Nintendo's flagship fantasy action-adventure series created by Shigeru Miyamoto and Takashi Tezuka in 1985, the Zelda series is the source of many revolutionary gameplay conventions, and continues to be one of the most popular and critically acclaimed video game franchises of all time.
Has anyone ever actually cared about any Zelda character?
I've been trying to figure out why I can't get any enjoyment out of a Zelda game (Except for maybe, Minish Cap) I think its because the characters are always so abstract and shallow. It may have been by design because Nintendo wanted the player to put himself into the character, and this was great back when the NES and similar platforms were around and there wasn't much else in terms of great characters and storytelling. But when I play Twilight Princess, or Wind Waker, or Ocarina of time, all I see is a bunch of dudes with weird pointy ears trying to exlain to me this elaborate story about something that doesn't actually directly involve them.
"Some dude pops up, tells me, Ganons back, you should kill him because if you don't he'll destroy the magical light world with his evil army of shadowy demon soldiers who have taken over Hyrule and by the way Zelda has been captured by them and she needs you to save her, but make sure you get the wand of light first and if you happen upon any vases with rupees in them break them one at a time, not all at once, and be sure that if you get more than 10 rupees you buy a bigger wallet so you can buy the bigger quiver so you can get to the dungeon that has the key to another dungeon where the map to the dungeon with the light wand is. Oh, by the way, my names Kevin."
So in the end this dude teling me what to do isn't important, he's just some dude who keeps me pointed down a linear story path. He will never be someone i have to worry about, i won't remember what he looks like or why he cares where the hell Zelda is. It would be great if the dude had a voice (jeff has made his want of voice acting clear,) so i could at least remember what he said. Instead im forced to read line after line of poorly written text about a story that Ive seen in every other Zelda game before and not have any burning questions about why the hell i should even bother. I can't go back and talk to him further because every time i do, all he'll ask me is do I want to buy another bottle of lamp oil. Guess what, I don't.
Its things like that which make me wish Bioware could get their hands on the Zelda franchise.
wat There is absolutely nothing poorly written about Greenhouse's localizations. Zelda's narrative is bare bones, sure, but videogame narratives tend to be retarded anyways and who cares, its Zelda. "
IT BEING ZELDA IS NOT AN EXCUSE!
It should have a better story because games should be fun, and a game with as much mechanical complexity as Zelda should be balanced out with a complex story, in order to make it fun. Its fine in Mario, where the entire story is, get the princess, Bowser is a tool. But that makes sense because the only things people can do in the Mushroom Kingdom is jump, run and smash things, and there is continuity between each game. Goombas are always brown and mushroom like, Mario always wear overalls. In Zelda, your thrust into an entirely new setting every time, sometimes Link is old, sometimes he's young, sometimes he starts in the mountains, other times he starts in the forest, sometimes he owns a frigging boat and has a sister, other times he only has a Horse and a chubby friend. It should be expected that the story would change as well, but it doesn't.
wat There is absolutely nothing poorly written about Greenhouse's localizations. Zelda's narrative is bare bones, sure, but videogame narratives tend to be retarded anyways and who cares, its Zelda. "
IT BEING ZELDA IS NOT AN EXCUSE! It should have a better story because games should be fun, and a game with as much mechanical complexity as Zelda should be balanced out with a complex story, in order to make it fun. Its fine in Mario, where the entire story is, get the princess, Bowser is a tool. But that makes sense because the only things people can do in the Mushroom Kingdom is jump, run and smash things, and there is continuity between each game. Goombas are always brown and mushroom like, Mario always wear overalls. In Zelda, your thrust into an entirely new setting every time, sometimes Link is old, sometimes he's young, sometimes he starts in the mountains, other times he starts in the forest, sometimes he owns a frigging boat and a sister, other times he only has a Horse and a chubby friend. It should be expected that the story would change as well, but it doesn't. "
You make this sound as if the vast majority of videogame stories isn't embarrassing junk that wouldn't even get approved by Harlequin romance writers. Most people who play Zelda(rightfully) don't care.
I can think of only a handful of games which have a decent story. and I can count the videogames with good, memorable stories which transcend the medium, on one hand.
The only Zelda story that has actively bothered me was Twilight Princess. On multiple attempts I've gone all the way to just after the Sky Dungeon only to just burn out because I didn't care about the story. There's an overarching sense that the developers didn't really care about that game either.
I would call Wind Waker and Majora's Mask above average. The art style (in Wind Waker at least) gives the characters some noticeable emotion and both games specialize in characters that matter outside of the main story quest, which is good for a Zelda game because like you say that part of it is always the same. Of course the earlier games like Link to the Past were fine for what they were. I agree that we shouldn't lower the standards for Nintendo just because but so far they haven't pulled anything too offensive, for me at least.
I've never actually cared about any video game character. I really don't care how much we criticize the character development, that doesn't change the awesome times I've had with Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker. Those were all fucking excellent games. Character driven story development isn't what I play Zelda for, guy.
In Zelda, your thrust into an entirely new setting every time, sometimes Link is old, sometimes he's young, sometimes he starts in the mountains, other times he starts in the forest, sometimes he owns a frigging boat and has a sister, other times he only has a Horse and a chubby friend. It should be expected that the story would change as well, but it doesn't. "
I've always liked to think of it as different tellings of the same story. It is called the Legend of Zelda afterall, legends aren't exactly set in stone.
But yeah, the emphasis put on the story in Twilight Princess was a bit of a bummer since it seemed like such a quiet world...and I hated most of the character design.
Why not? Zelda isn't about an emotional character driven plot. The story, as TaliciaDragonsong pointed out, is a fairy tale. So, as an example, the story would read something along the lines - "Once upon a time there was the kingdom of Hyrule, and in this kingdom lived a princess, but one day the princess was kidnapped by an evil man beast dude called Ganon, or Ganondorf, and was threatening to plunge the whole world into darkness. Thankfully, one boy took it upon himself to not just simply sit idly by while the world was destroyed and remembered a legend he heard when he was younger about a magical sword that could smite evil, and then embarked upon a quest to find it and to save the princess and the world."
What it sounds like you're basically asking for is - "And while he was in the middle of the dangerous fire temple fighting off a giant monster his friend Tingle called him on his cell phone. Link feeling compelled to answer, because he knows that Tingle is an emotional man that could go off at any moment, was promptly asked by Tingle if he wanted to go to the bar with him in ten minutes because his girlfriend just broke up with him and his parents disowned him and if he didn't have some company right away he would lose it."
Would that ACTUALLY make Zelda a more emotionally compelling experience? Or would it just feel bizarre and out of place? I'm not saying you can't have memorable characters in the game, but most of the games DO have memorable characters already, regardless of whether or not you actually feel emotionally attached to them, they are there. People you do side quests for, characters that accompany you throughout the adventure, people in the towns you revisit. I'm not saying you, personally, have to form an emotional attachment to them - you don't, Link doesn't even. But they are characters that are vaguely memorable and people that, in a fair tale, wouldn't serve as emotional baggage to Link. They would be people he helped out and that helped him out. He's the lone mysterious hero that makes acquaintances easily but makes friends seldomly. He doesn't need over the top compelling characters that make you want to break down crying and are constantly calling him up for favors. That's not what the game is about. The game is about the mechanics and the feel of the dungeons and that puzzles and the monsters and of the world as a whole. Not every game needs to be designed the same way, some games are ok without an overlaying emotional narrative attached. It's also ok for you not to like games that don't have that. Or for you to just not like Zelda.
Since when have Zelda games have ever tried to ground themselves in reality with trivial things like "Plot" and "Motivation"? They're based around a man-child (I can only assume he still does it) swinging sticks around his neighborhood pretending to fight monsters. Zelda games are fantasy in it's highest form: pure escapism.
I think your real problem is the repetition. since it's basically the same story, same progression, the same items every time, which is certainly understandable.
I felt the collective populous of Hyrule had enough character that I actively avoided allowing them all to get killed by a giant meteor in Majora's Mask. But seriously, ask me this question about, like, any game. I'd rather have a thin caricature I deal with once than a fleshed out gadfly like Joker (not the Batman one).
Yeah, I feel the characters are good (having spent so much time with them over the years), although that's probably due more to nostalgia than genuinely interesting characters.
Just saying it's a fairy tale seems a bit lame. Disney's fairy tales are full of characters and that's why they're so memorable. Zelda has a fairy tale a plot and none of the accompanying charm, at least not enough for me to get interested in played that exact same experience more than once.
I guess its not about the sweeping story line or deep characters. Its like the discovery channel when you see a lion eat an antelope. It just must happen. i.e. when there is Gannon Link must kill it. The joy doesn't come from deep story, but from familiarity with the premises and places and music etc.
@HandsomeDead: You don't mind doing it for GTA, seems like. Oh but that's different somehow. Yeah it is different, Zelda games are uniquely fun every game partially because there aren't 20 other people making the same game. GTA games are the same game in different cities. And in between doing the same chores you did last game, you get a unique story with great characters. That's a hell of a tradeoff, especially for people who play games for the game part.
@ryanwho: So trying to dress the gameplay up a bit differently is somehow worse than doing nothing to make it any different. Also, by the end of Red Dead Redemption, I found the Rockstar formula to be showing some pretty big cracks and I didn't like GTA: San Andreas or the Episodes From Liberty City, you haven't exactly caught me out.
And not, like, precocious smart children. It's written for preschool and early elementary school age kids. It's the Blues Clues of videogames.
I tried to play Zelda 64 just earlier this week and was amazed at how people try to say the game has a "good story" and "good characters". One girl's line of dialog was something along the lines of "YAHOOO! Are you going to go see the Deku Tree?"
O_o
I mean, seriously?
I struggle with this, as well, due largely to the fact that I used to be a HUGE Zelda fan. It's a game that is largely responsible for who I am as an adult. I even find the second zelda game, which most people hate, to be utterly brilliant. But, then, the game has become much more a game for small children than when that game was released.
But, I think the idea that zelda needs to become more hardcore and narrative heavy is pretentious and wrong headed. Zelda is, after all, nothing but a loose simplification and abstraction of The Lord of The Rings games. If you want a more hardcore Zelda story... read TLOTR. There you go.
What some people have been pointing out, is that Zelda isn't a convoluted narrative like Hideo Kojima or Square likes to put out. And contrary to popular gamer belief, that is NOT superior storytelling. When you need to buy arrows and you don't have enough money so you have to spend some time doing part time jobs to save up enough for the arrows.... that is the story. When you're low on health, and about to die, and you don't have any healing items, and you swing your sword at the enemy and vanquish him with a lucky strike... that IS the story.
Adding in cut scenes agonizing over these moments and rendering them in 3D does not make them more "mature" or "story driven". It just wastes time obsessing over information that should be communicated more effectively and succinctly. It is, in effect, bad storytelling.
But for people who essentially like the game for no other reason than nostalgia and that it reminds them of playing the game when they were younger... that's just pathetic.
@JazGalaxy: I don't think many people are calling any Zelda story great (as the "story" is basically tantamount to the premise set up after you do an hour of tutorial shit) but otherwise I basically agree with what you said. Basically if people really think contrived shit like MGS is good storytelling, patch together the Zelda timeline and you'll have your "good" Zelda story. Cus it doesn't get more contrived than that.
Never. I don't think I actually cared about any character in any Nintendo made game. I doesn't really bower me if I enjoy the game but if it's something new to me it's a lot harder to get into. I had a very hard time with Zelda because they force you to spend about an hour in your starting village talking to people you don't really want to talk to. Wind Waker and Minish Cap won me over but I still can't play Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess or any of the older ones.
link is genuinely a boring character. how can you care about someone who doesn't even have a personality? it's not like he's there solely for the purpose of being your avatar in the game, a placeholder for your emotions etc., either, because he is a genuine character, not a gordon freeman-esque mannequin for you to project your own thoughts onto. just a complete blank sheet.
the other characters of the zelda universe aren't really imaginative (you know, after years and years of being the exact same thing), but at least they have their own distinct personalities. it's like this with a lot of nintendo's characters. nicely designed and all that, but their personalities only stretch as far as a few catchphrases and grunts when attacking things.
i would love to see nintendo place less of a focus on exhausting their current franchises and bring in some well developed, intriguing characters. it's never going to happen, but it would be very nice to see.
link is genuinely a boring character. how can you care about someone who doesn't even have a personality? it's not like he's there solely for the purpose of being your avatar in the game, a placeholder for your emotions etc., either, because he is a genuine character, not a gordon freeman-esque mannequin for you to project your own thoughts onto. just a complete blank sheet.
the other characters of the zelda universe aren't really imaginative (you know, after years and years of being the exact same thing), but at least they have their own distinct personalities. it's like this with a lot of nintendo's characters. nicely designed and all that, but their personalities only stretch as far as a few catchphrases and grunts when attacking things.
i would love to see nintendo place less of a focus on exhausting their current franchises and bring in some well developed, intriguing characters. it's never going to happen, but it would be very nice to see.
*prepares flame shield*
"
I agree with what you're saying up until the idea that Nintendo needs to have more well developed characters. I don't necessarily think that "developing" characters is necessary in videogames. Especially Nintendo games. When done right, you develop your own characters. Almost every single decision Nintendo has made to "develop" their characters has done nothing but ruin the characters in my opinion.
I still remember the exact second I heard Mario's voice when walking around a corner at Toy's R Us to find a N64 demo unit. It was mind blowing and soul crushing at the same time.
I loved Captain Falcon in Fzero on the SNES only to have his character ruined for me by seeing way to much of who he was really supposed to be in Smash Brothers and FZero on the Gamecube.
Link is much the same way. I was quite attached to his characer right up until Ocarina of Time and onward when he became an annoying jumble of awkward yells and anime-style animations.
Now Nintendo is in the process of similarly ruining Samus Aran.
It's no mystery why Nintendo's characeters have lasted for 30 years while other franchise characters burn out after 2 or 3 games. It's the LACK of "development" that makes the characters classic and endearing. They can be to everyone what that person needs them to be.
Video games are an interactive medium. Sometimes, a game will ask you to give a little. The characters and story in Zelda are as good as whatever you put between the lines.
link is genuinely a boring character. how can you care about someone who doesn't even have a personality? it's not like he's there solely for the purpose of being your avatar in the game, a placeholder for your emotions etc., either, because he is a genuine character, not a gordon freeman-esque mannequin for you to project your own thoughts onto. just a complete blank sheet.
the other characters of the zelda universe aren't really imaginative (you know, after years and years of being the exact same thing), but at least they have their own distinct personalities. it's like this with a lot of nintendo's characters. nicely designed and all that, but their personalities only stretch as far as a few catchphrases and grunts when attacking things.
i would love to see nintendo place less of a focus on exhausting their current franchises and bring in some well developed, intriguing characters. it's never going to happen, but it would be very nice to see.
*prepares flame shield*
"
I agree with what you're saying up until the idea that Nintendo needs to have more well developed characters. I don't necessarily think that "developing" characters is necessary in videogames. Especially Nintendo games. When done right, you develop your own characters. Almost every single decision Nintendo has made to "develop" their characters has done nothing but ruin the characters in my opinion. I still remember the exact second I heard Mario's voice when walking around a corner at Toy's R Us to find a N64 demo unit. It was mind blowing and soul crushing at the same time. I loved Captain Falcon in Fzero on the SNES only to have his character ruined for me by seeing way to much of who he was really supposed to be in Smash Brothers and FZero on the Gamecube. Link is much the same way. I was quite attached to his characer right up until Ocarina of Time and onward when he became an annoying jumble of awkward yells and anime-style animations. Now Nintendo is in the process of similarly ruining Samus Aran. It's no mystery why Nintendo's characeters have lasted for 30 years while other franchise characters burn out after 2 or 3 games. It's the LACK of "development" that makes the characters classic and endearing. They can be to everyone what that person needs them to be. "
in any other situation, these kinds of characters would be labelled under developed, meaningless and absolutely lifeless characters, yet, nintendo seems to get away with it. it's things like these that keep video games from being taken seriously as a media platform. you look at any good (emphasis on good) movie or novel, and what is the main focus? storytelling, character development and imagery. take a brief glance at half of the games out there, and where is the focus placed? gameplay. *
nintendo's need to innovate has been horribly misplaced. i'm sure they are more than capable of creating an interesting, compelling story, with intriguing characters to boot, so why don't they?
*this is not me saying that gameplay isn't important, as it is still a very important part of gaming, akin to how camera work is important to film, or how structure is important to a novel. however, can you imagine a film where the entire focus was devoted to camera work, or a novel where the author bows relentlessly to structure and ignores storytelling technique?
i'm also not saying that we should completely disregard games without focus, as it sometimes occurs in film and written word, too (the new a-team movie, predator, "make your own fantasy" novels etc.), and they can be perfectly enjoyable. however, it does not make for good storytelling, and it never will. it puzzles me how anybody can feel any sort of connection to most nintendo characters, besides nostalgia.
When the majority of other games have characters that one can deeply care about, I think then we can have a discussion on how this may be a con in the Zelda series. However, as others have already stated, the vast majority of video games are filled with shallow characters. I think such a point is better put to use when pointed to video games at large. Why has there only been a handful of characters in video games with whom players can connect? I don't mean in a Bioware sense either. I love Bioware games, but I yearn for character development beyond standing in the hub and hearing the complex back story of a character. That's exposition and would be considered sloppy in just about any other medium.
Where are the games that actively cause characters to deepen and change through the process of the actual, ongoing narrative? To make it seem as if Zelda--a series with immediately weak characters--is the lone offender is false, I would argue.
To actually touch on your point though, I agree, and I feel as if the fairytale argument is a misnomer. It is certainly a fairytale, but no fairytale is told for some odd number of hours. Even if the characters do remain archetypes, they should be expanded upon and fleshed out more. Creating more well-rounded characters does not mean the series has to take on a gritty narrative or swipe the (well intentioned but poorly executed) friendship mechanic from GTAIV. I believe that if Nintendo was willing to investigate the intention of their narrative, they could find a way to make several compelling and interesting characters. Movies (certainly video games current mentor) have to do as much within the span of only a few hours. I see no reason why Zelda (and other games) would be incapable of doing the same.
This. Had a bit of a crush on her as a kid. Video games are an interactive medium. Sometimes, a game will ask you to give a little. The characters and story in Zelda are as good as whatever you put between the lines. "
But I can remember being ten, trying to play Ocarina of time (Maybe it was Majora's mask) And not being amused by anybody in that game. I wasn't interested in the world and the characters didn't add anything worth remembering. Then, you move on in the story and have zero reason to remember what you did in the starting area. Apparently a large tree had told me to go do something.......... it was a cool tree, it had bark and stuff. It leaves were wicked memorable, they were green and, ummmmmm leafy. I think it talked, no wait, it sent a bunch of text to Link's PDA. Ok.
This. Had a bit of a crush on her as a kid. Video games are an interactive medium. Sometimes, a game will ask you to give a little. The characters and story in Zelda are as good as whatever you put between the lines. "
But I can remember being ten, trying to play Ocarina of time (Maybe it was Majora's mask) And not being amused by anybody in that game. I wasn't interested in the world and the characters didn't add anything worth remembering. Then, you move on in the story and have zero reason to remember what you did in the starting area. Apparently a large tree had told me to go do something.......... it was a cool tree, it had bark and stuff. It leaves were wicked memorable, they were green and, ummmmmm leafy. I think it talked, no wait, it sent a bunch of text to Link's PDA. Ok. "
Well apparently I had a lot more of an imagination at ten than you did.
This. Had a bit of a crush on her as a kid. Video games are an interactive medium. Sometimes, a game will ask you to give a little. The characters and story in Zelda are as good as whatever you put between the lines. "
But I can remember being ten, trying to play Ocarina of time (Maybe it was Majora's mask) And not being amused by anybody in that game. I wasn't interested in the world and the characters didn't add anything worth remembering. Then, you move on in the story and have zero reason to remember what you did in the starting area. Apparently a large tree had told me to go do something.......... it was a cool tree, it had bark and stuff. It leaves were wicked memorable, they were green and, ummmmmm leafy. I think it talked, no wait, it sent a bunch of text to Link's PDA. Ok. "
Well apparently I had a lot more of an imagination at ten than you did. "
There was nothing there for my imagination to grab on to, just multicolored polygons and wordy paragraphs. Alone in my own head I could use my imagination more. At least in my own head, their are people, and experiences with meaning for me to work around.
This. Had a bit of a crush on her as a kid. Video games are an interactive medium. Sometimes, a game will ask you to give a little. The characters and story in Zelda are as good as whatever you put between the lines. "
But I can remember being ten, trying to play Ocarina of time (Maybe it was Majora's mask) And not being amused by anybody in that game. I wasn't interested in the world and the characters didn't add anything worth remembering. Then, you move on in the story and have zero reason to remember what you did in the starting area. Apparently a large tree had told me to go do something.......... it was a cool tree, it had bark and stuff. It leaves were wicked memorable, they were green and, ummmmmm leafy. I think it talked, no wait, it sent a bunch of text to Link's PDA. Ok. "
Well apparently I had a lot more of an imagination at ten than you did. "
There was nothing there for my imagination to grab on to, just multicolored polygons and wordy paragraphs. Alone in my own head I could use my imagination more. At least in my own head, their are people, and experiences with meaning for me to work around. "
I guess you didn't game much in this era and genre, since you have such a distaste of words and polygons. This game has plenty of likeable characters, but I agree with Bellum, you have to give a little to get a lot back. Also, me and skull kid have always been close. Then he had to go and mess it up by trying to crash the moon into the world.
This. Had a bit of a crush on her as a kid. Video games are an interactive medium. Sometimes, a game will ask you to give a little. The characters and story in Zelda are as good as whatever you put between the lines. "
But I can remember being ten, trying to play Ocarina of time (Maybe it was Majora's mask) And not being amused by anybody in that game. I wasn't interested in the world and the characters didn't add anything worth remembering. Then, you move on in the story and have zero reason to remember what you did in the starting area. Apparently a large tree had told me to go do something.......... it was a cool tree, it had bark and stuff. It leaves were wicked memorable, they were green and, ummmmmm leafy. I think it talked, no wait, it sent a bunch of text to Link's PDA. Ok. "
Well apparently I had a lot more of an imagination at ten than you did. "
There was nothing there for my imagination to grab on to, just multicolored polygons and wordy paragraphs. Alone in my own head I could use my imagination more. At least in my own head, their are people, and experiences with meaning for me to work around. "
I guess you didn't game much in this era and genre, since you have such a distaste of words and polygons. This game has plenty of likeable characters, but I agree with Bellum, you have to give a little to get a lot back. Also, me and skull kid have always been close. Then he had to go and mess it up by trying to crash the moon into the world. "
Yea, I wasn't huge on games yet at that time. Basically, I played the occasional N64 game (Lots of Golden Eye, Super Mario 64) and Age of Empires, and Im sure I wasn't too pumped to get more involved when i saw games like Zelda that I couldn't stand.
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