The weirdest thing about Smash for me is the characters that are grandfathered into the series at this point, but are neither in it to promote a recent game Nintendo thinks was good work (Little Mac, Shulk) nor a series Nintendo is actively still developing (Mario, Link, etc.).

But they continue to include Ness, which seems fucking insane given that Nintendo couldn't be bothered to risk localizing Mother 3, and it took them damn near a decade to put Earthbound on any kind of Virtual Console, and the overall familiarity your average gamer has with Earthbound is probably relatively low. Captain Falcon continues to be included even though F-Zero is abandonware as a series at this point. Ditto for Fox and Falco.

I think the historical characters like Game & Watch at least make sense as a way to educate people about the history of Nintendo if they read a little bit into his character trophy, and I'm fine with them not making more Game & Watch games because those ones for the GBC/GBA/DS were always terrible because that's just not very interesting gameplay in this day and age.

But Ness is my favorite character from the original Smash Bros. What have you got against Ness?

Mega Man's a pretty good example I suppose. He seems to primarily exist more so to guest star in other games than to have any of his own.

I think they are included purely because at this point I think that they think that the fan base expects it. You do however have a point. Makes no sense for many reasons to keep including some of these characters.

In the case of Ness I think it might be safe to say more people know of him from Smash then from the Mother games.

Because the Smash Bros. series is basically fan service built around a decent game? The dog from Duck Hunt is a playable character now. They're playing off of nostalgia, not trying to build hype for their next big release.

Not really sure what your question is, to be honest.

In Europe especially. Earthbound coming to Wii U's Virtual Console was quite literally the first ever release that game saw over here.

The Fire Emblem characters and Pit are the only examples where including them in a Smash game generated interest in a new game that actually came to be.

If Smash Bros was concerned at all with its relevancy in 2014 it would not be releasing.

@bisonhero: I think you misunderstand what Smash Brothers is: it's not a promotional tool for Nintendo's hot new releases, it's a "fun" interactive museum where Nintendo fans go and play with the characters they remember from their childhood. That it has become popular enough to be used as a promotional vehicle is kind of besides the point.

Which is unfortunately in stark contrast to PlayStation All-Stars =/ Metal Gear Rising Raiden? Ninja Theory Dante???.. Like, wot. /sigh Such wasted potential.

I think it's a cheap, effective way to maintain some amount of brand recognition for when Nintendo finally does get around to releasing new titles in the Starfox, Metroid, F-Zero, etc. franchises. Smash brothers will serve as a touchstone in a way--"The new Earthbound game? Yeah, you know that guy Ness from Smash? That's where he's from". It's not much, but it's still easier than starting from scratch, and on top of that, it pleases fans.

@demoskinos said:

I guess I'm asking at this point because I'm curious how many 17-year-olds might somehow play this new Smash Bros., but have never even seen a Star Fox game. It just seems crazy.

Also, their revivals of primarily-NES-series like putting in Ice Climbers and Pit just seem like really random pulls. I didn't know anybody who remembered Ice Climbers, but whatever, I guess it was a clever character. Pit is just super rando, and I guess his inclusion in Brawl led to the creation of Kid Icarus Uprising because suddenly a bunch of 12-year-olds were just constantly asking Nintendo to make a Kid Icarus game, as if they have any idea what the fuck that even means. At least they made something totally new in Uprising, because those earlier 2 Kid Icarus games for the NES and Game Boy are TERRIBLE.

Shulk? Even if he's not in it, a new Xenoblade game is coming so having him in is a reminder that that franchise is continuing with a new game sooner than later.

Characters aren't in these games to promote other Nintendo properties, they're in there because the people making the games think those characters fun to play. Do you really think Captain Falcon shouldn't be in there because it's been eleven years since F-Zero GX? Well, I could not disagree with you more, because Captain Falcon is, and always has been, one of the best characters in those games. Removing him just because there hasn't been a recent F-Zero game sounds absolutely absurd!

@mooseymcman said:

I guess I want Smash Bros. to be a contract where if Nintendo is going to have the nerve to keep including Captain Falcon (who is great) and Fox in Smash Bros., they have to actually get out there and make an F-Zero or Star Fox game. I guess it bums me out when they're just coasting on the nostalgia of perfectly good characters they aren't even making games for. No F-Zero or Star Fox game of any sort came out between Brawl and Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U.

I don't want them to remove Captain Falcon if his series is inactive, but it's just sad how long they've coasted without actually taking another crack at F-Zero. The whole thing just feels disingenuous, where they say "Here are these characters you like, that we're not making games for, but hey, you can have 'em in Smash I guess".

@bisonhero: I agree completely about how there needs to be a new F-Zero game. And to be fair to Nintendo, they have said that they are making a Star Fox game for Wii U.

I find your attitude troubling. It's okay to represent the NES's forgotten games but not those of the SNES and N64?

Are you suggesting you'd prefer they made roster decisions based on what games they want to promote (or other considerations external to the game itself)? It's a good thing that Sakurai can basically do whatever he wants (though it would have been awesome to get Bayonetta in this game).

Glad they kept Ness since he's pretty unique in the roster (and got rid of Lucas). I'm not sure what you're trying to say re F-Zero; seems to me the fact that Falcon isn't in his own games makes his inclusion in Smash a good thing (esp. for his fans). Not to mention the Falcon character was pretty much reinvented for Smash anyway.

As for Starfox, Miyamoto is apparently working on a new one (if E3 stuff is to be believed). And Fox is one of the more popular characters in the game---I can't even imagine the reaction if they had taken him out.

As far as I'm concerned, if they can come up with an interesting moveset / mechanics for a character, that's all the justification needed to include them. I am a bit disappointed with a few that are almost "clones" (e.g. Falco, Lucina, Dark Pit; though more ardent Smash players would probably consider the differences in those characters as more significant than I do, I wish they each had more distinct moves). I'm impressed so far with how balanced all the characters feel given the variety of ways that they all handle.

Pit was a character fans wanted after Melee, so Sakurai put him in Brawl. And it wasn't like some random B-team made Uprising, either, as that was Sakurai's own project. It also happens to be one of the best games on the 3DS and one of the best revivals of an ancient, long abandoned franchise ever. And it wasn't a bunch of twelve-year-olds clamoring for a new Kid Icarus game. It was the twenty and thirty-somethings that played Kid Icarus as kids and wanted to see the franchise make a comeback.

I really don't think "coasting on the nostalgia" is an accurate description of what is happening when Fox or Falcon are included in Smash Bros. The experience you get with Fox in Smash Bros is pretty much completely divorced from how you interact with that character in the Star Fox series (even more so for Falcon IMO). IOW what's exciting about seeing that Fox is in this game is that I remember how fun he was to play as in the previous Smash Bros; nobody is going to buy this game because they liked StarFox and see that Fox is in this. That kind of thing may have been a draw for the first Smash, but the series is definitely independently popular now.

Yes it sucks that we haven't had a recent FZero or Star Fox, but that has nothing to do with Smash. You do realize that there are different studios / teams involved in making these games? Also, Nintendo as a whole is in a pretty weird place and has been for a while now; I'm sure if they were doing better they could put more resources towards more of their franchises (not saying they're necessarily making the right decisions) but they really are trying to figure out how to survive.

What the hell is "F-zero"? I thought Captain Falcon was a Smash Brothers character.

If only there were a website with a huge database of video games where you could find this information.

As far as Star Fox specifically is concerned, Nintendo already said that they were working on a new Star Fox game at the last E3. But it's also true that the development of that game is completely divorced from Fox and Falco being in Smash Bros.

neither here nor there, but what happened to Miyamoto's quasi-retirement to work on smaller games? Maybe that's still happening but it seems like he's still very much involved in Ninty proper.

Falco and Captain Falcon are well liked characters in the Smash community. The popularity they garner from this series eclipses the original games they were originally in.

@ripelivejam: I'm guessing that after the current batch of games he's working on (Star Fox, Zelda, Guard, Giant Robot) he's done.

They'll still bring him out to E3 and put his name on things but I doubt he'll be actually involved in much.

@corevi said:

I wish Nintendo (and Japan in general?) would have a new generation of rock star game designers that just blow the lid off of everything. I guess culturally they're big on deferring to the most respected game designers in the business, so no one in Nintendo feels comfortable claiming they'd know game design better than Miyamoto or Aonuma or whoever, but it bums me out that while we're seeing Kickstarters projects and other side projects from Inafune, Matsuno, Sakaguchi, etc., I don't see anyone really filling those roles once those guys retire.

@bisonhero: Miyamoto has expressed a desire to get younger designers in the company to step up more.

I..uh..expected more. So you don't like some of the characters in the game?

Neither do I, but so what?

I mean, if there was such a thing as a new Nintendo IP it would be nice to include chatacters from it.

...Wonderful 101...

@corevi said:

I mean, yeah, that would've been solid.

They are, at the very least, including Wonder Red as a trophy in the Wii U version. But Smash Bros. and Wonderful 101 were in development at the same time, and the only character that has ever been explicitly included as a means to promote a game that hadn't yet been released was Roy. Melee predated the release of Fire Emblem 6.

@hailinel: Considering how it sold they probably should have done that.

Isn't a new Star Fox game in the works though?

If it got them in the Wii U version I'd be okay with a new Ice Climbers game.

It's a party fighting game. They aren't concerned with how relevant each character is to gaming, and they shouldn't be.

"Wouldn't it be cool if ___ and ___ fought?"

That's what Smash Bros. is.

Wouldn't have mattered at this point since Smash Bros. came out over a year after Wonderful 101.

As someone who thinks that Rising Raiden and new Dante better than their old counterparts, I'm totally with you. Just didn't make sense, since neither of those incarnation are unique to Sony platforms. What a fart of a game, roster-wise.

That's not really the point of Smash Brothers anymore, if it ever was. The point isn't to promote other games, it has become a franchise of it's own at this point. Fans of the series would be livid if they removed characters like Ness and Falcon, they're part of the pantheon of Smash characters now as much as they were ever a part of their own games.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that most of Captain Falcon and Ness's name recognition comes from Smash and not their own games these days.

And, even if they were going to try to promote new material, who would they put in? Nintendo hasn't had new IP since fucking Pikmin. Who are you expecting them to put in and promote?

I got that game for free on PS+ and maaaaan does that game have a roster that just screams "Marketing Department". Then you throw in the part where some of the more obvious stalwarts of the PS1 era (I appreciate the deep cuts that are Parappa and Sir Daniel, but neither of those guys are Crash or Spyro) are not represented and the game really does live up to the cheap cash-in label people threw at it before release. Why are there two versions of Cole? Could you literally not think of anyone else to include, Sony?

While Captain Falcon and Ness may have been included in the N64 Smash because F-Zero X and Mother 64 were in development at the time, it's pretty obvious that isn't Nintendo's main aim with the roster of these games, otherwise we'd all be raving about how terrible that new Ice Climbers for the Gamecube was. Then again, Roy was in Melee to promote the 6th Fire Emblem game (which isn't a great Fire Emblem game) and Pit's inclusion in Brawl clearly had something to do with Kid Icarus Uprising being made, so it's also not out of the question.

In summary: Nintendo does what Nintendo does and no they will never make another F-Zero game because you people don't want it hard enough.

@arbitrarywater: Sony doesn't own Crash or Spyro though.

You don't seem to know much about Smash Brothers, do you? It's basically the same argument Jeff made during the quicklook. This game is for fans of smash brothers now, not for the new comer. If you don't get why Captain Falcon is in the game, then you really don't know much about it. Sorry. Smash Brothers was never and still isn't made to promote other games. It's a deep and satisfying fighting game that not many people put the effort to learn properly.

They don't own half the characters on that game's roster, but that doesn't make those particular omissions any less obvious or damning. Though, to be fair, the roster is only one part of the problems I have with Playstation All-Stars. Like the part where I don't think it plays very well.

PlayStation All-Stars was a game where the development team openly and shamelessly tried to copy what Smash Bros. does, and still somehow managed to fail at exactly that.

Of course, it doesn't help that artwork of some better, unused character choices for the game ended up leaking at one point. They apparently considered including Dart from Legend of Dragoon and decided against it. Now that would have been a fantastic Smash Bros.-style choice, if the game weren't obsessed with marketing the new Dante and Big Daddy.

Why would Mother 3 matter for Ness's recognition any more than any other game? Ness isn't in Mother 3. If anything, it makes sense for Nintendo to remove Lucas from Smash if they are not localizing Mother 3.

Also, remember that this game is developed by Nintendo of Japan. They don't give two fucks about brand recognition in America or Europe.

@hailinel: Dude from Legend of Dragoon is the exact kind of deep cut that roster could've used in a game that only gets the most obvious characters from the PS2 and PS3 eras. I'm not going to harp on this too much, because I'm sure a lot of the development of that game was victim to outside influences (be it mandates from the marketing department or Square not allowing them to put Cloud in the game), but at some point I think PS All-Stars has trouble justifying its own existence.

Actually, it's not so much abandoned franchises. Mario reminds me of Nina Williams from Tekken series still doing these PS1 moves set.

@arbitrarywater: @the_nubster: The worst part is how the actual MGRising and DmC games weren't even released yet. Like, those characters in particular literally existed as soulless marketing material =/ The two Coles thing I'm not too miffed about, given how SSB has two Links, two Marios, and innumerable other clone characters that are largely the same beyond some minor differences here and there just like the Coles. I think the reason they stand out as much is because of course the roster overall is pretty crummy.

That they tried to copy Smash wasn't the problem -- in fact I'd say it was their desperation at attempting to differentiate it that made the game worse. The gameplay of SSB is brilliant, and I would have loved to see what is essentially SSBs simply with a Sony coating. Oh well, that certainly won't be happening anytime soon now, if ever.

Because for every one person like the OP that says they should scale back the useless characters, 200 other people would riot that the roster is too small. Plus, it doesn't hurt anything to include them.