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    The Xbox One is Microsoft's third video game console. It was released on November 22nd 2013 in 13 countries.

    Turn 10: Cloud allows for 600% bump in Forza A.I.

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    BRich

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    @charlie_victor_bravo: I worked as a researcher in radiology at the NIH and we took advantage of a supercomputer cluster almost identical to Azure. Running thousands and thousands on CT scans through "training" would take days on my single fast computer, but offloading this processing to the cloud could accomplish the same task in under an hour. This sounds similar to the A.I. training going on with Forza 5, and it makes me incredibly optimistic about the future on Xbox one and Azure if a launch game is already going this far.

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    isomeri

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    #52  Edited By isomeri

    @extomar said:

    Umm, by definition AI design comes from the designers and is executed by a computer. It maybe based upon what people do and behave but the result is still artificial.

    So fun thought experiment: Exactly what needs to be improved about driver behavior over Forza 4? Although having this feature isn't bad it isn't that important either since you could do what you did a decade ago.

    If I'm not mistaken Turn 10 has been discussing how the AI drivetars will be chosen based on how you drive. So say if you'r the kind of racer who likes to take chances and bump around the track then you'd be assigned more aggressive AI. On the other hand if you like to avoid contact and stick to the racing lines then perhaps you'd see AI drivers who will respect "the rules of the race" a little more. And studying what people do and how they behave could enable the AI drivers to do slightly more "human" errors, like taking a turn a bit too wide or misjudging the angle of a corner and going on the grass.

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    Dark

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    OMIGOSH, ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT XBONE HAS BLAST PROCESSING?

    MICROSOFT DO WHAT SOWONT!!!!

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    enemaems

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    What worries me about this is does this mean if you play Forza 5 without being on Live, the AI is complete shit? With MS back-pedaling on the original design structure of the Xbone, it has to hurt how developers are going to make games for the system now. Just look at how many copies that the disc version of Minecraft just sold, a game that has been on Live Arcade for quite some time. That tells me that there are a lot of people out there who still don't have their console hooked up to the Internet.

    I personally feel that all of the negativity MS is receiving right now is due to their complete lack of structure and focus on their new $500 console (forcing Kinect on everyone is also leaving a sour taste in a lot of mouths). Everything thing they say has everyone questioning if its true or not. I've been down on them for quite some time since their idea of a console is not for me (I prefer games come 1st, not TV/ads/apps/etc.), but that doesn't mean I want them to fail. Competition is great for business. If it wasn't for the 360, the PS4 wouldn't be what it is.

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    sarahsdad

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    As an exercise, I'd be curious to see the formula they used to arrive at 600%, and see how far down that drops for someone whose friends don't play Forza. If you play offline, does it drop down to being only 80 or 90% better? Inquiring minds want to know ! ! ! Seriously though, it sounds like a cool idea that I hope pans out for them, and leads to other devs trying similar things.

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    TheSouthernDandy

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    #56  Edited By TheSouthernDandy

    I'm really looking forward to people getting their hands on it and being able to see what can be done with it. All I read online is people talking about how great it is to be able to use those resources and people saying how its all marketing bullshit. It seems to be devs on one side and trolls like @darji on the other and the back and forth is getting tiresome. Solid examples would be cool. From how it's being discussed it sounds super rad, hopefully it pans out.

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    Darson

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    So singleplayer has the possibility of acquiring network lag.

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    HerbieBug

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    I don't know what 600% better than mediocre is.

    Ditto.

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    Darji

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    @darson said:

    So singleplayer has the possibility of acquiring network lag.

    No. All it does its downloading driving behaviors from a server. These guys up there are just dreaming and believe the 600% bullshit.^^

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    AlexGlass

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    #60  Edited By AlexGlass

    @enemaems said:

    What worries me about this is does this mean if you play Forza 5 without being on Live, the AI is complete shit? With MS back-pedaling on the original design structure of the Xbone, it has to hurt how developers are going to make games for the system now. Just look at how many copies that the disc version of Minecraft just sold, a game that has been on Live Arcade for quite some time. That tells me that there are a lot of people out there who still don't have their console hooked up to the Internet.

    I personally feel that all of the negativity MS is receiving right now is due to their complete lack of structure and focus on their new $500 console (forcing Kinect on everyone is also leaving a sour taste in a lot of mouths). Everything thing they say has everyone questioning if its true or not. I've been down on them for quite some time since their idea of a console is not for me (I prefer games come 1st, not TV/ads/apps/etc.), but that doesn't mean I want them to fail. Competition is great for business. If it wasn't for the 360, the PS4 wouldn't be what it is.

    I don't think people without broadband internet should purchase and Xbox One. Just because they dropped the DRM requirement isn't going to change that MS designed the X1 and has plans for an always connected system.

    I don't get the" complete lack of structure and focus". Their plan is actually pretty obvious. They want an online console, they want to push and innovate with new methods of input in Kinect, and also allow for games that appealed to ALL gamers, the core, hardcore and the 100 million user base Wii crowd and they want to introduce cloud gaming and get everyone to go digital. And on top of that they want you to watch Netflix, get on Facebook, surf the net, call your grandma on Skype and watch NFL football. All while using their ONE console. It's been MS's goal and focus since before they entered the games industry and I think they are closer than ever to their goal of being at the center of your living room as well as everywhere else. They wanted to go from being Windows for your computer room(PC), to the Windows of your games room(Xbox, PC), to the Windows of your living room(360, PC) to the Windows of all your rooms(Xbox One, PC, 360,) and your pocket(Windows 8 phones). It's a pretty obvious goal.

    What's Sony's plan? Wait and see if MS succeeds, then do the same and catch up 3-5 years later? That's typically been their strategy for the past decade.

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    AlexGlass

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    #61  Edited By AlexGlass

    @darji said:

    @darson said:

    So singleplayer has the possibility of acquiring network lag.

    No. All it does its downloading driving behaviors from a server. These guys up there are just dreaming and believe the 600% bullshit.^^

    Since you claim it's bullshit, I assume you know exactly how much compute processing it requires to run the sim, process and alter the code to be downloaded, as well as the time frame, so please enlighten us.

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    Syed117

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    @alexglass: don't bother, you are only wasting your time. It's not worth it.

    It's only complete bullshit because it isn't on the ps4.

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    AlexGlass

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    @syed117 said:

    @alexglass: don't bother, you are only wasting your time. It's not worth it.

    It's only complete bullshit because it isn't on the ps4.

    You've never pulled worms out of the ground and watched them squirm before using them for bait on a hook when fishing?

    It's one of my favorite pastimes. :)

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    enemaems

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    #64  Edited By enemaems

    @alexglass: So back-pedaling on almost everything they announced within three weeks of announcing it is structure and focus? The Xbox brand actually being in separate divisions now is also a good thing? MS' focus for the last three years with Xbox has moved away from games. Just look at the evolution of the dash. Games used to be front and center on the blades. Now they have moved down a bit in the pecking order. I have no problem with them wanting to do business the way they want to do, but their way is not for me. You want an Xbone, more power to you, I won't ever tell anyone how to spend their hard earned money. But to sit here and say Sony is going to sit back and copy MS, when MS just did a 180 degree turn to match what Sony is doing, is hilarious. It's almost like you have been oblivious to everything since MS' E3 conference.

    The games industry has been all about ripping off the competitor since the Genesis/SNES days. I've been through every console launch since the NES (got the Deluxe launch package on day one when I was in 6th grade). This one has been the strangest so far. Even the Saturn launch wasn't as weird as the Xbone changes.

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    AlexGlass

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    #65  Edited By AlexGlass

    @enemaems said:

    @alexglass: So back-pedaling on almost everything they announced within three weeks of announcing it is structure and focus? The Xbox brand actually being in separate divisions now is also a good thing? MS' focus for the last three years with Xbox has moved away from games. Just look at the evolution of the dash. Games used to be front and center on the blades. Now they have moved down a bit in the pecking order. I have no problem with them wanting to do business the way they want to do, but their way is not for me. You want an Xbone, more power to you, I won't ever tell anyone how to spend their hard earned money. But to sit here and say Sony is going to sit back and copy MS, when MS just did a 180 degree turn to match what Sony is doing, is hilarious. It's almost like you have been oblivious to everything since MS' E3 conference.

    The games industry has been all about ripping off the competitor since the Genesis/SNES days. I've been through every console launch since the NES (got the Deluxe launch package on day one when I was in 6th grade). This one has been the strangest so far. Even the Saturn launch wasn't as weird as the Xbone changes.

    On everything? They dropped the DRM requirement due to massive backlash. What else did the backpedal on?

    I also don't care how MS structures their company(they're huge) and it means nothing to me but why is re-structuring a massive company into separate divisions a bad thing? About a year ago, shareholders actually wanted to break them up, so this is MS's answer to sticking together while still pleasing those guys. What's that got to do with anything though? Politics, business, has little effect on my entertainment experience in my living room. Why even bring up financial stability here because it doesn't serve your point at all? You want to talk about layoffs, auctioning buildings to scrape a few billion, constant losses, and that kind of stuff? If you're looking on the business end for comfort in your purchase, you won't find it in Sony's financial spreadsheets.

    And just cause they dropped it, it should be pretty obvious, they don't plan on dropping their plans. They're just going to allow people who don't know any better without internet to buy their console and figure out it's nowhere near as good if they don't plan on getting online. They tried to make it a requirement, to make it clear. But MS didn't do a 180 to match what Sony is doing. Sony isn't doing anything new. Not doing anything new, isn't considered doing something. MS was already doing this with the 360...so what are you talking about?

    Sony's proposition is the same as what the 360/PS4 was last generation, more like the 360 actually, because even from a hardware design perspective, they finally dropped proprietary hardware to do what MS has been doing since the original Xbox. In fact Sony just added a paywall similar to Xbox Live Arcade, some 10 years later when they could finally build it up enough to justify charging for it. Sony dropped the Move bundle, to try and undercut MS, which could be their biggest issue if it turns out Kinect gets heavily integrated into next-gen games, and has 2-3 megahits early on that sell millions of titles and appeal to all gamers. It would get solidified as a permanent gaming device like the analog stick, or online gaming, or a hard drive. So who doesn't have focus? Does Sony not believe enough in their tech to charge for it and make it standard? We all know what happens to accessories so the message from Sony is pretty loud and clear, that they gave up on this battle(a 2nd time) before it even started. And that's where they messed up with me. They don't have a good enough answer for Kinect and so they're willing to sell their console cheaper.

    And personally I don't give a crap what I have on my dash. Those are miniscule, inconsequential reasons or annoyances(one way or the other) when it comes to consoles that I don't really take into consideration when making my purchase. For one or the other.

    But if you ask me, consoles should have been doing more than just games for the past decade in the first place. Why do I need a stripped down PC, which is what they both are, that are capable of so much more limited to JUST gaming? Having a system capable of doing more than just games never held the PC or PC gaming back and some of the biggest games today on consoles are games that were originally PC games by PC developers. Consoles grew up and it's about time they did.

    It doesn't bother me one bit to have a device that does more because it's clearly matching everything a gaming console does as well and then some. The ability of Windows to do everything else, is not holding back PC gaming or diluting the experience. And in the case of Xbox One, it also does all this with some pretty cool voice recognition, that makes it look futuristic and I think the public will eat it up. The tech head in me is salivating.

    But as far as gaming, if anything the Xbox One, because of Kinect, because of cloud gaming, as far as a gaming machine, is a more inclusive machine than the PS4, who pretty much cuts out 100+ million casual gamers as well as any core gamers that actually like and want experimental tech. And the launch line-up immediately represents this broader focus. The variety across the Xbox One's line-up will appeal to a lot more people than the PS4's and i think that's going to continue to be the case going forward.

    And finally, I won't tell you how to spend your money either but I will say this. Microsoft positioned the Xbox one to be the de facto next-generation console and entertainment device while Sony's positioned the PS4 to be a next-gen traditional console that appeals mainly to core gamers. The bad part for them is MS is also catering to those guys just as much

    That's why I'm buying an Xbox One and I feel very confident in that purchase and I'm really excited about it. For me, it just has a lot more attainable potential and anyone who actually wants to look at this honestly, should be able to see it. A slight GPU advantage is no way in hell going to ever overcome all the tech advantage in the Xbox One to the average consumer or to a gamer. Not even close. It doesn't have the potential of cloud gaming and kinect integration into core games and they also have nothing exciting to offer as an alternative to that, other than price. That's the big gap. I know exactly or have a very good idea of what I'm going to get from that GPU advantage of the PS4 on modest hardware. At most, minimal graphical tweaks in multiplatform titles that won't have a drastic impact on gaming. I have no idea what Kinect + cloud + next gen gaming will give me. And that's what it makes it exciting. The biggest tool in Sony's pocket is price. Other than that, I honestly believe they're in a big hole in terms of technology to start this generation. Sony's in great position to fight a battle in the fall of 2013. They have no 10 year plan this time around though. It's weak as hell if all they are banking on is a slight GPU advantage which could quickly be forgotten if the moment comes and MS starts demonstrating real time cloud processing at next E3 and heavy kinect integration into core games. Right now Cerny's downplaying cloud processing just as hard as Sony was downplaying online gaming when MS was trying to introduce Xbox Live. Because, unlike a GPU advantage, if those things pan out for MS, then those things will have a big impact on gaming, just like Xbox Live did. And just like Xbox Live, it will be the default console to get if you want next-gen gaming. And yes, at that point, I do believe Sony will get more aggressive and have no choice but to copy what they're doing if they want to remain competitive. Like they have been doing for a decade.

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    Syed117

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    #66  Edited By Syed117

    @enemaems: what exactly do you expect any company to do when faced with the biggest backlash in the history of games? Especially when the other is acting like they are doing something great when they are not doing anything at all. What exactly has Sony said that is so new about the next generation? They basically came out and said nothing. We are keeping things exactly the same but we will act like we are the saviors of gaming. It's equally pathetic that people have fallen for it so easily. They've basically come out and said we will give you nothing more than a more powerful Playstation and people are eating it up. What exactly is next gen about the ps4? Gddr5 and more tflops? A controller that is trying to catch up to the 360 contreoller? That's all that makes gaming a worthy hobby? That's the only argument I hear.

    People love to say that Microsoft is matching Sony. No, they are matching what they have been doing the entire time as well. The original xbox and the xbox 360 had the same policies and the only thing Sony did was force an entire generation to remain where the last one was. The only thing Microsoft is activity matching is their policy towards indies. Whatever that is worth. The only way Sony could succeed was to appeal to the simple nature of the Internet mob. Keep things exactly how they are because they don't have the ambition or resources to do something new. Yup, docile animals are more easy to satisfy.

    I have no doubt that Sony will have great first party games for ps4. They always do. People go on and on about games but choose to ignore that Microsoft has shown more exclusives. Many more. It doesn't matter if Sony says they have a million exclusives games in development if they aren't ready to show them. Sony has always done that. I'm sure most of those games will get here eventually.

    The same thing will happen with this generation that happened with the original xbox and the ps2. Sony will have have great games and lack in the areas where they have always lacked. Microsoft has proven that they are the ones willing to take risks and despite all the backlash they are positoned to make the next generation different in the same ways that they have made previous ones different.

    Lastly, if you think that Sony is all about games and doesn't care about anything else, you are delusional. If that was the case, they would not have spent the first 40 minutes of their E3 press conference talking about nothing but movies and music. I think we are beyond having these companies show nothing it a netflix logo on stage at E3. Of course it's easy to ignore these things when you've already made up your mind.

    I have no problems with people spending their money however they choose. That is their right. I just have issues with hypocrisy.

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    Darji

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    @darji said:

    @darson said:

    So singleplayer has the possibility of acquiring network lag.

    No. All it does its downloading driving behaviors from a server. These guys up there are just dreaming and believe the 600% bullshit.^^

    Since you claim it's bullshit, I assume you know exactly how much compute processing it requires to run the sim, process and alter the code to be downloaded, as well as the time frame, so please enlighten us.

    No I claim that its possible on very console And that the cloud thing are just servers who store data. You will never see any game using realtime calculations in any form through the "cloud" because if you would do that what would be the result when playing offline or having a bad conections? Less physics effects? Less graphics? lags in SP? No. All it does is storing data the console will download and then use. The 600% is bullshit since it is not even real AI but rather other peoples driving patterns.

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    AlexGlass

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    #68  Edited By AlexGlass

    @darji said:

    @alexglass said:

    @darji said:

    @darson said:

    So singleplayer has the possibility of acquiring network lag.

    No. All it does its downloading driving behaviors from a server. These guys up there are just dreaming and believe the 600% bullshit.^^

    Since you claim it's bullshit, I assume you know exactly how much compute processing it requires to run the sim, process and alter the code to be downloaded, as well as the time frame, so please enlighten us.

    No I claim that its possible on very console And that the cloud thing are just servers who store data. You will never see any game using realtime calculations in any form through the "cloud" because if you would do that what would be the result when playing offline or having a bad conections? Less physics effects? Less graphics? lags in SP? No. All it does is storing data the console will download and then use. The 600% is bullshit since it is not even real AI but rather other peoples driving patterns.

    Yes, actually. And that's if it's an offline game in the first place. They can easily make it a requirement, like Titanfall and yes Titanfall is already confirmed to be using real time processing for A.I.

    And it only sounds like a negative because you and a whole bunch of others are hell bent on making positive things sound like negative.

    You see, the way I see it, and the way it actually works, is a game that typically maxes out the power of the console, gets more power from connecting to the server. Not the other way around. There is no negative in this. A game with online multiplayer, doesn't take away processing power from the offline single player campaign.

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    leebmx

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    Read this article I think Patrick might have linked to it - it is very good and worth reading all of to get an idea of what the cloud is capable of.

    The very brutal short answer is that it can help with storage and data, but can't improve things that require quick, immediate processing or anything in real-time as this will be hampered by internet speeds.

    MS have mostly been spouting a load of PR guff, but it could have some potential in AI, the article points out, but only in the background, for example helping with the unseen running of proceeses in large worlds like Skyrim.

    Read the article - its very interesting and thourough.

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    Darji

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    #70  Edited By Darji

    @alexglass: No just no...

    Titanfall guys already confrimed that it is basically dedicated server. Did you still not watch the Giantbomb E3 show I told you about? Go watch it seriously.....

    Also for what does titanfall use AI in the online mode? It makes not even sense....

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    enemaems

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    #71  Edited By enemaems

    @alexglass: You have a lot of what-ifs in that post. I'll agree MS does seem to have a nicer launch line-up, but some of their biggest exclusives are money hats to 3rd parties. Other than Turn 10 and Remedy (they release on PC as well), what MS 1st party studio is doing great work? Halo 4 was a downturn other than prettier graphics. Rare is a joke and only exists to make shitty Kinect games. The game I want the most, Titanfall, I will be able to play on PC, and the sequel will be on PS4 anyways.

    If MS had a true head of the Xbox division, they wouldn't have had to back pedal on DRM, Indie games, always online, used games, etc. Every person that spoke had a different message about the Xbone and it did them zero favors. If they still had someone like a Peter Moore, people would have bought into it because he knows how to communicate a message. If they weren't so focused on their TV stuff, which is nothing but a goddamn overlay to a menu I already have on my service, maybe people wouldn't be so sour. The reason they switched to be more like Sony is when they saw the pre-order numbers, they were getting smashed. If you think it is anything other than that, I have some nice rocks to sell you that will make loving pet. If their message was clear and Mattrick wasn't so condescending when he spoke, we would be getting a console with their actual vision from day one. MS seems to have forgotten who buys consoles in the 1st few months. People like us are the ones who usually make or break a new piece of tech. If we aren't buying them what makes you think the casuals will buy it? The Surface was a big hit for them, right? How about that Windows phone? Windows 8 is taking the world by storm isn't it? 2 out of those 3 things I named are actually worth looking at because they are actually decent devices, but no way would I recommend one of them over an iPad/iPhone/Samsung Galaxy device. I want MS to succeed, I want Sony to succeed, I want the Wii U to start selling (may need a genie in a bottle for that one. :>) ), Competition makes the other companies thrive. Having a proper message is still needed. Bad press goes a long way nowadays and I hope MS recovers from it.

    Now, saying Sony is doing no innovation is a crazy though. To name a few new things; they are doing live game streaming from a console, the Share button on the controller is new, their purchase of Gaikai will hopefully make their entire back catalog playable on PS4/Vita/etc. MS is not scared to rip off their competitors either. They made Kinect a more enhanced version of the PS Eye, they are offering a free game a month, ala PS+, they made avatars because of the love for Mii's, etc. MS is not this innovative company. They, like almost all others, are trying to be exactly like Apple. Again, all companies ape each other. If you think about it, Nintendo is really the only company out there doing their own thing and not giving a fuck what the others are doing. This may be good some times, but other times its a huge mistake.

    In the end, I'm sure we'll just have to agree to disagree. You enjoy your Xbone. I'll enjoy my PC and PS4. Hopefully MS gets smart and releases a version without Kinect and I'll be there to buy it day one if the price is right and there are a ton of exclusives to play on it.

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    AlexGlass

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    #72  Edited By AlexGlass

    @darji said:

    @alexglass: No just no...

    Titanfall guys already confrimed that it is basically dedicated server. Did you still not watch the Giantbomb E3 show I told you about? Go watch it seriously.....

    Also for what does titanfall use AI in the online mode? It makes not even sense....

    According to the Game Informer exclusive coverage they plan on using it for both A.I. and physics. They didn't elaborate on it, but dedicated servers usually means online multiplayer hosting. Not physics processing, not lighting, not rendering, not cloth or fluid dynamics, none of that. All of those things have been specifically mentioned by MS and according to GI Titanfall is using it for both A.I. and physics.

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    enemaems

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    Isn't Titanfall going to have some form of AI controlled NPCs, even in Multiplayer? I swear I heard that/read that.

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    Darji

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    #74  Edited By Darji

    @alexglass: yeah i believe it when I see it. It will not work.

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    John1912

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    #75  Edited By John1912

    @darji said:

    @alexglass: again giantbombcast E3 this year. I think it was day 2 or 3. just watch it and see how these gys call it basically dedicated server and a storage for data.

    Most games will only use it for dedicated storage, that doesnt meant it cant be used to offload CPU workload doesnt impact frame data. A driving game would prob be a perfect choice for that option.

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    enemaems

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    @syed117: You can call me a lot of things, but a Hypocrite isn't one of them. :>)

    I own four Xbox 360's and two PS3's. Most of my gaming this past gen was on the 360. If you read my original post, I mention that I didn't care for the way MS' has focused their Xbox business the past few years. Games are not #1 for them anymore, and that's fine. It's just not for me. I'm not delusional that the PS4 is also an all in one box. However, I also appreciate the fact that I am not forced to own a piece of camera tech I have zero interest in or the fact that their reveal didn't talk about live television for the 1st 30 minutes. Seriously, who the fuck watches live TV that much unless its sports related?

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    konig_kei

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    Seems interesting but Just seems like the evolution of ghosts, also seems like something that require lots of races from the player to get enough data to create something would seem even remotely similar. But if by doing this you could create an ai that is almost identical to a person, that's pretty cool.

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    leebmx

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    #78  Edited By leebmx

    @alexglass said:

    Yes, actually. And that's if it's an offline game in the first place. They can easily make it a requirement, like Titanfall and yes Titanfall is already confirmed to be using real time processing for A.I.

    As far as I understand its not possible to use the power of the cloud to improve games in real time because they are limited by the speed of the internet. If they could use it for real time AI calculations and graphics rendering etc then there would be no reason to put anything other than the most basic power in the box and have everything done by the MS network. The "cloud", urgh, can't be used for anything that needs to happen in 'real time.'

    The article I linked to in my other post lists these tasks as part of a game engine cycle

    • Game physics (update models)
    • Triangle setup and optimisation
    • Tessellation
    • Texturing
    • Shading
    • Various render passes
    • Lighting calculations
    • Post effects
    • Immediate AI
    • Ambient (world) AI
    • Immediate physics (shots, collisions)
    • Ambient physics

    It concludes that the cloud can only really be used for ambient background tasks and some forms of lighting as possibilties for remote processing. Isn't what you are talking about for Titanfall just dedicated servers - or is there more to it?

    EDIT: it also says: Another known possibility for cloud computing is AI, not for direct interactions such as determining if an NPC should duck or shoot, but for background AI in living worlds like Grand Theft Auto and Elder Scrolls. The complexity of these games has always been limited to the console's resources, and AI has often been very limited to simple behaviour routines. Cloud computing could run world simulation and just update the player's local world over time, allowing the world to live and respond to player actions. Such complex game worlds could be a significant advance, but they are also constrained to a limited set of game types. Games like Xbox 360's flagships Gears of War and Forza Motorsport have little need for smart NPC AI of this kind.

    I am very interested in what remote computing power can do for our games, but as far as I can tell they are not going to be some way of boosting the all-round power of our machines and can only be used for certain specific tasks which run in the background.

    Even so I still think it could be useful and am up for anything which adds to the potential for better gaming experiences but I think the way MS have marketed and promoted this functionality is unhelpful to the general understanding of the 'cloud' and their exaggerated claims and wild use of potential huge percentage point increases in 'power' ends up undermining their credibilty, something they are a little short of currently. They would do better to treat us all as grown-ups and really explain what they can do.

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    AlexGlass

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    @enemaems said:

    @alexglass: You have a lot of what-ifs in that post. I'll agree MS does seem to have a nicer launch line-up, but some of their biggest exclusives are money hats to 3rd parties. Other than Turn 10 and Remedy (they release on PC as well), what MS 1st party studio is doing great work? Halo 4 was a downturn other than prettier graphics. Rare is a joke and only exists to make shitty Kinect games. The game I want the most, Titanfall, I will be able to play on PC, and the sequel will be on PS4 anyways.

    If MS had a true head of the Xbox division, they wouldn't have had to back pedal on DRM, Indie games, always online, used games, etc. Every person that spoke had a different message about the Xbone and it did them zero favors. If they still had someone like a Peter Moore, people would have bought into it because he knows how to communicate a message. If they weren't so focused on their TV stuff, which is nothing but a goddamn overlay to a menu I already have on my service, maybe people wouldn't be so sour. The reason they switched to be more like Sony is when they saw the pre-order numbers, they were getting smashed. If you think it is anything other than that, I have some nice rocks to sell you that will make loving pet. If their message was clear and Mattrick wasn't so condescending when he spoke, we would be getting a console with their actual vision from day one. MS seems to have forgotten who buys consoles in the 1st few months. People like us are the ones who usually make or break a new piece of tech. If we aren't buying them what makes you think the casuals will buy it? The Surface was a big hit for them, right? How about that Windows phone? Windows 8 is taking the world by storm isn't it? 2 out of those 3 things I named are actually worth looking at because they are actually decent devices, but no way would I recommend one of them over an iPad/iPhone/Samsung Galaxy device. I want MS to succeed, I want Sony to succeed, I want the Wii U to start selling (may need a genie in a bottle for that one. :>) ), Competition makes the other companies thrive. Having a proper message is still needed. Bad press goes a long way nowadays and I hope MS recovers from it.

    Now, saying Sony is doing no innovation is a crazy though. To name a few new things; they are doing live game streaming from a console, the Share button on the controller is new, their purchase of Gaikai will hopefully make their entire back catalog playable on PS4/Vita/etc. MS is not scared to rip off their competitors either. They made Kinect a more enhanced version of the PS Eye, they are offering a free game a month, ala PS+, they made avatars because of the love for Mii's, etc. MS is not this innovative company. They, like almost all others, are trying to be exactly like Apple. Again, all companies ape each other. If you think about it, Nintendo is really the only company out there doing their own thing and not giving a fuck what the others are doing. This may be good some times, but other times its a huge mistake.

    In the end, I'm sure we'll just have to agree to disagree. You enjoy your Xbone. I'll enjoy my PC and PS4. Hopefully MS gets smart and releases a version without Kinect and I'll be there to buy it day one if the price is right and there are a ton of exclusives to play on it.

    Mattrick is no longer with Microsoft. Not that I agree, because I happen to like the original vision, but whatever, that's what the masses want so be it.

    You're right, it's people like us though that initially buys consoles, but not the hardheaded types and it doesn't just mean people with forum accounts. People who want NEW stuff, new tech, like me, and Sony has done jack shit to convince me that this GPU advantage is going to do anything for my core games. They have shown me Killzone 4 and Infamous 3, pretty much canned Move, and told me Gaikai will be used to for streaming PS3 games. Will it allow for MASSIVE differences that create NEW gaming experiences? Will it completely change the way A.I. behaves? Will it create new genres? Or will it give me a better texture here and there?

    I'm supposed to be excited? I'm freaking bored man! I'm bored of those games. I've been bored of this console generation for years. Bored out of my mind. And the only ones trying to take some risks and do something exciting is MS. Sony's going low risk, low reward. "Put a bit more powerful GPU and we got the graphic whores in our pocket." Well they're wrong. Because I have traditionally been one of those guys, and this time it's just not enough. Truth is this core tech sucks whether or not they have a an advantage! The Xbox One's core tech sucks, and the PS4's core tech sucks. And any PC gamer will tell you the same. It's not like the PS4 will be capable of real time ray-tracing engines and the X1 won't, or running some crazy ass new physics model that actually offers a significant difference and the X1 won't. No. Nothing like that. It takes 2 Titan GPUs to do a real time ray tracing engine at 25fps and still has noise. If it was something like that, sure, I'd be excited. But no...it's not going to be anything along those lines. And at least MS is saying..."it sucks but well we'll make up for it because we'll hook it up to a server and we'll be able to target other areas other than textures which have traditionally been overlooked. A.I., physics, etc."

    So what else does Sony have? MS is promising all this other stuff. Sony..."sorry....here's $100 off!" In a nutshell. That's the proposition.

    Well to those of us that stopped seeing value in the same old games, I'm not going to buy it at $500, $400, $300, or even $200. It's just not appealing at all at any price point.

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    planetfunksquad

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    Hey, so this is all cool and that, but if I have to be online to use this 600% better AI, why wouldn't I just play against real people?

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    Darji

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    @alexglass: The thing that Sony has is not bullshiting anyone and backtrack with everything they have done. It seems like the overthrown the whole concept of this console just to please the crowd. It will be a mess.

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    leebmx

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    #82  Edited By leebmx

    @alexglass Also sorry for being a bit of a stalker, but I was looking through your post history and you seem to comment almost exclusively positive stuff about MS and the XboxOne. Do you work for MS? Or just really love what they are doing?

    If this is part of some viral marketing thing I think that's pretty sad and if not then I think you need to vary what you write about a bit. It is entirely up to you what you post about but it kind of seems as if you have some agenda above and beyond the normal fan boy type stuff. I apologise if I am mistaken about this but its hard not to start drawing conclusions.

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    OurSin_360

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    I can't wait for the cloud to become self aware and destroy the human race, only to recreate and enslave it in digital form with all the data it collected through kinect.

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    AlexGlass

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    #84  Edited By AlexGlass

    @leebmx said:

    @alexglass Also sorry for being a bit of a stalker, but I was looking through your post history and you seem to comment almost exclusively positive stuff about MS and the XboxOne. Do you work for MS? Or just really love what they are doing?

    If this is part of some viral marketing thing I think that's pretty sad and if not then I think you need to vary what you write about a bit. It is entirely up to you what you post about but it kind of seems as if you have some agenda above and beyond the normal fan boy type stuff. I apologise if I am mistaken about this but its hard not to start drawing conclusions.

    I just love what they are doing, and I generally stay away from things that don't interest me, and don't care much for participating in trashing the other competitor just because I love what MS is doing. However when that kind of stuff inundades Xbox One threads, I won't have an issue picking it apart.

    What I think is sad, is that people think I'm a viral marketer for being on the Xbox forum, in an Xbox thread, being excited about the Xbox. Why the hell are you guys here? Isn't the point of discussing games, discussing things that you find exciting? Or does everyone just generally bitch and complain on the internet today?

    Maybe you guys should actually start worrying about what is exciting to you, games, tech, whatever...and stop worrying about the noise.

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    Thedrbrian

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    #85  Edited By Thedrbrian
    @brich said:

    @charlie_victor_bravo: I worked as a researcher in radiology at the NIH and we took advantage of a supercomputer cluster almost identical to Azure. Running thousands and thousands on CT scans through "training" would take days on my single fast computer, but offloading this processing to the cloud could accomplish the same task in under an hour. This sounds similar to the A.I. training going on with Forza 5, and it makes me incredibly optimistic about the future on Xbox one and Azure if a launch game is already going this far.

    How long would it have taken if there were thousands of people running thousands of their own CT scan training sims?

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    Darji

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    @alexglass: oh i would never think that. I am just thinking you are a bit naive for believing all this. There is not one evidence that it can even work in regards of real-time calculations.

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    grilledcheez

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    Yeah, I see that everybody is focusing in on the number he used, but I think the approach to A.I. they are taking is going to make the game a hell of a lot more interesting. Also, the potential is there to make some really unique games in the future.

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    eskimo

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    600% MORE AI!

    FUCK YEAG

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    AlexGlass

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    @darji said:

    @alexglass: oh i would never think that. I am just thinking you are a bit naive for believing all this. There is not one evidence that it can even work in regards of real-time calculations.

    I'm not naive. I consider myself to be a pretty informed, intelligent individual who has done his homework and have a strong base for my beliefs. I have been researching this type of info any time a new console generation has come out since 1994.

    There is plenty of evidence this is viable tech and has been used for years. All I can do is point this out, but it's up to you to get informed. Cloud streaming services have been in existence for a long time and all this is, is a combination of the two.

    http://graphics.cs.williams.edu/papers/CloudLight13/CloudLightTechReport13.mp4

    What Nvidia just recently demonstrated with their server based real time indirect lighting, is exactly what MS wants to do with the Xbox One, and it is perfectly doable on Azure as well. But people have done more than that on Azure. It can be used to run applications, as a compute server, as a render farm as a streaming cloud service. It's flexible. It's capable of running programs such as Audesk in real time, which performs everything from running the application, to 3D modeling, to rendering, to physics, all in real time.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N32bUb1CNQc

    In this case it's running the application, computing geometry, rendering, running a lighting engine. It's being used as a cloud streaming service, all in real time. It can certainly run a portion of that code. That should be a breeze. The only trick is local synchronization.

    If you understand a little bit about how it works, and do a bit more research than your typical gaming forum affair, it's not hard to figure it out. If you still want to believe it doesn't work after seeing things like that, then the issue isn't the proof, it's simply likely the fact you just don't know what you are looking at. It's not about "can it work" since that was answered decades ago, but rather what are the limitations and what type of applications can it work for and can it work smoothly for everyone connected. There's only three limiting factors. Latency, bandwidth and cost. Latency decides what type of code you run and bandwidth decides how much of it. The last portion is whether it makes financial sense for develoeprs, which is really what's been the biggest hurdle for bringing this tech out to the public, and now MS has a cheap offer to developers. That's all. Since they already built this gigantic network for their computer business, it costs them little to nothing to also allow it to be used for their gaming business.

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    TheSouthernDandy

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    @alexglass: just a heads up trying to discuss anything with darji is a wasted effort it doesn't matter if you have evidence to back up your side. He has his head wedged so far up Sonys back passage he's coming out Jack Trettons mouth like a secondary set of alien jaws.

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    EXTomar

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    #91  Edited By EXTomar

    The AI for Titanfall is no more or less special than stuff you see in MMOs. Basically, it is great they are using this tech for what it is useful for but acting like it is a miracle wonder technology that will change how games are made is laughable because...they already have. I'm not detracting from their choice but the rolling my eyes of fans acting like "this changes everything".

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    AlexGlass

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    @alexglass: just a heads up trying to discuss anything with darji is a wasted effort it doesn't matter if you have evidence to back up your side. He has his head wedged so far up Sonys back passage he's coming out Jack Trettons mouth like a secondary set of alien jaws.

    Well all I have to say is that a lot of people who have ignorantly dug their heels into the "PR nonsense" idea will have an uncomfortable time in gaming forums over the course of this generation. This kind of stuff is just going to keep coming.

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    Darji

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    @alexglass: IT does not work because we don not have the necessary internetspeed world wide to do this. You can not exclude pther people and only make it usable in the US for example. What you showed is basically what onlive and gaikai does but you will stil have to do with latency. In your video I have seen 150ms latency for example.

    That is why it is impossible to use on a gloabal device like a console. You already need 1.5 MB/s to let it work correctly according to MS back then. So if you exclusde all the people who do not have that kind of speed because of money or location issues You have a very very big problem.

    For example the major provider in Germany Telekom wants to give every customer a GB limit and if you have reached the limit they want to reduce your download speed to 360KB/s. which this alone Germany would be out of the question for Microsoft and many other countries have these GB limits as well. The speed and the service possibilities are not there yet to support your "dream" Is it possible yes sure but not on such a "casual" level to reach millions of people.

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    AlexGlass

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    #94  Edited By AlexGlass

    @darji said:

    @alexglass: IT does not work because we don not have the necessary internetspeed world wide to do this. You can not exclude pther people and only make it usable in the US for example. What you showed is basically what onlive and gaikai does but you will stil have to do with latency. In your video I have seen 150ms latency for example.

    That is why it is impossible to use on a gloabal device like a console. You already need 1.5 MB/s to let it work correctly according to MS back then. So if you exclusde all the people who do not have that kind of speed because of money or location issues You have a very very big problem.

    For example the major provider in Germany Telekom wants to give every customer a GB limit and if you have reached the limit they want to reduce your download speed to 360KB/s. which this alone Germany would be out of the question for Microsoft and many other countries have these GB limits as well. The speed and the service possibilities are not there yet to support your "dream" Is it possible yes sure but not on such a "casual" level to reach millions of people.

    The ISP/consumer war is a completely different war.

    But have you actually looked at the stats of how much bandwidth the code would require? How much compressed code is able to run? How much bandwidth does an A.I. string take up? How much bandwidth does a compressed string of A.I. code require? More or less than your typical video stream? More or less than Netflix?

    Any ideas?

    Yeah, I don't think anyone has this info but there's a whole lot of "experts" that think they have it all figured out and that it doesn't work.

    Just out of curiosity, but you don't think MS took a look at the same obvious problems you look at, and noticed the same issue? You actually believe they designed something that WON'T work for their 40+ million Xbox Live user base? Really?

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    Darji

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    @alexglass: Microsoft said at least 1.5 MB/s And I do not know what MS does but I know they backtracked on almost everything they wanted to do. So I doubt they even have a clue about that. Not on a Nintendo level but rather clueless outside of the US.

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    AlexGlass

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    #96  Edited By AlexGlass

    @darji said:

    @alexglass: Microsoft said at least 1.5 MB/s And I do not know what MS does but I know they backtracked on almost everything they wanted to do. So I doubt they even have a clue about that. Not on a Nintendo level but rather clueless outside of the US.

    Yeah I'm sure they wake up every day putting in place practices and procedures that give you wet dreams. I'll bet anything in the world the company and people building world wide data centers and networks, and spending billions on intelligent human beings and manufacturing are collectively much smarter than you are when it comes to the world's network infrastructure and capabilities.

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    TheSouthernDandy

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    #97  Edited By TheSouthernDandy

    @thesoutherndandy said:

    @alexglass: just a heads up trying to discuss anything with darji is a wasted effort it doesn't matter if you have evidence to back up your side. He has his head wedged so far up Sonys back passage he's coming out Jack Trettons mouth like a secondary set of alien jaws.

    Well all I have to say is that a lot of people who have ignorantly dug their heels into the "PR nonsense" idea will have an uncomfortable time in gaming forums over the course of this generation. This kind of stuff is just going to keep coming.

    Unfortunately a lot of the pushback is MS's doing after they so monumentally ballsed up the PR side of the console. I didn't have a problem with the always on DRM stuff they were doing some of it sounded interesting but the did such a terrible job managing the message that now no matter what good news they put out there will be people who will dump on it. Add that contingent to the people who are rightfully skeptical about the 'cloud' and they're gonna have a tough road until launch I think. I prefer to keep an open mind about this stuff and hope they can do some cool things with the new system. It seems that a lot of the devs are saying the extra power will be used to do some cool stuff.

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    Darji

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    @alexglass: yeah like they thing the TV thing is still a big deal. I give you a hint not in Europe or Japan for example.

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    kindgineer

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    #99  Edited By kindgineer

    I really hope Microsoft delivers with the whole cloud processing thing, and it doesn't end up being a hoax like what EA was portraying SimCity's to be. The idea of helping out with AI processing really does intrigue me. It really helps define a better future for the system as well knowing that its possible to boost the capabilities of these systems down the road farther than their physical means. Kind of like how USB Flash Memory helped your RAM out.

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    Nekroskop

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    #100  Edited By Nekroskop

    THE POWER OF THE CLOUD!

    Remember Onlive?

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