6 pool is undefendable?

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Bollard

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#1  Edited By Bollard

Just, watch this replay, and someone tell me how I could have stopped it. I scouted the six pool, built 2 gates to wall in, and his lings arrived before my first zealot was even half done. 
 
http://www.mediafire.com/?f3iokk5w7z2yr2p

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Beaudacious

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#2  Edited By Beaudacious

Upload fail,  Vemeo, Youtube?.
 
I call Trojan virus in this file.

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usernamesuck123

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#3  Edited By usernamesuck123

people always blame the game... its never there own fault no no. making the wall thigt that would help alot

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Bollard

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#4  Edited By Bollard
@Beaudacious: Yes a trojan in my .sc2replay file. Mhmm thanks for the input. 
 
@usernamesuck123 said:
people always blame the game... 
I genuinely want to fucking know how I was supposed to stop this, without being psychic. Heck, even if I had known sooner I have no idea what I could have done.
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#5  Edited By elbon

you didn't wall-in that why you lost. you should of block the gap with a pylon and rally a zealot to the outside, or gone forge and got cannon up.
 
edit : you could of put some probes in the way to buy time for your zealot

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#6  Edited By usernamesuck123
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Bollard

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#7  Edited By Bollard
@Elbon said:

you didn't wall-in that why you lost. you should of block the gap with a pylon and rally a zealot to the outside, or gone forge and got cannon up

Mmm, walling in completely just seems so counter intuitive - I always thought you could achieve a walloff with a Zealot. Thanks for the response
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#8  Edited By TullyAckland

@Elbon said:

you didn't wall-in that why you lost. you should of block the gap with a pylon and rally a zealot to the outside, or gone forge and got cannon up

Exactly

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Bollard

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#9  Edited By Bollard
@usernamesuck123 said:

@Chavtheworldhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcSnqeXp6JQ sorry bout the language.

How... EDIT: Did I say French? What the hell am I on about, it's not French at all! Tis clearly Italian.
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#10  Edited By Joru
@Chavtheworld
Go Gateway + forge and build a cannon behind. If you don't scout it early enough - kill the first lings with your probes while your zealot is being made. Both of these may be counter-intuitive, but if you defend successfully, you are going to be far ahead even though you lost workers / had to destroy one of your buildings. 
 
You can achieve a wall off with a zealot put on hold, but in this case you just don't have the time. For terran, basically the same idea works and for zerg one of the usual responses is to drop a pool yourself at 10 food or just generally as soon as possible.
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#11  Edited By Thule

6 pools are far from undefendable. Remember it's a 6 pool, it's an all-in. All you need to do is hold it off and 99.9% of the time you'll win.

You made a couple of critical mistakes, which lost you the game. Now, I'm a Zerg player, so my advice might not be the best.

You reacted well enough once you scouted the six pool and immediately dropped 2 Gates, however you kept making probes and even chrono-boosted them. That was a big mistake. You had 150 minerals(3 probes queud) locked up in your nexus and wasted a chrono on workers, rather than zealots.(or a blocking pylon) You also had 2 idle probes, one in your opponent's natural and one between your Gates and Nexus. If the game's in an early stage like this, you really need to have all your workers doing something, even a small amount of minerals can make a difference.

You might've also considered just walling off the gap inbetween your ramp and Gate with a Pylon, this could've bought you a precious number of seconds, allowing you to get more zealots out. You might've also just completely walled off with your two Gates. This means he'd have to either commit and kill a Gate(which'll take a while, but allow you to build more Zealots) or forced him to back off and make drones, which would've made him vulnerable to a push later on.

Once the zerglings were in your base and could target that vulnerable Pylon, it was a losing battle. Unit control is also very important when 6 pools are concerned. You need to keep and eye on your probes and pull back weak ones(clicking them back to mining works well, they'll ghost walk through everything and will no longer count as fighting, which means a-moved zerglings will ignore them.) You had a couple of probes wandering down your ramp and dying needlessly once you held off the first wave. I'm also thinking you maybe pulled too many probes once the first lings were in your base, a more measured response would've allowed you to have a little bit of an income to make a pylon in the gap once you held his first wave off.

Hope this helps.

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#12  Edited By Bollard
@Joru said:
@Chavtheworld: Go Gateway + forge and build a cannon behind. If you don't scout it early enough - kill the first lings with your probes while your zealot is being made. Both of these may be counter-intuitive, but if you defend successfully, you are going to be far ahead even though you lost workers / had to destroy one of your buildings.  You can achieve a wall off with a zealot put on hold, but in this case you just don't have the time. For terran, basically the same idea works and for zerg one of the usual responses is to drop a pool yourself at 10 food or just generally as soon as possible.
Ah thanks, I'll give it a shot next time. I always tend to misclick when I'm microing zealots around buildings though so I'm bound to mess it up :P
 
@Thule said:

6 pools are far from undefendable. Remember it's a 6 pool, it's an all-in. All you need to do is hold it off and 99.9% of the time you'll win.

You made a couple of critical mistakes, which lost you the game. Now, I'm a Zerg player, so my advice might not be the best.

You reacted well enough once you scouted the six pool and immediately dropped 2 Gates, however you kept making probes and even chrono-boosted them. That was a big mistake. You had 150 minerals(3 probes queud) locked up in your nexus and wasted a chrono on workers, rather than zealots.(or a blocking pylon) You also had 2 idle probes, one in your opponent's natural and one between your Gates and Nexus. If the game's in an early stage like this, you really need to have all your workers doing something, even a small amount of minerals can make a difference.

You might've also considered just walling off the gap inbetween your ramp and Gate with a Pylon, this could've bought you a precious number of seconds, allowing you to get more zealots out. You might've also just completely walled off with your two Gates. This means he'd have to either commit and kill a Gate(which'll take a while, but allow you to build more Zealots) or forced him to back off and make drones, which would've made him vulnerable to a push later on.

Once the zerglings were in your base and could target that vulnerable Pylon, it was a losing battle. Unit control is also very important when 6 pools are concerned. You need to keep and eye on your probes and pull back weak ones(clicking them back to mining works well, they'll ghost walk through everything and will no longer count as fighting, which means a-moved zerglings will ignore them.) You had a couple of probes wandering down your ramp and dying needlessly once you held off the first wave. I'm also thinking you maybe pulleed too many probes once the first lings were in your base.

Hope this helps.

Yeah my micro isn't of a high enough standard really to effectively pull the right amount of probes, so I had to just grab a bunch. Which was unfortunate. Thanks for the walling off tips, also yeah I probably shouldn't have left the idling probe around his natural. Also I didn't think to cancel my queued probes - although I had already committed the chrono before I noticed the 6pool.  
Thanks Thuleee
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#13  Edited By BlackIrish05

Gateway pylon forge. Nuff said

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#14  Edited By Do_The_Manta_Ray

I'll genuinely agree with the tc, zerg-protoss 1v1 is nasty business. Heck, it gets even worse if it's 2v2 with a duece of zergs against same said protoss combo.

First of all, I'm very much against blocking off your entire base as 'toss, but in 1v1, it can be unavoidable. Though it definitely does have it's shares of backsides.. Unless you're going for a void-ray rush; destroying that pylon of yours is going to be a major set-back. What most people here seem to forget is that by using0 a 6-pool, you set the enemy on the defensive, which is a fantastic excuse to expand quickly. Roll in a few banelings, and bam, that's it.

Remember, first of all; lings go down really quick against your probes. Enemy sends 6 or less, and your probes can handle them while you pump out two zealots. Your main focus, ofcourse, is getting up a forge quickly, one photon-cannon beyond the initial building-wall and a zealot or two can handle any subsequent ling-rush he might be thinking of doing onto you.

What's important, mind; is to keep scouting him after his initial attacks, it's a 50-50 chance he'll try to keep attacking you, in which case you can continue to produce units and go for a counter-attack with your zealots; or that he'll sit back and begin to tech. (Probably mutas); which case you expand quick and get stalkers. Or if you're confident enough about your force, attack.

Or simply play Terran, and never have to worry about a 6-pool again.

Good luck, mate.

Also, while Thule has got very specific and constructive criticism regarding your choice of play, I'd say that micro-ing isn't all that necessary against a 6-pool, simply commit most of your minerals to quickly producing zealots/photon cannons; turn the Zerg's massive mineral-input into a loss for him. Though I will argue that a 6-pool isn't an all-in. In 90 % of the cases, it forces your enemy onto the defensive; which lets you expand very quickly. Not to mention that you have a standing force that's able to take down any early-game army sent your way.

A 6-pool leaves you highly vurnerable for counter-attacks, mind; which is the key to winning the game, should an enemy attempt it.

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#15  Edited By Rayeth

The key to beating a 6 pool is realizing that you are already ahead in economy and all you need to do is stay alive and 99% of the time you win. Once you scout it STOP making workers immediately. Walling in is the safest thing to do. Be ready to throw down more pylons or buildings as the ones in front die. Getting a forge can also be helpful. Usually if you get up 1 cannon at your wall their attack is doomed to failure. Obviously this will be tense so keeping your wits about it is essential. Remember you are already winning in the economy war. Keep chronoboosting your gates and/or warpgate depending on the situation. Make Zealots or sentries. And enjoy the cheeser's tears when you win.

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#16  Edited By Thule

@Chavtheworld:

No problem. Just ask a zerg friend to 6 pool you for an hour or something, so you can work on your responses and micro. It'll help you feel a bit more confident once you actually encounter a zerg on ladder who six pools you.

@Do_The_Manta_Ray said:

First of all, I'm very much against blocking off your entire base as 'toss, but in 1v1, it can be unavoidable. Though it definitely does have it's shares of backsides.. Unless you're going for a void-ray rush; destroying that pylon of yours is going to be a major set-back. What most people here seem to forget is that by using0 a 6-pool, you set the enemy on the defensive, which is a fantastic excuse to expand quickly. Roll in a few banelings, and bam, that's it.

There's a reason why a 6 pool is called an all-in. Sure, you can expand off off it, but you'll still lose unless your opponent is terrible. Expanding off a 6 pool isn't smart anyway, because you won't even have enough drones to saturate everything. Best way to transition out of it is to just make a Queen and go from there.

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#17  Edited By Bollard
D@Do_The_Manta_Ray said:

I'll genuinely agree with the tc, zerg-protoss 1v1 is nasty business. Heck, it gets even worse if it's 2v2 with a duece of zergs against same said protoss combo.

First of all, I'm very much against blocking off your entire base as 'toss, but in 1v1, it can be unavoidable. Though it definitely does have it's shares of backsides.. Unless you're going for a void-ray rush; destroying that pylon of yours is going to be a major set-back. What most people here seem to forget is that by using0 a 6-pool, you set the enemy on the defensive, which is a fantastic excuse to expand quickly. Roll in a few banelings, and bam, that's it.

Remember, first of all; lings go down really quick against your probes. Enemy sends 6 or less, and your probes can handle them while you pump out two zealots. Your main focus, ofcourse, is getting up a forge quickly, one photon-cannon beyond the initial building-wall and a zealot or two can handle any subsequent ling-rush he might be thinking of doing onto you.

What's important, mind; is to keep scouting him after his initial attacks, it's a 50-50 chance he'll try to keep attacking you, in which case you can continue to produce units and go for a counter-attack with your zealots; or that he'll sit back and begin to tech. (Probably mutas); which case you expand quick and get stalkers. Or if you're confident enough about your force, attack.

Or simply play Terran, and never have to worry about a 6-pool again.

Good luck, mate.


Or simply play Terran, and never have to worry about a 6-pool again.

Don't tempt me more than I already am! Also, thanks for the reply. 
 
@Thule said:

@Chavtheworld:

No problem. Just ask a zerg friend to 6 pool you for an hour or something, so you can work on your responses and micro. It'll help you feel a bit more confident once you actually encounter a zerg on ladder who six pools you.

Yeah I might just do that. I reckon it'd help in our 2v2's as well, as with my Terran partner I'm always the vulnerable one when it comes to 6 pools. I always forget that probes take like half a second to slow down and place something also - making me put fully walling off pylons etc down always too late. Which sux.
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#18  Edited By Do_The_Manta_Ray

@Chavtheworld: I'm a damn good Terran and 'Toss player, but only decent as the Zerg. Hell, I wouldn't mind sparring with you if you're interested. Send me a message if that's the case. One last constructive tip, though, mate. Know your enemy. If you don't count yourself as a half-way alright Zerg player, try doing a few practise games as them, yourself. Get to understand how their economy works and just what's required to pull off a 6-pool, and preferably see it fail against other players.

I mostly play Zerg for fun, (and because Heart of the Swarm has me in a constant state of euphoria), but playing as Zerg has definitely improved my play against other Zerg player.

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#19  Edited By Bollard
@Do_The_Manta_Ray: Ahhh I see, thanks for the offer - are you on the NA or EU server though? Also I'm a pretty mediocre Protoss and Terran player (Silver for lyfe <3), and I literally know nothing about Zerg;  so maybe it would benefit me to actually play some. 
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#20  Edited By Joru
@Chavtheworld: One idea I just had is that you could go to www.day9.tv and watch the last last game of the Dreamhack summer final in the archive. HuK got six-pooled there and he defended even though he took an expo as well. He didn't do anything too clever either, just generally good play, so nothing you couldn't learn from.
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#21  Edited By Bollard
@Joru: Ahh thats a good idea thanks - I've been meaning to check out some of the Dreamhack games anyway (I enjoy watching SC2 more than playing it, but my internet connection is too bad for streaming). Still surprised that HuK actually won something! I am right in thinking he won overall right?
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#22  Edited By Joru
@Chavtheworld: Yeah, I think he only lost 3 games in total in that tournament and two of those were in the final. 2-4 places were all koreans as well, so he's definitely getting real good training in the oGs/TL house.
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#23  Edited By Bollard
@Joru: Awesome stuff.
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#24  Edited By raiz265

i know whitera always builds his first gate inside his base rather than at the ramp vs zerg because of early pool builds, he just chronoboosts zealots and uses micro to hold of the lings and then walls with his cybercore and second gateway.. that might be an advanced strategy tho
 
 
personally i always scout after putting down the pylon on 9 supply, this normally gives me  enough time to scout/react to it on 2 player maps... normally also on 4 player maps unles si get terribly unlucky 
 
you can either throw down a second gate when you scout the early pool or a forge next to your gateway at the ramp and complete the wall with an additional pylon and build 1-2 cannons behind your wall

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#25  Edited By DG991

@Joru: Thats what I was going to respond with when I saw the title of this thread. Undefendable you say?

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#26  Edited By Cataphract1014

Forge instead of a second gate.  Wall with a pylon in your choke until the cannon finishes.

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#27  Edited By baldgye

if someone 6pools you, they have gifted you the game.
 
ok, easy way to have won that game, only build one gate and make it flush with the pylon, then rally your zelot to your mineral line. When he moves in just move a handful of probes with ur zelot and defend it, carry on building probes/pylons and zelots and if you must thrown down a forge... 
 
ta-da... you lost becasue u threw down another gateway and then left a hole... if you're going to wall off use a forge and make it tight.

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#28  Edited By sjschmidt93

You need to wall with 2 gates and pylon, chronoboost your first zealot and rally it to the other side of your wall and then kill your pylon with your zealot and 5-6 probes. 

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#29  Edited By Ravenlight

Step 1: Make marines 
Step 2: Make more marines 
Step 3: MAKE MORE MARINES 
Step 4: See Step 3

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#30  Edited By baldgye
@Ravenlight said:
Step 1: Make marines Step 2: Make more marines Step 3: MAKE MORE MARINES Step 4: See Step 3
shouldn't step one be to switch race?

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