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Justin258

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Justin258

16688

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@ben_h said:

Yeah there does need to be a general inventory UI for everyone, not just party members. It's quite silly that if you want to give someone who isn't a current party member an item you have to go to camp, walk over to a party member, remove that party member, walk over to the person you want to give items, add them to the party, add stuff to their inventory, remove them from the party, walk over to wherever the previous party member you had was, then add them to the party. It's quite clunky.

This all seems to be because of the multiplayer. This game can be played with up to four people so inventories have to remain as separate as possible.

One possible solution for you and @efesell and anyone else who might be having inventory issues - there's a mod out there that lets you bring more than four party members along. Perhaps install that mod, add all the extra people whose inventories you want to mess with, and then remove the extra people so your party is back down to four and you don't upset the game balance. Is that still clunky? Absolutely, but it's potentially less clunky than what we currently have.

I still think Larian need to seriously rethink how they approach inventory for their next game. This was a problem in DOS1, it was a problem in DOS2, and it's somehow worse here.

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Justin258

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@ben_h said:

I find it super funny that when I was reading up on the technical requirements for this game, a lot of articles were like "to a certain extent, CPU doesn't matter and the game is much more GPU-limited". The people who wrote those articles obviously hadn't played Act 3 yet when they wrote them. It seems like Act 3 desperately needs some optimization work done. My PC's well about the recommended requirements and I still see tons and tons of hitches and the CPU runs at 100% when walking around the city. I'm not sure how a PC near the minimum requirements would be able to handle it all.

The Steam Deck can barely handle the city. In some areas it runs at like 20 FPS even on lowest settings.

Digital Foundry did a video on this - Acts 1 and 2 are largely fine for pretty much any reasonable gaming PC, but Act 3 is a bastard on the CPU. This seems to be because Act 3 takes place in a city with lots and lots of NPCs and other stuff going on whereas Act 1 and 2 don't, which means that Act 3 will always be worse than 1 and 2 performance-wise. Still, it really seems like Larian has some serious optimization to do.

I don't think there are any real spoilers here but this is footage of the final act of the game so take that into account when watching this.

Loading Video...

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Justin258

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I feel like anyone looking for a "Bioware fix" has been able to get it from other places for a while now. The Witcher 3 was the poster-child for that for a long time, but eventually we got The Outer Worlds, and now we've got (in some sense of irony) Baldur's Gate 3 apparently doing incredibly well. Even before that, Obsidian put out Pillars of Eternity and Tyranny and Larian did their two Divinity games, among a pile of other isometric RPGs over the past decade. These might not get the "Bioware fix" for anyone who needs their RPGs to have facial animations and camera angles, but if you were looking for stories and characters, Bioware hasn't been the cream of the crop for much longer than people seem to realize. They've been falling apart for over a decade and their last good game was Dragon Age Inquisition, if you're being really generous, and the last great one was Mass Effect 3.

I haven't said much of anything about this anywhere, but I've found myself wondering when EA is going to add Bioware to the pile of development studio corpses they keep in the basement, not if.

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Justin258

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Oh, hey, a bump I can comment on.

I recently installed Debian 12 and I have really enjoyed using that. Due to some computer parts swapping shenanigans, I am using Windows right now (I knew this would be a thing before I started taking apart computers) but I'm going to put Debian back on this PC pretty soon and... I don't know if I need to dual-boot anymore? Halo MCC matchmaking works on Linux now, at least it did for me when I was messing with Debian. Vermintide 2 doesn't really work unless you're host, which is a bummer, but it seems like Darktide works now. I don't play Siege anymore. I haven't been able to think of a good reason to stay on Windows.

I don't have anything against Windows, for the record, but being tied to this operating system that constantly begs me to use Edge, continually moves settings around for no good reason, and begs me to put everything on OneDrive just sucks. Debian was faster and much more interesting to use, even if I'll have to deal with some quirks when it comes to installing GOG games.

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Justin258

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@bladeofcreation: Pillars 1 wizards at level 1 could get like one or two spells that could be cast per encounter. The best thing about that game's system is that at a certain level, you could start selecting some spells to be per encounter and not per rest, so in the latter half of the game your priests and wizards really could do a lot more in combat.

Pillars of Eternity rectified this entirely by making all spells and abilities per encounter, no resting required. Instead, resting was for eating food and refreshing your Empower ability, which let you make an ability much more powerful.

I got through some of Kingmaker, a whole lot of Wrath of the Righteous, all of the original BG games, and a chunk of Icewind Dale dealing with basically everything being per rest, so it's not too big a deal - but I think these games would "flow" a lot better if they could figure out how to adjust these systems such that I didn't have to click "go to camp" or something every few encounters.

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Justin258

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I'm like 35 hours in and only now about to head to Moonrise Tower. This game has a lot.

I encountered a bug with Shadowheart. We had our first romantic interlude on the same night that I had the tieflings in my camp. It seems that the game didn't like that, so I had an identical interaction with her the next time I did a long rest.

Re: save scumming. Sometimes the dice roll frustratingly low multiple times in a row and I reload a save. A lot of times I just want to see what the different outcomes are for certain dialogue choices. I'm trying to "roleplay" when I take long rests, meaning that I try to justify it by tackling a few major quests or battles before I take a long rest. For the most part, this works. But sometimes, I do have to "save scum" by not triggering a certain fight while my party is exhausted. My biggest example is the Underdark beholder fight--although I tried to stay true to how I originally encountered it, if that makes sense. I originally encountered it near the end of a "day" of adventuring. I saw the petrified drow and I used basilisk oil to un-petrify one of them, which triggers a fight that is not actually all that difficult. The thing is that this triggers the beholder to surprise your party. When I did this with a fully rested party, it wasn't an issue. When I did this with an exhausted party, it made all the difference.

The inventory is still terrible, and it is extremely frustrating that I can't access everyone's inventory and character screens while at camp.

Scratch is still the best boy.

I was actually very curious about how they would handle resting in general. I like these games a whole hell of a lot, but these "rest to regain spells" magic systems don't really work so well in video game form for the reason you've spoiler'd - you can run into an encounter you didn't expect and if you don't have much left in the way of spells and such - well, you're going to have a real tough time.

In the old games, resting consisted of clicking the rest button, the screen going black, a small cutscene playing, and then you're back, fully rested. After the first few times you skip the cutscene. Sometimes you get interrupted while resting, which can be disastrous but that's why you quicksave beforehand. Is that better? No, but it was much quicker.

When I made my character, I went completely against Infinity Engine convention and put a lot of points into Charisma. This has paid off in spades, as I'm able to pass so many dialog checks. I'm also a Rogue with 18 Dex and so I seem to be able to hit things with either my ranged or melee weapons with a pretty high degree of accuracy. This might be feeding into why I'm not finding myself save scumming or reloading all that much. I avoid casting anything that only returns on a long rest as much as I can (which is another mark against resting mechanics, just make skills/spells per encounter and balance around that).

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Justin258

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@nodima said:

I haven’t played this game yet, as a console gamer, but I’ve been following this thread as a sort of barometer for how ready I might actually be to give a game like this a shot.

Maybe “not in the spirit of the game” isn’t the right phrase but when you live your whole life without hotkeys for saving and loading, I gotta say the entire concept of save scumming has always been a little…gamey to me, for lack of a better phrase for it. But I’m also in the Abby Russell school of “my save is my save”, aka One Save to Save It All, aka “why does the save screen have all these different slots on it? I’m already using one!”

Similarly, I’ve always found the idea of “the bad ending” being a disappointing outcome odd. If the way you played the game didn’t get you “the good one”, I’ll never understand why that makes players upset or feel like they didn’t get the full experience. Which again is probably owed to living a life in which saving has always been a relatively cumbersome activity compared to just rolling with the punches.

On PC at least, the controller support does allow you to Quicksave - you pause, mash a button dedicated to quicksaving, and it saves. I wouldn't tell you to abuse quicksaving and quickloading, as I'm not personally doing that either, but I am going to strongly - as strongly as I possibly can - advise you to keep multiple save slots.

This game is, in my experience, far less buggy than most massive AAA RPGs at launch, but frankly it's still one of those and still has some occasional bugs. I don't think this game is going to be prone to corrupted saves or anything drastic like that, but I could see someone running across something that makes them want to load an older save.

I'm personally sticking with the dice rolls I get. I've had some things not go my way that I thought would work out and some things I very much expected to not go my way turn out OK and having moments where I go "oops, uh, I'm in trouble" are a lot of fun for me. Not knowing for sure if I'm going to fail or succeed a check is interesting and cool and at least somewhat novel in comparison to the usual "if you have X amount of Y skill you pass Z check automatically".

...narratively at least, mechanically I think this game is mostly pretty easy. I've only wiped a few times. It's not as hard as Divinity: Original Sin 2 and it's definitely not as hard as the original games even when playing those on Beamdog's Normal difficulty.

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Justin258

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I feel like gaming has generally been in about the same spot since like 2016 or so, maybe 2015. Too many microtransactions, too many buggy games getting released, but also there are at least a few amazing games coming out every year. Despite all the complaints I might be able to make, I feel like video games in general are in a good place. Always be prepared for your most anticipated game to be a turd, be willing to look into things that are not on the top shelf, and don't buy games on day one in case they're a buggy mess.

This doesn't apply if your favorite genre is in a bad place. Amazingly, racing games do seem to be in one of those bad places, something I never thought I'd see because it seemed like a million of them were always coming out every year in the PS1/PS2/PS3 days and they suddenly dried up, like RTS games.

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Justin258

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@sethmode said:

I'm about 7 hours in and I both like a ton about it and have quibblings about a number of things. It's just very much a DOS game with D&D packaging, and that comes with good and bad, I think. Much more good than bad for my taste though.

Having said that, random question for the group: will we ever solve inventory shit in games? I feel like I'm much more about a streamlined ME2 style one before something like this, but I also feel that for a more tabletop styled adventure like this one, a big, flexible inventory is valuable. Regardless, I fucking hate using the inventory in this game with a controller. It's not even that bad, it's just not good enough to be fucking annoying enough to make me irritated whenever I have to significantly interact with it, which is not so great!

Pillars of Eternity gives you an invisible bottomless chest that you carry with you all the time. Every character has their own individual inventory, but that's for items that you think they're actually going to use. For instance, you might keep scrolls in your Wizard's inventory, a selection of weapon types for your Fighter, or a handful of traps for your Rogue. Everything else goes into this bottomless box. When you click on a group of dead enemies, you click the bottomless box, you click "take all". As a player, I would ask developers to consider one question - is it really important to you that players consider the importance of what they're carrying, forcing them to drop things they deem less important? If so, have a smaller number of more significant items so it's easier to sort through. If you want a zillion interactable objects, any one of which might be useful in some creative way, just give us an infinite inventory.

Maintaining an inventory in tabletop can be fun, but the thing about tabletop is that your characters likely aren't running around with a load of garbage in their inventory. There are a zillion things to pick up here and there's not really a good indication of what I need to keep around and what I don't. DOS 1 and 2 were somewhat infamous for having some combinations of items that were brilliant along with a ton of recipes for potions, food, scrolls, and equipment, some of which could be incredibly powerful, so I assume that's true here - but I don't know what's useful and what isn't. Should I carry around every single bloodstone I see? What if I find a recipe for something that needs bloodstones fifty hours into the game and I can't find any because I sold them all to a merchant I no longer have access to? Sure, I could send them to the camp traveler's box, but that fucking thing is even more of a nightmare to sort through.

My final point, and one that I've never seen brought up anywhere else but that I'd love to see discussed more often, is that grid inventories SUCK ASS. I'd love to say that as forcefully as possible in text. I love these games but for some reason all of them insist on using these fucking grids and I loathe it. Why is it a good idea to have players look at a ton of small icons, some of which aren't immediately all that distinguishable from another, and hover the mouse over every fucking one of them just to see what it is? Why is that just accepted as "this is the best we can do, deal with it?" I would point everyone who ever aspires to develop RPGs with a large inventory system to a mod for Skyrim called SkyUI, which I've brought up here before. It's a spreadsheet, a word which might scare everyone away, but just look at it. You click on the type of items you want to look at (armor, weapons, magic, miscellaneous) and you get a selection of values to sort by (name, weight, gold value, attack value, armor value, etc.) and from there you can look at whatever effects the item might have. Why can't we use this more often? Why can't I sort a spreadsheet of armor by type (light, medium, heavy) and then AC value and just see everything I need to right there?

Anyway, this got way longer than I intended it to be and is way more rant-y than I thought it would be, but yesterday I did stop playing the game and think about this for a little while.

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Justin258

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#10  Edited By Justin258

Just a fun tip for recruiting characters: you should have Wyll in your party when you go to find Karlach. It allows for some special dialogue.

Speaking with the dead and speaking with animals is extremely useful.

@justin258 said:

The camera and inventory management are my only complaints thus far. Like Divinity Original Sin 2, there's an incredible amount of loot and interactable objects in this game, but really that just serves to make me wonder if I should lug around this massive inventory of junk or if I should stop looting anything that isn't a chest or a dead high-level character. There's alchemy, there's crafting, is this unique locket that doesn't do anything but has a description just flavor or is it part of a quest? That sort of thing.

I finished Throne of Bhaal about a month ago for the first time so I feel like my memory's pretty fresh on all of the original games, but thus far I haven't come across anything where knowledge of what happens in the original games is all that important. That could absolutely change and I'm very curious to know how those stories link to this one.

The inventory system is pretty bad. Say what you will about games that have enemies drop items that have "sell this item" in the description, at least then I know that I can get rid of something. I'm pretty sure that quest items are highlighted in orange in the inventory screen, but I've also come across letters and documents that feel like they're telling me about a quest but aren't highlighted. Marking items as "wares" is the same thing as marking them as "junk" which can be quickly sold in bulk, but I had to look that up. I never saw a tutorial message about that the first time I talked to a merchant.

I never played the originals (I tried a few years ago but couldn't get into them), but GameSpot put up a 20 minute video about the story so far. It seems that this takes place 120ish years after the previous games and the more immediately relevant D&D story is the Descent to Avernus campaign.

I started playing the original games three years ago and just played them off and on until I finally finished them. I love them and I think they're great games, but I also spent a lot of time in wikis and forums trying to figure out how to play them and/or what I might be doing wrong. It's not always immediately obvious that an enemy is immune to something, for instance.

Divinity: Original Sin 2 also had a "mark as wares" option so I looked for that very early on.

You can also Shift + Click to highlight a selection of items and CTRL + Click to click on several items and just send all of those to wares. I didn't notice that quest items were highlighted orange, though!