The first chapter in the StarCraft II trilogy focuses on the struggles of the Terran race, as seen through the eyes of Commander Jim Raynor, leader of the rebel group Raynor's Raiders.
I really don't have too much time to spend on SC2, i usually fit in about 1-3 games a day, thats not to say i'm bad, i'm actually on a 23 win streak, nonetheless i can't believe how ridiculous cheesing is. This dude i playd with a couple of times, he was horrible, he only know how to do 1 build, the 10 pool, and while every time i play i try to focus and remember, to keep drone production, scouting, reactivness. I used to be diamond, but since i don't play much it removed me from it, i'm currently 2400 plat, which is like 2200 diamond.
That other dude, however, i just checked his match history, EVERY match same build, and guess what? 2800 diamond player. I mean wth? How do people in diamond fall for a mediocre cheese like the 10 pool. Anw point is, i just don't get why people are losing to him...
This is sort of a rant? what are your feelings on consistent cheese builds? I admit i sneak in a terran game for a boxer rush now and then, or a toss game for canon rush, but i mean seriously, how is this guy on a like 10 win streak with such a build?
The game is still young so cheesing is going to work and as long as players can get any wins out of it that is all they are going to do because that is all they know how to do.
Nothing bad with only doing 1 build, a lot of Koreans do. 10 pool probably isn't the best, but with only 1 build essentially what you should be doing is working on perfecting it so that it's really good/strong, and then diverging based on the game situation midgame.
Also, I'm tired of complains about cheese or all-ins. They're part of the game, and essentially all they are is strategies that are very strong early game but terribly weak midgame, and may be unconventional. All it means is that your econ based strategy/micro has to be sound enough to defend against the cheese, and then you win. The pros/cons balance out.
" I really don't have too much time to spend on SC2, i usually fit in about 1-3 games a day, thats not to say i'm bad, i'm actually on a 23 win streak, nonetheless i can't believe how ridiculous cheesing is. This dude i playd with a couple of times, he was horrible, he only know how to do 1 build, the 10 pool, and while every time i play i try to focus and remember, to keep drone production, scouting, reactivness. I used to be diamond, but since i don't play much it removed me from it, i'm currently 2400 plat, which is like 2200 diamond. That other dude, however, i just checked his match history, EVERY match same build, and guess what? 2800 diamond player. I mean wth? How do people in diamond fall for a mediocre cheese like the 10 pool. Anw point is, i just don't get why people are losing to him... This is sort of a rant? what are your feelings on consistent cheese builds? I admit i sneak in a terran game for a boxer rush now and then, or a toss game for canon rush, but i mean seriously, how is this guy on a like 10 win streak with such a build? "
Lol I wonder why do you call the 10 pool a cheese?
Sure, it's not exactly the most economy oriented build in the world but it's good if you want to be agressive early .
I'm sick of people calling every strategy they lose to "cheesy". Besides, 10 pool is easily scoutable so could you have possibly lost to it more than once?
i've been doing the 2 racks all in build that the Koreans do and its been working, but then again i feel bad when i do it. especially since now its the only build i can do and it wont help me be any better.
@imsh_pl: This guy has like 20 apm and he is beating semi pros just by doing a ridiculous build, i don't mind the fact that its early, mind the fact that he sucks and is still getting wins because of how imba cheese is. Cheese should take at least a little micro to pull off.
@Thule: Well thats the thing, i just looked at his build order the last 10-15 games. Dude doesn't have ANY macro... he just does the same shit, i will see if i can get a replay of him doing it.
@gamefreak9: You don't convert plat points to diamond points. Assuming the ranking system is working the way it was intended (which, granted, it often doesn't), every diamond player should be better than every platinum player. This is another problem with the bonus pool and how points work. I have a 2v2 team that doesn't really use any team strategy, but we played so many games in platinum that when we barely got bumped up to diamond we were in the NA top 1000.
@EkajArmstro: Well actually if your not an active player you get kicked out of diamond, i think if you don't play for like 1-2 weeks that is. I'm pretty sure that the points matter more than the league though, why else would a plat player retain most of his points? I mean if i went into diamond today, i would be like 2200, which means that i would be better than half the diamond players(in rank), but i just came from plat.
Guys this dude is winning by sticking with the same tactic, even though the tactic can be countered. Cheesing uguys. Nobody knows what the fuck cheesing is anymore.
@gamefreak9: 1.You don't "convert" points. Sure, if you have 2500 before going to diamond and you finally get there, you'll propably have a few hundred points in your new league, but a 2200 diamond player is not equal to a 2400 plat player.
2.You still neglected to expalin why is 10pool a "cheese".
3.If a guy gets cheesed in diamond and loses then he can only blame himself.
@imsh_pl: Okay heres my definition, a build that anyone can pull off and yet can climb to the top. Especially when its a build like this, that requires no macro... a build that doesn't pit all the skills of sc2 players against each other. But mostly its just a cheap tactic that anyone can pull off and yet is surprisingly efficient.
Anw 10 pool is slightly less cheesy than 6 pool, but this guy basically does a 10 pool over a 6 pool for speedlings. Part of the game is being able to react, especially zerg... and this guy would probably go mass lings against mass lots, by just using this build this guy actually does not know how to play.
TBH i'm not too sure on how the ranking system works, i would agree with you but as a plat player, i am pitted against alot of diamond players(majority of my matchups actually), and i just presumed it was because of my score.
When i said cheese is imba, i was not saying that its impossible to stop, its imbalanced because crappy players can get good scores, so its imbalanced in that people scores are not accurately reflected. I realize theres virtually no good way to fix cheese builds(by making them harder to pull off), or at least i can't imagine one, which is why this is a rant.
The guy hasn't been on for awhile so i can't get replays.
If you dont think 10 pool is cheese I STRONGLY suggest you watch this video in its entirety! Its whats in store for you if you keep up with those kind of tactics......
You know what's pathetic. All of you morons come read this topic and focus on the fact that the guy called something "cheese" that you dont think is technically "cheese" and that's all you're focusing on because I guess it's fun to be a dick or something.
Now, to focus on the actual question here which is "How can someone do the same simple, risky, all in strategy and still get away with it to be a highly rated diamond player". I would say the reason why this works is because too many people that play this game only care about winning and dont actually care about getting better at the game. It seems to me like a lot of people practice one strategy and just do it every game and then it's basically a battle between whose chosen build is superior. Yes, there are a lot of players in diamond who are actually good and can scout and change their plan to counter or deal with what the opponent is doing, but I still feel like there are too many stupid people playing this game that dont want to actually get better at it. Also, I think the game is young enough for these people to still survive by doing the same thing, but when the game is eventually older and figured out, I feel like even the platinum and gold players will be good enough at the game that it wont be effective to do one stupid simple strategy every time. Another question I can never answer though is why the hell anyone would waste their time playing this game without actually learning how to play it effectively. I play this game not to win every single game, but to get better. Yeah, I could probably be a super high rated diamond player right now if I decided to do one stupid all in strategy every game, but I am trying to work on the skills that actually make you a better player like macro and effectively dealing with the opponent after scouting.
@gamefreak9: Man i dont know. I didnt know specifically what 10 pool was so I tried to Youtube it. Fuck, I want to say his voice is fake as its so far gone off the scale of wrong, but i think it is real. I couldnt watch past about 20s before I shut it down. It was too painful.
The way I look at it, the way Starcraft is set up, cheese is just a strategy to attempt, especially in a game where you play to win. Sure, it sucks when you lose to it, but it sucks when you lose a 20 min game. What I like about SC2 is that no strategy, cheese or not, is unbeatable. Some people like to throw words like imba around a lot, but the game is getting pretty close to balanced. As for trying the same strategy over and over again, starcraft matchmaking is cool like that. You aren't going to fight the same dude more then once, so you can prefect the same basic three builds as you climb the ladder. For me, I experiment new things when I play with friends.
I know no one in this post complained about Terran imbalance, but I take the following to heart when addressing claims of imbalance in general (GSL Spoilers).
Now, to focus on the actual question here which is "How can someone do the same simple, risky, all in strategy and still get away with it to be a highly rated diamond player".
Answer to your question: YOU CAN'T
Show me a single person who is in diamond using 6pool all the time. You'll then tell me that there are none, but there are ones who use 10pool. I'll then tell you that it's not simple. Seems like we can't continue this conversation without you defining "simple"
If by simple you mean a strategy that is the same for every player - such as the 6pool (6pool, pump lings till game over) then you're misinformed - if a guy loses to 6pool often while being in diamond, I'd say he doesn't deserve his spot in the diamond league, since EVERYONE IN DIAMOND KNOWS HOW TO DEFEND A 6POOL.
Also, why is "all in" or "risky" bad?
PS.A quote from my comment 2 weeks ago:
" Ok, so you're saying that a 6pool is fine because the win matters, right?
Well, not exactly.
Let me tell you an example.
You just learned to 6pool. You love it. You beat every player in your bronze league, and you can get 10 wins a day in 90 minutes. You get into a game, you win. You get into another one, you win again, and again and again.
You get promoted to silver league! You click the "find match"button, hoping for more easy wins. You beat the guy, and he ragequits. Then you play again. And you win.
Then you play another game, but this time, you lose. The guy barely held it, but then he just outmacro'ed you. You think to yourself "fine, one loss, whatever". You go into another game, you win it. Then another one, and the next one, and the next one as well. Then - no big deal - you lose a game. You just got promoted to gold league!
And this is where things start getting different.
You go into a match, attempt a 6pool, but the guys smashes you. He didn't even scout your 6pool, but it wasn't even close. You think to yourself "no big deal, I'll make it up later".
But the next match is the same. The guy easily held your rush off, and steamrolls you one handed. You go into the next match, you lose. Then the next one too. Then the next one you win, but it doesn't matter; your six next matches are 3 minute losses.
And this is the point that every "cheeser" meets. Be it cannon rushing, 6pool or worker rush: you finally get to a point when your strategy doesn't work anymore, and you've just realised that you're surrounded by players far better than you, who patiently trained their macro skills and build orders for the past 4 weeks, while you were using a strategy that's completely useless now. You opponents are happy to see you six pool (hey, a free win!), and you just realised that you've spent a month of your life on a game that you can't even play effectively on mid- to top level. "
@John1912: Well, the guy who 10pooled won against the worst protoss player I've ever seen, I can't see why that proves anything about the strategy being imbalanced.
" @John1912: Well, the guy who 10pooled won against the worst protoss player I've ever seen, I can't see why that proves anything about the strategy being imbalanced. "
I only posted the video to see who would actually listen to that painful voice. Also when the hell did Zerg rush become 10 pool. Either way who cares.
@imsh_pl: I like that quote you posted. Sums it perfectly. Anybody who relies totally on all in's (i like that term better then cheese meself...seems to fit better) is gonna have a real harsh wake up when they reach higher levels. This reminds me of match i played the other day, I scouted a 6pool a bit late but with my drones and a spine popping half way through the attack held it. He kept sending lings a few at a time, I kept fighting them off while droning up and getting my queen and lings out. Five minutes into the game, he leaves. Why do you even play if that's all you can do?
It's an opening. By your logic, since every opening is easy to do (NOT ALWAYS easy to defend while doing one, mind you), then every SC II player is a cheeser.
If I make 9pylon 13gate and kill a guy with my initial 2 zealot stalker push, am I a cheeser?
@Paulio131: Usually it's used to describe an early all in build. So yeah a 6pool rush, cannon rush, reaper rush (before the nerf) stuff like that. It's irritating as hell no doubt but if you scout it and deal with it, the other player is screwed.
Okay heres my definition, a build that anyone can pull off and yet can climb to the top. Especially when its a build like this, that requires no macro... a build that doesn't pit all the skills of sc2 players against each other. But mostly its just a cheap tactic that anyone can pull off and yet is surprisingly efficient.
Yes, it happens. Deal with it. Sure, you might be a better player overall, but it's the match that matters. I think that over time, you'll see most people be able to handle the common cheese builds better, simply because the builds are well known and people will encounter them often.
@gamefreak9
said:
Anw 10 pool is slightly less cheesy than 6 pool, but this guy basically does a 10 pool over a 6 pool for speedlings. Part of the game is being able to react, especially zerg... and this guy would probably go mass lings against mass lots, by just using this build this guy actually does not know how to play.
A 10-pool is not cheesy. 6/7 pool is the only pool considered cheesy. But a 10-pool can be a good early offensive opening out of which you can transition into a more economical one.
'Does not know how to play'.
There we go again. There's no knowing how to play, there's only winning and losing. You will simply have to deal with it and learn how to handle a cheese build. I also get cheesed and I also get frustrated, but I can't really blame my opponent for not knowing how to play, considering he beat me. Yes, maybe you're a better player overall, but that's part of the ladder: It's a Bo1 not a Bo3 or Bo5.
@gamefreak9
said:
TBH i'm not too sure on how the ranking system works, i would agree with you but as a plat player, i am pitted against alot of diamond players(majority of my matchups actually), and i just presumed it was because of my score. When i said cheese is imba, i was not saying that its impossible to stop, its imbalanced because crappy players can get good scores, so its imbalanced in that people scores are not accurately reflected.
Ranking is something you should totally forget about, unless your opponent is Diamond 2500+, it doesn't matter. People's scores aren't accurately reflected because the ladder is full of people who never play anymore and the bonus pool inflation that happened over the last few months.
Just opening a thread to rant about something isn't going to solve anything. I like Teamliquid where you're not allowed to make a "I can't beat X-strategy" thread without posting replays of you losing to said build. Right now, this thread is useless. Post replays so we can analyze them and give you advice or stop whining.
@Thule: As i said b4, i am not here for advice, i am here to get opinions on cheesing, like i also said before, the 10 pool does not work on me. In other words thread: What do you guys think of cheese builds? My opinion = i think they are ridiculous, thanks any more? get off the forums if your going to have such a shitty attitude.
Now moving, on the game is not about winning, thats some competitive macho bs who gets no satisfaction from RL so he relies on video games to fill the void. Its about making in game choices and managing your economy, base. Aka just cheesing, like this, your going in blind(aka no choice), and you might as well just copy on a blackboard "i am awsome" because its just as repetitive donkey work.
" @Thule: As i said b4, i am not here for advice, i am here to get opinions on cheesing, like i also said before, the 10 pool does not work on me. In other words thread: What do you guys think of cheese builds? My opinion = i think they are ridiculous, thanks any more? get off the forums if your going to have such a shitty attitude. Now moving, on the game is not about winning, thats some competitive macho bs who gets no satisfaction from RL so he relies on video games to fill the void. Its about making in game choices and managing your economy, base. Aka just cheesing, like this, your going in blind(aka no choice), and you might as well just copy on a blackboard "i am awsome" because its just as repetitive donkey work. "
Hold on there, I didn't say the game is all about winning. I said that in a context. Being that when you analyze who the better player is, the ladder judges you based on winning or losing, not on you 'knowing how to play' or 'being the better player'.
I wanted to help you out, but if all you want out of this thread is 'opinions' then I'm out.
@gamefreak9: You're welcome. My advice, dont ever post anything about Starcraft II on Giantbomb because most of the people on here are pissy little children who would rather nit pick at little things that dont matter rather than try to participate in an actual discussion or give someone kind advice and reasoning as to why something someone said might be wrong or misguided.
@gamefreak9: I'll repeat again: cheesing doesn't work on mid- to top level. Since cheese is a build that requires no skill ,that means it requiers no variation from the player. If it requires no variation, every cheese game is the same. And ,if you're in Diamond, you should know how to defend against a 6pool (sure, you can lose to it fro mtime to time, but if you made it up to diamond, that propably means you've been cheesed a million times before but still were able to hold it off).
Also, you say that "the game is about making in game choices and managing your economy". Yes, that's right ,but it's also about staying alive and killing your opponent. If you want to play the game on a good level, you have to be able to defend against a well known strategy.
@DoctorWelch: Well, I can't really see how can you give your advice to someone when I think he's wrong. If somebody gives me a stupid question (like you did, "why can people using simple starts be in top diamond" - they can't, they aren't), I'll try to tell them why I think they're wrong first.
The guy's first comment basically means "I know that cheesing is imba, tell me what do you think about it". It's natural that I'll try to convince him when I think he's wrong before answering a question based on a wrong assumption.
" @gamefreak9: I'll repeat again: cheesing doesn't work on mid- to top level. Since cheese is a build that requires no skill ,that means it requiers no variation from the player. If it requires no variation, every cheese game is the same. And ,if you're in Diamond, you should know how to defend against a 6pool (sure, you can lose to it fro mtime to time, but if you made it up to diamond, that propably means you've been cheesed a million times before but still were able to hold it off).
Also, you say that "the game is about making in game choices and managing your economy". Yes, that's right ,but it's also about staying alive and killing your opponent. If you want to play the game on a good level, you have to be able to defend against a well known strategy. "
The GSL would disagree with your bolded statement, lol. edit- it's possible to win with cheese on any level, if you're tricky enough/it's really cheesy and it starts before they scout, etc. I just saw Idra lose to a cannon rush the other day on his stream, shit happens all the time to everyone.
Cheese is the word people use when they rely on blizzard to solve their in-game problems. If you aren't willing to put in the time to defend against such builds then you don't deserve to win those games any more than the opponent. The one reliable way to get better is to work harder at it.
This post wasn't necessarily directed at the op, I'm just tired of people bitching about stuff that they have the ability to fix. The ssfiv boards are kinda the same way.
@Thrawn: I completely agree. At this point I don't think there's anything that people can blame blizzard for gameplay wise. that's not to say that the game is balanced, but rather that it's close enough that no one balance thing will cause you to lose.
My opinion on a 10 pool: its not cheese. You actually have an economy to do things with unlike say a 5 or 6 pool. My opinion on "cheese": it's a perfectly valid way of playing a game. They'll rise in ladder rankings until they hit a ceiling of people who know how to handle it easily, and then they'll have to learn how to play a game that's longer than 5 minutes.
" @DoctorWelch: Well, I can't really see how can you give your advice to someone when I think he's wrong. If somebody gives me a stupid question (like you did, "why can people using simple starts be in top diamond" - they can't, they aren't), I'll try to tell them why I think they're wrong first. The guy's first comment basically means "I know that cheesing is imba, tell me what do you think about it". It's natural that I'll try to convince him when I think he's wrong before answering a question based on a wrong assumption. "
Maybe try reading my criticism again. If you dont see the reason why your response is nonsensical, than I cant help you any further.
@DystopiaX: Well, I know that on the top level you can be like TSLRain, but I don't think his games are cheesy. Since a cheese is something that requires no skill, it's just blindy following a build order without any variation.
However "cheesy" some of the GSL matches appear to be, I just hate using the word "cheese" since people tend to think that if they lose to "cheese" that means your opponent is bad for using such a strategy, and they try to justify their losses in such a dumb way.
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