Why all the hate?
It seems like everytime I win against a Zerg player, I get a "If only Terran required skill." or a "Terran can suck it."
Can't we just get along?
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty
Game » consists of 10 releases. Released Jul 27, 2010
The first chapter in the StarCraft II trilogy focuses on the struggles of the Terran race, as seen through the eyes of Commander Jim Raynor, leader of the rebel group Raynor's Raiders.
Terran Hate
Well you have to admit, not as much maintenance is required out of terran, if you miss a mule timing it doesn't matter u can miss 4 of them with no repercussions since u can just throw them all down at once, whilst missing a larva spawn alot more costly since it doesn't stack + you don't have to make a choice between workers and army. Whilst zerg has the advantage of being able to rebuild quickly, its something that adds to the apm required.
But nonetheless there is too much hate for them, probably because people are not used to a turtling being a viable option for strategy games. I mean, its odd that if someone is running on 2-3 bases they can take out a 4-5 base zerg.
edit: o man, i guess i ain't forgiving :P. Nah, nah, terran are ok :P.
I know I'm not the best player, but I find it insane that I have to tech to tier 3 as Protoss to effectively counter Terran tier 1, and the two choices I can make are easily counterable by Terran tier 2.
I got a lot of room for improvement, but it seems silly.
I really don't understand -- it's quite difficult to pull off MMM, you can't simply 1a and hope you have more units than they do. Terran out of all races probably require the most micro because they have to use their range to their advantage and really, Terran right now is quite difficult. All the hate is because prior to it; a lot of early tier 1 units were a bit weak compared to Terran's early game. However, there have been repeated nerfs to Terran, so much so that TvZ is a pretty difficult match-up right now relying on pretty heavy Marine/Tank to counter Banelings. Yeah, marines to counter banelings. I shall not continue ranting, because I can write a lot more.
" Because the other races are punished much more for mistakes, and Terrans generally have more options in what they can do, leading to a variety of timing pushes that can be extremely difficult to stop without a lot of scouting. "@Cataphract1014 said:
" I know I'm not the best play, but I find it insane that I have to tech to tier 3 as Protoss to effectively counter Terran tier 1, and the two choices I can make are easily counterable by Terran tier 2. I got a lot of room for improvement, but it seems silly. "@gamefreak9 said:
" Well you have to admit, not as much maintenance is required out of terran, if you miss a mule timing it doesn't matter u can miss 4 of them with no repercussions since u can just throw them all down at once, whilst missing a larva spawn alot more costly since it doesn't stack + you don't have to make a choice between workers and army. Whilst zerg has the advantage of being able to rebuild quickly, its something that adds to the apm required. But nonetheless there is too much hate for them, probably because people are not used to a turtling being a viable option for strategy games. I mean, its odd that if someone is running on 2-3 bases they can take out a 4-5 base zerg. edit: o man, i guess i ain't forgiving :P. Nah, nah, terran are ok :P. "U have to admit that we are building a pretty solid list as to why huh :P. I'm pretty sure we all know that they are balanced as long as both players are at the peak of skill, but anything below like 1600 diamond rating they are OP.
@Wunder_ said:
Too bad the early/mid game always comes before late game." @Cataphract1014: Late game toss is amazingly devastating. 2/3gate robo is good, but I've seen people rush Templar tech; which is also great. "
@gamefreak9:
I wouldn't even say they're OP. Looking at tournament results, they're obviously not. I just think they're broken, design wise.
MMM is a good, straightforward build which has been taught to every Terran player everywhere by virtue of it's own hype, to the point that everyone knows how to execute it almost perfectly. The problem I don't think most Zergs realize is that they're losing not because MMM is overpowered, but because their opponent knows how to execute it extremely well and does so. There are plenty of equally solid Zerg builds which would, if executed equally well, crush MMM. They just haven't tried out the F key yet.
" MMM is a good, straightforward build which has been taught to every Terran player everywhere by virtue of it's own hype, to the point that everyone knows how to execute it almost perfectly. The problem I don't think most Zergs realize is that they're losing not because MMM is overpowered, but because their opponent knows how to execute it extremely well and does so. There are plenty of equally solid Zerg builds which would, if executed equally well, crush MMM. They just haven't tried out the F key yet. "Well zerg really don't have a single solid build. Since they are "reactionary" it means that we must adapt which means that every game strategy must be countering our opponent, although zerg has like no units that counter, its only units that are just not countered by the enemie's composition. In other words, if a zerg just goes the same build every game he will probably lose most of his games once he hits diamond, while if a terran just memorizes a build he can just replicate it every game... aka easy way out.
@Wunder_:
I completely agree with what you just said. Where are we disagreeing? I guess to clarify my previous post, I'm talking specifically about MMM pushes a bit later on, when lings alone can't cut it.@gamefreak9: Again, I don't think it's that no such build exists. I think it's that most Zergs haven't figured it out yet. I go Speedling -> Hydralisk + Infestor -> Ultralisk, and it seems to work well against nearly everything.
Although that sounds good in theory, its a little unrealistic to hope you have infestors before a marine timing push. And how bout tanks? do you use Neural parasite? I think that with your build a dozen tanks backed with a good amount of marines would own.
@Donos said:
If it took him that long to attack and let you pump drone the whole time, you could built practically anything and won." @gamefreak9: If I can get Hydralisk Infestor before he attacks, then no I'm not. Fungal growth holds marines out of range of Hydralisks, and deals significant damage to them. Hydras quickly deal the last bit of damage from a safe distance to finish them off. And, instead of trading my army of banelings, I've spent a bit of energy. "
@gamefreak9:@Entus: The question was if I would choose not to go banelings against mass marine. Those are the circumstances under which I will not go baneling against mass marine.
And yes, tanks before I get Ultralisks can be a problem for this build, but every build has to be weak to something or it would be OP. I'm currently experimenting with just running into his base when he moves out, then building a Nydus Network to escape his base when his army returns. Tank armies are slow, exploit it.
Edit: Alternative strategy for just attacking a bunch of tanks. Infestors can chuck infested terrans with pretty good range to soak up tank fire while other units go kill shit. It's not easy or entirely stable, but it can work.
What you describe sounds so foreign to me. Hydras? Nydus worms? In the last week, I haven't had a game vT where the terran didn't tank/thor drop on cliff or simply open with a foxer-esque mass marine heavy pressure opening, where I'm forced to make banelings, roaches or mutas (depending on his composition) to not die.
The problem from a toss perspective is that we are punished HARD for micro mistakes. While it does take more than 1a to beat a toss ball, as long as you can stim and back up(early game!) You can stop the zealots from getting to you and then wail on the lower dps of the stalkers and the sentries. The problem arises that force fields become a necessity, and if they are not placed right near immediately, the toss army dies. Near the later game it comes down to if toss gets colos or ht. If they go colos, then if your viking force is large enough, just emp the sentries and pack up while the now shieldless and vulnerable colos die to the vikings. If they go ht, just make sure you hit the emp right and its hard to lose since Marine and Marauder with a high medivac count will decimate the gateway ball that is now shieldless since the dps is insane.
I feel the real issues with PvT are the following:
1. Protoss air is expensive and easily countered by cheaper stimmed marines. Even the carriers interceptors melt under that AA, making the stargate largely usless.
2. While ht and colossus are great units, they take an extremely long time to tech to. Beyond the cyber, its 300/450 to get ht, and you only get that unit + the ability to upgrade for charge and blink, and acess to the 2+ ups from the forge. Thats an expesnive upgrade, and if its made when a timing push hits, its game over. While the colossus do provide you with more options(immortals, obs, and warp prism) its still 400/300 to get them, and with both, lots of TIME. Until then, toss has to rely on the unreliable gateway units that once stim hits, are just out dps'ed and need extremely good micto to defend.
3. Both colos and ht are vulnerable to counters. HT become useless if emp'ed, which isn't hard to do. Yes feedback does do damage back, but the aoe allows them to easily pick off multiple ht in one shot. Also, its easy to pick out the high visibility ht from a P ball, since they shimmer and look really different. The problem from the P side is that its hard to see the ghost, and if you do you have to click on its small model. Even then emp outrages feedback, so its very easy for the ht to be out of energy. The colos can get sniped by vikings, and as long as it is scouted(which isn't hard) the viking count can always be high enough to counter the colos in the ball. since they also have 9 range, they can be covered by the the MMM ball or put over terriang that makes it hard for the stalkers to hit them. And if the stalkers aren't doing dps to your ball because they are hunting down your ball then your winning.
4. Protoss need good positioning. The toss player needs his zealots in the front, with his sentiries and stalkers behind, and the colossus in the rear to do well. At all stages of the game, the mispositioned of units can wreak a toss army. Early on, if a toss player misengages, then the zealots die and most retreatinf forces do as well because of the conc shell on the marauders allows them to pick off misplaced units who can't get back to the main force. If the zealots are in the back then the sentries and stalkers die because the zealots cannot tank the damage. Late game if a colossus is misplaced then because of the the stimmed marauders dps against armored they melt even to small numbers, to the point that a few stimmed marauders can run up and snipe colossus if mispositioned. If the T army is misplaced they can stim, outrun everything, then fall back, and get a greater concave. Because of their stimmed speed they will almost always get the better concave and destroy a P ball, again requiring better postioning on the P players behalf.
5. EMP does more damage than storm. This may sound crazy but hear me out. Every toss unit but the zealot and immortal gets half of its health from shields(zealots and immortal shields are half their health). That means that a few well placed emps will effectively HALF the health of the entire toss force. In a large battle it becomes huge. Also, since the sentries are hit, there are less guardian shields and ff make it hard to zone a MMM ball. Now where does this mean it does more damage than storm. Well storm does 80 damage over time, while the emp does 100 damage instantaneously. While units like stalkers only have 80 shields, its still significant and instantaneous. The problem then becomes this. While marines do melt to it because of their low health, under stim the T army is still very mobile, and can move out of the way. Add this to the effectiveness of getting rid of ht energy with the emp makes it hard for the toss force to stay on equal footing with the T player. While not all the time will emp be used, When effectively hit on the toss army in an engagement its pretty much gg at that point.
6. The mobility of the T army to split the toss ball with drops makes it hard to handle engagements with them. While it could happen with toss, the need to keep the robo making immortals or colossus from the robo make is hard to make effective drops, and the fact that the warp prism also doesn't heal its army, making it an ineffective unit over other things from a robo.
This may seem like a lot of whining and one sided argumentation from a toss user, but this is what I feel the issues in PvT are. Now I'm sure many of you T users have arguments against these points, but I feel the toss overall needs more apm and less fuckups to stay alive in the game. The key for the T player is to make early-midgame timing pushes, and never to let those colossus max and the ht to get out. Its extremely hard to bet the timing pushes unless they are scouted perfectly and effectively, which is hard.
On the other hand, even if the Toss player gets the jump, the best they can do is invest a lot of forcefield energy to kill about 1/2 of the Terran ball while the other half retreats and reinforces.
TvZ seems pretty balanced now, but TvP needs some work.
I have played with all races, as I am sure a bunch of others have - I really don't see a difference other than personal preference. Me, I like the steel-forging Terran rather than the mutating Zerg or almighty and spiritual Protoss. Everyone is different. As far as someone getting angry and throwing insults your way, they are just a sore loser. I lose almost all my matches, and I still LOVE this fucking game.
Who cares, just play whatever race you want, and ignore the people that whine about it. Why should you let the people who cry about Terran ruin your fun? Those type of people will always have something to cry about. If it's not Terrans, it'll be something else. That's just how they are. Ignore them...
Terran require the most micro? Are you serious? Terran can have their entire army on like 2 control groups. A typical zerg army will probably use 4 or even 5 control groups (something like lings, blings, mutas, infestor, etc). Protoss by far require the most micro though, as a unit like the colossus will die in a second if somebody has bad control. Then you have blink micro, forcefields, etc. Running in and hitting "t" to stim and them moving back and stopping every second isnt really that hard.
Currently I feel Protoss are really weak, especially against terran. I find their late game is terrible, especially against terran, because a medivac drop can wipe out nexuses way too easily, while terrans have PFs to protect their other expansions (which are really really hard to kill). It doesnt matter how good psi storms are, the fact is that if youre 3 bases behind terran as protoss, youre going to lose. Protoss armies are extremely slow, and covering more than 2 bases can be extremely difficult, unlike zerg who are extremely speedy and can at least kill drops off. Protoss are pretty much forced to put down 10 cannons to defend a base (which is like a 1500 investment, which the terran can get 30 marines for).
I feel really bad for protoss. Look how underrepresented they are in the GSL this season. Terran have had 3/4 semifinals for both seasons so far. And thats even after theyve been nerfed to hell.
" Terran require the most micro? Are you serious? Terran can have their entire army on like 2 control groups. A typical zerg army will probably use 4 or even 5 control groups (something like lings, blings, mutas, infestor, etc). Protoss by far require the most micro though, as a unit like the colossus will die in a second if somebody has bad control. Then you have blink micro, forcefields, etc. Running in and hitting "t" to stim and them moving back and stopping every second isnt really that hard. Currently I feel Protoss are really weak, especially against terran. I find their late game is terrible, especially against terran, because a medivac drop can wipe out nexuses way too easily, while terrans have PFs to protect their other expansions (which are really really hard to kill). It doesnt matter how good psi storms are, the fact is that if youre 3 bases behind terran as protoss, youre going to lose. "If you're three bases behind anyone as ANYONE you're gonna lose.
This thread seems to be a "Let's all rally at how shit the protoss are"
@tankintheair i agree with every single one of your points, great post. Protoss air is pretty terrible, to the point where as zerg i dont bother getting anti air when i play protoss. If they have a ton of phoenixes to try and kill my overlords, chances are that their ground army is garbage to i just go crush them right there. Void rays are so easy to kill with even queens, and if someone gets carriers, huge props to them because theyre pretty useless in sc2.
Protoss really need a new unit. I bet theyre praying for one when the next expansion comes out. Although the ability to warp in immortals would be pretty sweet :D
I can't really say much about balancing and whatnot, but I feel that players need to put on pressure onto the other enemy instead of waiting for a deathball of units to finish them off.
Though I do agree that Terrans don't really need a whole lot of microing. With MMM all I ever do is run back with stims and attack. Rinse and repeat. That's really how I roll, since I suck at micro but I can become a production god if the enemy lets me build 8-10 barracks when he's too busy teching or turtling up.
What's with the Protoss nerfs anyways, weren't people saying that they were OP before the patch hit?
I think the main reason you don't see carriers in late game is because most builds avoid the Stargate like the plague since the units are "eh" at best.
" @Cataphract1014: You also don't see them because marines have the highest dps in the game for the cost and any terran worth their salt will make them a vital part of their army. "Marines were great vs Carriers back in Brood War too. Only difference now is that Storm's size is tiny and marines are no longer obsolete vP.
gonna go ahead and say the game is pretty balanced and whatever issues people are having now will change as the game deveolpes
" Why all the hate? It seems like everytime I win against a Zerg player, I get a "If only Terran required skill." or a "Terran can suck it." Can't we just get along? "MMM is really hard to beat on lower levels, also, people who jump on Teamliquid/listen to Artosis and think Terran is still overpowered when Zergs are dominating at the top level.
Most Zerg harassment, like mutas, can do crazy amount of damage to the mineral line unless you actually scout or scan their base. Same with banelings.
As with Protoss... DTs I guess... But yeah, anyone is smart enough to get some kind of detection.
My goodness -- I might have to start posting in a large essay soon. Alright, let's start with TvZ I suppose.
TvZ
Terran vs Zerg right now is somewhat balanced, with big factors being map choice now, which is a good thing, because it's sort of a controllable variable, unit stats aren't. If a Zerg gets a favorable map, they'll have a greater chance of winning, likewise for Terran. Scrap Station is a fucking hard map for Terran to win on, and while I agree there are probably more Terran/Toss favored maps than there are Zerg in the ladder pool right now, TvZ is still at a point where a player of better skill should win, if he makes no mistakes. The rising trend in Zerg BOs have been the standard Muta/Bane/Ling, Roach/Infestor, or a mixture or both. From there, one will tech to Broodlords, and the other to Ultralisks. Funnily enough, the best way to deal with this is usually opening 1/2 rax FE. They both have variations and different outcomes but the main hope is to see a 2rax timing as you set up your natural. There the first encounter will essentially dictate the game, and unless the Zerg doesn't have map control, which is absurd in its own right, he'll be able to produce something to defend, whether it be more speedlings, banelings or Roaches, at that point. Rarely have I been in a position where I reach the zerg's base and he literally has nothing. Instead of even pushing, I've gotten used to simply poking the Xel'Naga towers to pressure Zerg into making drones, because that's the only real 'damage' you can deal at that point. You don't know if he has roaches, or only speedlings, so you have to mix in your marine force with marauders, or else if he does have roaches, you'll lose.
Now, this isn't really a huge problem, unless the terran makes a mistake, he'll come out relatively ahead, possibly snipe a queen or an ovie and force lings/production, you're technically really solid going into the mid-game. Now, here's the real problem -- I find mutalisks to be the bane of my existence. I've lost so many games where I'll be mid-game baneling busted and around 4 or 5 mutas come with it. If I mismicro my marines and don't split them, I'm dead. I literally can't produce enough marines to take out 5 mutalisks. I'm haven't really gotten a solid strat against baneling busts, especially economic ones. I suppose I might start dropping bunkers the second I see banelings during my timing push, but that's another story I suppose.
Other than that however, I find TvZ decent. It just seems there are these really weird timing windows for both races; like for Zerg, if the Zerg gets pushes during the saturation of his second base, he couldlose. If Terran gets pushed during the buildup to his 3rd base, he could lose. I suppose that's part of the game though, learning timings.
TvP
Ah, Terran vs Protoss. I thought I had a really solid feel for this match-up, until recently where I lost 5 TvPs in a row, it's really difficult. I don't understand how Toss are losing to early pushes -- Sentries are there for a reason. Forcefields are amazing, and really, you don't have to place them fantastically precise, unless you're on a ramp. If you spread your forces into a natural concave and dont let them ball up, when you engage you can split a terran's forces with 3 easy FFs. That's only 3 sentries, maybe 2 if you place them well. I'm not saying you need a large sentry count, I know that Toss need their gas, and if you have a couple of sentries, you can hold off a ton of pushes. Fact remains that it's extremely difficult for Terran to beat a Toss when it transitions into late game. We have to do heavy eco damage when we transition into mid-game or else we'll do really badly. You can say EMP deals 100 damage instantaneously but you have to account for the fact that EMP has a short range. There are many a time where I try to EMP before battle and the collosi just shoot a beam of death into my bio ball and instantly wipe out 20 supply of units. The Collosi vs MMM match-up is really delicate because of the fact that overproducing Vikings can be detrimental. It's not as if I can happily make 20 vikings and still win if you have no Collosi. If I overproduce, you'll have a greater ground force and just wipe the floor with my ground force.
I've had a few games where the Toss rushes storm, and that's even more devastating to my timing pushes. I've gotten used to the fact that I have to get a ghost before I push, because the Sentry/HT combo is so deadly that I'll force myself to get a ghost maybe before expanding. I find TvP much more chaotic than TvZ at this point and I really though I'd gotten used to this match-up. I've started throwing some PainUser TvP strats in there with Thors and Banshees with people saying "250mm Strike Cannon so imba", but it's really quite difficult because it's almost as if the Thor becomes another caster and have to micro Ghosts, Ravens, Banshees and Thors as well as stutter stepping your bio ball is relatively difficult.
I wish I was more articulate, because there is a ton of things I want to say, but I can't really express them through this essay, :<
" @OldMouse: Sore losers will always have an excuse. "This.
I play Zerg and Protoss, I can't play Terran because I've never tried, but my friend does, and he says it's not really as easy as it looks, the thing is Marines are just really strong for their net worth and build time in comparison to most other troops. It's 2 Zerglings per single marine built (both in time and cost) and it's 2 Marines or 4 Zerglings to every Zealot made. Terran is a good middle APM/Speed build, Protoss is a high APM build in the start, basically draining all resource off the bat to build something up fast enough to defend yourself, but all build times are hella slow, Zerg is all about high APM and mass units since they're all cheaper and have fast build times, with Zerg you gotta get a high APM with decent knowledge of what you're up against, basically a lot of Micromanagement. Terran to most people is mass Marine or Marauder builds that just are mass units on whatever they have, be it strategy builds or another mass unit build, which in bronze league is the most common and referred to usually as "cheese tactic" so most people who play against a Terran encounter Cheese tactics and blame the loss as such.
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