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    The Xbox One is Microsoft's third video game console. It was released on November 22nd 2013 in 13 countries.

    Turn 10: Cloud allows for 600% bump in Forza A.I.

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    AlexGlass

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    THE POWER OF THE CLOUD!

    Remember Onlive?

    Don't need to remember it, I use it about once a week to try out free demos that my laptop can't run because it has an IntelHD gen 1 card. I love it. Look forward to them upgrading to GRID and hope they get GTA5. Will save me hundreds from having to upgrade my PC or buy another current gen console.

    Doesn't really have a bearing on how X1's hybrid cloud processing will pan out though. OnLive's easy pie compared to what MS is attempting. Just shows people don't really know much when it comes to this.

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    John1912

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    @dark said:

    OMIGOSH, ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT XBONE HAS BLAST PROCESSING?

    MICROSOFT DO WHAT SOWONT!!!!

    No its prob more like Cell processing and all of those amazing advancements Sony came though with.

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    Hunkulese

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    @darji said:

    @alexglass: No just no...

    Titanfall guys already confrimed that it is basically dedicated server. Did you still not watch the Giantbomb E3 show I told you about? Go watch it seriously.....

    Also for what does titanfall use AI in the online mode? It makes not even sense....

    This guys is still trolling the boards making stuff up and trying to say the PS4 can do everything the Xbox One can? You keep bringing up the Titanfall developers but they did an actual great job of trying to show people how awesome the cloud will be even though they've barely scratched the surface of what's possible. They're running all the AI for their bots through the cloud and they specifically said it's impossible to do what they're doing with anything else including the PC.

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    Sergio

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    #104  Edited By Sergio

    Yeah... A lot of MS Kool-Aid is being drunk by some folks. The Xbox One will be a good system, with good games, but people are a bit off their rocker thinking it's the only system geared toward the future.

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    JasonR86

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    #105  Edited By JasonR86

    So what they are saying is that this system that doesn't require an always-on connection will offer a sub-par experience for systems that aren't always online for, at least, Forza? Great. Nicely done. Also only first-party's will take advantage of this because, without the always-on requirement, they can't be guaranteed that their consumers will be able to take advantage of the magic of cloud whatever whatever.

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    AlexGlass

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    #106  Edited By AlexGlass

    @jasonr86 said:

    So what they are saying is that this system that doesn't require an always-on connection will offer a sub-par experience for systems that aren't always online for, at least, Forza? Great. Nicely done. Also only first-party's will take advantage of this because, without the always-on requirement, they can't be guaranteed that their consumers will be able to take advantage of the magic of cloud whatever whatever.

    What a stupid and negative way of seeing things. Seriously, that is so stupid and hypocritical!

    No, what it means is that it will offer a better experience for those that can. People who can take advantage of online broadband shouldn't get anything better, because others might not be able to and will mean they have a subpar experience?

    Should they have never supported HDTVs? Online gaming? Impove PC ports?

    Some of you are truly reaching in finding ways to spin things into a negative. Sounds like a whole bunch of people suffering from the sour grapes syndrome.

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    JasonR86

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    #107  Edited By JasonR86

    @jasonr86 said:

    So what they are saying is that this system that doesn't require an always-on connection will offer a sub-par experience for systems that aren't always online for, at least, Forza? Great. Nicely done. Also only first-party's will take advantage of this because, without the always-on requirement, they can't be guaranteed that their consumers will be able to take advantage of the magic of cloud whatever whatever.

    What a stupid and negative way of seeing things. Seriously, that is so stupid and hypocritical!

    No, what it means is that it will offer a better experience for those that can. People who can take advantage of online broadband shouldn't get anything better, because others might not be able to and will mean they have a subpar experience?

    Should they have never supported HDTVs? Online gaming? Impove PC ports?

    Some of you are truly reaching in finding ways to spin things into a negative. Sounds like a whole bunch of people suffering from the sour grapes syndrome.

    Chill.

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    VooDooPC

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    Didn't Forza 1 already do this shit? I'm pretty sure I remember training my AI driver and it was supposed to drive like me. Now eight years later they upload it to a cloud and say its 600% better?

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    Sergio

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    Some of you are truly reaching in finding ways to spin things into a negative. Sounds like a whole bunch of people suffering from the sour grapes syndrome.

    Says the person who is reaching to spin things about the PS4 into a negative.

    It's not about being negative, it's about being realistic about what the cloud is capable of given the current infrastructure, and how it's already been used. Heck, even one of your examples of the cloud is basically what Gaikai does with the cloud. You're too defensive about it as if you actually have a stake in this.

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    Darji

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    @jasonr86 said:

    So what they are saying is that this system that doesn't require an always-on connection will offer a sub-par experience for systems that aren't always online for, at least, Forza? Great. Nicely done. Also only first-party's will take advantage of this because, without the always-on requirement, they can't be guaranteed that their consumers will be able to take advantage of the magic of cloud whatever whatever.

    What a stupid and negative way of seeing things. Seriously, that is so stupid and hypocritical!

    No, what it means is that it will offer a better experience for those that can. People who can take advantage of online broadband shouldn't get anything better, because others might not be able to and will mean they have a subpar experience?

    Should they have never supported HDTVs? Online gaming? Impove PC ports?

    Some of you are truly reaching in finding ways to spin things into a negative. Sounds like a whole bunch of people suffering from the sour grapes syndrome.

    But you can not do it if most people can not even take advantage of it or better getting a negative experience. Again we do still lack the infrastructure and this is to bashing that is the truth. Same goes for the PS4 by the way.

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    leebmx

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    #111  Edited By leebmx

    @alexglass: Viral marketing wouldn't normally cross my mind. It just caught my interest that your account was set up only in June of this year, after the E3 debacle, you have no avatar and the comments you make seem to be about Microsoft and how great the One is.

    Its not just that, the style of your writing piqued my curiosity as well, your kind of boundless puppy-dog enthusiasm for all things MS just didn't look to me the way a real person would talk. You really sound like someone who works for the company rather than the average fan boy. But I will believe you if you say otherwise.

    Going back to the subject you haven't replied to any of the points I have made. Have you read the Eurogamer article? The power of any cloud computing is hugely limited by broadband speeds and download capacities. Server power cannot be used to improve anything real time in a consoles performance. This is the problem that MS are always trying to ignore in consumer discussions and why all this talk of %improvements are just silly PR guff.

    It does have some uses in that it can help run background AI and collect player information which can help with things like the Drivatar, but it cannot compensate in anyway for lack of power in the box. If the One has a poor graphics chip or lack of available RAM, the cloud cannot help in anyway with this because it cannot move the information fast enough.

    Please read that Eurogamer article and get back to me. I know I keep banging on about it, but they are really very fair and thourough in their analysis and it makes all the points I have much better than I possibly can.

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    ch3burashka

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    AlexGlass

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    #113  Edited By AlexGlass

    @sergio said:
    @alexglass said:

    Some of you are truly reaching in finding ways to spin things into a negative. Sounds like a whole bunch of people suffering from the sour grapes syndrome.

    Says the person who is reaching to spin things about the PS4 into a negative.

    It's not about being negative, it's about being realistic about what the cloud is capable of given the current infrastructure, and how it's already been used. Heck, even one of your examples of the cloud is basically what Gaikai does with the cloud. You're too defensive about it as if you actually have a stake in this.

    There's nothing realistic about saying games that take advantage of the cloud would offer a subpar experience offline. Because for one thing, it's an extension to offer things beyond the console's capabilties. It's just hypocritical and dumb considering you can say this about every single game that has online multiplayer. But nobody thinks like this about that or PC games or anything else. It's obvious just people trying really hard to find something wrong with it.

    And what did I reach on to spin into a negative about the PS4?

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    Sergio

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    #114  Edited By Sergio

    @sergio said:
    @alexglass said:

    Some of you are truly reaching in finding ways to spin things into a negative. Sounds like a whole bunch of people suffering from the sour grapes syndrome.

    Says the person who is reaching to spin things about the PS4 into a negative.

    It's not about being negative, it's about being realistic about what the cloud is capable of given the current infrastructure, and how it's already been used. Heck, even one of your examples of the cloud is basically what Gaikai does with the cloud. You're too defensive about it as if you actually have a stake in this.

    There's nothing realistic about saying games that take advantage of the cloud would offer a subpar experience offline. Because for one thing, it's an extension to offer things beyond the console's capabilties. It's just hypocritical and dumb considering you can say this about every single game that has online multiplayer. But nobody thinks like this about that or PC games or anything else. It's obvious just people trying really hard to find something wrong with it.

    And what did I reach on to spin into a negative about the PS4?

    It's realistic to know what the cloud is capable of, in particular with the current infrastructure, and what it basically already is being used for that negates the "innovative" portion that others talk about. You also either don't know what the word "hypocritical" means or just like throwing it around needlessly, when people aren't being hypocritical.

    Look at many of your previous posts that you mention PS4 and you'll find them.

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    AlexGlass

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    @sergio said:

    @alexglass said:

    @sergio said:
    @alexglass said:

    Some of you are truly reaching in finding ways to spin things into a negative. Sounds like a whole bunch of people suffering from the sour grapes syndrome.

    Says the person who is reaching to spin things about the PS4 into a negative.

    It's not about being negative, it's about being realistic about what the cloud is capable of given the current infrastructure, and how it's already been used. Heck, even one of your examples of the cloud is basically what Gaikai does with the cloud. You're too defensive about it as if you actually have a stake in this.

    There's nothing realistic about saying games that take advantage of the cloud would offer a subpar experience offline. Because for one thing, it's an extension to offer things beyond the console's capabilties. It's just hypocritical and dumb considering you can say this about every single game that has online multiplayer. But nobody thinks like this about that or PC games or anything else. It's obvious just people trying really hard to find something wrong with it.

    And what did I reach on to spin into a negative about the PS4?

    It's realistic to know what the cloud is capable of, in particular with the current infrastructure, and what it basically already is being used for that negates the "innovative" portion that others talk about. You also either don't know what the word "hypocritical" means or just like throwing it around needlessly, when people aren't being hypocritical.

    Look at many of your previous posts that you mention PS4 and you'll find them.

    I think you're kind of missing the point of what I'm referring to as being hypocritical.

    And I know what I said about the PS4, which is really something that shouldn't even be discussed in an A.I. thread about Forza, but I want to know where I "reached to spin into a negative' which is what you claimed.

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    leftie68

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    Man this thread turned into a classic fanboy flaming war. Some gamers really take ownership of their console loyalties. It is a bit freaky. I love what both companies are doing. The structure of both consoles leave the doors wide open for some innovative and amazing games. I really don't see ANYTHING remotely advantageous to be so strong as to highly recommend one system over the other (well not anymore after Microsoft's change in policies). Microsoft has the new Kinect...great. That is a great peripheral device and fun for what it is. It is NOT a game changing control mechinism and won't be, but I think it is well worth the $100 IF you want one. And the Playstation 4 has DDR5 RAM and is said to be 30%-40% more powerful than the Xbox One. Great...so was the PS3 when compared to the Xbox 360...did that really matter....nope. Really ladies and gentlemen, it will come down to the games, and it is a promising sign that developers are excited to work with both machines. It is niave and foolish to think that the console makers will lead the "Innovation" revolution (what I am calling it) of the next 5 to 10 years. The developers will, and you better believe that both companies will be primed to take advantage of those innovative ideas. So pick the system whose exclusives you like most and say your decision was based on taste. Or hell, if you can afford it, get both. But please stop acting like someone slapped your mom everytime one of these posts pops up in the Forums.

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    JasonR86

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    #117  Edited By JasonR86

    @alexglass:

    The problem is Turn 10 stated that by utilizing the cloud service they can free up more of the console for more activities, namely increasing graphical fidelity. So from a design standpoint they make the assumption that they'll design their game to better take advantage of resources that, for offline players, won't be available. This isn't like an online multiplayer decision. This is a fundamental game design decision.

    That's why I would say that those who are offline are getting a sub-par experience. Turn 10 is designing their core game to take advantage of resources online-only consoles will have available to them.

    3rd parties won't do this because they can't assume consumers will have online consoles.

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    AlexGlass

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    @jasonr86 said:

    @alexglass:

    The problem is Turn 10 stated that by utilizing the cloud service they can free up more of the console for more activities, namely increasing graphical fidelity. So from a design standpoint they make the assumption that they'll design their game to better take advantage of resources that, for offline players, won't be available. This isn't like an online multiplayer decision. This is a fundamental game design decision.

    That's why I would say that those who are offline are getting a sub-par experience. Turn 10 is designing their core game to take advantage of resources online-only consoles will have available to them.

    3rd parties won't do thus because they can't assume consumers will have online consoles.

    No they're saying it is capable of doing that but Forza isn't doing any type of real time processing on the cloud as far as I know. So in this case, none of that is going on. TitanFall yes. Forza no. But Titanfall is an online-only game, so that makes the point moot. In that case they claim they were able to free up 2 cores to do other processing, but it's an online multiplayer game to begin with.

    If the Drivatar system can't be done offline at all, then it doesn't matter. You wouldn't have gotten it anyway. In fact, in this case, people with poor connections can still take advantage of it, since it's not done in real time.

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    JasonR86

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    @alexglass:

    In your OP the Turn 10 guy stated that freeing up AI responsibilities to the cloud would allow for 10-20% of the console's capabilities to be used for things like improving the graphics. Without the cloud there what do you think happens to that 10-20% boost?

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    colourful_hippie

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    @jasonr86 said:

    @alexglass:

    In your OP the Turn 10 guy stated that freeing up AI responsibilities to the cloud would allow for 10-20% of the console's capabilities to be used for things like improving the graphics. Without the cloud there what do you think happens to that 10-20% boost?

    It goes to your mom, hypocrite.

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    JasonR86

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    #121  Edited By JasonR86
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    AlexGlass

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    #122  Edited By AlexGlass

    @jasonr86 said:

    @alexglass:

    In your OP the Turn 10 guy stated that freeing up AI responsibilities to the cloud would allow for 10-20% of the console's capabilities to be used for things like improving the graphics. Without the cloud there what do you think happens to that 10-20% boost?

    Yes but he's talking about the possibility of doing that, like in Titanfall, not that Forza is doing that. That's only for real time processing.

    And again, it's a boost. Most developers are not going to design offline games around a boost. They will design it for the hardware offline, and use the cloud to extend features. If they design it in such a way that you must be connected at all times, then it's most likely going to be an online-only game.

    To say you are getting a subpar experience is the equivalent of saying, "well if someone has a Titan graphics card, my game is going to be a subpar experience." If the game is designed to run on a GTX680, then you're going to get the full capabilities of your card, and the guy with a Titan is going to get some additional graphical improvements.

    I have never heard that argument being turned upside-down on its head until it came to the Xbox One cloud, even though this kind of stuff has been going on for 20 years.

    Not to mention, if this is a worry, then I have some really bad news. You might as well skip next generation entirely. A lot your games will be" subpar experiences" next generation, cloud or no cloud, because 2-3 years from now, when most PC developers start developing their games for the latest PC engine they will all be "subpar experiences" on consoles. Next-gen consoles can't even run Unreal 4 without a downgrade judging by the PS4 demo a year ago, so this is going to be a common occurrence. Beginning with Battlefield 4 this fall. It will also be a "subpar experience" on consoles.

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    mbr2

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    but does it have 500% more rainbows?

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    colourful_hippie

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    JasonR86

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    @alexglass:

    I've lost the thread dude. It sounds like you're not even talking about the OP anymore and making conjectures.

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    AlexGlass

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    #126  Edited By AlexGlass

    @jasonr86 said:

    @alexglass:

    I've lost the thread dude. It sounds like you're not even talking about the OP anymore and making conjectures.

    I just think you misread the OP. The developers were making a conjecture to begin with, with their 20% number.

    That's only applicable to server-side, real time processing, and as far as I know, Forza is not doing that.

    They're saying before they were limited to only using 10-20% of the CPU. The Drivatar system requires far more than that. And that now they could use that 10-20% for something else. Except, that part is not going on in Forza. They're still using only 10-20% of the CPU in offline modes. But they have access to bulk processing that extend far beyond that, up to 600%, which takes place on the server, in order to make Drivatars a possible feature.

    Nothing has been "swapped" out in Forza. To do what you are suggesting, then Forza would require an always-on connection, and run the A.I. or physics or some part of it completely on the server, which would free up that extra 10-20% of hardware processing offline to be used for something else. They're not doing that though. They're just saying you could do that. Like in Titanfall. And perhaps will do it in future games.

    So this whole idea that you're getting something less than you would otherwise just isn't applicable. Cloud = Drivatar. It's an addition. You're still getting traditional A.I. when you first get the game, just like you always did. So it doesn't affect your traditional Forza game at all. But if you access the cloud, you get dynamic A.I.

    As I said before, there's nothing for people to complain about here, even by those that are against server side processing, unless you really want to find something to complain about.

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    JasonR86

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    @alexglass:

    So they don't use this in Firza 5. What about Forza 6? Making this statement shows how he views development working on Xbox One now and in the future.

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    Darji

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    @alexglass: you really do not get that they are using other players driving patterns and nothing else. That way the opponents are behave more realistically then normal AI opponents. It is nothing else....

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    AlexGlass

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    #129  Edited By AlexGlass

    @jasonr86 said:

    @alexglass:

    So they don't use this in Firza 5. What about Forza 6? Making this statement shows how he views development working on Xbox One now and in the future.

    Maybe, and personally I hope so. I guess we'll have to find out.

    Look it's getting a little bit annoying if you ask me, even off topic, to always have these same old conversations about all the people that might not have access, about some game that doesn't exist, that might be taking advantage of the cloud, that might turn out to be something less offline if it has an offline mode and if it uses server side real time processing and if it was designed for that server side processing.

    That to me is the very definition of reaching. It's a freaking console designed to be plugged into the internet, and an online service, clearly built for the Xbox Live user base. And I'm willing to bet 99% of the people on this website, won't have an issue with it. And if that situation ever arises, then people can bitch all they want to that developer that did that and chose to stifle a game that would have worked just fine offline, and instead intentionally went to sabotage the offline mode by developing it for the cloud.

    But all that is besides the point. What about the millions and millions that will have absolutely no issue with connecting and taking advantage of the cloud? That's who this is for and that's who it's targeted at. I want to talk about what it can do for those of us that won't have any issue with it because that's who this is for.

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    Darji

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    @alexglass: remember the guy who was fired by Microsoft fo saying stuff like that?

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    Sergio

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    I think you're kind of missing the point of what I'm referring to as being hypocritical.

    And I know what I said about the PS4, which is really something that shouldn't even be discussed in an A.I. thread about Forza, but I want to know where I "reached to spin into a negative' which is what you claimed.

    No. I pretty much know that you like throwing that word around when people aren't being hypocrites. People are not going around saying that the cloud only really works on PS4 because Xbox One sucks. People are saying what the cloud is capable of right now and calling out Microsoft and second-party developers for what they're saying. That's not hypocrisy.

    Outside of people correctly stating that the PS4 is capable of using the cloud, because Microsoft doesn't have an exclusive hold on the concept, no one has really talked about PS4 but you.

    "What's Sony's plan? Wait and see if MS succeeds, then do the same and catch up 3-5 years later? That's typically been their strategy for the past decade."

    This shows me that while you claim 17 years of gaining knowledge, you know jack-shit about video game history.

    "Sony dropped the Move bundle, to try and undercut MS, which could be their biggest issue if it turns out Kinect gets heavily integrated into next-gen games, and has 2-3 megahits early on that sell millions of titles and appeal to all gamers. It would get solidified as a permanent gaming device like the analog stick, or online gaming, or a hard drive. So who doesn't have focus? Does Sony not believe enough in their tech to charge for it and make it standard? We all know what happens to accessories so the message from Sony is pretty loud and clear, that they gave up on this battle(a 2nd time) before it even started."

    About the only thing you got right is that Sony did it to undercut Microsoft, there was no try here. They got the PS4 in at $100 less than the Xbox One. They also heard from plenty of people not wanting a bundled-in Kinect, so didn't repeat what may be a mistake on Microsoft's side. Everything else you've said there is spinning it into a negative.

    I could really just keep pointing to that whole post about how you yourself are a hypocrite at negatively spinning about Sony, but I'd rather go home now and spend less time in the office.

    The bottom-line is both systems are good. The PS4 is slightly more powerful, and the cloud isn't magically going to change that for the Xbox One. Sorry. Choose whichever one has the exclusives you want, because "[t]he variety across the Xbox One's line-up will appeal to a lot more people than the PS4's" is purely subjective.

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    AlexGlass

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    @sergio said:

    @alexglass said:

    I think you're kind of missing the point of what I'm referring to as being hypocritical.

    And I know what I said about the PS4, which is really something that shouldn't even be discussed in an A.I. thread about Forza, but I want to know where I "reached to spin into a negative' which is what you claimed.

    No. I pretty much know that you like throwing that word around when people aren't being hypocrites. People are not going around saying that the cloud only really works on PS4 because Xbox One sucks. People are saying what the cloud is capable of right now and calling out Microsoft and second-party developers for what they're saying. That's not hypocrisy.

    Outside of people correctly stating that the PS4 is capable of using the cloud, because Microsoft doesn't have an exclusive hold on the concept, no one has really talked about PS4 but you.

    "What's Sony's plan? Wait and see if MS succeeds, then do the same and catch up 3-5 years later? That's typically been their strategy for the past decade."

    This shows me that while you claim 17 years of gaining knowledge, you know jack-shit about video game history.

    "Sony dropped the Move bundle, to try and undercut MS, which could be their biggest issue if it turns out Kinect gets heavily integrated into next-gen games, and has 2-3 megahits early on that sell millions of titles and appeal to all gamers. It would get solidified as a permanent gaming device like the analog stick, or online gaming, or a hard drive. So who doesn't have focus? Does Sony not believe enough in their tech to charge for it and make it standard? We all know what happens to accessories so the message from Sony is pretty loud and clear, that they gave up on this battle(a 2nd time) before it even started."

    About the only thing you got right is that Sony did it to undercut Microsoft, there was no try here. They got the PS4 in at $100 less than the Xbox One. They also heard from plenty of people not wanting a bundled-in Kinect, so didn't repeat what may be a mistake on Microsoft's side. Everything else you've said there is spinning it into a negative.

    I could really just keep pointing to that whole post about how you yourself are a hypocrite at negatively spinning about Sony, but I'd rather go home now and spend less time in the office.

    The bottom-line is both systems are good. The PS4 is slightly more powerful, and the cloud isn't magically going to change that for the Xbox One. Sorry. Choose whichever one has the exclusives you want, because "[t]he variety across the Xbox One's line-up will appeal to a lot more people than the PS4's" is purely subjective.

    No the hypocrisy I pointed out is in the idea that a game who takes full advantage of the offline hardware, is somehow a subpar experience because it also might use the cloud to extend features or improve the game. If that's what the console is capable of, then that is your experience. So to turn it around is just hypocritical, unless you believe this about every single game out there that is different from platform to platform.

    Coincidentally, I only see that line of thinking applied to the cloud talk. Apparently people conveniently ignore that this line of thinking can be applied to just about any game out there like PC versions, ports that are different, online multiplayer modes. It's only if a game uses the cloud that it becomes a subpar experience and a negative. Hmmm....

    And the PS4 is capable of hooking up to a streaming cloud service. That's no different than any other device, That's the only information we have. If it's capable of server side hybrid-processing, show proof. Else stop trying to equate the two, because they are not the same. It's apples and oranges.

    In one case you are taking advantage of both, the local hardware and the server, and basically combining the two for additional processing capabilities.

    In the PS4's case, and that of any streaming cloud service, you are replacing your local hardware for the server. In order for it to be any advantage over the local hardware, that cloud service needs to be able to produce games that are superior to the local hardware in just about every way. At which point, your PS4 is just a paperweight with a controller attached to it. The final image is completely independent of what hardware you use to access that server. Whether you use your PS4, tablet or PS3 to access that streaming service, it simply won't matter.

    This shows me that while you claim 17 years of gaining knowledge, you know jack-shit about video game history.

    Xbox Live, hard drive, off the shelf hardware, standardized voice chat....and coming soon, cloud gaming. It's not even up for debate.

    And imo, the big mistake is NOT bundling Move. That's not me spinning. I know it's hard to believe for some that there are negatives to the PS4, but there are. There is no spinning needed to say that it is not capable of playing certain games out of the box. It's just a reality and a fact just as it is a fact that it's $100 cheaper which is a positive. The PS4, out of the box, is not capable of playing games like Dance Central or Fantasia or Kinect Sports Rivals and that's a pretty big freaking negative for gamers who happen to enjoy those type of games. It's going to require an accessory, and suffer the fate of an accessory. That's its negative. No spinning needed, because it is what it is.

    And no, the cloud isn't going to "magically" change the Xbox One for the better, it's going to do it using a powerful world wide network of Xeon-equipped servers. And some people's heads will explode when it turns out that's exactly what's going to happen.

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    shinjin977

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    @alexglass:

    I think we all should stop using dump marketing speak like "cloud gaming" or "backlog" or "innovations" or "hardcore gamers". I personally think it makes us all look stupid.

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    EXTomar

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    #134  Edited By EXTomar

    I am not speaking about how Microsoft would do this or that with the cloud but talking as someone who has built scaling systems on cloud technology. What these guys and posters here are talking about is nothing new. At the risk of showing the "PC Gaming Banner" has been going on for decades and is actually the preferred way to design online features.

    This stuff they are talking about is meaningless drivel because (here is the huge hint for alexglass) its been here for decades and has already changed how games are designed a decade ago. An explicit hint to alexglass because he just doesn't get it: Claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza AI because of "the cloud" is as idiotic as saying the monsters in Diablo 3 are smarter than Diablo 2.

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    flippyandnod

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    Hype-riffic statement. Take a self-serving statement like this with a grain of salt.

    It will be interesting to see if Drivatar is worth something this time. Last time (Forza 2?) it was useless. It was supposed to learn how you drive, but instead nothing you did seemed to affect the lines the Drivatar took, instead just made it take corners slower or faster in the same lines.

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    AlexGlass

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    #136  Edited By AlexGlass

    @extomar said:

    I am not speaking about how Microsoft would do this or that with the cloud but talking as someone who has built scaling systems on cloud technology. What these guys and posters here are talking about is nothing new. At the risk of showing the "PC Gaming Banner" has been going on for decades and is actually the preferred way to design online features.

    This stuff they are talking about is meaningless drivel because (here is the huge hint for alexglass) its been here for decades and has already changed how games are designed a decade ago. An explicit hint to alexglass because he just doesn't get it: Claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza AI because of "the cloud" is as idiotic as saying the monsters in Diablo 3 are smarter than Diablo 2.

    For one they are not claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza A.I. Try reading. They're claiming the cloud gives them the equivalent processing power of 600% of the A.I. possible on an X1 CPU.

    In other words if you could run nothing but A.I. on an X1 CPU, the servers gives them 6x that capability. And if you wanted to use their numbers for what they calim A.I usually takes up, 10%-20% of the CPU, anywhere from 1/10th to 1/5th of your CPU, so the numbers would actually be 30x-60x the A.I. resources you would normally get to allocated on an X1 CPU for A.I. .

    And for another, what's been here for decades already? Where? What?

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    JasonR86

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    @extomar said:

    I am not speaking about how Microsoft would do this or that with the cloud but talking as someone who has built scaling systems on cloud technology. What these guys and posters here are talking about is nothing new. At the risk of showing the "PC Gaming Banner" has been going on for decades and is actually the preferred way to design online features.

    This stuff they are talking about is meaningless drivel because (here is the huge hint for alexglass) its been here for decades and has already changed how games are designed a decade ago. An explicit hint to alexglass because he just doesn't get it: Claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza AI because of "the cloud" is as idiotic as saying the monsters in Diablo 3 are smarter than Diablo 2.

    For one they are not claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza A.I. Try reading. They're claiming the cloud gives them the equivalent processing power of 600% of the A.I. possible on an X1 CPU.

    In other words if you could run nothing but A.I. on an X1 CPU, the servers gives them 6x that capability.

    And for another, what's been here for decades already? Where? What?

    You really need to stop being such a dick dude.

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    @jasonr86 said:

    @alexglass said:

    @extomar said:

    I am not speaking about how Microsoft would do this or that with the cloud but talking as someone who has built scaling systems on cloud technology. What these guys and posters here are talking about is nothing new. At the risk of showing the "PC Gaming Banner" has been going on for decades and is actually the preferred way to design online features.

    This stuff they are talking about is meaningless drivel because (here is the huge hint for alexglass) its been here for decades and has already changed how games are designed a decade ago. An explicit hint to alexglass because he just doesn't get it: Claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza AI because of "the cloud" is as idiotic as saying the monsters in Diablo 3 are smarter than Diablo 2.

    For one they are not claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza A.I. Try reading. They're claiming the cloud gives them the equivalent processing power of 600% of the A.I. possible on an X1 CPU.

    In other words if you could run nothing but A.I. on an X1 CPU, the servers gives them 6x that capability.

    And for another, what's been here for decades already? Where? What?

    You really need to stop being such a dick dude.

    That's considered being a dick? Then what do you tell people who are attempting to repeatedly dismissive the subject as unimportant while showing they didn't even actually take the time to read and understand the information in the topic?

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    JasonR86

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    @jasonr86 said:

    @alexglass said:

    @extomar said:

    I am not speaking about how Microsoft would do this or that with the cloud but talking as someone who has built scaling systems on cloud technology. What these guys and posters here are talking about is nothing new. At the risk of showing the "PC Gaming Banner" has been going on for decades and is actually the preferred way to design online features.

    This stuff they are talking about is meaningless drivel because (here is the huge hint for alexglass) its been here for decades and has already changed how games are designed a decade ago. An explicit hint to alexglass because he just doesn't get it: Claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza AI because of "the cloud" is as idiotic as saying the monsters in Diablo 3 are smarter than Diablo 2.

    For one they are not claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza A.I. Try reading. They're claiming the cloud gives them the equivalent processing power of 600% of the A.I. possible on an X1 CPU.

    In other words if you could run nothing but A.I. on an X1 CPU, the servers gives them 6x that capability.

    And for another, what's been here for decades already? Where? What?

    You really need to stop being such a dick dude.

    That's considered being a dick? Then what do you tell people who are attempting to repeatedly dismissive the subject as unimportant while showing they didn't even actually take the time to read and understand the information in the topic?

    As a creator of a thread you can't dictate the responses it gets. All you can do is put the information out there for discussion. Don't take things so personally and don't talk down to people when they don't think the exact same way you do. If you can't do this then you shouldn't be in forums.

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    Hailinel

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    @jasonr86 said:

    @alexglass said:

    @extomar said:

    I am not speaking about how Microsoft would do this or that with the cloud but talking as someone who has built scaling systems on cloud technology. What these guys and posters here are talking about is nothing new. At the risk of showing the "PC Gaming Banner" has been going on for decades and is actually the preferred way to design online features.

    This stuff they are talking about is meaningless drivel because (here is the huge hint for alexglass) its been here for decades and has already changed how games are designed a decade ago. An explicit hint to alexglass because he just doesn't get it: Claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza AI because of "the cloud" is as idiotic as saying the monsters in Diablo 3 are smarter than Diablo 2.

    For one they are not claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza A.I. Try reading. They're claiming the cloud gives them the equivalent processing power of 600% of the A.I. possible on an X1 CPU.

    In other words if you could run nothing but A.I. on an X1 CPU, the servers gives them 6x that capability.

    And for another, what's been here for decades already? Where? What?

    You really need to stop being such a dick dude.

    That's considered being a dick? Then what do you tell people who are attempting to repeatedly dismissive the subject as unimportant while showing they didn't even actually take the time to read and understand the information in the topic?

    You don't tell them anything. You move on. And not everyone cares about this so-called 600% increase. Such a measurement is meaningless because there's no way for us to compare the reality of the increase versus previously existing A.I. Honestly, 600% might not be as revolutionary as you'd think.

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    AlexGlass

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    @hailinel said:

    @alexglass said:

    @jasonr86 said:

    @alexglass said:

    @extomar said:

    I am not speaking about how Microsoft would do this or that with the cloud but talking as someone who has built scaling systems on cloud technology. What these guys and posters here are talking about is nothing new. At the risk of showing the "PC Gaming Banner" has been going on for decades and is actually the preferred way to design online features.

    This stuff they are talking about is meaningless drivel because (here is the huge hint for alexglass) its been here for decades and has already changed how games are designed a decade ago. An explicit hint to alexglass because he just doesn't get it: Claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza AI because of "the cloud" is as idiotic as saying the monsters in Diablo 3 are smarter than Diablo 2.

    For one they are not claiming there is a 600% bump in Forza A.I. Try reading. They're claiming the cloud gives them the equivalent processing power of 600% of the A.I. possible on an X1 CPU.

    In other words if you could run nothing but A.I. on an X1 CPU, the servers gives them 6x that capability.

    And for another, what's been here for decades already? Where? What?

    You really need to stop being such a dick dude.

    That's considered being a dick? Then what do you tell people who are attempting to repeatedly dismissive the subject as unimportant while showing they didn't even actually take the time to read and understand the information in the topic?

    You don't tell them anything. You move on. And not everyone cares about this so-called 600% increase. Such a measurement is meaningless because there's no way for us to compare the reality of the increase versus previously existing A.I. Honestly, 600% might not be as revolutionary as you'd think.

    When they're arguing the point?

    No it's not revolutionary, but coincidentally, 600% in this case would be something like .6Tflops....

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    TheHBK

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    #142  Edited By TheHBK

    This is so stupid? Why would they count on the cloud? They should just set it up where a player races against other cars that are instead driven by real people instead. Because real people would drive more realistically than an AI on some server rack. Also it might be cheaper to have these people racing against you than to have to buy a bunch of computers to do the AI. They need to give up on this cloud thing for AI and just use real people. They already use people in india to answer the phones, have them race others too.

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    Nekroskop

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    600% increase in NSA activity!

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    Sergio

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    No the hypocrisy I pointed out is in the idea that a game who takes full advantage of the offline hardware, is somehow a subpar experience because it also might use the cloud to extend features or improve the game. If that's what the console is capable of, then that is your experience. So to turn it around is just hypocritical, unless you believe this about every single game out there that is different from platform to platform.

    Coincidentally, I only see that line of thinking applied to the cloud talk. Apparently people conveniently ignore that this line of thinking can be applied to just about any game out there like PC versions, ports that are different, online multiplayer modes. It's only if a game uses the cloud that it becomes a subpar experience and a negative. Hmmm....

    And the PS4 is capable of hooking up to a streaming cloud service. That's no different than any other device, That's the only information we have. If it's capable of server side hybrid-processing, show proof. Else stop trying to equate the two, because they are not the same. It's apples and oranges.

    In one case you are taking advantage of both, the local hardware and the server, and basically combining the two for additional processing capabilities.

    In the PS4's case, and that of any streaming cloud service, you are replacing your local hardware for the server. In order for it to be any advantage over the local hardware, that cloud service needs to be able to produce games that are superior to the local hardware in just about every way. At which point, your PS4 is just a paperweight with a controller attached to it. The final image is completely independent of what hardware you use to access that server. Whether you use your PS4, tablet or PS3 to access that streaming service, it simply won't matter.

    This shows me that while you claim 17 years of gaining knowledge, you know jack-shit about video game history.

    Xbox Live, hard drive, off the shelf hardware, standardized voice chat....and coming soon, cloud gaming. It's not even up for debate.

    And imo, the big mistake is NOT bundling Move. That's not me spinning. I know it's hard to believe for some that there are negatives to the PS4, but there are. There is no spinning needed to say that it is not capable of playing certain games out of the box. It's just a reality and a fact just as it is a fact that it's $100 cheaper which is a positive. The PS4, out of the box, is not capable of playing games like Dance Central or Fantasia or Kinect Sports Rivals and that's a pretty big freaking negative for gamers who happen to enjoy those type of games. It's going to require an accessory, and suffer the fate of an accessory. That's its negative. No spinning needed, because it is what it is.

    And no, the cloud isn't going to "magically" change the Xbox One for the better, it's going to do it using a powerful world wide network of Xeon-equipped servers. And some people's heads will explode when it turns out that's exactly what's going to happen.

    The hypocrisy you're pointing out is nothing I've said, so you do in fact just like throwing that word around.

    Any device can leverage the cloud, it's not simply about any device can stream from the cloud. There isn't any hardware - or lack of - within either console that prohibits them from doing so. Surprise! That's the benefit of the cloud.

    You point to things that had already existed in PC gaming and that had precursors on consoles already. You either have a selective memory, or just don't know as much as you think you do. It is debatable, but it's not really worth the effort since you've drunk so much Kool-Aid already.

    No, it is negative spinning when people are telling you they don't want a Kinect bundled with their Xbox One and didn't want a Move bundled with PS4. They got what they wanted from the PS4 side. It's negative spinning thinking that Sony is just going to copy Microsoft. Heck, Microsoft and Sony both copied the idea of motion controls; Microsoft copied Miis and monetized them; they both have iterated on Nintendo's controllers, with Sony at least changing the button names.

    I don't think you're a corporate shill like some have said, I just think you're delusional thinking the cloud will make the Xbox One more powerful than PS4. I do think the cloud is a good thing. I use it every day at work.

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    enemaems

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    #145  Edited By enemaems

    Here is a general idea. MS built the Xbone to be an online console. We get that. Now, millions of people buy the console who don't have access to the online abilities. We get it, the console isn't for them, but they buy it anyway. Do you think developers are going to look at them millions of potential customers and say "fuck 'em?" No they will not. They will develop games with the lowest common denominator in mind, and that is games that do not rely on the cloud. It sucks, I know, but no way developers are going to leave that kind of money on the table. Broadband internet with no data caps are not as common as people think. IMO, MS has some damn good ideas, but I think they may be about one generation ahead of when they are viable to the majority.

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    isomeri

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    @enemaems said:

    Here is a general idea. MS built the Xbone to be an online console. We get that. Now, millions of people buy the console who don't have access to the online abilities. We get it, the console isn't for them, but they buy it anyway. Do you think developers are going to look at them millions of potential customers and say "fuck 'em?" No they will not. They will develop games with the lowest common denominator in mind, and that is games that do not rely on the cloud. It sucks, I know, but no way developers are going to leave that kind of money on the table. Broadband internet with no data caps are not as common as people think. IMO, MS has some damn good ideas, but I think they may be about one generation ahead of when they are viable to the majority.

    The Xbox One requires a day-one update to be installed via the internet, so there can't be "millions of people" out there buying the console with no access to the internet. And I do think that many games will require always-online to work, the same way that many 360 games ended up requiring a hard-drive even though some of the first consoles were sold without one.

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    Littleg

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    Hey everyone, long time lurker, first time poster.

    I think we're all getting a bit hung up on this 600% number. He's not saying the AI will be 6 times better (no, wait 7? 6? No, definitely 7. Maths!), he's saying it has 7 times the processing power dedicated to it, through having that processing happening off-site rather than on the console. Will it result in more human, believable AI? Probably, but not I imagine '7 times better' (however you'd measure that) because beyond a certain point I assume you start getting into diminishing returns. For all the information that's supposedly being stored, we're still talking about a car that has to make its way around a fixed circuit here.

    @extomar said:

    So fun thought experiment: Exactly what needs to be improved about driver behavior over Forza 4? Although having this feature isn't bad it isn't that important either since you could do what you did a decade ago.

    Interesting story: Yesterday I got into thinking that there were no Endurance races in FM4, so last night I set up a multiplayer lobby with a full compliment of bots, set the AI to 'Hard' and did a 25 minute MX-5 race around the Bernese Alps. With damage on full I smashed my car up good and proper on the second lap, so pitted and had to spend the rest of the race catching up to the pack. When I finally did about 15 minutes later they were all (bar two who were straggling along with damaged engines) driving line-astern, doggedly sticking to the same racing line and making no mistakes or allowances for the presence of each other or me.

    A little more variation and jostling for position would have made the whole process feel less like a 25-minute time trial in which you also had to pass some mobile chicanes and more like a race against decent opponents...

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    hollitz

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    In my eyes, the cloud computing thing could be cool for XBONE exclusives, but I'm not sure that it's really going to be taken advantage of by third party developers. Seems like extra work. Admittedly, that's an uninformed opinion.

    Hopefully it does end up being something cool. Saying that as a person who has no interest in the XBONE at all. Would be great for people who do get the console, and might even prod Sony into setting up some kind of cloud computing thing too.

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    EXTomar

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    #149  Edited By EXTomar

    There is nothing or particularly XBox One centric about Azure. You could write apps to run on Azure around 2009~ although I'm a little fuzzy on when it was first available (I just don't remember). There is nothing stopping someone from making a cross platform game using Microsoft Azure as their server side tech any more than it would stop someone from AWS or rolling their own.

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    Sergio

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    And for another, what's been here for decades already? Where? What?

    @extomar is correct that the cloud has been around for decades. I don't think it's been in gaming for decades, but has been around for over a decade. (At least I don't consider P2P as the same thing as the cloud, but that did offer lessons to be learned.) The cloud is just jargon that has been co-opted by marketing.

    This edit will also create new pages on Giant Bomb for:

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