I saw the spoilers and read clinically on a page they don't really impress me all that much but that's hardly telling of the end result, nothing about any of their previous work would have impact in a void either and I've no real reason to doubt Naughty Dogs ability to make me care about what's going on this story.

Of greater concern is that I'm mostly on the same tilt as a lot of others, some games stand on their own well enough and don't merit sequels and I've always thought The Last of Us was squarely in that category.

As for agendas and all that.. I doubt this part of it has that much of an impact to be honest. Twitter and Reddit or whatever can feel all encompassing because its a cacophonous nightmare but it's hard to gauge how much sway these people actually have or how likely any of them are hold any real convictions either way.

I thought I had a pretty good grasp of the overall story and controversy it's spawned but I'm not even sure what I read was legit as the leaks quickly became a game of telephone regarding who the trans character is, and who you ultimately play as. I've heard at least four different scenarios with the characters and events switched up from randos in chats to prominent content creators on YouTube. It's been really fascinating to see this thing snowball actually.

From what I originally heard, every lightning rod element seemed like a natural fit to that story, that world, and those characters, up until the character shift that supposedly comes with a twist involving Ellie and we're tossed into a MGS2 scenario with someone that may not have earned it and that, including the ending...no matter how justified, is a tale a lot of fans just don't want to see.

The frustration comes from two different sources, those tired of having beloved characters tossed aside like Newt and Hicks being killed off in the opening moments of Alien 3, the original cast of Star Wars...who had nearly everything they accomplished undermined by the trainwreck of a sequel trilogy for a group of terribly underwritten characters, Cyclops getting offed in an cinematic adaptation of Dark Phoenix...a story he played a central role in. Seeing Ellie just starting to live her life, a life she nearly didn't have, and them throwing it all away for another tired revenge tale, is terribly disappointing.

Secondly, and this is coming from from someone that assumes the correct version of the story's characters is... Ellie having a Jewish girlfriend, and the "villain" being female to male transgender... unfairly makes them targets of ire as one becomes the Raiden to Ellie's Snake, and the other doing something...no matter how justified, would make them unforgivable in a lot of people's eyes. It's pretty manipulative. They're not pushing identity politics through the story, they're suckering folks into reacting a negative way to these characters which would cause a shitstorm regardless of their sexual preferences and gender, giving them the all too common bullshit defense of "if you didn't like it, you're a this or that" which is already happening...again regardless of if the criticism being tossed at Druckman and his team is valid or not.

Now with the news Anita Sarkeesian was involved in the project, it almost feels like this was ultimately used as a lighning rod for controversy on a grander scale of further painting a bad picture of gamers as they're potentially sacrificing a portion of their fanbase with this (on paper) incredibly disappointing story just to out the ijits that are so easily tempted by low hanging fruit.

How could they not know this would be the reaction it would get?

@shiftygism: They probably did know, and I'd guess they planned on it. What they didn't plan on is everything being leaked early, and if the rumors are true around the financial situation, losing pretty significant moral ground. I'd say it will get ugly, but I guess it already has.

Is there a way to hide a thread so it doesn't keep appearing at the top? Asking for a friend.

As someone that has now muted specific words on his twitter feed and will keep their collector's edition pre-ordered, I think the backlash is a little extreme. What I personally find more gross is that folks are just carpetbombing spoilers at people that are excited for the game regardless of if they watched the leaks or not.

Do I find it strange that Troy Baker kind of stirred the pot first by saying that this might upset some folks? Yes

Would I think the game is try to be "Woke"? Absolutely not

As for this thread, I would say keep it unlocked but severely watched by mods for anyone that would drop unneeded spoilers.

Great... This thread made me want to seek out the spoilers even though I was doing very well by not thinking about it. Not really sure what this transgender talk stuff is about. Although, isn't one of the actors that plays a male (or transgender?) a transgender person? The Asian character that was in the trailer I thought. Also, totally bummed from the little I read about the story. Not necessarily the story itself, just that I potentially got it spoiled, and now have to think about it and what it means, and how I feel about it. Booooo. The first game was definitely sad, but the second seems even more depressing. I am not a huge fan or viewer of The Walking Dead, but this game may turn some fans off in the same way The Walking Dead did when they showed how Glenn dies.

I'll never seek spoilers out because it really doesn't matter to me where a story goes, i need to see the journey and HOW it gets from A to B to C. Which is only possible if you actually go through the game as it is intended. Any themes i come across along the way is fair game for me as long as i think it suits the story. So yeah, i'm hesitant to even read the messages in this thread, but i don't see why themes of queerness and gender should not be invoked by default. But naturally when you do use these themes, people will be combing over every other word with a magnifying glass and challenge eachother and the writer, so it's quite a big responsibility. But that's no reason to straight up NOT touch these themes if you think you can do it well.

If the question is "what percentage of the games potential audience are bothered by it?" i really couldn't say, all i can do is add my opinions, as others are doing.
The only thing that bothers me about it is that there doesn't seem to be anything better for the characters to be doing during an apocalypse scenario like, i don't know, agriculture, but i haven't played the rest of this potentially 20 hour game to see how it all unfolds so it's probably not as boring as it seems.
I don't care about sexual preferences/gender identification, only when they are shoved in my face, so having everyone in the finale of this game be non standard in some way i can't help but roll my eyes and think, "haha, of course... what are the odds...", but again this is just information removed completely from the rest of the game so i'm sure it's not a big deal because i don't see why it would be.
I also can't separate that it's a fiction written by one or two people, having so many notable characters be gay or trans is unique (remember Bill was gay too), it is distracting even if received well, it becomes THE talking point of the story as it already has done, so naturally i start thinking about what agendas people might be pushing and whether that's good for the story or the franchise.

Naughty Dog and Sony's gonna drive people off to Microsoft with the utter bullshit they're pulling on folks right now flagging YouTube accounts for non-spoiler discussion and the controversy surrounding the game. Disney didn't even sink that low over the lead up to Rise of Skywalker. Any interest I had is dwindling by the moment of how they're handling this situation.

There's a number of red flags in this thread that are a little disappointing to see on this website.

I'm disappointed that the controversy seems more aimed the sexuality and gender identity of the characters than the fact that Naughty Dog isn't properly paying their employees. That should be the focus here, and the studio heads SHOULD have their names dragged through the mud.

@socuteboss:

https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2020/5/1/21244288/the-last-of-us-2-leak-source-sony-ending-ellie-joel

Might want to stop spreading that unsubstantiated rumor at this point.

I haven't read the spoilers but I do think the backlash is always going to be there, as some people just can't handle that type of content yet and the size of it will largely depend on the writing. There is a guy in my office who I talk to about games and movies, relatively young as he's just approaching his 30's, educated, smart - yet he seems to really get riled up whenever LGBT themes come up in popular media. Can't say why exactly, but I'm certain a lot of people like him exist. It is a touchy subject of course, because inclusivity is important, but as mentioned by some people already, it has to be inclusive and also realistic. I can only hope they will tell an emotional story where characters feel organic to it's evolution and flow.

Be angry at their shitty crunch culture instead.

@efesell: I'd say really disappointing, I guess there will always be some but still...

This thread has made me want to buy this game.

I wonder if they've had time to get any erm .... current events into the story. That might be the pull for me.

We're coming at this in 2 different ways. You say "Why would someone be trans during an apocalypse?" And "Why would they put trans into the game?"

I see it as people (or in this case characters) just...are who they are. They have trans char(s) in the game because it's likely that some trans people would survive an apocalyptic event. And the characters aren't choosing to be trans during an apocalypse...they are trans, and it's set in an apocalyptic world. Given the survival of a set # of people, said survivors would be a mix of trans/gay/straight/white/black/christian/atheist/etc. Just a mix of people, like their are now.

@ethanielrain: Excellent explanation. This whole thread pretty much triggered my own thinking, not so much on the info, but on reactions. The world of TLoU is after all pretty much a distillation of Society at large. That is, As I understand the story and such, at this time. Hopefully it's more one bringing their own bias and prejudices into the game, than the story itself setting up intrinsic values of good or evil for say, any sexual orientation, or perception of one's self. Though it can't be helped if themes of conflict, say intolerance, or even perhaps patriarchy (Joel?) creep in. So it is in the real world...

Just my own speculating there. I bought TLoU but did not play it. I just read a lot about it. I was pissed off by how TLoU jumped out as a late contender for best game against Bioshock Infinite, insinuating a 'reason' besides very good gameplay and story. I was frustrated that a Game Journalist I admired said that 'in his circle of friends', The Last of Us was the better game. Obviously it was a matter of a circle of friends.

But my thoughts evolved..

As for being more particular, I won't because I am avoiding spoilers, and think this thread could even be more careful.

My opinions on the story aside, I think there's gonna be this weird moral dimension of ostensibly left-leaning people supporting the product of a brutal crunch culture because anti-LGTB goblins hate it, and that's a real shame.

@jeedyjay: Don't you think though, that for a video game especially, story ideas can be disconnected from crunch? Like, one can support what the story is trying to do with inclusion without supporting the horrible working conditions.

Depends. What if the story calls for something they can't program? Like a big set-piece or sequence.

@jeedyjay:Or the alternative is that nobody supports the game and it gets blamed on the game being too progressive.

@efesell: Disappointing, but not surprising. It's not like these people are new here. There was plenty of hating on Austin for "being too political" by people who wanted the site to hire Colin Moriarty.

This "backlash" itself? It's just incels having too much time on their hands, whereas other people have actual important things to worry about.

thinking emoji

@shindig: fair point. Although I imagine the sexuality or how the character identifies their gender has much of a problem there.

I mean this is all just another version of "I'm all for inclusion but..."

This whole car crash of misinformation, willful ignorance and cherry-picked moral posturing is just wonderful. Keep it up duders!

@retris: GROSS GENERALIZATIONS RUNNIN' WILD!

It sounds like a typical message board discussion.

At the end of the day everyone will have their own inclinations and not every story will resonate with every person, but the story itself has to be good enough to overcome criticism as well. They can come up with the most progressive and inclusive tale of all time but if the writing at the core of those characters is bad then it will be much easier for people to point fingers and say "yah it's obviously bad because XYZ was so-and-so" not because of the writing itself was bad. It may not be fair but your progressive story needs to be twice as good to overcome this bias.

@shiftygism: It's not a gross generalization if it's true.

@humanity: Whoa there, that's getting dangerously close to being sensible and well reasoned. Please don't ruin this for me...

@retris I know right?! No way anybody could lose interest in a game without it having something to do with them being an "incel". At least the rest of us have better things to do, right? Like telling them how they are, in fact, bigots. Hooray for we righteous few!

I feel like this went 'okay' for a while.

@retris: Humanity just saved me from typing much of what I was going to say, but that along with the terrible way Sony and Naughty Dog are handling the situation and criticism of their product regardless of where it's coming from, it's not as black and white as you think. It never is. Narrowmindedly pointing the finger as you did puts you in the same camp of people you think are up in arms.

I was spoiled without wanting to so I just gave up and decided to read all of it but not watch the videos because I still wanted to experience it in the game. After reading the spoilers I had to watch the videos because I couldn't believe how bad the story is and thought people were joking. But, sadly, it all seems to be real. I loved the first game and the DLC. It was one of my favorite games. But after knowing the spoilers and seeing how Naughty Dog is handling this whole situation (and the awful working conditions they've got going on), TLOU2 went from buying day one to "maybe I'll get it on sale some day". And no, I don't have any problems with LGBT representation, I just think the story is really bad and it completely undermines everything the first game accomplished. I can't even think of a way where they could make those story beats work. I wish they could, I really loved the first game and this was the game I was looking forward to the most, but now I'm just too disappointed with all of it, from the game to everything around it.


Also absolutely agree with @jeedyjay, @humanity, and @shiftygism. Very well said!

You know I can understand reading the spoilers and thinking like.. "I'm not a fan of this direction" and that's fine but it's really weird to use them as an automatic "This story is bad."

I think this is why I don't mind spoilers in the first place. Knowing details plucked from a whole and shown out of greater context is often absolutely meaningless.

@shiftygism: It's a game that's not out yet and people are going full Charlie Kelly piecing theories together to try and justify their "totally rational" hatred of the game that, I repeat, is not out yet. That's completely a regular person thing to do.

Also, this is a topic purely about people complaining about the story, so I don't know why you're bringing up the way Sony and Naughty Dog are handling it.

@retris: This thread was an obvious minefield to begin with and should probably be locked, see the first couple posts on the first page. Anyway, the topic is hijacked, because there is no reasonable response to the OP's original question other than something along the lines of obviously we should support inclusive stories that contain LGBT people, those people complaining based purely on finding out that LGBT people are in it are idiots. Hopefully everyone is on that same page, if not, get fucked.

The quality of the storytelling in the leak and the circumstances around it are more interesting to discuss, which to me is like a trash fire, you just kind of have to watch.

Here's the problem: Gamers don't want new shit. What they want is the same shit repackaged in a slightly new format. Remix things here and there, have a new villain, but it's still the same game they played before. Because it's comfortable--It's familiar. And it's safe.

See FF7 REMAKE: a game people are hailing as "subversive and game changing" despite the fact that 90% of that game is essentially the same story as the original FF7.

From what I've seen of the leaks, ignoring the incel nonsense, people's issues with the game stem from spitting in the eyes of people who believed (wrongly) that Joel was the hero of that story and, rather than be another good vs evil morality tale in which Ellie goes after bad guys who killed Joel, the game seems to be focused more on that moral ambiguity and the fact that Ellie and Joel actually weren't good people. The fact that the game has you play as Joel's killer makes that abundantly clear.

I'm not saying that because TLOU2 is trying new things that it's automatically good; there's always the chance that this could be an ambitious trainwreck. What I am saying is that people need to learn to trust storytellers instead of feeling entitled and wanting fanservice or the story to treat certain characters a specific way just because "they like them."

@north6: That's the thing, I don't believe the discussion should be had before a game has come out. Heck, I think the meaningful discussion and critique happens months, even years after the game is out. There is no way to really tell whether the story is well told by just examining vertical slices. None of these seem to be anything except gut reactions, educated guesses and projections.

@retris: Yeah, agreed on the story. Also, after reading the posts on the second page I think someone posted that this was confirmed by sony to be a third party, not an internal leaker, rendering all of the details about the lack of payment to team members null and void as well. That just leaves the OP's original question and the already well reported details around this game being no exception to the realities of game dev today, i.e. crunch, which is nothing new.

@retris: Exactly. Because you can claim that the first TLOU is derivative (and some people would still make that claim) of other zombie films. What makes it work are the details, the performances, how everything comes to gether.

Watching a youtube video is not the same thing. Reading a plot summary is not the same thing.

I mean if you just told me the major beats of the first game I would have told you that ew gross no I don't wanna run around as the worlds worst garbage dad.

@sethmode: The story, sure. There's a product attached to that story, though, and it seems to have been developed at the expense of people making it. I am anticipating (and dreading) the "you have to support this case of worker exploitation, or else the transphobes win" takes.

@retris: It doesn't matter if it's out yet, there was enough leaked for anyone to have an opinion (going in) on what was revealed coming off the heels of the most talked about trashfire in modern entertainment and some folks don't want to get burned again, especially when it's a $60 dollar investment, and with how they've been conditioned to think due to the mismanagment of other properties while hearing the rumors of what's been going on at Naughty Dog.

Speaking of which, until we're given actual details, there's really no reason to put a lot of stock in Sony's apparent findings (just yet) in regards to the identity of the leaker. How in the hell would someone, especially if it wasn't a contractor, get their hands on what they did? Right now I'm treating that as nothing more than (desperate?) PR as they use a third party to unjustly false flag content creators left and right over mere discussion of the topic.

Furthermore please don't sit here and try to backseat moderate when you're tossing around gross assumptions and words like "incel" ...which should be a term that is just as frowned upon as "snowflakes" here on the forum, regardless of how it leans. It doesn't matter what the original topic was, this has been an ongoing situation and the discussion naturally branched. The way Sony and Naughty Dog are handling things are a direct result of how people are reacting to the story. smh

@jeedyjay: you're right, I just also think some moral authority can be had in defending the inclusive nature of the story while also denouncing the working conditions.

Either way, commentary is going to be a bit of a shitshow. Look no further than this thread. And the game hasn't even come out yet!

@efesell: this is what isn't computing for me with some of the arguments being made here. They're taking basically story bullet points and saying "this is the game" when I feel like basically anyone that liked the first game liked it despite its VERY conventional overall story and story bullet points. Maybe, just maybe, we wait until it comes out, play it, and then make our sweeping generalizations?

@sethmode: For a lot of people I'm sure it's just a case of first impressions (with exceptions of course). As for the story beats being treated as the whole experience, well that isn't all that uncommon really. There were plenty of times in the past where even someone like Jeff would say they heard the broad strokes of the story for a game and to paraphrase "if thats true then fuck this game" or something of that sort. When you listen to Waypoint Radio Austin Walker and the gang very often find single narrative points extremely contentious in how they represent the whole. I'm not saying this is good, in fact I actually always found it strange how you can condemn an entire experience because of "a thing" but it's not something that is solely relegated to the grumblings of ignorant forum dwellers.

As someone who does follow games media resonably well but hasnt had social media for over 6 years now..I didnt even know people were outraged about this?... Seems especially crazy to me concerning we all already knew Elly was a lesbian in the first freakin games dlc...were people mad about that too?..

Anyways, I think this is one of those things most normal people dont even think, talk or know about but seems to be a thing because of the handfull of "asshole gamers" complaining about it on social media.

Edit: Btw, I did know a lot of it leaked. Havent seen the leaks. To anyone complaingn the spoilers are unavoidable now:....I dunno im like on the internet all day everyday and havent had a single thing accidentally spoiled to me ever.....it may be worth concidering what websites your visiting if this keeps happening to you...( Gotta be honest though, I did spoil a couple things for myself looking up a walkthrough and accidentally seeing the next step too when I was younger :P....and ok ok I do know now that theres a trans character in last of us 2, big freaking whoop xD, thats like telling me one of the characters has blonde hair.)

@kemuri07: Best post in this entire thread. People want their power fantasies and fan service, and this seems like it'll be anything but. Instead of just making the player feel "cool" and "badass" for doing a bunch of horrible shit it seems like they're actually going to make something that leaves players uncomfortable. Why shouldn't there be room for that in this supposed art form?

Justified or not, Joel ended up as an anti-hero (and that's putting it mildly) and following that up with a predictable "way to go, kill them all and win again!" second game would've been the most boring thing ever. They might fail but at least they tried. That's more than you can say about the vast majority of video game stories out there.

I wasnt a huge fan of TLOU1 but most of this outrage seems dumb.

Why are people even looking at spoilers for a game they were excited for in the first place?? If story details had leaked for a game I was looking forward too I'd be avoiding any mention of it at all.

@scrollcourier: There's more to it than just Joel, and I'm someone who has argued in favor of what should happen to him despite how they've seemingly orchestrated things in the most questionable way imaginable. It's the ending that's gonna have a tough time justifying itself, though hopefully once all the blanks are filled it will do so because right now I can't see how it won't leave a bad taste in many folk's mouths. You don't have to be all fanservice-y with the story, but at least be aware how beloved your characters are and don't leave your audience ever questioning their time spent. There's a reason The Walking Dead lost a sizable portion of its audience after Negan's introduction.