. It took the Mandalorian Wars and gave us a whole new look into that past, as well as all the nasty fallout ongoing. More importantly, it had some nicely ambiguous characters. It had no grand twist, no; IMO, the thousand little interpretations and alternate perspectives were far better than any one twist.

    I also thought Obsidian did a great job of handing the player a character that was malleable without the old amnesia excuse. They gave your character a real past, but let you decide how the Exile actually felt about it.

    I also agree with Killjoy that the Exile's story didn't feel all that cut-down. (As long as you're willing to accept the major cop-out, ultimately used for both Revan and the Exile, of "there's something beyond known space! Oh no!") Exile befriends Kreia, Exile travels with Kreia, Exile is betrayed, Exile hunts down and confronts. Certainly there's more to the story than that, but the particular part of the Exile's journey that begins on Peragus does feel to me pretty fulfilled at the end of the game: the Exile knows why the Sith were hunting her, why Kreia sought her out, etc. Everything that led to the start of the game is largely explained, many questions are actually answered; it's just that they left a huge gaping door open for another sequel. (Of course, it is also true that only the Exile has a complete journey; every other character goes abruptly dark like someone tripped over a plug or something.)

    I have to disagree that KOTOR2 seemed inconsistent, BiggerBomb. A lot left unexplained, yes, but I couldn't find that many outright holes.

    Kreia's nature has always been to stick to the shadows, and on top of that, we know she remained a part of the order long enough to indeed train Revan. (I believe it's pretty clear she trained Revan when they were both still Jedi, as she cites the fact that she trained Revan as one of the things that made her fellow Jedi cast her out.) This means . Assuming she wasn't already going to the Sith, she presumably had some time wandering the galaxy - much like the Exile, really - before founding a new Sith stronghold with the other two.

    As for why they weren't known in KOTOR2... Nihilus was quite literally made at Malachor. I don't know how much time passed between Malachor/the end of the Mandalorian Wars (the two events are much the same, right?) and the start of KOTOR2, but I have the impression that Revan turned against the Republic very quickly after Malachor. (After all, if supposedly still on the Republic's side, what justification would Revan have for holding on to the fleet and onto ) This means that the Sith-Republic conflict is the only time gap between Malachor and KOTOR1. While I suppose that may be sizeable, I find it entirely possible that Nihilus simply wasn't strong enough to draw much attention. We have no indication of him consuming an entire planet before Mirakula, which probably happened after KOTOR1. In all the death, who's going to notice a few snacks for Nihilus here and there? Furthermore, why would he have teamed up with the Sith under Revan or Malak's command, when that would simply have meant revealing himself to someone who has shown a desire to control everything? Far better to stay under the radar and come up for food every now and then.

    Ultimately, Nihilus is simply good at remaining stealthy. As someone who doesn't wish to conquer, and who leaves few survivors, it would be pretty easy for him to go unknown, even if his handiwork is visibile. Indeed, Kreia had to offer him up a Jedi-inhabited planet just to draw him out into the open. I think the difference between the Sith of 1 and of 2 was a pretty explicit theme: whereas Revan and Malak were conquerors, the three Sith of KOTOR2 are all underground to some extent, because they simply don't care about conquest as much as fighting the Jedi.

    As for Sion's non-presence, I'm not entirely sure, but I got the sense that he was directly trained by Kreia and was her Sith apprentice, which means he actually hasn't been around as an independent agent for that long. He's only been his own Sith since leaving Kreia, - again, not actually that long a time, quite possibly even shorter a time than the gap between KOTOR1 and 2. After all, Kreia has to have time to be kicked out of the Jedi order, become a Sith, build Trayus and train Sion, and then be betrayed and wander some more.

    As for Revan's story being completely unresolved, this is quite true. I personally liked the story of the Exile enough to forgive Obsidian that it had only passing importance for the story of Revan. It is still a story about the world Revan helped create... it is entirely because of Revan (and Malak too I suppose) that KOTOR2 opens with the Exile is where she is, and the Republic where it is.

    Avatar image for friedmattato1
    FriedMattato1

    19

    Forum Posts

    0

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 10

    User Lists: 0

    #15  Edited By FriedMattato1

    KOTOR I was indeed a great story. The characters felt genuine, the story was interesting, and the big twist was honestly surprising.

    KOTOR II had a handicap because of this very fact. Your expectations will always play into how well you recieve something. That said, I felt KOTOR II did characterization much better than the first entry managed to. Talking to your party members, you could feel some real emotions going on. Mira and Atton both had ugly pasts and HK-47 was again hilariously pitch-black. The Handmaiden and the Miraluke both developed into some compicated love triangles with your character as well.

    What I remember most from KOTOR II, however, was Kreia. She has become one of my favorite Star Wars characters of all time. It's a fresh change of pace to have a mentor who isn't one-sided. She was a character who is able to look at both the Sith and the Jedi and observe the deepest flaws of each one. She isn't even fond of the Force itself, wishing there were some way to eradicate its necessity. There was also the mother role she develops over time with you. I had a few heartstings pulled during some of the later conversations especially. She's constantly guiding you, making learn from your mistakes, and showing you all sides of life. The mother role I feel best came in when the Jedi Masters attempt to seal you again, but she angrily kills them just in time, protecting her faux child.

    I also loved her view on morality, particularly when you did overly nice things. Her Objectivist ideals were so clearly presented: "In taking these tasks upon yourself, you weaken those you seek to aid. You steal their struggles away from themselves; you cheapen it. And without hardships, they will simply become all the weaker for it the next time they must face a trial."

    Avatar image for kloreep
    Kloreep

    147

    Forum Posts

    293

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 0

    User Lists: 0

    #16  Edited By Kloreep

    Kreia was a great character. In some ways, the entire game hinges upon her; I'm not surprised when I see someone who didn't like her also saying they didn't like the game.

    She was definitely a great mentor figure - accessible to any alignment, but ready to challenge the ideas of either. I don't often get attached to video game characters, but I was honestly invested in her - so much so that I felt honestly betrayed later on. I expected her to turn against me, but I had somehow convinced myself she would stab me in the front...

    Avatar image for sickvisionz
    sickVisionz

    1307

    Forum Posts

    39

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 1

    User Lists: 4

    #17  Edited By sickVisionz
    @Kloreep said:
    " Kreia was a great character. In some ways, the entire game hinges upon her; I'm not surprised when I see someone who didn't like her also saying they didn't like the game.She was definitely a great mentor figure - accessible to any alignment, but ready to challenge the ideas of either. I don't often get attached to video game characters, but I was honestly invested in her - so much so that I felt honestly betrayed later on. I expected her to turn against me, but I had somehow convinced myself she would stab me in the front... "
    That's how I felt about it.  I thought she was an amazing character.  I loved how she would challenge your views no matter what you did.  The only thing she reacted to positively was a strong resolve behind your actions.
     
    The story to the game felt very personal to me, and I can't think of any other game that can pull that off.  Maybe Sands of Time, but I didn't really care about the story until the very end of the game.  Movies and books can do it with ease, but most games always shoot for super epic.  I think Obsidian made a conscious choice to tell a personal story rather than try to out-BioWare BioWare, which would have been a major fail.
     
    When people say the story or writing of KOTOR2 is bad, I think they are ignoring the entire game and all of it's characters.  They're only focusing on the last 2 minutes of the game and ignoring the 20 hours of content before that.  I can understand saying KOTOR1 is better because if you wanted something super epic, KOTOR2 went out of it's way to not be that, but I can't understand saying that it's poorly written.
    Avatar image for arbitrarywater
    ArbitraryWater

    16104

    Forum Posts

    5585

    Wiki Points

    0

    Followers

    Reviews: 8

    User Lists: 66

    #18  Edited By ArbitraryWater

    With the extraordinary leaps of logic by the end of the game, along with the important plot points being relegated to a single lines of dialogue that could be easily missed, I was completely in the dark by the end of the game. Kreia is evil now? What? The entire story just felt like a bad expanded universe novel, and the immense amount of cut content didn't help either. Sure, KotOR 1's plot is kind of cliche and popcorn, but I still stand by the general consensus that it's a better game in both story and gameplay.
     
     But then again, I haven't bothered to play either game for a few years now, so don't eat me alive.

    This edit will also create new pages on Giant Bomb for:

    Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

    Comment and Save

    Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Giant Bomb users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.