317 CommentsRefresh
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Posted By isawachuck

WOO!

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Posted By Tary1966

wonder if jeff and dan would like fooly cooly season 2. Wish they watched it first then season 1 second to see if the hate for season 2 is nostalgia...like incredibles 2 or avatar show 2.

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Posted By speedpreacher

Anarchy in McDonalds

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Posted By Oprahtrain

Incredibles 2 is good guys

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Posted By liquiddragon

anyone interested?

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Online
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Edited By Three0neFive

As someone who's pretty heavily into GW2 and saw the drama go down firsthand, that was a very nuanced take on the issue that I haven't seen from many other outlets. Kudos, guys.

Also, to address Jeff's point and to give a little more context: This is absolutely not an indication of GW2 dying or the developers desperately trying to placate the players in some sort of last-ditch attempt to remain relevant. The game is healthier than ever, barring some really esoteric things like the in-game economy being wonky.

I think it's important to note that ArenaNet has, historically, been super involved in the community and welcoming of feedback. It's a large part of their public image and they're always hanging around in the subreddit doing AMAs and responding to random things (in fact Peter Fries, the guy who was fired in this event, was almost universally loved within the community because of this.) The guy who posted the initial feedback, Deroir, is essentially an official ambassador that works with ArenaNet to help foster community - this is a large part of why a lot of people were so upset, they felt that an attack (perceived or otherwise) on him was an attack on the community at large. His comments also weren't entirely random, the Twitter thread that Jessica Price posted was in effect a continuation of some answers she gave during an official AMA earlier that day. Whether or not his comments were particularly valuable or insightful is debatable, but he was absolutely engaging from a position of good faith.

That's pretty much the Guild Wars 2 side of things, at least as I'm aware. Then of course the Goobers saw an opportunity to use this event to push their own agenda and shit really started popping off. I'm absolutely not condoning any of that bullshit.

Personally, I've got conflicting feelings. Given their history and the public image they're trying to foster, I absolutely do not blame ArenaNet for taking the actions they did. But in doing so, they also (whether they know it or not) emboldened the assholes who piled on for more nefarious reasons. Do developers have an ethical obligation to act against their own self-interest in order to mediate these sorts of larger, industry-wide issues? If doing the "right" thing means potentially enabling bad things to happen down the line, is it still the right thing? I don't know, I'm not a developer or part of any sort of marginalized group.

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Posted By garbo91

It takes 6 months to paint half the golden gate bridge, 6 months for the other half. So once the crew is done painting the full bridge it is time to start over again. The gate is painted so much because of the salty air that would rust the metal incredibly fast if left unattended. There is an old History Channel's Modern Marvels episode on the bridge which is worth a watch

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Posted By Fear_the_Booboo

@vicious17: Load to unpack here but calling her a bitch for her comment is way out of line. TB was often praised for his cynical behaviour and made a brand out of it. He did hurt a lot of people that way and he still kept his status in the gaming industry. There’s kind of an hypocrisy in defending TB’s usual abrasiveness and acting like Price is out of line.

I didn’t say anything when he died, if you have nothing good to say shut up and all, but he would’ve been the first to agree that someone doesn’t become immune to criticism when they die (hell all “cynical” people would agree there). Price comments were in poor taste, but they were super tame compared to some stuff he and others men did in the video games industry. Most of them kept their job. Also she didn’t lose her job because of those comments anyway.

And she was wrong, people are still using his persona to hurt devs, still to this day.

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Posted By NickFoley

Oh snap that t-shirt!

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Posted By soundlug

@fear_the_booboo: He had cancer. Probably that was the main reason why he kept his status (and that he was more concerned about fighting it than internet drama in his last years)

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Edited By Owl_Face

Since you guys seem to not have all the facts or are unsure of all the details the person Jessica Price responded to was Deroir a well known content creator for GW2 (who is also an NPC within the game). She derided him and called him an "asshat" and dressed him down publicly after he was very civil in his statement. Ms. Price is a public spokesperson an has repeatedly taken this tone with players and the community ("Sure, dude. Now get out of my fucking feed with your assumptions and your entitlement to my time." - J. Price responding to another community member Inks civil comment).

Anyone who works in a service business can tell you that we all wanna talk shit on the customers from time to time, however it is understood; for the most part, you are an extension of the business in public speaking venues. Being extremely toxic to a very well known and liked community member in a public setting is 100% grounds for termination let alone having a history of it. I think the narrative that Ms. Price's firing was unwarranted is a faulty one, as this kind of public PR issue has historically proven to be the fastest ticket to the unemployment line if a story gets legs. My two cents anyway.

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Posted By Moderp

Dude I think this may be the last time I even bother reading comments lol

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Edited By dstopia

A developer is not a PR person and she was on her personal twitter account. This is why unionization is needed, to stop companies from abuses like these. Any other take is pretty much bootlicking nonsense high on some weird fantasy perpetrated by "the customer is always right" bullshit.

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Posted By soundlug
@dstopia said:

A developer is not a PR person and she was on her personal twitter account.

Lets not pretend that people had not lost their jobs for less by using their social media accounts

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Posted By dstopia

@soundlug: I really don't understand what your point is. No one should get fired for responding rudely on social media on their own time and while not being a representative of the company. Caving in like this to a hate mob is just going to make developers discuss their issues publicly even less for fear of getting harassed by a few bored redditors.

ArenaNet is just a chickenshit company run by cowards, and they've just ruined any chance that their developers will interact with the community through anything that isn't official PR channels. Which, ironically, is what they're saying they want to protect.

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Posted By how92

There's a Bigfoot game on the NES. It's really bad. The top down racing is okay at best, but the sidescrolling is bad. The controls are hitting A and B back and forth as fast as possible while also shifting gears. https://www.giantbomb.com/bigfoot/3030-7302/

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Posted By soundlug

@dstopia: She was a employee... she was a representative whatever she was PR or not.

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Edited By Three0neFive
@soundlug said:
@dstopia said:

A developer is not a PR person and she was on her personal twitter account.

Lets not pretend that people had not lost their jobs for less by using their social media accounts

Yeah, in principle this is exactly the same scenario as that Subnautica thing from a while back. I'm sure there are others too but I'm not a big social media person.

She can say it was her personal account all she wants, but in the end it was a public account in which she listed her affiliation with ArenaNet, and was publicly talking about the work that she does for ArenaNet. She said something that her employer deemed a risk to their brand, and was fired. We've been doing this song and dance for years now, it seems incredibly disingenuous to suddenly use the "people shouldn't be fired for saying things on social media" defense when, by and large, the same people decrying this were cheering those other firings.

@dstopia said:

ArenaNet is just a chickenshit company run by cowards, and they've just ruined any chance that their developers will interact with the community through anything that isn't official PR channels. Which, ironically, is what they're saying they want to protect.

I mean that's just blatantly untrue, there's been dozens of posts by ArenaNet employees in the subreddit since this went down, none of them relating to this incident at all. Mike O'Brien even released a statement saying that they're going to continue being involved in the community, and this incident has basically blown over everywhere that isn't mainstream outlets playing catch-up.

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Edited By mellotronrules

@dstopia said:

Any other take is pretty much bootlicking nonsense high on some weird fantasy perpetrated by "the customer is always right" bullshit.

i dunno- i'd like to echo that arenanet is 1000% in the wrong in this instance, and they deserve all the negativity that's coming their way as a result of their poor decision.

buuut i also think arenanet's response is 1000% typical. i've worked too many shitty jobs with too many shitty bosses to not know that your employer is not your friend- and push comes to shove- you are replaceable, always. the larger the group, the more this is true. it's a cynical view for sure- but it's based in experience. and it's an exceptionally rare employer that will go to bat for you over the consumer.

which is also why collective bargaining is so damn important, you're right. but so long as your employer can publicly view your social media- speaking your mind (no matter how justified) will always be a professional liability.

it triple sucks, but it's the way BUSINESS functions. without collective bargaining, the employer retains the ultimate power.

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Posted By ToySoldier83

I bet the youtube comments for this bombcast are more toxic than usual because of this Areanet fiasco.

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Posted By QStealth

LEEEESSSAAAAAA WOOOOOOO

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Edited By beau24

What do you expect when they just pull all their news from Polygon? An unbiased well written report? Lol

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Posted By Mittens

I can't understand why Price's firing is so controversial.

On a public Twitter account, clearly labeled "ArenaNet narrative team", she ridiculed a member of the community who's also an ArenaNet partner, stated clearly that she didn't value his (exceedingly polite) feedback on the game because he's not a developer, then said she would actively ignore this kind of feedback in the future. All in a very rude, abrasive manner while she kept piling on and he kept apologizing (for no reason).

She works at an MMO developer. Games that critically depend on community involvement. That's just a terrible lapse in judgement however you slice it.

Women are treated pretty badly in the games industry and that's terrible. But this is not one of those cases. Men have been fired for way less (remember Adam Orth?)

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Posted By ripelivejam

I see every issue is a black and white affair now. Maybe from some of her past history she could have not said some of the things she did and handled things more professionally (though her frustration was pretty warranted). But they also shouldn't have kowtowed so hard to the screaming internet cesspool and made an example of her, so to speak. That's going to set a shit precedent right there. Though I think the biggest mistake of all in the end will be me even touching this clusterfuck of a "discussion" with a 10ft pole. *sighs* Tuesdays!

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Edited By jamjyo

@mittens: Try explaining to a Google engineer how he/she could be doing his/her job better. There will be a high chance you'll be ridiculed, and the engineer won't be fired.

Gamers really do expect developers to bend their knees to them regardless of their stupidity, eh?

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Posted By MerxWorx01
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Edited By jamjyo

@merxworx01: Strange, it doesn't say that you'll be fired for replying to a stupid twit with a bad-bad word such as "an asshat".

Also, the example in the article describes how far Google is willing to go to create a welcoming environment for their own employees.

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Posted By Mittens

@jamjyo: Are you actually arguing that Google wouldn't fire an engineer that's causing a PR problem, after what happened 6 months ago? Of course he/she would be fired, if the engineer is very publically shitty about it and it becomes a story.

Gamers that play MMOs certainly expect developers to listen to their feedback, because that's how these games work. I mean, that's how all games work to a certain extent, but even more so for online-focused games, which are constantly changed and tuned in reaction to the opinion of the community. Which is why companies like ArenaNet constantly encourage feedback, and also why they're not thrilled when one of their employees goes out and says very publically "Fuck your worthless opinions" to their community.

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Edited By MerxWorx01

@jamjyo: You're right, it doesn't.

Ultimately it depends on where you stand on the Arenanet situation. If you feel that Price and Fries were fired due to breaking internal media policy per Arena Net's press release then there isn't much similarities at all.

But... if they were fired because people collectively brought the situation negative attention that the company didn't appreciate and firing an employee was to the employer the easier course of action. A quick and easy means of making the problem will go away, then these situations have a alot in common.

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Edited By MHSilver

I personally wouldn't have fired Price for her comments if I ran the company but she is not the first, nor will she be the last person to be fired for unprofessional conduct on social media.

Welcome to the new world. Don't tweet angry.

Ironically, nobody could have put the reality of the situation better than Jessica Price herself, well ahead of time:

No Caption Provided

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Edited By jamjyo

@mittens:

I should clear-up my position: I do think she was highly unprofessional, and could have handled the situation better, but I don't think she should have been fired.

@mittens said:

@jamjyo: Are you actually arguing that Google wouldn't fire an engineer that's causing a PR problem, after what happened 6 months ago?

It depends on the PR problem in question. I personally think the dude fired from Google did something way worse than what Price did, but to each their own, I guess. And Anet was VERY quick in firing her (+him), which suggests (I can only guess) that it was a knee-jerk reaction.

@mittens said:

@jamjyo:

Gamers that play MMOs certainly expect developers to listen to their feedback, because that's how these games work. I mean, that's how all games work to a certain extent, but even more so for online-focused games, which are constantly changed and tuned in reaction to the opinion of the community.

True, and most MMO companies put on this facade that they are always willing to listen to all feedbacks at all times, which I consider is a problem in itself. But do you really expect all employees in the company to be open to feedbacks 24/7 in their personal SNS account?

No matter how studios "claim" that they value feedbacks greatly, not all feedbacks are valuable, and what "the kind dude" sent certainly wasn't (kinda dumb, if you ask me).

And let's not forget, all MMOs have their own forums and PR personnel to direct such feedbacks to.

You shouldn't track down an individual employee to "kindly" send feedbacks and make a huge fuss when you aren't welcomed in his/her space.

This only happens in games and Star Wars.

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Posted By dgtlty

One hour in and it's been nothing but fighting games, anime, and wrestling

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Posted By RvanceTal

Most of the comments here are sad in the inability to see a spectrum of responses between nothing and “you are fired”. Speaks of a massive lack of imagination and also a speed in which one falls over to the narratives of power.

This is all before you factor in the fact that the president called it an ‘attack’?

Also in the most chickenshit move fire the other developer who was being courteous and sticking up for Price.

It all reads as scummy from top to bottom and it is emboldening a mob Fuck AreaNet and those who support this decision.

Avatar image for mittens
Posted By Mittens
@jamjyo said:

True, and most MMO companies put on this facade that they are always willing to listen to all feedbacks at all times, which I consider is a problem in itself. But do you really expect all employees in the company to be open to feedbacks 24/7 in their personal SNS account?

No matter how studios "claim" that they value feedbacks greatly. Not all feedbacks are valuable, period.

And let's not forget, all MMOs have their own forums and PR personnel to direct such feedbacks to. You don't track down an individual employee to make complaints and make a huge fuss when you aren't welcomed in his/her space.

Look I can sympathize with what she meant. I'm sure most developers roll their eyes at laymen's suggestion on their work, like all professionals do. And I'm sure she's had to deal with her fair share of assholes and harassers, which is depressing. I just think the way she did it crossed a line. If I'm a waiter, and I say to a coworker in the kitchen "Fuck people who don't tip 10%", that's fine; just work banter. If I yell it in the middle of the restaurant during my shift, even if I'm yelling it at the coworker, I'm probably getting fired. And that's what Twitter is: you're yelling something to the world.

Plus it's not like it was in response to her, say, discussing dinner plans with her SO. It was in response to a long post discussing character development in MMOs. On an account that she clearly associated with her job at ArenaNet. If she wanted it to be "her space", she should simply have made her account private. And if you can't bring yourself to answer politely to someone that says "Really interesting thread! I have to disagree with you *slightly*...", you should probably be kept away from any customer-facing aspect of any job.

This isn't 2005. Tons of company contracts have clauses that state that social media behavior that leads to bad PR can get you fired. And many people have been sacked for Twitter comments that look tame in comparison to this one.

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Edited By jamjyo

@mittens:

I actually agree with most things you said.

Yes, she was acting unprofessionally.

Yes, although it was a personal space, the concept of Twitter itself blurs the line.

Yes, her original post lead people to falsely believe that she was welcoming discussions.

I agree with all of that. I'm not trying to call you out, because I do see your point of view.

But the most important part of me and GB crews' (also guessing here) opinion on this matter is:

She shouldn't have been fired like this.

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Edited By schnoo

True, and most MMO companies put on this facade that they are always willing to listen to all feedbacks at all times, which I consider is a problem in itself. But do you really expect all employees in the company to be open to feedbacks 24/7 in their personal SNS account?

No matter how studios "claim" that they value feedbacks greatly, not all feedbacks are valuable, and what "the kind dude" sent certainly wasn't (kinda dumb, if you ask me).

And let's not forget, all MMOs have their own forums and PR personnel to direct such feedbacks to.

You shouldn't track down an individual employee to "kindly" send feedbacks and make a huge fuss when you aren't welcomed in his/her space.

This only happens in games and Star Wars.

This writer was posting publicly on twitter about something related to her job, after a AMA and the person she was responding to was a business partner of her employer, no one was tracked down. At no point was she obligated to respond to anyone. She could have stopped flinging shit around at any point after this thing blew up but she chose not to. If she didn't want feedback she should have posted her thoughts on a blog without a comments section, if she only wanted feedback from professional writers she shouldn't have made the posts on twitter.

The purpose of social media is for people to post in order to share their thoughts so that strangers can comment on them.

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Posted By Smeat

In regards to the Jan & NJPW segment, AXS TV airs a weekly NJPW show although its more of a recap style show than a weekly live show like WWE's RAW.

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Edited By SirPsychoSexy

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for Price. Her responses in that thread were completely awful. Yeah it might be a bit extreme to fire her, but I am sure many of us would get canned too if we went on twitter and started arguing with or accusing, well-meaning, polite customers of the companies we work for as being sexist. On top of that arenanet prides themselves on being very close and open with their community, so obviously this shit is not going to fly.

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Posted By RvanceTal

Did anyone read what the fan was posting further than the post she quote tweeted? It was a lot of basic stuff that her thread had already touched on prior to him chiming in.

People should listen to the Waypoint episode that is much more focused about this.

Avatar image for mittens
Posted By Mittens
@jamjyo said:

@mittens:

I actually agree with most things you said.

Yes, she was acting unprofessionally.

Yes, although it was a personal space, the concept of Twitter itself blurs the line.

Yes, her original post lead people to falsely believe that she was welcoming discussions.

I agree with all of that. I'm not trying to call you out, because I do see your point of view.

But the most important part of opinion on this matter is:

She shouldn't have been fired.

I disagree but that's fine. There are certainly other ways the company could have handled it. And I certainly don't feel great being on the same side of the argument as some pretty gross people. But to me this behavior is a fireable offence in most industries. Especially in the games industry, which too often sees its skilled workers as replaceable, regardless of gender (but that's a whole other problem).

I do agree that firing her coworker, someone who had been at the company for 10 years, just for defending her online was too harsh. Makes me wonder if they saw it blowing up into a gender issue and felt pressured to punish him harshly to avoid accusations of sexism. Either way it was unfair.

Shitty situation all-around

Avatar image for nietzschecookie
Posted By NietzscheCookie

Like clockwork, the lack of empathy Brad lamented in this podcast appears in the comments on the podcast. Its extremely telling how many people here just flat out ignore Fries' firing in attempting to explain the absurdity of Arenanet's actions. I think Price's firing is unconscionable as well, but don't have the energy to explain the dozen reasons why. I'll just echo the above that Waypoint Radio's latest can break this down in simple steps better than me.

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Edited By Onemanarmyy

Wow, Jeff just promoted Ben to head of marketing. Office on the corner! What an announcement! Congrats Ben!

Thought the arenanet conversation went pretty well. Only thing they missed to convey was that this was not a random twitter user but quite a community figure in that scene that's focused on the lore of the game. And it would've probably made more sense to listeners if they heard that this was an extension on an AMA about the game. Think a HR talk would've sufficed, personally.

If you're writing a multi-parted tweetchain about the struggles you encounter in your job to people as an extension of the AMA you did, people will respond to that. Not all those comments will be worthwhile. Ignoring those is always an option. No one demands a follow up tweet.

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Posted By BoneChompski

Ben Pack go on Chapo.

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Posted By stordoff

@dstopia said:

A developer is not a PR person and she was on her personal twitter account. This is why unionization is needed, to stop companies from abuses like these.

If you're talking about your work, and attacking customers, it doesn't really matter where you do it. If you're talking about your work in a public space, the company are going to have a say.

We don't know her disciplinary history, so I'm going to refrain from saying if she should have been fired. If it was a one-off event, maybe her being fired was excessive (though I can see it being construed as gross misconduct). If she has been warned about it before, maybe it was entirely justified.

Avatar image for rvancetal
Edited By RvanceTal

Something else lost in a lot of this discussion is the youtuber in question didn't see this like the community did and apologized for what he did. It was the mob who them spun it and whistled the interaction to an out of control point.

@stordoff said:

@dstopia said:

A developer is not a PR person and she was on her personal twitter account. This is why unionization is needed, to stop companies from abuses like these.

If you're talking about your work, and attacking customers, it doesn't really matter where you do it. If you're talking about your work in a public space, the company are going to have a say.

We don't know her disciplinary history, so I'm going to refrain from saying if she should have been fired. If it was a one-off event, maybe her being fired was excessive (though I can see it being construed as gross misconduct). If she has been warned about it before, maybe it was entirely justified.

"attacking customers"?!

So quick to take the corporate line on this one.

Avatar image for deactivated-5b85a38d6c493
Posted By deactivated-5b85a38d6c493

The only resson Mike O’Brien fired Price and Fries is because he’s a chickenshit and was afraid of the hate mob of sexist entitled man babies who were ”furious” over one rude comment and more importantly saw it as a golden opportunity to get a woman fired from the games industry.

Him and his company spinelessly caved in a matter of hours. Pretty pathetic honestly.

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Posted By stordoff

@stordoff said:

"attacking customers"?!

So quick to take the corporate line on this one.

"the next rando asshat", "Since we've got a lot of hurt manfeels today [...] Don't expect me to pretend to like you here." - how else would you describe it? You can say she had a reason to justify what she did, and that the ArenaNet response was disproportionate, but attacking customers is what she did. Taking the corporate line would be saying that ArenaNet were right to do what they did