Oldschool [analysis]: The Wii casual gamer is a myth.

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oldschool

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#1  Edited By oldschool

The mythical Wii casual gamer.
The mythical Wii casual gamer.














On internet forums across the globe we are constantly bombarded with stories and opinions on how the Wii is for casual gamers and casual gamers don’t buy anything but casual games.  In reality, does this really stand up to scrutiny?

What I intend to do is dispel the myth.
  Of course, just like proof that god doesn’t exist won’t change a religious person’s faith, nor will anything I put forward here change the minds of Wii haters, a religion in itself. 

 

Truth be known, I can’t prove anything as we all know the expression, “lies, damn lies and statistics.”  I am going to be using statistics.  The trouble with statistics is that we have to make assumptions and conclusions based on the figures.  This is no different.  You can’t really argue with the statistics, but you can argue against my assumptions and conclusions.

 

In order to explain where I am going, I will explain what I am doing.  I am directly comparing the sales of Gamecube games to those of the same game (or equivalent) on the Wii.  Based on this I will show that the casual gamer directed at the Wii is just plain wrong.  I didn’t go in with my conclusion first.  I first studied the data and the conclusion followed.

 

The Gamecube.

We all know the Gamecube was placed 3 in the last generation sales.  It finished on about 22 million units.  The assumption I am placing is that the majority of those owners were Nintendo hardcore fans, not casuals.  They bought it mainly for the big Nintendo franchises - Zelda, Mario, Starfox, Metroid, Pikmin et cetera.  Those were the games that sold the most.

 

The Wii.

We all know that the Wii is way ahead in 1 place in this generation sales.  It currently has more than 50 million units in the world market.  The internet and in some places, media assumption, is that the majority of Wii owners are casual gamers - kids and old people.  They only buy games like Wii Fit, Wii Music and play games like WiiPlay and Wii Sports, such as Carnival Games.

 

Assumption on Wii versus Gamecube owners.

Assuming that the vast majority of Gamecube owners continued are hardcore Nintendo fans continued their love and bought a Wii, we can conclude that perhaps 20 million Wii owners were Gamecube owners.  That means there are about 30 million new Nintendo owners.  Where did they come from?  Perhaps some old NES, SNES or N64 owners came back?  Xbox and PS2 owners suddenly decided that Nintendo was for them? 

 

More likely, completely new gamers entered the market?  A mixture of children and old people if you believe the internet.  People taken in by the clever Nintendo mass marketing?  Not very bright or discerning either it seems.  They are ruining the industry and they don’t buy proper games, just those mini-game compilations we are told.

 

If this is so, then it is appropriate to look at the comparative sales between systems and see what they show.  A point to remember, which will be mentioned for many of the games, is the wii sales are not complete.  We know that many Nintendo games are evergreens and they will continue selling right up until the end.

 

An additional assumption to keep in mind, is that those people that bought the game on the Gamecube are the ones most likely to buy the Wii version of the game.  Sales don’t just double because there are twice as many Wii consoles.  If they didn’t buy the Gamecube game, they are unlikely to buy the Wii version.  Remember, those additional 30 million owners are not supposed to buy traditional games.


Sales data is sourced form VGChartz.com

 

Nintendo 1st Party .

Mario Kart: sales

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
Wii   15.59m

GC   6.96m

Nearly 9 million new people bought Mario Kart.  That is massive.  One in three new gamers bought this. 

 



Super Smash Bros

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No Caption Provided
Wii   8.53m

GC…7.08m

An additional 1.5 million new gamers bought a game that can only be described as a pretty hardcore game.

 


Mario Party

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
Wii   6.49m

GC   [4] 2.47m   

[5] 2.08m   

[6] 1.63m   

[7] 1.53m


Total sales for 4 games on the Gamecube amounted to 7.7 million units.  One single version of the game on the Wii is just 1.2 million short.  Even the best Gamecube version is 4 million copies short.

 

Mario

No Caption Provided
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Wii…8.04m

GC…6.28m


Whilst Super Mario Galaxy hasn’t been the success many of has hoped for, it is still currently 1.7 million copies ahead of Super Mario Sunshine.  This is one game is one that will continue to grow and should easily top 10 million units.

 

Paper Mario

No Caption Provided
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Wii…2.75m

GC…2.05m

Not the big success  Nintendo would hope for, but still, 700,000 new gamers bought into the series.

 



Mario Strikers

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Wii…1.96m

GC…1.58m

Nearly half a million extra football players.

 



Mario Sluggers

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Wii…0.99m

GC…1.07m

A rare failure.   Still, it wasn't far off.

 



Mario Tennis

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Wii…1.22m

GC…0.55m

I added this for a particular reason.  These are the same games.  If you bought the game on the Gamecube, it is unlikely that you will buy the Wii version.  Yet, in a short space of time, the New Play version is almost half the sales of the Gamecube game.  The updated game will likely exceed the original.  It is safe to assume that most of these units are sold to the newcomers.

 

Animal Crossing

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Wii…2.93m

GC…2.98m

Sales of the Wii Animal Crossing have been disappointing, relatively speaking.  It has matched the Gamecube and will exceed it.  The cycnic will state that they are the same game and many Gamecube owners would not get the new one.  It  isn’t unreasonable to assume that the majority of buyers are new.

 

Zelda

No Caption Provided
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Wii…5.26m

GC…4.55m


Our beloved Zelda, the series so revered.  700,000 new owners, keeping in mind that another 1.5 million bought the Gamecube version.

 


WarioWare

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Wii…2.2m

GC…0.44m

They don’t come much more quirky or bizarrely Japanese in gaming than WarioWare.  It is hard to imagine a casual gamer wanting to play this, but yet, 1.8 million new owners did.

 



Metroid

No Caption Provided
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Wii…1.52m

GC…[1] 2.83m   

[2] 1.29m


On the surface, a disappointment.  1.3 million down on Metroid Prime.  However, Metroid Prime 2 was down 1.5 million, so Metroid Prime 3 took the game back up, with an increase of 200,000.

 

Pokemon

No Caption Provided
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Wii…1.32m

GC   2.54m



A big disappointment.  Perhaps they read the reviews.  I conclude that with home console games, Nintendo are testing the patience of Pokemon fans and this is the inevitable conclusion.

 

Fire Emblem

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No Caption Provided
Wii   0.41m

GC…0.16m



This is just plain sad for me, as a massive fan of the series.  It was one hell of a hardcore game and not for the faint hearted.  Yet, despite this, about a quarter of a million new people bought into it.

 

Battalion Wars

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
Wii   0.20m

GC…0.07m



Like Fire Emblem, this saddens me.  Another great game series, that gets no love.  It looks cutesy, but it is still a war game and managed to attract another 130,000 new gamers.

 

Conclusions:

The increases in sales from the Gamecube have been quite good and massive in the case of Mario Kart.  Theses are new gamers and they bought an additional 20+ million additional games, just on these titles.  That isn’t bad for so called casual gamers who only play Wii Sports and mini game compilations.

 

These newcomers are without a doubt growing the entire game sales base.  The statistics do not lie.  They are not all casual gamers.  Sure some are, but after they invest a large sum on the system, many of them will look for something else to try.  They will likely see the advertisements or ask friends and yes, they will buy the same games that many of you, like me, love and have played for years.  Plus, when they see games advertised in department stores, they are likely to be tempted.  It should have been obvious from the beginning that this would happen, but the sales deniers have persisited.

 

But what of 3 Party?  There are not a lot, but let’s look at what we can.

 

3rd Party

Resident Evil 4

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Wii…1.55m

GC   1.69m

Despite the 1.7 million owners of the same game from the Gamecube, and that fails to mention the near 3 million who bought it later on the inferior PS2, another 1.55 million gamers came out and bought the same game for the Wii.  Where did they come from?  I suggest that many of them are these newcomers who would not normally buy such a hardcore game.  Only so many gamers would duplicate from the Gamecube to the Wii.

 

Monkey Ball

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
Wii…1.23m

GC…[1] 1.37m   

[2] 1.35m



Like most series, game sales normally drop with each new version.  This is no different.  It held up well though.  Hard to draw any conclusions from this.

 

Madden

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
Wii   [07] 0.56m   [08] 0.93m   [09] 0.84m

GC…[06] 0.42m


The last version of the Gamecube is well down on all the Wii versions, by half in the last two occasions and as much as half a million units.

 

Tales of Symphonia

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
Wii…0.37m

GC…1.1m


So far, a big disappointment.  It hasn’t been released in a PAL region yet, so the comparison is still to early to show.  It still seems unlikely to match it.

 

Harvest Moon

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
Wii   [ToQ] 0.34m

GC…[AWL] 0.60m


Like Tales of Symphonia, PAL versions haven’t happened yet, but I would expect what is a vastly inferior Wii version to match and probably beat the Gamecube version.

 

Conclusions:

Due to the fact that most 3 party games are not just updated versions of last generation or sequels, comparisons are hard to make.  Madden certainly shows a significant boost.  I believe that a significant number of more traditional, non casual games are being bought by the newcomers.

 

Final thoughts:

The Wii casual gamer is a myth.  The statistics dispel it.  So many more games are being sold above what they achieved on the Gamecube and this is entirely attributable to the new Nintendo gamers entering the market and buying the games we have always been buying.

 

Of course, all this will mean squat to the Wii haters as it does not support their long held prejudice and hatred.  It is just denial.

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WilliamRLBaker

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#2  Edited By WilliamRLBaker

>_< the statistics dispel it?
They the statistics that the mario games *all of which are casual games and not hardcore by simple definition*  the new video game owners the system has brought in couldn't possibly be casuals could they?
Even your own statistics show that even the hardcore games *metorid prime, fire emblem, tales games* aren't selling nearly as much as the casual games mario, party games.

you posted no factual proof you simply posted VGchartz numbers then attatched so much speculation on your part then we're now drowning in your speculation,

P.S: I consider hardcore to be the simple amount of time one must invest in a game to see it through completion the mario games requireing so lil time to see them through to the end and only receiving any amount of time spent by choice and not actual requirement, Metroid prime, fire emblem, and the tales games require a much larger time requirement to see them through.

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oldschool

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#3  Edited By oldschool

These games are not casual games.  They are classic gaming franchises.  You really consider Mario casual?


Doesn't change the fact that nearly all of these games are selling at much greater rates than they did on the Gamecube.  This is proof that all these so called casual gamers are buying traditional, classic and yes, hardcore Nintendo games.  Fire Emblem had a significant growth (off a low base) and this is as hardcore as you can get - a game that can break you.  Those extra 250,000 people are newcomers (or at least the vast majority).

I should expect exactly what you posted Will.
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EvilTwin

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#4  Edited By EvilTwin
oldschool said:
"These games are not casual games.  They are classic gaming franchises.  You really consider Mario casual?"
It's kind of obvious.  Mario is a brand everyone knows.  And just because they're classic gaming franchises doesn't mean they aren't easy to pick-up-and-play.  So many of those Nintendo franchises you listed are very accessible to new users.  For the games they picked up that they might have had a little harder time with (like SMG perhaps?).  Who says they even finished them?  Tons of gamers start games and never finish them.  I have to imagine the newer and more "casual" gamers do this even more frequently. 
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oldschool

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#5  Edited By oldschool

Yes, but as well known a brand Mario is, it did not help the Gamecube with sales.  It is the power of the Wii that is bringing in new gamers and they are trying Mario games, as well as many others, for the first time.  The so called casual gamer is a myth as the sales from the Wii over similar games on the Gamecube, show that they are trying these classic franchises, plus many other games.  They are growing the business and buying the same games as everyone along the way.

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EvilTwin

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#6  Edited By EvilTwin

Riddle me this then.  How did Nintendo's market increase from 22 million to 50 million, yet software sales for most of those "core" franchises have seen a very small increase in this cycle, and none of the third-party stuff saw a significant increase at all, if it wasn't even less than the Gamecube sku.  People are buying things Nintendo puts out because of branding and marketing, period. 

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get2sammyb

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#7  Edited By get2sammyb

From flicking through your figures (well compiled), it's fairly apparent to me that the GameCube's 20 million moved onto the Wii and the additional 30 million are casuals. Looking at the likes of Smash Bros, you see barely any change, and I'd hazard Mario Kart was only such a success this time round because of the excellent promotion of the Wii Wheel. The games that have seen an increase in sales on Wii such as Wario Ware, all tout motion controls as a big selling point.

So I'd agree that perhaps just under half of the Wii's installed base are classic Nintendo fans (like ourselves). The other half are casuals.

That's what I got out of scanning through your figures.

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WilliamRLBaker

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#8  Edited By WilliamRLBaker

my god, YES MARIO is casual at any given mario game you can put 2-3 hours into it and beat it, It took me about 12 hours to complete SMG to 100% im talking every lil nook an and crany yes that is casual, nearly every game you have on your list is a casual game except 2-3 of them and those games when compared to the other games sell far short.

your sitting here trying to tell us that because games sold more then their gamecube iterations or parts that means they are not casual when thats crap since the Wii has outsold the gamecube worldwide on last checked which means many more people have access to these games so they are obviously going to increase in sales but that doesn't change them being casual games every game up there except a few are casual games by every definition of the word.

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HandsomeDead

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#9  Edited By HandsomeDead

You'd be so much better oldschool if you'd get off that high horse.

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oldschool

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#10  Edited By oldschool
HandsomeDead said:
"You'd be so much better oldschool if you'd get off that high horse."
And you would be so much better HD if you addressed more issues without you entrenched bias and dislike.   Nice avoiding the reality of the facts though.  I doubt you even bothered to really read it.  It is so much easier to dismiss when it fails to suit one's personal agenda.

Both you and Rich avoid the fact that Sammy sees.

get2sammyb said:
"From flicking through your figures (well compiled), it's fairly apparent to me that the GameCube's 20 million moved onto the Wii and the additional 30 million are casuals. Looking at the likes of Smash Bros, you see barely any change, and I'd hazard Mario Kart was only such a success this time round because of the excellent promotion of the Wii Wheel. The games that have seen an increase in sales on Wii such as Wario Ware, all tout motion controls as a big selling point.So I'd agree that perhaps just under half of the Wii's installed base are classic Nintendo fans (like ourselves). The other half are casuals.That's what I got out of scanning through your figures."
Yes, my point - the additional 30 million Nintendo gamers.  Where did they come from?  The PS2, the  Xbox, the PC, returning old Nintendo fans or just completely new gamers?  Most likely a mixture of the last two and a greater proportion of the last.  Keeping in mind, as I pointed out, the Gamecube sales are final, the Wii sales are continuing and many of them will grow for another 3 years yet, particularly if another possibly 50 million more consumers enter the Wii market and buy a lot of the classic, evergreen titles that Nintendo manage to keep on selling.  If we are to believe commentary here as a microcosm of the market (and obviously we don't), then many, many Gamecube owners did not buy the Wii as they didn't like the new direction.

My other point - the games these 30 million are buying.  There is growth virtually across the range of Nintendo games.  In the case of Mario Kart, 9 million more.  These games, which from that list are about 20 million of them, are being bought by consumers who ARE NOT traditional Nintendo gamers.  If they are so casual and they only buy mini game compilations, why are the sales so high?  It is because the casual gamer is a myth.

Who is buying all the new Mario Tennis games?  Who is buying the repeat of Resident Evil 4?  Where did the extra 250,000 people come from to buy Fire Emblem?  Who are the consumers doubling of Madden sales?  It is the mythical casual gamer.  If the myth is real, then the sales of the Gamecube titles into Wii sequels/new versions would not increase.

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joey

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#11  Edited By joey
oldschool said:
"Where did they come from?  The PS2, the  Xbox, the PC, returning old Nintendo fans or just completely new gamers? "
Completely new gamers.
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Diamond

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#12  Edited By Diamond

I don't know why you bothered to do this.  VGChartz is completely fabricated data, so right off the bat you're making assumptions based on no facts at all.  Wii's userbase is bigger, so unless 'true' hardcore/core games sell quite a bit more on Wii, you can assume that Wii has a larger portion of casual gamers than Gamecube.  Even Gamecube had its fair share of children / casual gamers.  A better comparison might be to compare the Wii game sales with other modern systems, and take into account installed bases.

Furthermore, Smash Bros is not a 'hardcore' game at all (Virtua Fighter and Street Fighter are more 'hardcore').  The Mario Sports titles are casual (then again, most sports titles are fairly casual).  Warioware is casual (well made game, and it has a broad appeal, but anyone can play it), and additonally the Gamecube Warioware game was a direct port of a GBA game, hardly a big pull.  Coupled with sales of stuff like Wii Play and Wii Fit, Wii has the most casual userbase.

What are you trying to prove anyways?  You can't prove anything to developers because they know what the real sales are.  You can't prove to other gamers because they don't care what your opinion on this is.  Are you trying to prove something to yourself?

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oldschool

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#13  Edited By oldschool
joey said:
"oldschool said:
"Where did they come from?  The PS2, the  Xbox, the PC, returning old Nintendo fans or just completely new gamers? "
Completely new gamers.
"
Agreed.

Diamond said:
"I don't know why you bothered to do this.  VGChartz is completely fabricated data, so right off the bat you're making assumptions based on no facts at all.  Wii's userbase is bigger, so unless 'true' hardcore/core games sell quite a bit more on Wii, you can assume that Wii has a larger portion of casual gamers than Gamecube.  Even Gamecube had its fair share of children / casual gamers.  A better comparison might be to compare the Wii game sales with other modern systems, and take into account installed bases.Furthermore, Smash Bros is not a 'hardcore' game at all (Virtua Fighter and Street Fighter are more 'hardcore').  The Mario Sports titles are casual (then again, most sports titles are fairly casual).  Warioware is casual (well made game, and it has a broad appeal, but anyone can play it), and additonally the Gamecube Warioware game was a direct port of a GBA game, hardly a big pull.  Coupled with sales of stuff like Wii Play and Wii Fit, Wii has the most casual userbase.What are you trying to prove anyways?  You can't prove anything to developers because they know what the real sales are.  You can't prove to other gamers because they don't care what your opinion on this is.  Are you trying to prove something to yourself?"
VGChartz are a respected data collection source.  If you would to show us all how they fabricate their figures, I would love to see it.

The data irrespective of whether you agree with the numbers or not is consistent.  That is consistent be it wrong or right.  Therefore the analysis remains correct, but of course you would dismiss it - it doesn't suit your point of view.  Deniers like yourself always do this.

The only way you can compare generations, is with direct apple for apple comparisons.  How many Mario Kart games sold on the Gamecube is directly related to how many sold on the Wii.  The games are much the same, the user base has changed.  Your are either blind or being deliberately ignorant for the sake of it.  If 20 million Gamecube users switched to the Wii, then the same amount of gamers would buy the Wii version of a game.  When you have an increase, in the case of Mario Kart of 9 million, then you have 9 million new users.  Who are they?  The are the so called mythical casual gamer.  

I am not denying that there are casual gamers.  What the data shows is that the casual gamer buys more traditional games than you want to admit, including Resident Evil, Fire Emblem and Battalion Wars along with all the colourful and fun Mario titles.  If you can't see that, then you never will.
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#14  Edited By Diamond
oldschool said:
VGChartz are a respected data collection source.  If you would to show us all how they fabricate their figures, I would love to see it.

The data irrespective of whether you agree with the numbers or not is consistent.  That is consistent be it wrong or right.  Therefore the analysis remains correct, but of course you would dismiss it - it doesn't suit your point of view.  Deniers like yourself always do this.

The only way you can compare generations, is with direct apple for apple comparisons.  How many Mario Kart games sold on the Gamecube is directly related to how many sold on the Wii.  The games are much the same, the user base has changed.  Your are either blind or being deliberately ignorant for the sake of it.
VGChartz are most certainly NOT respected among those that actually typically debate these things.  Forums like NeoGAF have even banned the term, and even those guys only pretend to know most of what the actual data is.  Go to NeoGAF, ask about VGChartz, see what comes of it.

The data has to be factual to base any correct assumptions off of it.  You think it's factual, but it's not.  That's all there is to it.

I think Mario Kart is a safer comparison than most, however you have to consider it has a strong casual appeal.  If it sold more or less on Wii is irrelevant.  Now if you could tell me how many gamers went out and rebought or hooked up a Gamecube controller to play Mario Kart Wii because they knew it was better control (like I did), then we could tell something about how big the Wii hardcore market is.

Why are you constantly resorting to personal attacks to attempt to make your point?

oldschool said:
If 20 million Gamecube users switched to the Wii, then the same amount of gamers would buy the Wii version of a game.  When you have an increase, in the case of Mario Kart of 9 million, then you have 9 million new users.  Who are they?  The are the so called mythical casual gamer.  

I am not denying that there are casual gamers.  What the data shows is that the casual gamer buys more traditional games than you want to admit, including Resident Evil, Fire Emblem and Battalion Wars along with all the colourful and fun Mario titles.  If you can't see that, then you never will.
You assume too much.  You oversimplify the number of Gamecube owners that bought a Wii (I assure you, the number of Gamecube owners who bought a Wii already is nowhere near 100%), you assume that everyone who bought Mario Kart Double Dash would buy Mario Kart Wii (can't even begin to express how many ways you're wrong there...)  The data you are quoting about the expanded users is worthless.  Finally even if you knew all that information, what would it tell you?  There's nothing about Mario Kart DD and Mario Kart Wii that tells you much of anything.  I like Mario Kart Wii a lot, for some reason I didn't like DD at all.

I have no problem with saying casual gamers buy some games.  They don't buy as many as hardcore gamers, and they buy different kinds of games, what does that mean?

I feel you'd like people to say if they released GTA on Wii, or Resident Evil 5 on Wii, it'd be at least as much of a success as on 360 or PS3, and I'd say that's obviously wrong and we both know it.  What's the point in argument about it?
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Discorsi

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#15  Edited By Discorsi

First and foremost.... Ugh. 

A better indication of how many hardcore gamers have/use a wii is the sales number of hardcore, new ip games compared to those that are on the 360/PS3.

And guess what... not even close despite the wii having a substantially bigger user base.

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EvilTwin

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#16  Edited By EvilTwin
Diamond said:
"VGChartz are most certainly NOT respected among those that actually typically debate these things.  Forums like NeoGAF have even banned the term, and even those guys only pretend to know most of what the actual data is.  Go to NeoGAF, ask about VGChartz, see what comes of it."
Oh come on, NeoGAF, really?  Want to know why they banned VGchartz? 

"Our numbers are right. Theirs are wrong. Period."

They behave like such spoiled children about some things on those forums.  "We don't like you so your name is banned on our website, neener neener neener."



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#17  Edited By FrEeZe

Mario Kart and the Mario Sports games are the only games on your list there that are still selling. And Mario "Anything" should be considered "casual" games.  Mario is widely known, and Mario Kart is a wide favorite for a majority of today's youth.

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oldschool

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#18  Edited By oldschool

Like to miss the point much Diamond?


I won't even address the VGChartz hating as you still miss the point.

I never said that the Gamecube to Wii was 100%

Assumption on Wii versus Gamecube owners.

Assuming that the vast majority of Gamecube owners continued are hardcore Nintendo fans continued their love and bought a Wii, we can conclude that perhaps 20 million Wii owners were Gamecube owners.

As the Gamecube had a 22 million+ ownership, and the use of the word "perhaps", meaning being generous, I used 20 million because it is a round number, easy to deal with and for the sake of debate, actually worked against me, not for me (overly conservative).  That indicates you didn't read it, but just scanned and filled in the blanks,

I never said that every Gamecube owner of a game would be the owner of the Wii equivalent game.  In fact, your position on this is counter-intuitive to your point.
An additional assumption to keep in mind, is that those people that bought the game on the Gamecube are the ones most likely to buy the Wii version of the game.
"Most likely"  Therefore, the real number is less.  Again, I am being overly conservative so as not to be accused of optimistic analysis.  Of the 7 million Mario Kart DD owners, only a percentage would have bought Mario Kart Wii.  Of the 16 million Mario Kart Wii owners, a figure somewhere less than 7 million also own Mario Kart DD.  That is my point and you agree.  There is at least 9 million new gamers that did nor exist before.  Hardly supports the casual gamer myth.  What it shows, is if you present them with a quality game, they will buy it.  If certain games do not sell, it is because they lack mass market appeal. 

Just because this new market does not buy as many hardcore games as the established market, does not mean they don't buy games.  The constant argument that this dispels is that the new market buys more than Wii Play, Wii Fit and Carnival Games.  It also shows why they are a force not to be ignored.  If developers make the right game and market it properly, then the new market will buy it, just as they have with Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros, Super Mario Galaxy, Mario Party, Mario Strikers, Warioware, Battalion Wars, Fire Emblem, Madden and Resident Evil 4.

They should make GTA (not IV, maybe a new Chinatown Wars) for the Wii.  It will sell, as would a companion piece to Resident Evil 5.  Not the same ported game though.  The assumption that the Wii market will not buy it is wrong and sales of games shows that.  Will they sell as many as the PS3 or 360?  Hell no, these are not mass market games and given a choice, almost every Wii owner would prefer to play those games on a 360 or PS3.

If you can't see the fact that the mythical casual gamer does not exist like the internet believes, then you never will.  It is just stubbornness to continue believing it.

Of course I can't bring other games into this as they have no comparative base to use.  You can't  sort out the Gamecube migrator from the new gamer.  Suffice to say, many non shovelware games have sold very nicely to both gamers I expect.
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#19  Edited By CoolDrMoney

"Casual", "Hardcore", and "Gamer" are still ugly, ugly terms. This continuing argument about the Wii's userbase and focus is also one of the most annoying things to come out of this generation of consoles.

Yes, the Wii has brought video games to the attention of a lot of people who hadn't cared about them before, or since they were children. Yes, Nintendo is headed in a different direction than they were previously, and it's working very well for them. Yes, a lot of people are justifiably disappointed with the games coming out for the system. Yes, a lot people are justifiably pleased with the games coming out for the system. Yes, when the retarded members of both of these groups get together it results in an endless stream of shitty threads about the quality of the system and the people who Nintendo are catering to.   

Aren't you a grown ass man? Why the fuck do you give such a shit about what people think about your favorite console? It's meaningless.

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#20  Edited By Red

Sorry, oldschool, but this was a horrible blog. First off, whenever someone says "casual" and "hardcore" I wanna kill a puppy. And I like puppies. Secondly: just because a game is developed by Nintendo, it doesn't mean it's hardcore. Mario Tennis, Mario Party and Mario Sluggers are nowhere near hardcore. Thridly, the one actually "hardcore" Nintendo game (Metroid Prime) sold much worse on the Wii than the Gamecube. 


Also, the increase of sales is because the Wii has the increased audience, and because of brand recognition. Everybody knows Mario and Zelda, so of course they'll buy them with their new console. Hey--if this is any proof, it's proof that the Wii has absolutely no "hardcore" fanbase. GTA: Chinatown Wars and MadWorld have given indisputable evidence that hardcore don't work on the wii.

And can we finally separate "hardcore" games and "good" games. There is a big difference.
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#21  Edited By oldschool
CoolDrMoney said:
Aren't you a grown ass man? Why the fuck do you give such a shit about what people think about your favorite console? It's meaningless."
Why yes, my ass has grown. :P

My interest is in statistical anaylsis and how it relates to myths.  Simple as that.  Data is fact, interpretation both subjective and objective.  The mythical Wii casual gamer is subjective.  I am laying out the objective that shows it to be wrong.  Some things from your years of training never go away.  This is a simple way for me to keep up my skills that I need to use in business as well.
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#22  Edited By Diamond
EvilTwin said:
"Diamond said:
"VGChartz are most certainly NOT respected among those that actually typically debate these things.  Forums like NeoGAF have even banned the term, and even those guys only pretend to know most of what the actual data is.  Go to NeoGAF, ask about VGChartz, see what comes of it."
Oh come on, NeoGAF, really?  Want to know why they banned VGchartz?  "Our numbers are right. Theirs are wrong. Period."They behave like such spoiled children about some things on those forums.  "We don't like you so your name is banned on our website, neener neener neener." "
Well for one, I can tell you they declared that Xbox 360 had sold 10 million hardware units about a year before it had done so.  The problem is they fabricate numbers out of thin air.  NeoGAF makes a lot of dumb assumptions, but some users will at least take the time to collect valid data from time to time.  I'm not saying NeoGAF is a great forum, they could NEVER have a discussion like the one we're having right here.  I'm just saying noone who knows even a bit of what they're talking about relies on VGChartz for accurate data.

oldschool said:
"Like to miss the point much Diamond?

I won't even address the VGChartz hating as you still miss the point.

I never said that the Gamecube to Wii was 100%

Assumption on Wii versus Gamecube owners.

Assuming that the vast majority of Gamecube owners continued are hardcore Nintendo fans continued their love and bought a Wii, we can conclude that perhaps 20 million Wii owners were Gamecube owners.

As the Gamecube had a 22 million+ ownership, and the use of the word "perhaps", meaning being generous, I used 20 million because it is a round number, easy to deal with and for the sake of debate, actually worked against me, not for me (overly conservative).  That indicates you didn't read it, but just scanned and filled in the blanks,

I never said that every Gamecube owner of a game would be the owner of the Wii equivalent game.  In fact, your position on this is counter-intuitive to your point.
An additional assumption to keep in mind, is that those people that bought the game on the Gamecube are the ones most likely to buy the Wii version of the game.
"Most likely"  Therefore, the real number is less.  Again, I am being overly conservative so as not to be accused of optimistic analysis.  Of the 7 million Mario Kart DD owners, only a percentage would have bought Mario Kart Wii.  Of the 16 million Mario Kart Wii owners, a figure somewhere less than 7 million also own Mario Kart DD.  That is my point and you agree.  There is at least 9 million new gamers that did nor exist before.  Hardly supports the casual gamer myth.  What it shows, is if you present them with a quality game, they will buy it.  If certain games do not sell, it is because they lack mass market appeal. 

Just because this new market does not buy as many hardcore games as the established market, does not mean they don't buy games.  The constant argument that this dispels is that the new market buys more than Wii Play, Wii Fit and Carnival Games.  It also shows why they are a force not to be ignored.  If developers make the right game and market it properly, then the new market will buy it, just as they have with Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros, Super Mario Galaxy, Mario Party, Mario Strikers, Warioware, Battalion Wars, Fire Emblem, Madden and Resident Evil 4.

They should make GTA (not IV, maybe a new Chinatown Wars) for the Wii.  It will sell, as would a companion piece to Resident Evil 5.  Not the same ported game though.  The assumption that the Wii market will not buy it is wrong and sales of games shows that.  Will they sell as many as the PS3 or 360?  Hell no, these are not mass market games and given a choice, almost every Wii owner would prefer to play those games on a 360 or PS3.

If you can't see the fact that the mythical casual gamer does not exist like the internet believes, then you never will.  It is just stubbornness to continue believing it.

Of course I can't bring other games into this as they have no comparative base to use.  You can't  sort out the Gamecube migrator from the new gamer.  Suffice to say, many non shovelware games have sold very nicely to both gamers I expect
I think you're the one missing the point.  You're grabbing numbers out of the air, even if they were valid numbers would still be meaningless to the argument you're trying to make.

I've read your posts thoroughly, and you're denying statements you just made :

"If 20 million Gamecube users switched to the Wii, then the same amount of gamers would buy the Wii version of a game.  When you have an increase, in the case of Mario Kart of 9 million, then you have 9 million new users.  Who are they?  The are the so called mythical casual gamer."

"I never said that every Gamecube owner of a game would be the owner of the Wii equivalent game.  In fact, your position on this is counter-intuitive to your point."


Now maybe you're just failing to be clear, or you're relying on semantics, but either way you're way off.  My position on this part of the discussion isn't one about Wii being hardcore or not, it's one about you making comments about things that you have no data to back up, and using flawed logic to analyze what baseless data you have.  To make it clear and consise, you vastly overestimate the number of Gamecube owners who have bought a Wii and you vastly overestimate the number of users that bought MKDD compared to MKWii.

I don't agree that Mario Kart Wii has sold 16 million copies, the real number is probably somewhere closer to 9 millionSource  I agree, only a few million people who bought DD probably bought MKWii.  Does that mean all the people who bought MKW but not DD are new gamers?  Absolutely not, not even close.  I for one only rented DD and didn't like it.  I own MKW...  Perhaps by now you can see just how wrong you are when you say  "There is at least 9 million new gamers that did nor exist before" based on the data you just stated.  There are barely more than 9 million owners of MKW in the first place!

How do you jump to this piece of 'logic' :  "Hardly supports the casual gamer myth."  Whatdoes that even mean?  Casual gamers will buy casual games.  Part of the problem people have with casual gamers is they won't branch out and buy titles that don't have a narrow appeal.  Getting a casual gamer to buy a game has nothing to do with quality, as evidenced by the sales of the Ubisoft Imagine game series, or Wii Play.  It's about making a non-threatening product and advertising the hell out of it.  It has nothing to do with quality.

"these are not mass market games and given a choice, almost every Wii owner would prefer to play those games on a 360 or PS3."  Now things get further confused.  Street Fighter, GTA, and Resident Evil are not mass market?  Since when does every Wii owner own a 360 or PS3?  Once again you make an assumption and don't even attempt to prove it.  Make a GTA for Wii and it won't sell very well, but not because they'd rather buy it on 360.

The casual gamer absolutely does exist.  You only have to walk into a Wal Mart or Gamestop to see that for yourself.  You only have to watch Oprah or Ellen.  You only have to see some news reports on CNN to see they exist.  You're the one being stubborn if you believe and entire portion of the market doesn't even exist.
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azteris

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#23  Edited By azteris
oldschool said:
"joey said:
"oldschool said:
"Where did they come from?  The PS2, the  Xbox, the PC, returning old Nintendo fans or just completely new gamers? "
Completely new gamers.
"
Agreed.

Diamond said:
"I don't know why you bothered to do this.  VGChartz is completely fabricated data, so right off the bat you're making assumptions based on no facts at all.  Wii's userbase is bigger, so unless 'true' hardcore/core games sell quite a bit more on Wii, you can assume that Wii has a larger portion of casual gamers than Gamecube.  Even Gamecube had its fair share of children / casual gamers.  A better comparison might be to compare the Wii game sales with other modern systems, and take into account installed bases.Furthermore, Smash Bros is not a 'hardcore' game at all (Virtua Fighter and Street Fighter are more 'hardcore').  The Mario Sports titles are casual (then again, most sports titles are fairly casual).  Warioware is casual (well made game, and it has a broad appeal, but anyone can play it), and additonally the Gamecube Warioware game was a direct port of a GBA game, hardly a big pull.  Coupled with sales of stuff like Wii Play and Wii Fit, Wii has the most casual userbase.What are you trying to prove anyways?  You can't prove anything to developers because they know what the real sales are.  You can't prove to other gamers because they don't care what your opinion on this is.  Are you trying to prove something to yourself?"
VGChartz are a respected data collection source.  If you would to show us all how they fabricate their figures, I would love to see it.

The data irrespective of whether you agree with the numbers or not is consistent.  That is consistent be it wrong or right.  Therefore the analysis remains correct, but of course you would dismiss it - it doesn't suit your point of view.  Deniers like yourself always do this.

The only way you can compare generations, is with direct apple for apple comparisons.  How many Mario Kart games sold on the Gamecube is directly related to how many sold on the Wii.  The games are much the same, the user base has changed.  Your are either blind or being deliberately ignorant for the sake of it.  If 20 million Gamecube users switched to the Wii, then the same amount of gamers would buy the Wii version of a game.  When you have an increase, in the case of Mario Kart of 9 million, then you have 9 million new users.  Who are they?  The are the so called mythical casual gamer.  

I am not denying that there are casual gamers.  What the data shows is that the casual gamer buys more traditional games than you want to admit, including Resident Evil, Fire Emblem and Battalion Wars along with all the colourful and fun Mario titles.  If you can't see that, then you never will.
"
Stopped listening.


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#24  Edited By oldschool
Red said:
"Sorry, oldschool, but this was a horrible blog. First off, whenever someone says "casual" and "hardcore" I wanna kill a puppy. And I like puppies. Secondly: just because a game is developed by Nintendo, it doesn't mean it's hardcore. Mario Tennis, Mario Party and Mario Sluggers are nowhere near hardcore. Thridly, the one actually "hardcore" Nintendo game (Metroid Prime) sold much worse on the Wii than the Gamecube. 

Also, the increase of sales is because the Wii has the increased audience, and because of brand recognition. Everybody knows Mario and Zelda, so of course they'll buy them with their new console. Hey--if this is any proof, it's proof that the Wii has absolutely no "hardcore" fanbase. GTA: Chinatown Wars and MadWorld have given indisputable evidence that hardcore don't work on the wii.

And can we finally separate "hardcore" games and "good" games. There is a big difference.
"
It's not a blog, though I did intend it to be :-)

You can;t have these discussions without the terms.  It is the terms and how wrong they are which is at the heart of my point.  It is why I constantly refer to the 'mythical Wii casual gamer'.  I deem, personally, hardcore as those really niche and hard to get into games that are a strain on your patience - a labour of love.  All games are really target market games or demographically positioned games.

The point of the exercise is not to debate whether games are hardcore or not, but rather that the new market is buying old games.  Naturally, then the argument becomes muddied by those with divergent paths.  I have proven conclusively with the data, that the new gamers are buying old games along with the new games (mini-game stuff).  A logical conclusion to that is that they are good for the market and should not be the point of ridicule and hate.

Your point really compliments mine - brand recognition.  A lot less people bought these 'well known' brands/games on the Gamecube because they couldn't be brought into the market (or went to the PS2).  With clever design and great marketing, Nintendo brought in more than 30 million new gamers and they are buying the old games.  The staticitics are what back that up and why I used them.

Of course they are not buying Madworld or House of Dead in any big numbers.  That is factually undeniable.  However, many of these new gamers are constantly migrating to other games.  It is the responsibility of the developers to tap into that whilst not dumbing down to them.

Can we also separate 'casual' and bad games (real shovelware).  There is also a big difference.
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#25  Edited By Diamond
Azteris said:
Stopped listening.
Yet you still bothered to reply.

oldschool said:
It's not a blog, though I did intend it to be :-)

You can;t have these discussions without the terms.  It is the terms and how wrong they are which is at the heart of my point.  It is why I constantly refer to the 'mythical Wii casual gamer'.  I deem, personally, hardcore as those really niche and hard to get into games that are a strain on your patience - a labour of love.  All games are really target market games or demographically positioned games.

The point of the exercise is not to debate whether games are hardcore or not, but rather that the new market is buying old games.  Naturally, then the argument becomes muddied by those with divergent paths.  I have proven conclusively with the data, that the new gamers are buying old games along with the new games (mini-game stuff).  A logical conclusion to that is that they are good for the market and should not be the point of ridicule and hate.

Your point really compliments mine - brand recognition.  A lot less people bought these 'well known' brands/games on the Gamecube because they couldn't be brought into the market (or went to the PS2).  With clever design and great marketing, Nintendo brought in more than 30 million new gamers and they are buying the old games.  The staticitics are what back that up and why I used them.

Of course they are not buying Madworld or House of Dead in any big numbers.  That is factually undeniable.  However, many of these new gamers are constantly migrating to other games.  It is the responsibility of the developers to tap into that whilst not dumbing down to them.

Can we also separate 'casual' and bad games (real shovelware).  There is also a big difference.
I agree the terms such as casual and hardcore have legitimacy.  People twist meanings and use terms derisively, and they're probably too general, but we as a community can and should expand upon them.  If someone doesn't like the word 'casual' or doesn't care about why certain games sell and what that means, you don't have to participate in discussion.

" I have proven conclusively with the data, that the new gamers are buying old games along with the new games (mini-game stuff)"  Obviously new gamers may pick up very hardcore titles, but not en masse.  I don't think the data even exists to prove a majority of Wii owners are interested in hardcore games, I'd go so far as to say the data proves that this is false.

The only migration that may exist and is somewhat supported by current data is that some new gamers may have bought a Wii, and later bought a 360 or possibly PS3.  This is the way GameBoy worked (and 'entry drug').  There is no public data that I know of to show how great any such movement might be, but I suspect it's fairly small.

I completely agree not all casual games are bad, far from it.  Bejeweled 2, Peggle, Wario Ware Smooth Moves...  Then there's the real shovelware, stuff like Imagine Babyz...
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azteris

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#26  Edited By azteris
Diamond said:
"Azteris said:
Stopped listening.
Yet you still bothered to reply.
Listening to an argument and forming a response to their assertion is obviously the same amount of work as hitting post and typing two words.

Right?
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#27  Edited By Diamond
Azteris said:
"Diamond said:
"Azteris said:
Stopped listening.
Yet you still bothered to reply.
Listening to an argument and forming a response to their assertion is obviously the same amount of work as hitting post and typing two words.Right?"
So basically you're just trying to up your post count while being a drain on the community?  Good for you, now leave.
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azteris

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#28  Edited By azteris
Diamond said:
"Azteris said:
"Diamond said:
"Azteris said:
Stopped listening.
Yet you still bothered to reply.
Listening to an argument and forming a response to their assertion is obviously the same amount of work as hitting post and typing two words.Right?"
So basically you're just trying to up your post count while being a drain on the community?  Good for you, now leave."
No, I was pointing out his blatant inconsistency.

Sick burn, though.
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#29  Edited By oldschool
Diamond said:
"Azteris said:
"Diamond said:
"Azteris said:
Stopped listening.
Yet you still bothered to reply.
Listening to an argument and forming a response to their assertion is obviously the same amount of work as hitting post and typing two words.Right?"
So basically you're just trying to up your post count while being a drain on the community?  Good for you, now leave."
We agree.

Making bold one sentence and responding to it out of context is quite silly.  There is a difference between a casual and and the casual gamer myth, within the context of the debate.  A casual gamer, just likes games that don't require a lifelong commitment.  A lot of casual gamers are migrating into the group known as tourists, liking what may be perceived as a hardcore game, but can be played in short bursts.  The casual gamer myth is that the casual gamer never buys anything except mini-game compilations.  That myth is busted.  To what degree is the only debate.
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#30  Edited By AndrewGaspar

The new Mario Kart is NOT hardcore. I have barely played Mario Kart at all and 150cc is barely a challenge at all.

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azteris

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#31  Edited By azteris
oldschool said:
"Diamond said:
"Azteris said:
"Diamond said:
"Azteris said:
Stopped listening.
Yet you still bothered to reply.
Listening to an argument and forming a response to their assertion is obviously the same amount of work as hitting post and typing two words.Right?"
So basically you're just trying to up your post count while being a drain on the community?  Good for you, now leave."
We agree.

Making bold one sentence and responding to it out of context is quite silly.  There is a difference between a casual and and the casual gamer myth, within the context of the debate.  A casual gamer, just likes games that don't require a lifelong commitment.  A lot of casual gamers are migrating into the group known as tourists, liking what may be perceived as a hardcore game, but can be played in short bursts.  The casual gamer myth is that the casual gamer never buys anything except mini-game compilations.  That myth is busted.  To what degree is the only debate.
"
Your debate is even less relevant than I had thought then.

Honestly, an argument that pedantic in nature is really that important to you? (your numbers show that your point, even if correct, isn't a large one)
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Al3xand3r

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#32  Edited By Al3xand3r

All I read above is
"Holy shit oldschool, you made a topic that won't bring world peace or feed African children, in a gaming forum. What's wrong with you?"

It's games. They're not important. Yet people like talking about them. Deal with it. Or uh, don't. Bye?

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oldschool

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#33  Edited By oldschool
Al3xand3r said:
"All I read above is
"Holy shit oldschool, you made a topic that won't bring world peace or feed African children, in a gaming forum. What's wrong with you?"It's games. They're not important. Yet people like talking about them. Deal with it. Or uh, don't. Bye?"
Not important?  

What would we do without them?

You're right though.  Discussions online are purely academic.  They do nothing but entertain us and fill in our day.  It is just community and we like talking to people.  What I never understand is when people become so involved in someone else's point of view, that it makes them angry.  It is rare that I can't see the point someone is making, even if I disagree.  If I don't care, then I usually opt out after reading a couple of opinions.

Atz, my background is in marketing.  My interest is statistical analysis and demographics.  I find the terms misused and interpretations of data interesting.  The fact that so many misuse and overstate terms like casual gamer interest me. 


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get2sammyb

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#34  Edited By get2sammyb
joey said:
"oldschool said:
"Where did they come from?  The PS2, the  Xbox, the PC, returning old Nintendo fans or just completely new gamers? "
Completely new gamers.
"
Yes. Those extra players are probably people that have never touched a video game before. And if they have chances are they were probably Singstar/Eye Toy/Fifa players. The fact is, the Wii has been such a success because it opened up a playing style to brand new players. And that's why the motion control games with big marketing pushes have sold so much better.

A bigger audience always means a bigger scope for sales. Someone might go into GAME and end up buying Fire Eblem because the box looks good.

As for Mario Tennis, that got a big marketing push.
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#35  Edited By oldschool
get2sammyb said:
"joey said:
"oldschool said:
"Where did they come from?  The PS2, the  Xbox, the PC, returning old Nintendo fans or just completely new gamers? "
Completely new gamers.
"
Yes. Those extra players are probably people that have never touched a video game before. And if they have chances are they were probably Singstar/Eye Toy/Fifa players. The fact is, the Wii has been such a success because it opened up a playing style to brand new players. And that's why the motion control games with big marketing pushes have sold so much better.A bigger audience always means a bigger scope for sales. Someone might go into GAME and end up buying Fire Eblem because the box looks good.As for Mario Tennis, that got a big marketing push."
It is always good to read someone who sees the new players as not being the cataclysmic end of gaming.  

A good point I would like to pickup on.
.......... because the box looks good.
This cannot be underestimated.  Just as some gamers will think twice about a game that looks too 'nice', others will avoid a game that looks too aggressive.  Without a doubt, the market research that companies are getting is determining what a game 'looks' like.  Colour and cute are the order of the day.  We, as consumers,  are persuaded by packaging, even if it is at a subconscious level.  Just look at the photographs on frozen meals and tell me you aren't attracted to the one that looks good.  That cheap, generic one with the slightly odd photograph just doesn't look appealing.

The Wii has a happy image.  That is what the market wants.  I personally could care less, as like everyone here, I buy on research, not on uneducated impulse.  You will see more and more established games get a makeover (Queer eye for the gamer guy) as the market is changing.  Just look at games from the late 80's to early 90's to see how much packaging artwork has changed.

Another point is the wiimote.  Love it or hate it (I love it), these newcomers who didn't migrate from the PS2, probably find all the buttons and levers a mystery and not user friendly.  The whole wiimote is user friendly and not scary.  By using the wiimote on Mario Tennis, then these new gamers have a lot more fun.  Once comfortable with Wii Sports, they are more likely to be willing to try other games and that is happening.  It is showing up in the sales.  Without a doubt, they are buying other games.  The wife probably sees a Call of Duty game and thinks, my husband would like that and the migration continues.  This is an evolution.
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azteris

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#36  Edited By azteris
oldschool said:
"Al3xand3r said:
"All I read above is
"Holy shit oldschool, you made a topic that won't bring world peace or feed African children, in a gaming forum. What's wrong with you?"It's games. They're not important. Yet people like talking about them. Deal with it. Or uh, don't. Bye?"
Not important?  

What would we do without them?

You're right though.  Discussions online are purely academic.  They do nothing but entertain us and fill in our day.  It is just community and we like talking to people.  What I never understand is when people become so involved in someone else's point of view, that it makes them angry.  It is rare that I can't see the point someone is making, even if I disagree.  If I don't care, then I usually opt out after reading a couple of opinions.

Atz, my background is in marketing.  My interest is statistical analysis and demographics.  I find the terms misused and interpretations of data interesting.  The fact that so many misuse and overstate terms like casual gamer interest me. 


"
How exactly do you qualify misuse?

They're buzzwords that lost meaning as soon as marketing people got a hold of them.
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oldschool

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#37  Edited By oldschool
Azteris said:
"oldschool said:
"Al3xand3r said:
"All I read above is
"Holy shit oldschool, you made a topic that won't bring world peace or feed African children, in a gaming forum. What's wrong with you?"It's games. They're not important. Yet people like talking about them. Deal with it. Or uh, don't. Bye?"
Not important?  

What would we do without them?

You're right though.  Discussions online are purely academic.  They do nothing but entertain us and fill in our day.  It is just community and we like talking to people.  What I never understand is when people become so involved in someone else's point of view, that it makes them angry.  It is rare that I can't see the point someone is making, even if I disagree.  If I don't care, then I usually opt out after reading a couple of opinions.

Atz, my background is in marketing.  My interest is statistical analysis and demographics.  I find the terms misused and interpretations of data interesting.  The fact that so many misuse and overstate terms like casual gamer interest me. 


"
How exactly do you qualify misuse? They're buzzwords that lost meaning as soon as marketing people got a hold of them."
No, they are misused by gamers, usually to support their own views and denigrate those they don't like.
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#38  Edited By AgentJ

I think that there are quite a number of people that play the Wii casually, though they dont normally look as good as the fine ladies Nintendo puts in their promotional material...

Anyway, whether or not there are a lot of gaming "newbs" isn't going to prevent me from enjoying my games. Why would I care who else is playing the system as long as i enjoy it more than they do?
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#39  Edited By Godwind
Diamond said:
I don't agree that Mario Kart Wii has sold 16 million copies, the real number is probably somewhere closer to 9 millionSource  I agree, only a few million people who bought DD probably bought MKWii.  Does that mean all the people who bought MKW but not DD are new gamers?  Absolutely not, not even close.  I for one only rented DD and didn't like it.  I own MKW...  Perhaps by now you can see just how wrong you are when you say  "There is at least 9 million new gamers that did nor exist before" based on the data you just stated.  There are barely more than 9 million owners of MKW in the first place!
That source is old.  Its from February 2nd 2009.  New Quarterly reports probably came in.  Those numbers were also discussions that occured in 2008.  It 4 more months to sell its product.

To be fair though, VGchartz is probably inaccurate.
Mario Kart Update
According to VGChartz, the game sold 15 million units and the last update was August 08.

Compared to a report later made into that year that was made in October.
Nintendo Sales Report
According to the sales report made by Nintendo, they sold 9.53 million units.
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#40  Edited By Godwind
Diamond said:
I don't agree that Mario Kart Wii has sold 16 million copies, the real number is probably somewhere closer to 9 millionSource  I agree, only a few million people who bought DD probably bought MKWii.  Does that mean all the people who bought MKW but not DD are new gamers?  Absolutely not, not even close.  I for one only rented DD and didn't like it.  I own MKW...  Perhaps by now you can see just how wrong you are when you say  "There is at least 9 million new gamers that did nor exist before" based on the data you just stated.  There are barely more than 9 million owners of MKW in the first place!
That source is old.  Its from February 2nd 2009.  New Quarterly reports probably came in.  Those numbers were also discussions that occured in 2008.  It 4 more months to sell its product.

To be fair though, VGchartz is probably inaccurate.
Mario Kart Update
According to VGChartz, the game sold 15 million units and the last update was August 08.

Compared to a report later made into that year that was made in October.
Nintendo Sales Report
According to the sales report made by Nintendo, they sold 9.53 million units.
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Al3xand3r

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#41  Edited By Al3xand3r

Mario Kart is consistently @ top charts so long after release so even if it's not @ that number now, it probablly will be soon enough.

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#42  Edited By Shadow2K6
AndrewGaspar said:
"The new Mario Kart is NOT hardcore. I have barely played Mario Kart at all and 150cc is barely a challenge at all."

Agreed.  I was very disappointed in it.  Nintendo did really dumb it down.  That is the one problem with making games accessible for everyone, they end up just dumbing down the gameplay.

Also Mario is casual.  Just like GTA, Halo, and many other mainstream franchises are casual.
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#43  Edited By Al3xand3r
Shadow2K6 said:
"AndrewGaspar said:
"The new Mario Kart is NOT hardcore. I have barely played Mario Kart at all and 150cc is barely a challenge at all."
Agreed.  I was very disappointed in it.  Nintendo did really dumb it down.  That is the one problem with making games accessible for everyone, they end up just dumbing down the gameplay.Also Mario is casual.  Just like GTA, Halo, and many other mainstream franchises are casual."
I think that's his point, that Mario is no more casual than GTA or whatever the mainstream gamers consider hardcore just because they love it. And Mario Kart, well, it always was accessible. Plus you have a few decades of experience on it. When you had the press and gamers slamming awesome games like F-Zero GX cos they were too hard,  of course most will be made easy... I know that was by SEGA and not Nintendo but still.
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#44  Edited By VaultBoy
CoolDrMoney said:
"Yes, the Wii has brought video games to the attention of a lot of people who hadn't cared about them before, or since they were children. Yes, Nintendo is headed in a different direction than they were previously, and it's working very well for them. Yes, a lot of people are justifiably disappointed with the games coming out for the system. Yes, a lot people are justifiably pleased with the games coming out for the system. Yes, when the retarded members of both of these groups get together it results in an endless stream of shitty threads about the quality of the system and the people who Nintendo are catering to."
So fucking true.
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#45  Edited By oldschool
VaultBoy said:
"CoolDrMoney said:
"Yes, the Wii has brought video games to the attention of a lot of people who hadn't cared about them before, or since they were children. Yes, Nintendo is headed in a different direction than they were previously, and it's working very well for them. Yes, a lot of people are justifiably disappointed with the games coming out for the system. Yes, a lot people are justifiably pleased with the games coming out for the system. Yes, when the retarded members of both of these groups get together it results in an endless stream of shitty threads about the quality of the system and the people who Nintendo are catering to."
So fucking true."
Yes, pithy insults aside, both of you clearly don't read and miss the point completely.  Too busy trying to act cool I guess.

So you know, it isn't about the quality of the games, it isn't about the quality of the system.  Take notes now.  It is about how the so called Wii casual gamer who buys nothing but mini-game compilations, if any games at all after Wii Sports and Wii Play, is that, a myth.  They buy lots of games as the increase in franchise sales proves.  Who else is buying all the extra games?
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#46  Edited By End_Boss

Another console defense thread. This one was eloquent, yes, but still tragic.

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#47  Edited By Mushir

The think we should let the Mythbusters handle this myth.

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#48  Edited By get2sammyb

The thing is though, the fact that some casual players are getting into gaming via the Wii, doesn't necessarily make the system any better for me. I know this is a worn out argument, and people are going to spin off a list of games at me -- I know what they are, I'm a Nintendo fanboy (well SEGA first) and I actively seek out content for my Wii to no avail. Yes, I could have bought Madworld, but after mediocre reviews and price near to a PS3 game (which in my opinion offers me with so much more) I didn't.

Likewise, House Of The Dead: Overkill lasted me about 6 hours. Now I know rails games are supposed to be short and replayable so perhaps I'm not making a very valid point here.

For me, a lifetime Nintendo fan, the Wii is in a difficult place. Not only are Nintendo having to learn how to make games accessible to their mass amount of fans AND their new casual audience, but they're also having to find ways to make a new control scheme work, which, I don't think works very well at all on the main level. I'm not denying swinging an arm around in Wii Tennis isn't fun at parties (it is, anyone who says it isn't is a silly billy) - but is that what I want from my games all the time? It's not. I understand the masses are getting fun out of the Wii but sadly I'm not, and this has just been epitomised by the moment I bought a PS3. To me, the gulf between the systems is outrageous - to the point where I think everything Wii related is severely over priced.

I will be buying Punch-Out!! and will be interested to see how as a £30 purchase it will hold up against a £35-comparative PS3 game -- and don't come here claiming I can't compare Wii with the PS3; when I'm spending a similar amount of cash on a video game, regardless of the system I can compare.

Now I like Wii Fit. I like Wii Sports. And I think Super Mario Galaxy is without a doubt the best game that's been released this generation. But I don't think the Wii, or a majority of its catalogue, are reasonably priced. Nintendo are holding this generation by the balls and it scares me. If this is indeed the future, I'm sorry, but I want nothing more to do with video games. Yes I like my Wii for parties, 20 minute time fillers, and Super Mario Galaxy, but, I'm sorry - it does nothing else for me.

EDIT: That had absolutely nothing to do with anything did it?

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#49  Edited By Al3xand3r

If you don't want ppl pulling lists then you shouldn't make generalised comments about the games' value. Just say you don't like them. There are plenty of games that last over 6 hours, plenty of games that aren't necessarily casual, and "that" thread has plenty of them included. You can say you personally don't like the library and that's fine with me, but asking people to not start listing games when you judge the whole library in a few short lines as inadequate or lesser in ways that go beyond personal opinion, is counter intuitive. Nobody's gonna tell you that you should like a game you don't, but all that attitude I see people having where they basically present their opinion in ways that imply anyone who disagrees is a casual, or in this case someone who wastes money for lesser things when he could be getting better, is getting tiring. Especially when they ask to not be argued with right at the start of their post. Of course, this all pretty much completely off topic in this thread, but yeah. You started it >_>

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#50  Edited By oldschool
End_Boss said:
"Another console defense thread. This one was eloquent, yes, but still tragic."
Thank you for judging my prose as eloquent :-)   That's all I read :P

get2sammyb said:
read above.
I am not in any way going to disagree with Sammy.  I can relate in part.  I also am waiting for a really special game for me.   Sure, SSBM, Animal Crossing & Mario Kart as exclusives rocked my boat, I am still waiting for something different.  I don't lack any confidence that it will come.

Al3xand3r said:
"If you don't want ppl pulling lists then you shouldn't make generalised comments about the games' value. Just say you don't like them. There are plenty of games that last over 6 hours, plenty of games that aren't necessarily casual, and "that" thread has plenty of them included. You can say you personally don't like the library and that's fine with me, but asking people to not start listing games when you judge the whole library in a few short lines as inadequate or lesser in ways that go beyond personal opinion, is counter intuitive. Nobody's gonna tell you that you should like a game you don't, but all that attitude I see people having where they basically present their opinion in ways that imply anyone who disagrees is a casual, or in this case someone who wastes money for lesser things when he could be getting better, is getting tiring. Especially when they ask to not be argued with right at the start of their post. Of course, this all pretty much completely off topic in this thread, but yeah. You started it >_>"
Thing is Alex, this is where these topics go off the rail.  The list wasn't about games, it was about sales and who is buying them.  I make no value judgement on any of the games.

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