Hey Duders,

Just finished TLOU remastered and wow what an experience. I haven't had a chance to play the DLC yet so no spoilers there please, but what do you think of the main games ending? What do you think it means? I kind of took it as there is no good or bad in the world and we all do what we have to to survive.

What do you guys think? Is that how you saw it?

It means Joel is a piece of shit.

It was shitty of the fireflies to do what they did. Honestly in Joels shows i would have done the same thing. Plus they were in a really shitty run down lab, i dont think it woulda worked.

There was a big long topic about this that is probably still around, but I'll just repeat my thoughts. Joel made the sensible choice. The Fireflies didn't seem to know what the fuck they were doing and so much of their plan relied on heavy "ifs". There was no guarantee what they wanted to do would actually make a cure and even if they did they clearly had no idea and little resources for manufacturing or distributing it. And even if all that worked out he'd still be sacrificing the one person he cares about in the world to save the worthless dregs of humanity.

Basically, Joel made the human choice. Choosing the other option would have just been a bunch of idealistic bullshit.

Joel went wrong there. He saved an infected girl, that could possibly help find the cure to the disease. And Ellie won't ever have a normal life, because she is infected and as such can never interact intimately with anyone, thus never date, marry or have kids. She will live a lonely life from there on. Even Joel didn't contest at the end, when the firefly woman told him Ellie probably would have decided to sacrifice herself. That would probably be her chosen purpose.

But it was a personal choice. And while arguable, it isn't guaranteed the outcome would be better the other way around. Still it would have given her life meaning. Something that she in the end has lost, like Joel said: "You have to find something to live for". For now, Ellie doesn't have a reason to be alive. Joel robbed her of that, still he saved her life. So it is arguable.

Although he murdered a group of people who were trying to ressurect an elected central government made by civilians, and searching for a cure. That makes the decision less arguable.

It's personal, it's selfish, it's Joel's.

There is a ton of discussion on this very subject in a very similar thread... somewhere.

I don't remember any evidence in the game to suggest that she could infect other people. From my memory the game essentially implies the infection is benign.

Joel is clearly an asshole. I never thought that aspect of the ending was all that interesting.

However, Ellie clearly doesn't believe his lies. How will this affect their relationship? Heck, even the last couple minutes when you're Ellie felt awkward as fuck - especially when Joel kept talking about the things they'll do from now on while Ellie just silently listened. I get the feeling that Ellie will continue to stay with him cause he's the only person left in her life who cares for her. But depending on whether or not she can overlook what he did (I don't think she will), she may just shelve those feelings and just continue the relationship like normal, hoping for better days.

And I'm not trying to paint her as someone desperate, it just seems like the thing she would do, considering how afraid she is of dying alone.

All this being said, I wish I liked this game more. Although the story and the characters were fucking fantastic, the gameplay segments were so goddamn boring that I'm hesitant to call it a good "game" (maybe a good X, not sure what that "X" is). The interactive portions of the game were barely functional and never felt rewarding to me. Stealth is, to be fair, a hard genre to execute, but it can be done way, way better. I feel like I could have watched a playthrough on YouTube and enjoyed it just as much, without having to slog through the gameplay segments.

Remember what she said to the canibal guy after she bit him - "Now you're infected."

I thought it was pretty clear she was lying. She only said that because he obviously didn't know that she was immune and would have no reason to believe it would not infect him like normal.

Ellie was Joel's replacement goldfish for his own dead daughter. He couldn't deal with losing her again so he fucked over the entire world, or at least the Americas.

Wasn't she bluffing?

And wasn't the ending complete crap, anyway?

I'd probably sacrifice everyone for a goldfish too. Seriously, fuck that world.

Joel was sympathetic, but ultimately selfish in his decision. Although, there was no guarantee they'd be able to make a cure, it was the only known possibility for humanity's salvation. The possibility existed that humankind could return to it's former state, thus saving so much hardship, but Joel made a decision. Whether or not it was right I can't really say.

She is infected. The parasite grew around her brain, just didn't take over her brain functions. There is no guarantee that an infection caught from her would behave the same way with another person. That's why the surgeon wanted to operate Ellie, to learn more about the abnormal behaviour of her infection.

I didn't like the ending either, especially the ending sections. They were anoying with the enemies spawning.

@jeust: There's no guarantee it would be able to infect others either if it does not function in her like it does others. The specifics of the infection are pretty undefined, so it could go either way, but I felt like the game left a pretty strong impression that her infection was not contagious. I feel like people would have been much more wary around her if there was any chance she could infect them.

Oh so once a discussion happens we cant discuss a subject again? That's kinda, well, dumb...I never understood that whole idea "oh this dead thread where no ones actively talking about something is where you should post instead of starting a new discussion which does NO HARM"

It's a terrible concept really. It's anti-conversation.

Very few people knew she was infected, so there would little reason to be wary. Plus I believe Marlene would have quaranteened her, given the fact that, according to Ellie, she nearly shot her. Plus if she could infect anyone, by the time she was introduced, Marlene would have turned as well as all other people who had contact with her. Joel and Tess took for granted that she was immune, although uncertain of how it worked.

@jeust: It kinda sounds like you're agreeing with me. Like you said, she never infected anyone she came into contact with and Marlene clearly didn't treat her as if she was contagious. Any time someone did find out they quickly calmed down when they found out she was immune, and that operating room should have been much more quarantined if she was contagious. Rumaging around her insides seems a prime way to get infected.

Joel was entirely selfish in his decision, but ultimately I think it was the right choice. Not just for his selfish human reasons, but in other ways as well.

As others have already said the Fireflies really had no idea of what they were doing, they were essentially just going to kill her for the sake of poking at her brain maybe possibly figuring it out. And she wasn't immune so much as she wasn't affected by it the same way as everybody else, the cure they might have developed would likely not be a cure so much as a new strain of the fungus that didn't take over brain function. Their entire plan is riddled with maybes and what ifs. I think this gives Joel justification in the selfishness of his choice, but doesn't make it the "right" choice by itself.

But ignoring that, the Fireflies are ultimately clinging onto the past. The more important reason for why I'd argue Joels was the right choice, even if he doesn't recognize it; is the village Tommy was apart of that they went to go join at the end I think served as proof that humanity had moved on from the disaster. A cure would be lovely sure, but they've adapted and are successfully starting down the road of rebuilding a functioning society without it. The world is still shit to be sure, but it they were proof that there was light at the end of the tunnel and society could and would rise again regardless. Ellie didn't need to be sacrificed for that happen.

Humanity doesn't need a cure anymore.

There are more things than one at work here. Normal infected didn't infect anyone unless, a healthy human being got their blood in contact with infected saliva. The only ones that could infect through air were the dead ones, with spores growing from them.

About the operating room, the surgeon and the team had definitively autopsied infected bodies, and I'm sure the means of infection would have been throughly investigated in twenty years of dealing with the parasite. So they were confident that Ellie wouldn't pose a problem. Plus this is a game and has a good number of inconsistencies and simplifications, like the infected saliva could probably infect a person if it got in the eyes or inside the mouth a healthy human being, but that never seems to be the case with all the close quarters face offs, and the bloaters with their spore bombs apparently couldn't infect a person by air, which is kinda weird.

It was Ellie's decision to make. Not Joel's or the Fireflies'. In that position I would have wanted to know what Ellie wanted and would have gone with it either way.

That's a stupid sentiment. What it actually means is that Joel is human. A lot of people like to spout Star Trek style nonsense of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, but when it would come down to it, they wouldn't be willing to sacrifice someone close to them. In fact, if they were willing to sacrifice someone close to them, then that person would be the realpiece of shit. Joel did the right thing, since Ellie's life is worth more then a "potential" cure...

Personally I think the Fireflies had no clue what they were doing. They were a rebel faction fighting a fringe movement and run by idealists living on nostalgia. Those type of movements and organizations never work long term. The fact that they were willing to kill Ellie to study her brain when even they knew they might not find a cure shows how desperate and nonsensical they were. If you only have one known immune person the last freaking thing you want to do is kill them. If you don't have a way of studying them safely you look for a way to do so. You don't kill them and say "Man I sure hope this works out..."

So was what Joel did morally "good"? In the strictest sense no. But the Fireflies were not some pillars of morality either, they were willing to kill Ellie and they sure as crap didn't care all that much if Joel died completing his mission. So Joel did a very bad thing, but he did it for good intentions, and even though it was bad I am not too sure it was really any worse than killing Ellie for "what if" and "we can probably..." Meanwhile it isn't like the Fireflies are the only people looking for a cure, there could be some other organization out there a ton less whacko who could run safe tests on Ellie. You don't know, but it doesn't seem particularly far fetched.

I have a daughter, so I naturally though Joel was super justified in his actions. I'd have done the exact same.

I completely disagree with Joel's actions at the end of the game, if there was even a potential chance at a cure - even the slightest sliver, I would want to go for it too. Living in that shit hole of a world would make me insanely desperate, so I can completely sympathize with the Fireflies, even if I disagree with their methods.

I know the argument of "if that was your daughter you would have done the same" is brought up a lot, and I agree. I WOULD have done the same thing, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Wait, how is the ending crap?

On the topic of her biting him - she was probably trying to scare him. Neither she nor the audience knows if David would have turned into a zombie.

The problem with this is that a lot of the discussion going on here already happened in that other thread. "Joel's an asshole" "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" "Joel did the right thing for selfish reasons" "Joel did the wrong thing" "It should have been Ellie's choice". All of it, somewhere in the other thread - this is mostly just other people stating the same thing.

Eh, if the mods don't mind it then whatever.

As for my own answer, I don't think that Joel was an asshole. He certainly wasn't a paragon of morality or something, but he's no worse than any of us might be in such a situation. He was human, he did the human thing. Frankly, if anybody needed to be disillusioned, it was the Fireflies. A faltering rebel faction ready to kill a teenage girl just because it might bring them a cure? And they didn't even take the time to try and think of a method that would keep Ellie alive? Some of you people are telling me that saving Ellie from them was wrong? I find that baffling.

@believer258: Progress is made by iterating on the same discussions you've been having for ages. If the conversation is stagnant and not allowed to renew itself then it never progresses.

Could'a bumped the old thread.

But as I said, if the mods have noticed this and are A-OK with it then I'm not going to make an argument for closing it.

It means that the fireflies didn't have any humanity left in them, But Ellie and Joel's brother and his community did though and that's exactly where he was determined to take her, to live with people who could give her a chance to have a normal life and of course Joel was attached to her.

Of course you could necro a dead thread. It's still dead. The arguments and the people making the arguments are no longer active. You could respond to an argument or opinion and get no response because the thread is a year old dead thread. There is absolutely NO real reason NOT to start a new thread with active posters discussing the same subject than attempting to force life support to some dead topic that hasnt had a reply in months or years.

The discussion in the new thread would be more lively, interesting and active than bumping and old dead thread.

And again, what is the harm. I see threads locked all the time because "something similar exists even though its a year old dead thread so im locking your post" But i can't for the life of me see the harm. yes if multiple active threads on the same subject are going then yeah, merge/lock some down, but locking a thread because a year old similiar thread exists is fucking STUPID.

They have no idea how or why Ellie was able to survive the infection beyond a vague 'it mutated'. Killing her could have easily killed the infection as well, or destroyed whatever it was inside her which made her immune, the fireflies were desperate, looking for some bullshit 'sacrifice' to save humanity, no rational scientist or doctor would be willing to just kill a patient unless they had iron proof that removing the infection from Ellie would allow them to engineer a cure.

While Joel was acting on totally selfish desires, he probably saved the possibility of a cure by saving Ellie. If they manage to live long enough, he could eventually tell her the truth, or find anther way to have her infection studied without resorting to the martyr method.

I personally really liked the ending, as so many games explore the idea of a messiah or 'The One', and this felt like Naughty Dog setting up another of those stories then pulling out the rug at the last second.

The dumbest part is the head writer guy Neil Druckmann has said stuff to the affect of "It was going to work, we put all those notes and stuff around to tell the player the surgery would work" and how Ellie is mad at Joel at the end from robbing her of the chance to save the world.

I love this game but fuck, it's a shitty run down hospital and I can't suspend my disbelief enough to believe this would work. Also Ellie wasn't asked to help - she was forced plus Joel wasn't allowed to say good-bye ... I mean why the hell didn't they let them talk about this? At the time I liked the ending, and I still do, but those holes are just too big...

Taking a chance on the cure I get ... not asking Ellie I don't.

Also, Ellie thought the murderous Joel who admitted to killing innocent people was a great protector for her when she needed him but now she's too good for him? Yikes ... stuck up cow.

....but I really did like this game I swear.

Just gonna say what I keep saying, once you have kids you'll understand. Joel didn't have a choice. He did the only thing he could do. Why didn't he leave it up to Ellie? Because she's fucking 14 that's why.

Oh you mean (shameless self-plug) here? http://www.giantbomb.com/the-last-of-us/3030-36989/forums/opinions-on-the-climax-of-the-last-of-us-spoilers--1465038/

Because, I mean I imagine it was hard enough on Marlene already to give the order, and she really believed in this cure thing. How impossible would it be on her if they took the time to wake her up and Ellie said "no"? It's not like Marlene could just say, "Oh alright then guess we'll just try something else." Joel having a chance to say goodbye to her never would have entered Marlene's head. He was just the ruthless asshole delivery guy. She was busy being too fucked up over the thought of having to murder a girl that she helped raise and protect for years to get a chance at some greater good.

Joel was so alienated by the corporate state / human power structures, because of what they did to his daughter, that he saw no sense in reinvigorating the human population, especially at the expense of Ellie.

makes sense to me, I can sympathize, he's not a piece of shit at all, he's a practical dude.

From what I could gather, the infection was winning - the quarantine zones were failing, resources were scarce and the remnants of the US military were running out of personnel. The game heavily implies that humanity is in severe danger of going extinct - the economy was so run down that they were going to run out of resources that enabled the quarantine zones to be maintained.

Even if there was no guarantee the cure could work, a shot is a shot. All of humanity's future was riding on this. Joel made the wrong choice - an understandable choice, yes, but the wrong one.

I had the same thoughts last year. Joel made the wrong choice, but it's the same one I would've made. Humanity as portrayed in the game didn't seem like it was worth saving.

Isn't there some documents that you can read in the hospital that explain she is not the first immune subject?

I swear i remember reading somewhere that you can find all this info relating to other immune people having various operations and none of them proving helpful.

I just finished the game recently and I think the ending fits the tone of the game really well. Just bleak and nasty. As for how I feel about Joel, I think he's a real piece of shit, mostly because he lied to Ellie at the end. He made his decision to save her, and just like the Fireflies, he didn't give her a choice. I know it's kind of irrational of me, but it's more that lack of choice that sticks with me than the outcome of the decision. As others have said, it makes Joel seem very selfish.

What about Tommy's village? You see it again at the end of the game and it looked like it had grown, substantially, since the last time Joel and Ellie were there. To me, that was a hint that humanity was growing, or at least can grow back again. They'll figure out how to deal with the infection.

Just gonna say what I keep saying, once you have kids you'll understand. Joel didn't have a choice. He did the only thing he could do. Why didn't he leave it up to Ellie? Because she's fucking 14 that's why.

I agree with this, too. Should it be Ellie's choice? An adult Ellie, maybe, but fourteen years old isn't old enough to weigh this kind of decision. Yes, she's seen shit and is probably a little more mature than most fourteen year olds, but she's also immature enough to run off on a horse. In the middle of a zombie apocalypse. With murderous bandits roaming the landscape.

Some posters are far too idealistic.

hold on.

if he waited until ellie was older, when the existing power structure had crumbled and the military was gone once and for all, they could then have made the decision to proceed with the cure, giving humanity a better chance to start from scratch and avoid all those corrupt systems.

what's wrong about that? it is, in fact, the right choice. right?

also, @notdavid - "humanity as portrayed in the game" - like it's any different from actual humanity. don't you see the corporate state in effect? don't you see how ruthless and corrupt and heartless it is? this is why joel's dilemma works so well, cos it's entirely relevant to the world we live in.

countless people are as alienated as joel is, moreso even, in our world, and would probably condemn the current system to ruin rather than save it. just because you don't feel that yourself doesn't mean you shouldn't try to understand that very prevalent point of view.

Right, and considering that all those tests failed it doesn't inspire anyone to think this one would not. Additionally if there were other immune people there is no reason to believe more immune people might not be out there or that it is impossible of someone giving birth to another immune child. The idea that Ellie has to die for the cure is ludicrous.

We're gonna have to wait for the full story, but essentially, it completely goes against previously established moods for no good reason.

I'm curious how you're going to explain that because I think it's exactly what the story has been building up to at this point.

@video_game_king: no it doesn't, at all. it's the perfect book-end for his daughter getting shot at the start. it's an iron rod that the story - joel's struggle with his newfound responsibility - is built around, and he makes the choice that the state dictated at the beginning by shooting his daughter and ripping his heart out.

*sigh*

Joel's dilemma is the only literature-worthy piece of writing games have ever seen, and are likely to see for a very long time. Too bad it's wasted on gamers.

You Joel apologists are crazy.

First, he saved Elie because she is basically the only reason he has to live. It wasn't some high minded reasoned anti establishment choice. It was entirely selfish. He saved her to save himself.

Second, it was Elie's choice to make and she would've chosen to die and maybe save humanity in the process.

So yeah, it was the wrong choice and Joel is still a monster but I completely understand/empathize. That's why the ending sequence is so effective.

@video_game_king said:

@hh said:

Joel's dilemma is the only literature-worthy piece of writing games have ever seen, and are likely to see for a very long time.

that's right, give yourself credit for not being able to see it. well done.

@hh:

You really wish to do this, don't you? You're assuming I'm some sort of idiot without any legitimate reasons for disliking the ending, right?