@ccampb89 said:

Another person bitching about game mechanics? Jesus, I swear if all the whiners on the internet grouped together we would have the best fucking video game on the planet because they all know whats best!!!

A phrase that programmers never want to hear.

"This feature should be easy to implement. Why is it taking so long?"

@Klei said:

We're all entitled to our opinions, and TC, I strongly disagree. It's perfectly fine that way. Group Quests are not terrible ; they're just not to your selfish liking.

Right of course, cause your opinion is right and my opinion is wrong. Naturally.

@DexterKid said:

@Klei said:

We're all entitled to our opinions, and TC, I strongly disagree. It's perfectly fine that way. Group Quests are not terrible ; they're just not to your selfish liking.

Right of course, cause your opinion is right and my opinion is wrong. Naturally.

He didn't say you were wrong and he was right. He said he didn't agree with you. He thinks you are being selfish.

Someone sounds like a whiney, spoiled brat of an attention whore. "Mommy! It's not fair! I made a choice but I didn't win! I should always win! Go talk to his mom so that he can't ever win again!"

I bet you're the kid that when you played tag cried that it wasn't fair that you lost, because everything should be about you, always and forever. And yes, I'm putting words in your mouth and making assumptions about you as a human being because as far as I can tell you're selfish and refuse to listen to any opinion other than your own. If the rest of the world doesn't bow down to your opinion and the way you want things to be, then throw a temper tantrum.

I bet the fact that I have a consular that has only EVER done questing with another person, not just group quests, would blow your fucking mind. How could someone stand to not be the center of the universe? That's just crazy, right? CRAAAAZY I say! As I wave my hands about in the air wildly.

What I'm really trying to say is.. get over yourself. You're not that important.

@DexterKid: But Bioware did include something just for you. Its your personal Class story. Your story is for you. That is why all of the areas for your story are instanced off. When you are out and about in the world, you are just another Jedi/Sith or whatever class you are. You are not some big hotshot that is amazing at everything out in the world. You are a smaller cog on the grand machine of the Empire/Republic. Thats by design. Maybe then the game is not for you?

@DexterKid I understand your point, but i dont understand the premise. In a football game you can have a career mode, but that doesnt mean your dude takes on the whole other team alone. That would be grossly unrealistic. In SWTOR you are a hero/villain of major proportions, but you aren't a god. Majority of the game is soloable. They have designed it to be a pocket experience just for you. Then your character is faced with sith's and armies to big for you to face alone. i suppose they could take the "group" title off these quests and your character could roleplay dieing to unassailable odds a lot. The group content is situations your character CANT do alone, at least not successfully. It does suck sometimes when other people choose different outcomes than you, but the sheer scope of money required to make a "perfect" dialog system would ludicrous. I think you just dont enoy a game made for play with other people. That's totally ok. I barely play with anyone else either. But, assuming they should make the game play differently because you alone would like it to be so isnt very rational. I know youve said that you paid for the game, so you think you should get a say, but all of these systems were announced and broadcast over the internet long before the game came out. It cant be everything for everyone at all times.

If two people disagree then they should have the option of dueling.

It would look goofy as shit while the NPC's watch but it would be way more fun than a dice roll.

@DexterKid said:

Yeh it's really overly entitled of me to want a game that I'm paying for to actually make me feel like the hero of the story. I also like to pay prostitutes so I can watch them blow some other guy in front of me.

You're the only person I've heard of with this problem. And I'll be frank for a second: wanting your character to be the only hero in a multiplayer adventure is a little selfish (scratch that: very selfish). To say that I find your opinion on this matter offensive--well, that would be an understatement. Yes, you're paying for the game. Yes, you should see the content. And no, since you apparently don't care how other players' characters act and think in this multiplayer experience, you don't actually need them for these group quests. Come back when you're a higher level, and that should suffice most group content from level 1 - 40. Either that, or when it prompts you to join a group discussion: decline. Then, after everyone else is gone, have that discussion by yourself. Sure, that seems like a solitary, boring thing to do. But apparently that's what you're looking for.

Second, on the dungeon finder tool (or lack thereof): it's a community-destroying device. That's why it's not in the game. Most MMORPG players have recognized how that dungeon finder destroyed all sense of server community in World of Warcraft--and so they've requested that it not be implemented in new MMORPGs. Rift launched without one. Not because it wasn't technically feasible, but because it would only hurt their community. SWTOR--like Rift--is following the same footsteps. Will Bioware add it eventually? Well, maybe. Depends how the votes balance out between wanting the community-destroying tool, or not. All this is to say that the dungeon finder was not omitted due to laziness, or as part of some design oversight, or even planned as post-release content; rather, it was omitted purposefully due to community request prior to launch.

Figure I'd chime in for a second with my own opinion rather than attacking yours: I really like the group content. I'd go so far as to say that it's my favourite part of this game. It's a rather ingenious system that transforms Bioware's specifically-singleplayer approach to storytelling and turns it into both a compelling gameplay mechanic and an interesting narrative twist. I mean, a rugged-ass bounty hunter could step in and murder someone whom you wanted to set free. It's a shame, but it does some really interesting things for your narrative adventure. After all, feeling locked into a particular moral direction after countless hours of gameplay is a bit of a flaw with any moral choice game. This morality-locking leaves you with a constant stream of goodie-two shoes comments from your characters mouth, and nothing but gratitude from NPCs. Having that multiplayer wrench thrown into the mix--with other voices of power who have just as much sway as you--varies things up immensely.

@FateOfNever said:

Someone sounds like a whiney, spoiled brat of an attention whore. "Mommy! It's not fair! I made a choice but I didn't win! I should always win! Go talk to his mom so that he can't ever win again!"

I bet you're the kid that when you played tag cried that it wasn't fair that you lost, because everything should be about you, always and forever. And yes, I'm putting words in your mouth and making assumptions about you as a human being because as far as I can tell you're selfish and refuse to listen to any opinion other than your own. If the rest of the world doesn't bow down to your opinion and the way you want things to be, then throw a temper tantrum.

I bet the fact that I have a consular that has only EVER done questing with another person, not just group quests, would blow your fucking mind. How could someone stand to not be the center of the universe? That's just crazy, right? CRAAAAZY I say! As I wave my hands about in the air wildly.

What I'm really trying to say is.. get over yourself. You're not that important.

No rather someone else sounds like an imbecile who can't comprehend basic English. This is a fucking video game we are talking about on this video game website. No I don't expect everything to go my way in life and in fact most things don't. Which is why when I pay to play a video game I do want to be the centre of attention and the hero of the world; that's the whole fucking point of the thing, to be an escapist fantasy. But apparently I missed the press release declaring that SWTOR is going to be a perfectly realistic depiction of life, where you have to make compromises and live with the bullshit outside your control.

Please get the fuck out of here with that nonsense. And next time actually read what the thread is about before talking out of your arse.

@The_tato said:

@DexterKid I understand your point, but i dont understand the premise. In a football game you can have a career mode, but that doesnt mean your dude takes on the whole other team alone. That would be grossly unrealistic. In SWTOR you are a hero/villain of major proportions, but you aren't a god. Majority of the game is soloable. They have designed it to be a pocket experience just for you. Then your character is faced with sith's and armies to big for you to face alone. i suppose they could take the "group" title off these quests and your character could roleplay dieing to unassailable odds a lot. The group content is situations your character CANT do alone, at least not successfully. It does suck sometimes when other people choose different outcomes than you, but the sheer scope of money required to make a "perfect" dialog system would ludicrous. I think you just dont enoy a game made for play with other people. That's totally ok. I barely play with anyone else either. But, assuming they should make the game play differently because you alone would like it to be so isnt very rational. I know youve said that you paid for the game, so you think you should get a say, but all of these systems were announced and broadcast over the internet long before the game came out. It cant be everything for everyone at all times.

Or they could just do it like every other game ever, and have some NPC stand there next to me while I kill everything and then in the cutscenes pretend that I had a lot of help with me. How about that?

When Shepard saves the galaxy with just two incompetent NPCs at her side, that's all perfectly fine, but in this game it should be somehow different?

And no friend, I do enjoy games made to play with other people. I have played 7 years of WoW and have done plenty and plenty of group content. Except WoW isn't about getting invested in your character's story or choosing dialogue in cutscenes and so on. But this game is. In fact it's the only thing that sets this game apart, and if I'm having that story immersion ruined for me by these quests, then the game has failed in what it's trying to achieve. And it doesn't need a 'perfect' dialogue system to solve this issue, as I explained before it would have only taken minor tweaks on the existing formula to make the group quests more bearable.

And to those people calling me selfish. Yes it is very selfish of me to want the option to play the content solo, even though the content was clearly written for solo play (which explains why the dice roll had to be shoe-horned in there and why the dialogue responses never acknowledge the other party members present); I know this selfish wish of mine is taking away from everyone else's enjoyment of the game, so I'm really sorry for offending you all.

@DexterKid said:

@FateOfNever said:

Someone sounds like a whiney, spoiled brat of an attention whore. "Mommy! It's not fair! I made a choice but I didn't win! I should always win! Go talk to his mom so that he can't ever win again!"

I bet you're the kid that when you played tag cried that it wasn't fair that you lost, because everything should be about you, always and forever. And yes, I'm putting words in your mouth and making assumptions about you as a human being because as far as I can tell you're selfish and refuse to listen to any opinion other than your own. If the rest of the world doesn't bow down to your opinion and the way you want things to be, then throw a temper tantrum.

I bet the fact that I have a consular that has only EVER done questing with another person, not just group quests, would blow your fucking mind. How could someone stand to not be the center of the universe? That's just crazy, right? CRAAAAZY I say! As I wave my hands about in the air wildly.

What I'm really trying to say is.. get over yourself. You're not that important.

No rather someone else sounds like an imbecile who can't comprehend basic English. This is a fucking video game we are talking about on this video game website. No I don't expect everything to go my way in life and in fact most things don't. Which is why when I pay to play a video game I do want to be the centre of attention and the hero of the world; that's the whole fucking point of the thing, to be an escapist fantasy. But apparently I missed the press release declaring that SWTOR is going to be a perfectly realistic depiction of life, where you have to make compromises and live with the bullshit outside your control.

Please get the fuck out of here with that nonsense. And next time actually read what the thread is about before talking out of your arse.

Considering almost everyone else has already told you why you're wrong and being not only unrealistic but straight up ridiculous as well and you've only responded by (let's say it as you put it) talking out of your ass, I'm not sure I see a reason to even remotely try and hold a civilized conversation with you. The fact that just about everyone (I haven't read the whole thread, just enough of it to know that it's the majority) has been telling you that you're acting like a selfish, spoiled brat about this and you keep screaming louder and louder that you're right should really be an indication to you that.. no, you're not right. Even as an opinion, you're wrong, that's how not right you are on the matter.

No one is FORCING you to make a compromise in TOR. The only person putting you into that situation is yourself. You know all of those Heroic 2+ quests? You can do those yourself. Heroic 4+ quests? They're not worth it, don't even do them, they suck. Flashpoints? Either get a friend (I'm not sure that you would have any in a video game though since unless it's all about you the game is doing it wrong) or don't do them. The story in them isn't that vital, and it's also not YOUR story, it's the story of the universe there, so, you don't need to see it to feel like the center of the universe.

I do wonder if the knowledge that there are other players out there that are the same class that you are and are doing the exact same quest you're doing, but making DIFFERENT choices ruins it for you that you're the center of the universe in your story. You're not a special snow flake in your story, because someone else out there is also doing your story, their way, not your way. Let that freak you out for a moment. It's freaky, isn't it. Your story isn't special or unique to yourself. Making you always not the center of the universe by way of someone else already having done your story before you. They're just pretending like there are still problems in the universe that only your class can solve because they feel bad for you that you got to the story so late that the actual center of the universe finished it already.

The fact that you can't hear the sound of how selfish you're being, even after just about everyone has told you as such leads me to believe that you just might be trolling though. Which is fine, because I still find it hilarious watching how angry you're getting at everyone else for trying to tell you how poorly you're behaving, even if that anger is fake.

@DexterKid said:

And to those people calling me selfish. Yes it is very selfish of me to want the option to play the content solo, even though the content was clearly written for solo play (which explains why the dice roll had to be shoe-horned in there and why the dialogue responses never acknowledge the other party members present); I know this selfish wish of mine is taking away from everyone else's enjoyment of the game, so I'm really sorry for offending you all.

Actually, if you had done any real amount of group questing, you would know that NPCs do actually change their dialogue slightly if you're in a group by acknowledging that a group of people have shown up, not just one person. That or the dialogue is fucked up from the get go when an NPC tells me and my friend "wow, I didn't expect one jedi knight to show up let alone a whole group of you." and is just talking about my companion, but then, it still has the same effect as acknowledging there being more people there.

The content was also not clearly designed for solo play. YOU want it to be designed for solo play, that doesn't mean that's what it WAS designed for. You know HOW I know it wasn't designed for solo play? Because the enemies weren't designed in such a way where you could kill them all by yourself. You know how ELSE I know it wasn't? Because they actually took time and effort to come up with a system to handle multiple people in a party instead of just shrugging indifferently and going "eh, it's not that important, right, everyone can just have their own cut scenes and whatever it's all the same, right?" You know how ELSE I know? There are flash points where different choices can lead to different boss fights, meaning that they consciously made a decision that "when in a group, we need everyone to share the same dialogue results even if they pick different things." It wouldn't help if on the Black Talon if you kill the ship's commander and go fight a droid but your non-existent party member because you should be the center of the universe picked to spare the commander and had to go fight the squad of republic troops. You call it shoe-horned in because you don't like it. The fact that it is in there AND has an entire point system revolving around it AND rewards for it says otherwise.

@DexterKid said:

The point is that this is meant to be my story and I'm supposed to be invested in my character like I am in a Mass Effect or Dragon Age; that's the entire selling point of this game that I've paid 40 quid to buy and 9 quid a month to play. And your solution is 'well...don't do those quest'?

You are correct about it being your story for your character's story quests. Flashpoints are the things that are happening in the periphery for all characters. So, it's your groups story. While I agree that the story stuff for groups isn't as fleshed out, BW has specifically stated that they want story heavy flashpoints and flashpoints that are mainly combat.

The Heroic missions are daily, and I think that they rightly left those short on story. Why? Could you imagine having to watch the Heroic daily cutscenes every day? They would get old really quick. This way, you just do some quick stuff with a group and get a cool reward. If you don't like that, you are playing the wrong game.

You have 8 characters worth of unique story for EACH and EVERY character. I suggest you play this game as BW intended it to be played. If it isn't your cup of Earl Grey, move on. There are a ton of games out there, Duder.

@FateOfNever: I don't give a shit if the entire planet tells me my opinion is wrong, because I know an opinion can't be wrong by definition. So yeh I have a right to be angry, when an idiot tells me that my opinion is wrong and that I'm being selfish just because he doesn't agree with me. Come back to me when you understand what an opinion is. Also it's very fucking rich for you to talk about civilised converstions when you started your first post by calling me a 'whiney, spoilt brat of an attention whore'; no buddy it doesn't work like that.

And yes the content is designed for solo play. There is nothing about the flashpoints, absolutely nothing, that makes them specifically suited for group play. The enemies are hard? Give me a break, that's not precise design, it's a difficulty slider. And the NPC saying 'Yes my lords' to acknowledge a group of people isn't the same thing as the player responses acknowledging the other party members and their choices, so don't give me that nonsense either. The dice roll was shoe-horned in there because they wrote one set of responses for everyone, and the dice roll just decides who gets to have the spotlight, that's it. They didn't make any special effort to write the stories in flashpoints for a group and never intended to. It could just as well be a solo player and his/her NPC companion and everything would still function as is, only I wouldn't have to share my cutscenes with others. Oh yes of course, that's really fucking selfish of me, cause god knows that me getting to do that stuff solo would really hurt every other player on the server!!

@project343: No where the hell did I say that? I just don't want to share any decisive story moments with other people. Especially not the way it is handled by this game.

Like I said before, I've been doing dungeons and raids in WoW for 7 years, I've been in plenty of guilds and have done all kinds of group content. But rolling for loot and rolling for cutscenes are two different things. I play games for the story, the combat and loot are only a means to get me there. So the first time I run into that situation where someone jumps in front and makes the decision for me, all that immersion and investment in the character goes out the window in an instance. Other things also break that immersion too (like crappy kill and fetch quests with lame dialogue, which feels out of place for my character's narrative arch), but the worst offender for me is this group stuff.

@DexterKid said:

@FateOfNever: I don't give a shit if the entire planet tells me my opinion is wrong, because I know an opinion can't be wrong by definition. So yeh I have a right to be angry, when an idiot tells me that my opinion is wrong and that I'm being selfish just because he doesn't agree with me. Come back to me when you understand what an opinion is. Also it's very fucking rich for you to talk about civilised converstions when you started your first post by calling me a 'whiney, spoilt brat of an attention whore'; no buddy it doesn't work like that.

And yes the content is designed for solo play. There is nothing about the flashpoints, absolutely nothing, that makes them specifically suited for group play. The enemies are hard? Give me a break, that's not precise design, it's a difficulty slider. And the NPC saying 'Yes my lords' to acknowledge a group of people isn't the same thing as the player responses acknowledging the other party members and their choices, so don't give me that nonsense either. The dice roll was shoe-horned in there because they wrote one set of responses for everyone, and the dice roll just decides who gets to have the spotlight, that's it. They didn't make any special effort to write the stories in flashpoints for a group and never intended to. It could just as well be a solo player and his/her NPC companion and everything would still function as is, only I wouldn't have to share my cutscenes with others. Oh yes of course, that's really fucking selfish of me, cause god knows that me getting to do that stuff solo would really hurt every other player on the server!!

See, this is what I mean.

Also, you should work on your reading comprehension (as you have told so many other people to do.) I never said I was going to have civilized conversation with you, and that was exactly why my first post wasn't any attempt at it. Try to learn to understand the English language, will you? (Any of this sound familiar? They're your attempts at coming up with insulting arguments when you don't have anything better to say.) If you could read and understand English you may have even understood my comment about your opinion being wrong. But I digress, why should I expect anything better out of someone who's only way to defend their opinion is to scream louder and tell everyone else that they're wrong? (Which I'm not even talking about your opinion here, I'm talking about things like people explaining something to you and you going "but that's wrong" - like content being designed for groups, or that you can go back later, by yourself and get the exact same experience out of it.)

Also, if you don't care about the better loot you get from flashpoints (as clearly that's not the issue here since you only ever complain about the story part) just go back once you're over leveled. Problem solved. Done and done. You get to see the content solo, by yourself, and don't have to share anything at all with anyone else in this multiplayer game, and no one has to put up with someone like you. It's a win-win situation. I don't see the problem.

@FateOfNever said:

@DexterKid said:

@FateOfNever: I don't give a shit if the entire planet tells me my opinion is wrong, because I know an opinion can't be wrong by definition. So yeh I have a right to be angry, when an idiot tells me that my opinion is wrong and that I'm being selfish just because he doesn't agree with me. Come back to me when you understand what an opinion is. Also it's very fucking rich for you to talk about civilised converstions when you started your first post by calling me a 'whiney, spoilt brat of an attention whore'; no buddy it doesn't work like that.

And yes the content is designed for solo play. There is nothing about the flashpoints, absolutely nothing, that makes them specifically suited for group play. The enemies are hard? Give me a break, that's not precise design, it's a difficulty slider. And the NPC saying 'Yes my lords' to acknowledge a group of people isn't the same thing as the player responses acknowledging the other party members and their choices, so don't give me that nonsense either. The dice roll was shoe-horned in there because they wrote one set of responses for everyone, and the dice roll just decides who gets to have the spotlight, that's it. They didn't make any special effort to write the stories in flashpoints for a group and never intended to. It could just as well be a solo player and his/her NPC companion and everything would still function as is, only I wouldn't have to share my cutscenes with others. Oh yes of course, that's really fucking selfish of me, cause god knows that me getting to do that stuff solo would really hurt every other player on the server!!

See, this is what I mean.

Also, you should work on your reading comprehension (as you have told so many other people to do.) I never said I was going to have civilized conversation with you, and that was exactly why my first post wasn't any attempt at it. Try to learn to understand the English language, will you? (Any of this sound familiar, they're your attempts at coming up with insulting arguments when you don't have anything better to say.) If you could read and understand English you may have even understood my comment about your opinion being wrong. But I digress, why should I expect anything better out of someone who's only way to defend their opinion is to scream louder and tell everyone else that they're wrong?

Also, if you don't care about the better loot you get from flashpoints (as clearly that's not the issue here since you only ever complain about the story part) just go back once you're over leveled. Problem solved. Done and done. You get to see the content solo, by yourself, and don't have to share anything at all with anyone else in this multiplayer game, and no one has to put up with someone like you. It's a win-win situation. I don't see the problem.

''Even as an opinion, you're wrong'' Not too many ways to miscomprehend that, bud. But sure, you go ahead and backtrack now.

Also point me to the spot when I said to anyone that their opinion is wrong? You can't, cause I know better than that. No one is screaming here, that's just in your own head if I had to guess.

@DexterKid said:

@FateOfNever said:

@DexterKid said:

@FateOfNever: I don't give a shit if the entire planet tells me my opinion is wrong, because I know an opinion can't be wrong by definition. So yeh I have a right to be angry, when an idiot tells me that my opinion is wrong and that I'm being selfish just because he doesn't agree with me. Come back to me when you understand what an opinion is. Also it's very fucking rich for you to talk about civilised converstions when you started your first post by calling me a 'whiney, spoilt brat of an attention whore'; no buddy it doesn't work like that.

And yes the content is designed for solo play. There is nothing about the flashpoints, absolutely nothing, that makes them specifically suited for group play. The enemies are hard? Give me a break, that's not precise design, it's a difficulty slider. And the NPC saying 'Yes my lords' to acknowledge a group of people isn't the same thing as the player responses acknowledging the other party members and their choices, so don't give me that nonsense either. The dice roll was shoe-horned in there because they wrote one set of responses for everyone, and the dice roll just decides who gets to have the spotlight, that's it. They didn't make any special effort to write the stories in flashpoints for a group and never intended to. It could just as well be a solo player and his/her NPC companion and everything would still function as is, only I wouldn't have to share my cutscenes with others. Oh yes of course, that's really fucking selfish of me, cause god knows that me getting to do that stuff solo would really hurt every other player on the server!!

See, this is what I mean.

Also, you should work on your reading comprehension (as you have told so many other people to do.) I never said I was going to have civilized conversation with you, and that was exactly why my first post wasn't any attempt at it. Try to learn to understand the English language, will you? (Any of this sound familiar, they're your attempts at coming up with insulting arguments when you don't have anything better to say.) If you could read and understand English you may have even understood my comment about your opinion being wrong. But I digress, why should I expect anything better out of someone who's only way to defend their opinion is to scream louder and tell everyone else that they're wrong?

Also, if you don't care about the better loot you get from flashpoints (as clearly that's not the issue here since you only ever complain about the story part) just go back once you're over leveled. Problem solved. Done and done. You get to see the content solo, by yourself, and don't have to share anything at all with anyone else in this multiplayer game, and no one has to put up with someone like you. It's a win-win situation. I don't see the problem.

''Even as an opinion, you're wrong'' Not too many ways to miscomprehend that, bud. But sure, you go ahead and backtrack now.

Also point me to the spot when I said to anyone that their opinion is wrong? You can't, cause I know better than that. No one is screaming here, that's just in your own head if I had to guess.

I said "Even as an opinion, you're wrong, that's how not right you are on the matter." Which is using to English language to make a joke. Which isn't backtracking, it's all there, written on the internet. If you can't pick up on a joke that's your fault for being unable to read and understand what was written.

I also never said you said anyone's opinion was wrong. Again, you're failing to understand the words I'm putting down. I said that you said people were wrong, not that their opinions were wrong. I probably could scour through the four pages and stuff and find something where you more or less imply that your opinion is the only one that matters and any other opinion is wrong, in fact, I'm sure there's something like that on the first page, but I won't waste my time.

The fact that you won't even try to counter the arguments I'm making, of like say, going and doing the content by yourself once you're above level, tells me that you don't have an answer for it. You know that that is a valid answer to your problem but don't want to admit it.

The yelling, from you, would be things like "Oh yes of course, that's really fucking selfish of me, cause god knows that me getting to do stuff solo would really hurt every other player on the server!!" (Two exclamation marks, no less, your own writing there, not mine.) That's the equivalent of yelling on the internet without using capslock.

Where you are wrong, you see, is that group content was built into this game, not shoe-horned. You may believe it was shoe-horned in because you don't enjoy the way it was done, THAT is an opinion. You can not like the way it's implemented, that's an opinion. Drawing a fact from your opinion, however, does not make the fact (that the content was shoe-horned in) an opinion, because you are still stating it as a fact and are disregarding evidence that says otherwise.

There are plenty of other people that actually like the way they handled the group content in this game. It is their opinion that it is done in an interesting and enjoyable way. And they then choose to indulge in that experience. You have no right to want to take that away from them, your opinion is no more valid than theirs is (yours may be more selfish, mind you, but that's different.) And if more people's opinion is that the system is enjoyable as is, and if the game developers have the opinion that this is the way they want the system to be, then you have two options - get over it or move on. Getting over it can to stop being selfish and viewing this game purely as a single player experience (because it's not, it's also not Mass Effect or Dragon Age or anything else, it is an experience unique unto itself, and therefore trying to compare it to things that are not the same as it doesn't work very well) or it can be accepting the work around to go back once you have outleveled the group content and can experience it all by yourself with your companion. Moving on would be going back to World of Warcraft, where you seem to act like you would rather be. I guess you could also just continue to complain about it and keep doing it and feeling miserable about it because you would rather be miserable than content or happy, but, that sounds like a pretty crappy choice.

@FateOfNever: ''I said that you said people were wrong, not that their opinions were wrong.'' ...hmm yeh, I don't even know what on earth you are talking about anymore matey; and honestly I can't be bothered to read the rest of that.

I'm bored with this thread, there wasn't any decent discussion happening anyway. Peace out.

@DexterKid said:

@FateOfNever: ''I said that you said people were wrong, not that their opinions were wrong.'' ...hmm yeh, I don't even know what on earth you are talking about anymore matey; and honestly I can't be bothered to read the rest of that.

I'm bored with this thread, there wasn't any decent discussion happening anyway. Peace out.

So, you're a troll, is what you're saying? All right. Thanks for the heads up.

@FateOfNever: Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. You can sleep easy now.

@DexterKid said:

@FateOfNever: Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. You can sleep easy now.

I thought you were leaving.

@DexterKid OK, so maybe everyone took you wildly out of context. Perhaps that might have something to do with the title you chose for the thread. As you've said everyone has their own opinion, and even though many people in this thread have agreed that the mechanic they use could be better, people feel an innate desire to protect the game they are enjoying when someone else makes definitive negative statements about said game. You don't like the systems in place. That's fair. You aren't willing to accept the game they gave you because you want it to be better, especially when you spent money on it, also fair. But, this doesn't inherently make the group quests terrible. It just means you personally don't enjoy them. I don't know you, i cant speak to your value as a gamer or human being, and i'm not going to drag you all over the thread for having a differing opinion than me. In the future, if you want a better caliber of discussion on a topic that really means something to you, perhaps approach it in less an argumentative rage-fest type way. A lot of people even among my friends and in general have expressed a similar view on how muddy the story arcs of group quests can feel. We don't feel let down by the game necessarily, but we'd like to see it modified and improved over the lifetime of the game. You do feel let down, and that sucks. Sorry man.

Their is no way someone who raided seriously for 7 years in WoW cannot handle a group quest decision, something is fishy here..

@The_tato said:

@DexterKid OK, so maybe everyone took you wildly out of context. Perhaps that might have something to do with the title you chose for the thread. As you've said everyone has their own opinion, and even though many people in this thread have agreed that the mechanic they use could be better, people feel an innate desire to protect the game they are enjoying when someone else makes definitive negative statements about said game. You don't like the systems in place. That's fair. You aren't willing to accept the game they gave you because you want it to be better, especially when you spent money on it, also fair. But, this doesn't inherently make the group quests terrible. It just means you personally don't enjoy them. I don't know you, i cant speak to your value as a gamer or human being, and i'm not going to drag you all over the thread for having a differing opinion than me. In the future, if you want a better caliber of discussion on a topic that really means something to you, perhaps approach it in less an argumentative rage-fest type way. A lot of people even among my friends and in general have expressed a similar view on how muddy the story arcs of group quests can feel. We don't feel let down by the game necessarily, but we'd like to see it modified and improved over the lifetime of the game. You do feel let down, and that sucks. Sorry man.

Sure I'll give this another go, since you bothered to make a thoughtful response. Again this comes back to my argument of what is an opinion. To me, saying ''The group quests in this game are terrible'' is clearly just an opinion. It goes without saying as far as I'm concerned. I could end every statement I make with 'IMO' or whatever, but that just gets tedious after a while so I just assume that people can tell what is an opinion and what is not. Because clearly you cannot scientifically or mathematically prove the terribleness of said quests as being fact. Maybe I shouldn't take this shit for granted since opinions are such a constant source of confusion for so many forum users.

As far as rage-fest goes, I honestly don't know what to say to that. By forum standards, I wouldn't class anything I wrote in that post as rage. But hey, maybe the GB community are just much more delicate than what I'm used to.

Sounds like someone needs a hug. Or a priority check.

I find the idea of dynamic character interaction in those group scenes rather intriguing. Either based upon your innate alignment somehow, or the specific choice you selected otherwise. I know it would be a lot of work and money to do it, but having the other characters in a group even just nod approval or facepalm or something could definitely make the personal user experience feel more organic. when huge swing decisions are in play maybe having your characters curse each others names or glare evilly or scream in rage over the idiocy of the companions in their party. canned lines non interactive, but giving your character the spotlight for his feelings or thoughts on the topic at hand.

I agree that the big sweeping moments like in flashpoints and heroic quests shouldn't feel just like a single player quest but with other dudes rolling for the decision making rights. Maybe there is some merit in the idea of these scenes being more flushed out and more impactive to the individuals involved in them. I dont think it's broken for what it is. I quite enjoy seeing my character finally have a reason to exist in the MMO space. I don't expect singleplayer levels of depth, but maybe that's because i'm so used to no depth at all in recent MMOs. I played Wow since launch, and have dabbled in many others, and for the first time i actually care about my character, not just what hes wearing or what DPS hes pumping out. Id like to think that someday i can get the level of personal focus on my character that i do in mass effect or skyrim or any other single player RPG. I dont know how thats possible. Itll take someone way smarter than me to figure it out, i guess. but maybe a few steps above where we are is possible now. If so, i'd like to see that as well.

@DexterKid It sounds to me like you wanted to play KOTOR 3 and not an MMO. You are the sole hero of the story in 95% of the game. The only time you are not is in Heroic and Flashpoint quests that you don't need to do. Comprimise over a decision at a 3 way text box? Fine, use skype and talk to a friend you are playing with if you have a friend. If not, tough. Deal with a random role. It is a group quest meaning you are playing with other humans at or around you level of skill and ability. Stop crying and learn to share your toys. As for the finding groups thing it can be a pain in the ass but thats because very few people read the tool tips and learn to use the /who command that allows you to mark and search for anyone using LFG in the chat box etc.

@DexterKid: I would hope it would be pretty obvious people know this is your opinion, but you act surprised that people are disagreeing with you on it. I didn't bother to read 5 pages of pointless banter, but I'm not sure how you want people to "argue" with you? Saying they're terrible is a bit of an extreme, especially in an MMO, and the fact that it's an entirely new concept to MMOs anyway. I think someone just needed to be the bigger person and ignore the insults and continue making a point.

All that being said, I definitely agree to the fact that flashpoints/group quests are basically single-player quests with a /random tacked on the end, and it's kind of annoying that the direction taken is determined by something as dumb as a dice roll. Sorry if I missed it, but perhaps you elaborated that *either* the story should focus on your character (something like phasing dialogue) or better synergized to the fact that you have 3+ other people with you? That I think most of us could agree to.

Then again, most of the dialogue is copy/paste anyway, with one extra sentence added in depending on what your "choice" is. It's more like an interactive movie with me taking breaks to collect space-bear asses.

@Ulain said:

@DexterKid: I would hope it would be pretty obvious people know this is your opinion, but you act surprised that people are disagreeing with you on it. I didn't bother to read 5 pages of pointless banter, but I'm not sure how you want people to "argue" with you? Saying they're terrible is a bit of an extreme, especially in an MMO, and the fact that it's an entirely new concept to MMOs anyway. I think someone just needed to be the bigger person and ignore the insults and continue making a point.

All that being said, I definitely agree to the fact that flashpoints/group quests are basically single-player quests with a /random tacked on the end, and it's kind of annoying that the direction taken is determined by something as dumb as a dice roll. Sorry if I missed it, but perhaps you elaborated that *either* the story should focus on your character (something like phasing dialogue) or better synergized to the fact that you have 3+ other people with you? That I think most of us could agree to.

Then again, most of the dialogue is copy/paste anyway, with one extra sentence added in depending on what your "choice" is. It's more like an interactive movie with me taking breaks to collect space-bear asses.

No I'm not surprised that people disagree with me, in fact I'm very much used to that and expect that. But there is a big difference between having a different opinion and attacking someone else's opinion; I guess the surprise is more in the fact that people are so offended by any negative notion towards 'their game' that they will automatically respond with personal comments and attacks against someone who has the unpopular opinion. But that's not a surprise either it's just a constant annoyance of interacting with people on forums. Maybe it's just me, but I never go into a thread and tell someone to 'stop crying', just because I don't agree with them.

And to your other point; Yes that is, in a roundabout way, what I've been repeatedly saying in this thread.

I think it's funny that you have a text box where you can directly speak to the people who have so wronged you, but you'd rather have your character argue with them.

@Brodehouse I don't think its so much about having your character argue, as much as react to the situation. If you want to be the hero and save a mans life, and another player arbitrarily kills him because that's how he's playing his character, and he won the dice roll, your dude shouldn't just sit there off camera ignoring it happened. He should be incensed to some degree and as a player trying to be immersed in his character, you should feel at least a touch of that anger/indignation/frustration. When you play mass effect or dragon age your party members react, and in single player story missions even your companions react. It would be nice if the player was able to either react or at least have his character represent some kind of reaction to the situation around him.

His point isn't that he wants other players to react differently, he wants his character to still feel like it matters in group settings, and if hes unlucky with rolls, aside from as a cardboard cut out role, his character basically wont be there at all.

@DexterKid said:

Sorry to upset your sensibilities, but you've missed my point completely guy. It doesn't matter who my party member is or what they did up to that point. The point is that this is meant to be my story and I'm supposed to be invested in my character like I am in a Mass Effect or Dragon Age; that's the entire selling point of this game that I've paid 40 quid to buy and 9 quid a month to play. And your solution is 'well...don't do those quest'?

wait wait wait wait wait..... where the fuck do you live that you can pay for shit with squids?

@Leekspin said:

@DexterKid said:

Sorry to upset your sensibilities, but you've missed my point completely guy. It doesn't matter who my party member is or what they did up to that point. The point is that this is meant to be my story and I'm supposed to be invested in my character like I am in a Mass Effect or Dragon Age; that's the entire selling point of this game that I've paid 40 quid to buy and 9 quid a month to play. And your solution is 'well...don't do those quest'?

wait wait wait wait wait..... where the fuck do you live that you can pay for shit with squids?