TLOU Ending

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#101 Posted by ryanmgraef (243 posts) -

@azrailx: yeah I guess. I don't know... I am what ever you say I am, I just know that the world can burn for my little girl.

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#102 Posted by Shindig (4835 posts) -

Rewatched the cutscenes and I'm now on Joel's side. You can't tell me for the majority of the game the Fireflies are being battered and then expect me to be okay with them trying to engineer a vaccine with like, 3 doctors and no funding.

Although it's a lovely hospital.

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#103 Posted by AlisterCat (8054 posts) -

Just finished it and the ending was too abrupt for my liking, but I like that it wasn't exactly a happy ending either. There has been a lot of bickering in this thread whereas I feel you can take away from the ending what you want.

Joel made a selfish decision. Some people would have done the same thing. I wouldn't have, and I was angry at his selfishness, but I don't have to agree with the choices fictional characters make. He's not my surrogate.

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#104 Edited by xPolyMorphic (118 posts) -

At the end of Winter Joel says to Ellie (although it's unheard it fits all too nicely into his lip movements) "I'll never let anything happen to you" or something very similar, too which Ellie responds with a nod. He doesn't go back on his word /endgame

Also I think if there's any "problem" with the ending it's that the Fireflys haven't pursued an alternative. Marlene is clearly surprised that they survived let alone made it to the hospital. After a year of failure Marlene is still kean on the idea of sacrificing Ellie for something that will probably not work.

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#105 Edited by EternalMesh (100 posts) -

@friendlypossum: it means we will do anything for the ones we love. Even if we have to lie to them. You never know what youre capable of until your loved ones are on the line.

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#106 Posted by PandaBear (1484 posts) -

It should have ended with Joel revealing that this whole story is one he's been writing for a book. Dan actually is dead, his sister Jackie is a lesbian, Mark was really Darlene's boyfriend and David was really Becky's boyfriend, Ellie was in actual fact his loyal dog, his daughter got her own spin-off show and instead of a fungus-zombie outbreak Joel, in real life, won the lottery.

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#107 Posted by friendlypossum (232 posts) -

It should have ended with Joel revealing that this whole story is one he's been writing for a book. Dan actually is dead, his sister Jackie is a lesbian, Mark was really Darlene's boyfriend and David was really Becky's boyfriend, Ellie was in actual fact his loyal dog, his daughter got her own spin-off show and instead of a fungus-zombie outbreak Joel, in real life, won the lottery.

My Sides!

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#108 Edited by Jeust (11739 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@jeust: I've already talked about Tommy's village enough. I don't need to elaborate further, because there's a bigger point that really bugs me. It's not just you, a lot of people have brought it up and I haven't fully expanded.

I think everything is worth sacrifying for hope. The death of a hundred is justified if the race would find a cure and survive. Because otherwise they really are the last of us, like the name implies.

All right. So you sacrifice one girl on just a chance that it will save the human race. I'll talk about the "what-if-it-works" in a minute; for now, what if it doesn't work? One of two things will happen - you'll stop or you'll keep looking for another immune person. If you stop, then you will be admitting that you killed a little girl for nothing and this will bother you until you die. If you still believe that you did the right thing, then you'll keep looking for another immune person. If you find one, you will kill that person in pursuit of a cure. And you'll keep going down that same path until the day you die. Every time you choose to keep looking, you'll reinforce the belief that it will eventually work and you won't stop. People will keep dying because you can't let the idea go that maybe, just maybe, you'll save the human race. That is why I cannot accept laying a person's life on a maybe. Such thinking just contributes a pile of bodies to the human race, which is also why I disagree with this:

I at least respect the actions of a person with their heart in the right place. And this time I respect the decisions of the Fireflies, and if I were in their shoes I would fight to resist the urge to do the same thing they did. Because they are sacrifying everything for the hope of a better life, and that includes not only Ellie, but themselves too.

"Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions". I didn't think I'd be quoting Jurassic Park 3, but hey, it fits the situation.

So what if it did work? You're in Marlene's position and you found a cure. Congratulations. Now, as above, one of two things are going to happen. You're going to do your best to mass produce it (something likely impossible for the Fireflies in the first place) and suddenly every faction with an itchy trigger finger is going to come after you. A cure means power, and the Fireflies are all but gone by the end of the game. They can't defend themselves against everyone coming after it. You'll have incited something approximating a war. You'll just have faction after faction fighting over it, leading to a bigger pile of bodies than that what-if-it-doesn't scenario could ever hope to achieve. To avoid this, you'll have to keep your cure secret and only give it to a select few people, effectively rendering it almost useless. Also, a pretty good chance of rumors about a cure spreading and said power struggles happening anyway.

So, in the best case scenario, you've got the death of a little girl on your hands and it was useless. You go on with your life tormented by guilt. Is that "chance" still worth it? Finding a cure isn't going to be the end of it, that isn't going to magically save humanity.

And I think that's all I really need to say on this topic for the moment.

About Tommy's village don't ignore the two dead enginners predicment.

If like the premise tells those where the last days of mankind, I believe everything is worth sacrificing if it meant the continuation of the race. How many little girls would be worth the continuation of mankind?

You forget that the world we have today was and is built upon atrocities, and yes piles of bodies, many of them for selfish reasons, and we're here to enjoy the benefits of that. So don't come argue righteousness in a (real) world where human life rarely has the value you pretend to give it here.

Secondly your idea of going after other immune subjects is completely out of context. The Fireflies had never found another immune person, so they weren't probably looking or hunting for them. That's why Ellie was so precious to them.

This real world is built upon maybes. Much of the scientific knowledge and drugs we have today were achieved at great person and human cost. If you want to talk about sacrifices here is a paper about "Human Sacrifice and Human Experimentation: Reflections at Nuremberg" from the Yale Law School:

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&context=ylsop_papers

In it, it has one distinguishable period which says:

At the dawn of medical science in the mid-1850s, “experiment treacherous” assumed a dimension

not contemplated by Hippocrates. For the first time, experimentation would extend to countless

patients, not for their direct benefit, but to advance scientific knowledge for the benefit of

mankind. Medicine now held the promise of reversing Hippocrates; aphorism: Life would be

longer, art shorter and science longer, opportunity enduring, judgment easier. To accomplish

these objectives, a new breed of scientific physician-investigators expected their patient-subjects

to make sacrifices on behalf of medical science. Thus, experiment would become even more

treacherous.

So despite the fact that you can't accept, that's what happened and happens in reality, and it does contribute to a pile of bodies, yet in there lies the possibility to make life better for the rest of us, and future generations. In a time where there isn't any major plague affecting the first world like the spanish flu or the black death it is easy for us to discuss ethics, but when push comes to shove it is really hard to apply ethics in a hopeless situation.

And because nothing in life is certain unless it's "death and taxes", there is a realm of mathematics called probabilities. Because you can never be certain of anything, especially in science, a field of knowledge that is constantly expanding and being corrected.

So many lives were and are gambled for the possibility of knowledge, selfishness and the possibility of survival and the betterment of mankind.

Well and about the outcome of finding the cure you are clearly dismissing two things:

  1. If Joel didn't went guns blazzing in there, the fireflies wouldn't be all but gone, even as when Joel escapes the Hospital there is plenty of them in there;
  2. Have you ever heard the expression "knowledge is power"? If a cure had been achieved, with their political agenda and the cure, they could call for the restoration of a civil government and at the same time rally people under their leadership, because certainly there would be a lot of people looking for the cure for selfish reasons but there would be many more looking for hope. This is not to say that they would be able to control the events that would unfold, but they would have the chance to bring back civilization. And even if they failed, and the US became a dictatorship of sorts, no regime lasts forever, and so another possibility for freedom would arise in time.

If they failed to find it, there would be the pain and guilt from what they've done, but if trully altruistic there would also be the realization that they did the best they could. This is exemplified very well by the tape of Marlene that talks about how tired she is and desires that the tests would end. If they failed there would be no more hope for the return of civilization if the world was winding down like the game suggests.

In the end I prefer hope to despair, even if it's more confortable.

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#109 Edited by Justin258 (15591 posts) -

@jeust:

If they failed to find it, there would be the pain and guilt from what they've done, but if trully altruistic there would also be the realization that they did the best they could.

Sure. Fine. I get the feeling that you spent several days trying to come up with a response and you painted in broad strokes, made assumptions about my inability to accept the "real world", and then said that you'd be A-OK with seeing an unstable, desperate terrorist group in charge. A terrorist group that - let's focus here - decided on the fate of a perfectly healthy girl's life before she even got to them. At the very least, don't you think it's a little suspect that those doctors immediately decided that she had to die? Or that nobody thought "hey, maybe we should try an approach that allows her to live".

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#110 Edited by pweidman (2839 posts) -

While morally and ethically questionable for sure, Joel's decision was based on his experiences. After scratching, clawing, murdering and exterminating out an existence over 20+ years, it just came down to the fact he couldn't bear to lose Ellie. The ultimately untrustable human race be damned in his mind. Understandable. He was a flawed and scared person, and naturally considering his situation and existence. TLoU was a character study and a game that made you ask yourself: What would I have done?

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#111 Edited by Jeust (11739 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@jeust:

If they failed to find it, there would be the pain and guilt from what they've done, but if trully altruistic there would also be the realization that they did the best they could.

Sure. Fine. I get the feeling that you spent several days trying to come up with a response and you painted in broad strokes, made assumptions about my inability to accept the "real world", and then said that you'd be A-OK with seeing an unstable, desperate terrorist group in charge. A terrorist group that - let's focus here - decided on the fate of a perfectly healthy girl's life before she even got to them. At the very least, don't you think it's a little suspect that those doctors immediately decided that she had to die? Or that nobody thought "hey, maybe we should try an approach that allows her to live".

Actually no. The thing is I have a lot of things on my mind, and this while enticing and interesting, it is not a great concern of mine, still I hate to leave a discussion on a foot I don't agree upon.

I can't say the Fireflies would act as terrorists or not, but according to their charter of demands to the military forces, mentioned in the beginning of the game, they were fighting for the return of all civil branches of government. So based on that, I say they were, at least on paper, striving to recover society as it used to be. But on that world, appart from a few tucked away safely in the quarantine zones, everyone was unstable and desperate.

The fireflies didn't decide upon Ellie's future before they arrived. They did x-rays upon her arrival and saw that the fungus had grown around her brain. Still I agree with you that they could first try a biopsy, and see where that would lead them. But I'm no surgeon or medic so I can't tell you if they acted wrongly. But I wouldn't put extracting the whole fungus from her head as first option.

Also the entire ending is a bit contrieved to get that final shock. The fact that surgeon had advanced to the operation in so little time and without waking up Ellie, Joel's confrontation with Marlene in the patient room was a bit forced too in my opinion, and so the fact that you had to kill the surgeon to get Ellie from the building. All for the sake of the final punch in the gut of the player.

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