I've been a fan of smash brothers since the original and enjoy the game immensely but something that has thoroughly confused me for years now is why the smash community (professional players, tournament players, and their respective communities) are so unbelievable toxic to new players, casual players, and anyone who doesn't like playing the game the "professional way" (Final destination, no items, yada yada yada).

I've seen communities hate on others like fighting game players and their less than stellar views on women, the level of hatred thrown at new players in league of legends, and the general level of discourse on Xbox live are among the worst humanity has to offer and somehow at least personally I feel that as smash is really a game marketed for Nintendo's general audience that it just makes what they do even worse.

Understand I'm not shitting on those who like to play the game competitively its more on how the most vocal among them act towards those who like to play the game as it was intended.

I just really don't even get the whole taking Smash so seriously at all?

Do you mean Smash in particular, or any fighting game? Smash is a really deep, competitive fighting game in addition to being a fun party game and improving at it is very rewarding.

I do agree that the Smash community has always come off as somewhat insular and unwelcoming. I just think that is a result of it being a younger community than, for example, the Street Fighter community, who was pretty much the same way at one point but is now a lot more open and less confrontational. With time the Smash community will follow the same path, hopefully.

Maybe they have a bit of a complex regarding the way their game still has its legitimacy as a "proper fighting game" brought in to question by some people.

One time I had a "conversation" with a guy who was really into Smash Bros. that ended with him calling Brawl "bullshit" because it was "unbalanced" and at that point I made it a point to never talk about Smash Bros. with anyone really into that series ever again. He didn't seem to realize that it's possible to like a game even though it's not perfectly balanced.

So no, I don't know why the community is that way. I love the games, and have had hundreds of hours of fun with them, but I don't know.

Why is the community for [insert almost any game name here] so toxic?

to be fair sonic has a shitty ass fanbase but it's not because it's toxic necessarily.

Insecurity

I believe it's called "the manchild effect."

@haruko: " I just really don't even get the whole taking Smash so seriously at all?" I'd think most ppl ask that question in a condescending tone, in video gaming in general, but esp. to Smash players because of the party game aspect. If playing Smash competitively was my passion, I'd be super insular too, until you showed you some genuine interest with your question. It'd hard not to be defensive and cautious, and eventually come off as elitist even. Still, a more inviting scene for any game is always welcome.

I think it has to do with the origins of the game being a fun brawler game meant more to pit divergent characters in colorful fights. Lets face it, the game has grown in the complex fighting game department, but the main reason for including characters like Mr Game & Watch and R.O.B. was for novelty issues... Many people (particularly those that have dedicated time and effort to get real deep in the systems) take offense on those inclusions, even with the designers, and in people pointing out that it shows the real origins of the series. For them, having fun is just not good enough...

It is not alone in that, and its not the most toxic community I have seen. I still remember shamefully the amount of toxicity the community of Dragon Ball Budokai had for people that wanted to put aside sprite sheets and just have fun throwing energy balls at their friends.

I generally only ever see casual players shit on competitive players, very rarely the other way around. Seriously, link me to a discussion where competitive players get mad at casuals for not just playing 1 on 1 or with no items. Even on just this site I don't think I've ever seen casual play bashed, whereas any time anybody even hints that they don't play with items on all the time you'll have several people getting all defensive and calling them freaks for not "playing right". The whole "tourneyfags hate casuals" thing is completely blown out of proportion, it does happen but it's used as a reason to bash the competitive fanbase way more often than competitive players actually complain about the other side.

Basically. Pretty much everyone, even Nintendo, is telling them to stop taking something they care deeply about seriously. It's understandable that they would get a little hostile.

@taku128: I can't link you to conversations that don't take place on the internet. From my personal experience, the competitive Smash players I've encountered are immature, demanding, and not fun to play. They become indignant at the prospect of playing the game in a manner that doesn't perfectly align with competition.

Why should we care about a bunch of people taking a fun explosive game and turning it into street fighter? I've played a fair amount of brawl with friends and we did the final destination/no items thing and it was great fun. That doesn't mean we can't also appreciate the dumb chaos of random maps full of items.

The thing we didn't do is play only with top tier characters and memorize optimal juggle combos. Seriously, playing smash brothers at a high level just seems boring as fuck with hardly no special attacks and nothing but super fast ''elegant'' combos.

I blame people like this for the inclusion of Marth in the next smash brother instead of Ike, a much more varied, explosive and interesting character.

@mooseymcman: Well, to be fair the reason most smash players don't like brawl is that there was an added "trip" mechanic where characters while running could just randomly trip. That is a huge deal in a game that comes down to quick precise reactions like smash does.

In some ways you answered your own question, by being incredulous that people would want to take Smash seriously. They're just like a lot of other fervent fighting game or moba communities, but with the added spice of people dismissing their passion, and being the butt of a lot of jokes, which keeps them perpetually defensive.

Not to defend them, since there's really no valid excuse for being insufferable and mean towards others. They've gotta chill out, and probably will eventually. In the meantime, the rest of us dirty casuals can at least not poke the hornet's nest, and simply understand that they enjoy playing in a way we'll never find super entertaining ourselves.

I guess I see where you're coming from, but Marth is there because he's the face of the Fire Emblem series (and popular all the way down to casual Smash fans), not because of tournament politics. Besides, Sakurai has historically been pretty dismissive of the competitive scene, so I don't think he's making character choices based on them.

Also, I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a second Fire Emblem character in the final roster. If not Ike, then likely Chrom, who could easily inherit similar traits.

I guess I wonder what you mean by toxic? Is it being aggressively cruel or acting like the worst of xbox live? Or is it strictly wanting to play the game in the "competitive way" and not really accepting "fun mode"

Imagine you went down to your local basketball court with 9 other people. They all said "lets play a pickup basketball game" and you said "I'm really more causal, I'm just going to run around and shoot the ball at the basket over and over again." Could you really gel those two attitudes together and make it work? Them trying to play basketball and you just playing with a basketball?

This isn't really a good metaphor, but the point I'm trying to make is that some people want to play a competitive game, and some people just want to mess around and have a bit of fun. They really shouldn't and don't want to be mixed. So don't, and hopefully then we can cut down on the "This scrub doesn't even play the game right" and "these manchilds are so toxic."

I don't get it either, but why is any online community toxic? Insecurity'd be my guess.

And yes, I think the attitude of some casual players towards the competitive players is pretty silly too, talking as though playing at a high level and actually having fun are mutually exclusive. I mean, there are even some decent examples of that in this thread.

@demoskinos: He didn't mention anything about tripping, all he said was that it was unbalanced, and his tone made it pretty clear to me that he didn't give the game a fair chance, or accept the fact that there are people that like it despite its issues.

Either way, I just like the games (all of them) for the chaos, so I have no problems with random tripping.

Same reason why call of duty has a shit community. Its a super popular game that attracts a broad variety of people to it. Some of those people are ass holes, some of them aren't. Some of them play to have mindless fun with friends, some play because they want to compete professionally.

NO ITEMS. FOX ONLY. FINAL DESTINATION.

That joke has been around for as long as I've been on the internet.... and it's still half-true. Sometimes they'll play as Falco instead.

Oh yeah haha. I wouldn't say it if it didn't still hold some validity. I think it's less fun to play like that.

*Blank* The Hedgehog, aka why DeviantArt is a frightening place!

They've said there won't be ''clone'' characters this time around so I wouldn't hold my breath.

When i worked in QA there was this small group of crazies that did nothing but play "Melee" during lunch for years. They were real serious about it and "Brawl" should not be mentioned in that room. They would of course only ever play that super boring training stage or whatever, the one that's only a flat platform. These were dark times.

Better yet, search "GFW Radio Sonic" on Youtube. You'll never be able to look at Sonic fans the same way again.

In that guy's defense, when you have to ban non-boss characters, your game is pretty much fucked. It's what killed SCIV.

I just have SO LITTLE interest in things like balance that, well, I don't care. I don't play these games competitively, I just mess around with friends, and none of us know the ways in which these characters are unbalanced, so we just mess around and have fun.

I remember liking Smash Bros. on the N64 and Gamecube. Those were good, fun games. Absolutely awesome to play with friends.

Problems always arose when that one motherfucker who insisted on making it competitive would bitch about how unfair ___ or how cheap ___ was. My guess is people like him ruined it for the rest of us.

Well first i would say the community is split of people who play it for fun and those who treat it like a fighting game. In the professional fighting mindset i feel it breeds that dog eat dog behavior that often comes off as jerkish or childish.

Maybe because a good chunk of them have a chip on their shoulders proving smash is a legit competitive thing. I can play smash both ways, it's fun to just test your skills with no items but its also fun to just have fun and let the craziness happen.

@haruko: I'm not a professionally competitive Smash player, but a buddy of mine and I play a modded version of Brawl (Project M, it's free and doesn't damage your Wii at all) with each other and play it in a fairly competitive way. I also do not understand why someone would begrudge others who don't play it a certain way. We simply don't play with items simply because it seems to make it a bit too random for us, a bit too Mario Kart-y, if you will, but I completely understand the fun of it. One of the games within Smash we play every now and again is Pokemon battle, where we play with nothing but Pokeballs on high and are not allowed to throw punches. Whatever you enjoy, enjoy it and don't rag on people for playing a game "the wrong way" if they enjoy it is what I try to live by.

Btw, I really wish Mario Kart had an option to disable (certain) items and make it a bit more competitive. Also, shouldn't every game be like Smash Bros in the end? Enough Mario Kart, Mario Golf, Mario Party, let's have Nintendo Kart where Link and Samus and Pikachu and Kirby drive around on karts and such. I can dream...

Ike's too drastically different to be called a clone. Heck, he's even less of a clone of Marth than Luigi is a clone of Mario (or Toon Link and Link-Link), so I think we're safe there.

But yeah, who knows what'll happen, so best not to get hopes up about anything in particular.

From what I've seen the competitive players never even interact with casual players because of the enormous skill difference. I would think the toxic players are casual people who want to turn off items because they are losing. I don't play Smash though so maybe they're all terrible people.

I have not seen any community based around a video game not be a total shit show. Some are not as bad as others, but they are all full of dip shits that drown out anyone that's a decent human being.

@mechanical_ape: Ugh... I knew it would be weird but that just made me sad to hear about the people that married Sonic and company. Reminds me of the woman who gave her new born daughters' first name Yujinaka. Not a middle name or a nickname, but her first name.

@mooseymcman: Right, but that is the difference between casual and tournament level play. Randomness is very much frowned upon in a competitive setting. Now, who knows the guy you talked to could just have been talking shit without even knowing what he was talking about and obviously you're not into competitive play but to competitive players even the smallest things can be deal breakers.

Because they cant face the fact that their game is sooooooo boring to watch in "competitive mode" and people not liking their game in that mode.

So on a level of 1 to 10 how upset will people be when Melee gets the second highest ratings on twitch at EVO this year?

It's because if you play SSB games professionally you're doing it wrong, and they know it, but they still stick to it. They get angry at people who seem to realize it.

Seriously, go play some other fighting game or games like Counter-Strike if you want to play professionally. It's still sad but at least you're doing it right.

That entirely depends on whether or not that number one slot is going to Divekick.

Because, the internet?

You know, not to jump on the OP because they did ask nicely, but does anyone else think that claiming an entire community is terrible is a dick thing to do? Even if it's true, it just seems wrong to me to openly insult a community and then also think that you're not being a dick too. Sometimes there's no other option (can't think of any examples but people seem to love bashing the Xbox Live community) but a lot of the time I think people mistake passion for being an asshole.

Or they think that their limited experience is an accurate example of everyones experience.

I think most people exaggerate how bad the gaming community at large is. I'm not saying it's all good but any congregation of people is going to have bad eggs. Especially when you take into account just how vast these communities are. Even SSBs community is massive when you think about it in real world terms.

The size of the community is a huge factor in understanding how many numbskulls you're going to be dealing with.

Are you implying theres a chance that Divekick wont get the highest ratings?

@crusader8463: I was a part of a community of people that played fighting games on decent level, SF3rd\SF4\Garou\KoFXII\bazzilion of others, and it was pretty damn welcoming for new people. But I guess that was maybe an anomaly, haven't been interacting with BIG fg communities. But in general the minority of assholes are louder than the majority of decent folk. Sometimes just ignore the loud assholes and stick to the guys that use capital letters just at the start of a sentence.

I never really even understood why take the game so seriously all the way to competetive level. I mean even the people behind the games say that those are not concepted as tournament fighters. Just the wildly different power levels of the characters, some are downright broken and some are just useless, only one arena being viable for tournaments, completely negating several core aspects, like the items and other arenas, just to MAKE the game seem comptetetive. In SSB the OP characters will win against most of the roster, given somewhat equal skill, 90% of the time. The entire franchise is just screaming I'm intended for parties\fun and not serious play. And I think that is partially why the community is that way, they "desperately" try to force upon people that those games are on the level of Street Fighter, Tekken or KoF in all aspects. When you get bunch of new players poking around those guys then they will scoff because they are not playing the game properly, seriously...

@spraynardtatum: It's not bashing its discourse and thats good, but I'll tell you this on every single occasion that I've talked to a "serious" smash player (person who hate brawl) I have seriously had to just end that part of the conversation and never talk about smash again. Trying to bring the fun of playing it normally up with someone who takes it seriously is a wasted effort. While I know fun and competition are not mutually exclusive I've never seen a game with a larger gap between the two is more what I'm saying.

I think a better question is perhaps what causes someone to call a "community" toxic in the first place? I suspect most who do so are ascribing the actions of a few to an entire community, not unlike other stereotypes.

That being said I have no doubt some communities are more toxic than others. Although that kind of relative toxicity has to be incredibly hard to accurately judge. Where does SSB fall in that realm? I don't know, it never struck me as that different from some other FGC sub-communities, other maybe it might skew a little younger. And honestly I don't know of any gaming communities that have a reputation for being a positive bunch, hate to say it.

I wonder what the tipping point is that makes it seem like a whole community is toxic (which is something I doubt to be ever true). 5% of people who are incredibly toxic with 20% looking the other way which enables the behavior? 15/40? 35/65? I really don't know.

I've been keeping track lately of how many jerks I encounter in DOTA 2 and at least so far it's probably really only around 20% or so of players I encounter. And most of those only toss off a few crappy insults. The super toxic I encounter maybe 5% of the time or less. But since very few go out of their way to be fun and friendly and the vast majority are silent, it makes it feel like there is this incredible toxicity. Because if you are going to encounter a comment at all, there is a very high probability that's the kind of comment you'll see.

Does that mean DOTA 2 community is toxic if only 5-20% (if my admittedly very subjective and very inadequate sample size is correct) of the people playing it are?